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#4447411 - 11/07/18 03:40 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Minutes before dawn on June 22, the crash of thousands of guns reverberated all along the front as I kicked this thing off. I've had the game a week, but nothing like learning on the job eh?

In the end I did indeed replace Halder with Kluge. I then planned to replace whoever took Kluge's command of 4th Army with Model, but the game did it for me! That saved a few admin points which was nice. Even though I get 50 admin points per turn, I only started with 30, which precluded making any additional command changes as the remaining points would be needed for organizational changes at the Corps level. I discovered to my dismay that the 'Optimal General' thing I mentioned earlier means that if you try to install a general who is below optimal rank for the job it costs a big premium in admin points. Some of my most capable leaders with no command are Major Generals and to make them a corps commander will cost roughly 25 admin points. Men like Balck and Weiss I want to use, but the cost is prohibitive and I'll have to decide if it's worth it. Perhaps they will be given command automatically of newly formed units, or perhaps they will earn promotions so it's not an issue, but I doubt they will if they aren't fighting battles. We will see. But it bothers me to have better commanders cooling their heels while less capable men lead my glorious armies deep in to Russia.

I opened hostilities with a devastating assault from the air on the Red Air Force. It's nice to have Para Bellum's AAR as a reference, and I came up short of his massive haul. Still, we destroyed nearly 4000 Russian aircraft on the first turn, for a loss of only 70 of our own, which as silly as it sounds was more than I thought I would lose. My 'wonder bombers' in particular suffered. Still, it's a massive blow to the enemy, and the big gains I made on the first turn will bring a whole new set of enemy airfields within range as my airdromes follow the advance.

I don't have any screens to show at this time, but what happened for me was virtually identical to what you see in Para Bellum's first turn. Leeb's Army Group North (AGN) punched through and one panzer corps reached Riga, sealing it off. I didn't want to risk my armor on the streets of the city, so it will need to await the arrival of the infantry. A second panzer corps with Totenkopf attached was sent toward Polotsk to shield the right flank, while infantry formations clear western Lithuania and Latvia of the enemy trapped by the thrust to RIga.

Bock's Army Group Center (AGC) did essentially the same thing as shown in my Road to Minsk posts, and maybe even a little better too. The "Slonim Pocket" was closed tight trapping virtually the entire Western Front. Hoth's tanks reached the northern suburbs of Minsk and Guderian reached Slutsky to the south after a combined assault by the Luftwaffe and an infantry corps took the fortress at Brest-Litovsk. AGC is the most powerful of my Army Groups, most of my armor is concentrated here, and have gotten off to a great start.

Rundstedt's Army Group South (AGS) is the largest of the army groups, and suffers from an overload of the command capacity mechanic. The southern front also suffers from having the strongest enemy forces opposing them, as well as having a large portion of my forces frozen at the start. The Romanians, the Hungarians, and some of my mobile formations including what SS there is in the south are unavailable at the start. I did the same thing PB did and sent what little armor I have on a thrust behind Lvov, with the goal of meeting my allies once they wake up and trapping the southern front, cutting off Lvov. If successful, I can then wheel to the east and will look to cross the Dniepr river at Cherkassy. If this succeeds, I will then pivot them north and follow the right bank to cut off Kiev, while my allies march on Odessa. I'm sure the enemy will have something to say about all of this though.

I feel like the southern front is the most difficult to plan. It's the wildcard in this whole business. In the north and center I feel like the course of action is obvious, but the south is a blank canvas. I should have run the "Road to Kiev" scenario at least once.

In all we are off to a fantastic start, but that's not hard to do considering the forces available and the unpreparedness of the enemy. The true tests lie down the road. When you zoom out the map to the highest level you are struck by how constricted the front is (on a continental scale), but every mile you advance sees the territory to be won expand out, meaning the deeper we go the longer the front, and the more stretched our forces will become. And at some point the enemy will get it's sh!t together. My job is to try and ensure that doesn't happen. Supply problems and the coming winter will put an end to the massive gains we made in the first week. The key now is to go as far as possible before that happens.



No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
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#4447563 - 11/08/18 12:33 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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This first screen is air losses from the end of turn 1, after the Russian moves. A big haul, and interesting to look over I think. 3900 aircraft destroyed, including 3500 on the ground, at the cost of 70 for us. Our Ju-88s and Bf109s took moderate losses. Everything else came out in good shape.


[Linked Image]

Turn 2 (second week of the campaign) went well. In AGN's sector the two panzer corps moved on Pskov,, with one swinging out in a right hook to protect the flank. while infantry continued to clear out the area sealed off by these thrusts in western Latvia and Lithuania. One infantry corps invested Riga and made preparations for the assault next turn. My original timetable had Riga taken on turn 2, but while the infantry could have attacked, I feared it would have been costly and even have failed off the march. More infantry is following in the wake with the ultimate objective of Leningrad. That however is several weeks away. To the southeast infantry have crossed the Daugava and formed a bridgehead.

In AGS's sector Lvov was taken on turn 1, ahead of schedule and the armored thrust behind almost reached the static Romanians to close the pocket, but fell 20 miles short, leaving a small gap through which some enemy may have escaped. Resistance in this sector is lighter than I might have expected, and unless they are heavily reinforced my armor should be able to wheel to the east while the infantry clear the remnants in the Lvov pocket. It appears little blocks the way to the Dnepr. My original goal was to get across at Cherkassy at the earliest opportunity and at the moment it looks good. The Romanians will wake up next turn and march on Odessa, which will protect the right flank of the armored thrust on Cherkassy. Enemy in the Pripyat marshes cause me concern and I don't know how to deal with this, if I should clear it out, or just close it off and hope they melt away. Maybe I should use 2nd Army to clear it and continue on to Gomel. I had planned to reassign 2nd Army to AGN to ease the command burden on Bock, but perhaps they would be better used here, and then can shift them to the north later.

In AGC's sector things are suddenly not looking good. The Slonim pocket was eliminated, bagging a huge number of divisions, and Minsk was taken. One of Guderian's panzer corps reached the Dnepr at Zhlobin and another is almost in Mogilev. Hoth's tanks reached Orsha and the landbridge there. Crossings are planned at each site. Two problems. One, supplies are low, and while I think I can establish bridgeheads here, there won't be enough fuel to exploit any breakthroughs and pocket or capture Smolensk. My original timetable, based largely on Para Bellum's AAR, had Smolensk as a turn 3 target.

This shot is from PB's AAR, turn 3. He has taken Smolensk, and there is little in terms of enemy anywhere in the Vitebsk-Mogilev-Smolensk triangle. His screens are taken at the end of the turn, so it's difficult to know what enemy had stood on the Dnepr prior to his crossing. For this type of advance though, I suspect it wasn't a strong defense.

[Linked Image]

If this screenshot causes problems (slow loading due to being posted 7 years ago) or if it's bad form to repost someone else's screens I will change it to a link.

The second and much more serious problem for me is the Russian appears to be making a stand on the Dnepr. They have thrown a huge force in to the line. This is the end of turn 2 for me, Hoth's tanks (light green around Orsha) have run up against a strong force. guarding Vitebsk. The way to Smolensk though appears manageable, and perhaps could lead to pocketing the Vibtesk defenders. A seemingly golden opportunity, logistic troubles aside.

[Linked Image]

However......

[Linked Image]


This is the start of turn 3. Instead of pulling back, the Russian has thrown even more troops in to the line of the Dnepr and astride the landbridge. You can see how much stronger they have become during their turn, especially around Orsha (where you see my highlighted panzer divisions, the 20th and 7th). I didn't expect this at all, and I'm not sure how to deal with it. At the bottom center of this shot you can see Guderian's leading panzers at Zhlobin (light blue). They can get across the river unopposed, and could move on Smolensk, possibly compelling the Russian to abandon the river. But these formations are low on fuel. I can establish a bridgehead here, but not much more on turn 3.

I could also try to trap the defenders between Orsha and Vitebsk. Hoth's other panzer corps is sitting east of Borisov and could move north to attempt to envelop Vitebsk, but terrain is unfavorable and would require two crossings of the Dvina. Their supply situation is better, but this move could leave them in jeopardy of being cut off. Without them, I have no northern pincer to trap these Russian formations as AGN's panzers have already arrowed northeast toward Pskov..

In all, this enemy stand has completely thrown my plans in the center to the wind. What I think I need to do is form my bridgeheads and wait for the infantry to catch up, allowing the panzer corps to replenish their supplies for the push on Smolensk. Once the infantry is in place on the west bank of the Dnepr and against the enemy guarding the landbridge I can attempt to seal them off with armor. There are very powerful Russian formations in this area. If I could pocket them it would mean a huge haul and cause the enemy major losses, and possibly deny him the troops he might have otherwise used to defend in front of Moscow (wishful thinking!). It's possible if I can punch through at Orsha, I could send both of Hoth's corps around in a left hook to complete the encirclement with a single thrust of two corps and avoid the unfavorable route over the Dvina. All of this will require an infantry anvil and has put a serious brake on my plans. I wanted to be approaching Moscow in September at the latest. Now it looks optimistic. The only silver lining I can see is these may be the troops I would have run in to on the approaches to Moscow. So if I can eliminate them between Orsha and Vitebsk, it may make the next leap far easier. One can hope.

I know this game has gone through many revisions, many patches over the past 7 years. But I am surprised at the difference between my run and what PB experienced. I don't see how he could have eliminated this mass of enemy and still been able to capture Smolensk in three turns. Surely he met little resistance here. Or maybe I'm just bad at this smile



Attached Files AirT1.jpgSmolenskEndT2.jpgSmolenskST1.jpg
Last edited by DBond; 11/08/18 05:30 PM.

No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4447623 - 11/08/18 06:37 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Keep the AAR reports coming DBond, just as detailed as always.
This looks very similar to my old board game "Russian Front" (that I never played to end due to scale and time needed).
And it's old too, 8 years you say?

While it looks overly complicated I think I've learned a thing or two just reading these pages.

Short nubbery questions:
What are the numbers on the counters representing?
The brownish hexes, are they somekind of fog or war (despite one can see units deep inside) or just "not touched by axis units or their ZoC"?
Can/will units make a "response move" if you move twice in their ZoC?
Are there paratroop moves with airunits (Red Army only I guess if so)?
Do you have option to make "strategic moves" along the railway inside safe hexes?
Weather, will you suffer in rain/mud/snow?


I'll go read PB's thread for a while I think.

I also need to go watch some "lets play" videos I guess smile

#4447634 - 11/08/18 07:41 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Oden old chum, thanks for the questions. How's things?

Yes, game was released in 2010, but it has undergone many changes, so much so that I feel like the version PB played in 2011 and the one I am playing now are quite different.

I know you know your NATO symbology, so know what denotes an army, a corps, a division, a brigade, etc. The numbers on the bottom of the counters are Combat Value (CV) - Movement Points (MP). So using the 20th Panzer Division in the last screenshot as an example it shows 20-10. Combat Value is a complicated formula that factors in just about everything you can imagine, including morale, experience, weaponry, command, terrain, supplies, attached support and on and on, and then is rounded down by 1000 to result in the number you see here. It's rather an approximation of that unit's ability to attack and take ground. There is a separate defensive CV that does not display on the counter.

Movement points are just what you'd expect, and is another formula that determines it based on unit type, supply and fuel situation and so on.

The brownish hexes are enemy territory, and can be toggled on and off. There is a FOW option, but I have it off for this run.

If by response move you mean will they displace, or attack/interdict your movement the answer is no with the exception of HQ units and airfields that will automatically displace when you move adjacent (and you have a chance of capturing some of their supplies)

I have no experience yet with airborne units so no idea really.

Movement by rail is possible yes, and necessary of course when new units are formed in Germany (but I have yet to see this). I have yet to use the railways, but if I choose to move 2nd Army to AGN I will get a little practice with it I suppose. Using the rails to move troops comes at the expense of supplies, so it's a balancing act. Supply/logistics is the single most important thing for German success in this campaign I would reckon, so I guess it's best to keep troop movements by rail to a minimum.

Quote
Weather, will you suffer in rain/mud/snow?


Oh good Lord yes. Mud in October, then a short freeze to renew operations, then the blizzards in December. Then the mud comes again in the spring before the campaigning season arrives. If you read PB's AAR he shows this in great detail. There is a random setting, but I have gone with historical for my first run.




No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4447642 - 11/08/18 08:49 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks, and yes I think I got many of my questions settled from this tutorial too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LW8YC4KJ0Q

This is huge in details, maybe a tad bit too much for me but I will read every single post you make here until you win the war (you are going to win, right? smile )

We (SimHQ) believe in you DBond, you can do this!
biggrin

#4447645 - 11/08/18 09:09 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks. After turn 1 I would have said, yes I will win. But then turn 2 happened.... biggrin

The game is pricey, but evidently Matrix has a winter/Christmas sale every year which should start soon. Too bad if you don't think you'd enjoy it. I could really use some perspectives from other players. I'm 8 years late to the party and few are interested. Like I'd love to know how another German player dealt with the Pripyat marshes for example.

I haven't watched your video, but I will say it's possible to play the game with an insane amount of micro, or you could play like me, thinking strategically and pushing counters around, but letting the computer handle all of the minutiae. I red this the other day and wanted to stick a fork in my brain. While this surely leads to better play, it's not necessary to play like that, against the AI anyway. A wide range of settings means you can tailor the difficulty, I 'm playing on the default normal settings.

So while I could use a partner in crime, especially you (since we are alike in many ways), I understand if you give it a a pass.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4447658 - 11/08/18 10:36 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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It sure looks interesting but i'm used to corps and army level from my board game along with bigger hexes (some 45 miles iirc) so all these brigade and even regiment units scares me a little smile
The price isn't really an issue but I'm split between this and HOI 4 and just can't make up my mind.
Maybe i should buy both of them but I need time, lot of time to consume games this size - now that both kids moved out I do have more time so ya, maybe I should go for it.


edit:
Btw, Pripet marsh is a no go zone even in my old board game - only russian cavalry goes there smile

Last edited by theOden; 11/08/18 10:40 PM.
#4447663 - 11/08/18 11:05 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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That's a tough choice, and I've had HOI 4 on my wishlist for a long time, but I never pulled the trigger since my impression is the AI doesn't give a proper fight, they don't act logically/correctly. That may have changed, I dunno.

As to time invested, as mentioned I've had the game for a week and although I am clearly still a novice, it was enough to at least give me the basics to launch a grand campaign. But I am not sure I really know enough to do well. That said, it takes this sort of practical experience to help me understand. I'm better doing it and then filling in the blanks with study, than to learn it all first before attempting the big scenarios. And there is plenty to do short of a grand campaign. As you might have seen, I played the 3-turn Road to Minsk scenario five times and then felt semi-prepared to invade Russia along the entire front. My lack of mastery over the logistical side of things I think will prove my undoing, and the signs are already showing along the Dnepr west of Smolensk smile

Lastly, scale is scale. When games are of a similar nature, then the difference between an army or a corps versus a division or regiment is simply numbers on a counter. The concepts are the same more or less. I say this now, but I avoided games like this a long, long time. But now that I've jumped in I see that I shouldn't have been worried.

And yes, about the Russian cav. But I don't have Russian cav of course smile I will need a different solution otherwise I will have a game-long threat to the Brest-Minsk rail line, and that isn't good at all. I need to know what would happen if I were to pocket the marshes. What happens to the forces inside when all directions are cut? I'd rather not have a corps cut to pieces trying to eject Ivan from there.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4447696 - 11/09/18 01:14 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond

That said, it takes this sort of practical experience to help me understand. I'm better doing it and then filling in the blanks with study, than to learn it all first before attempting the big scenarios.


As I have proved already biggrin

I sat down tonight to continue, and found that all of my panzer corps in AGN and AGC are more or less out of gas. But this is why I just jump in and give it a go. I was going to add to one of the above posts that this run is probably going to be short, as with most games I often do a short run, learn from it, identify my mistakes and see what I would have done differently with this additional knowledge, then start anew and go from there. I will need to do so again I am afraid. I waste too much fuel. For starters, I have been moving my airbases forward. Uses fuel. I have a good deal of support units attached to my panzers. More fuel. I have moved all of my headquarters forward. More fuel.

I'm not sure where are the best places to build rail lines, and if I should switch a FDB to a different artery, so that two are working on the same one. Not sure how that might work since they need to be adjacent to a repaired rail hex. But I'm sure I've seen players advocate this. Maybe a second FDB can start working next to a hex that is going to flip next turn (yellow)? The line to Riga and then east along the Baltic toward Leningrad is obvious. Another line from Brest-Litovsk to Minsk and then Smolensk also seems obvious. The rest I just don't know. Simply starting them going from their first-turn locations may not be the best way to go about it. Further, I'm not taking full advantage of my HQ's ability to send construction battalions. I'm sure there's a strategy here as well. My railheads are just too far behind the center thrust.

I have saved each turn, so I think some more logistical training is in order, and then maybe I can go back one turn and do things a little differently. I sure would love to force the Dnepr on turn 2. If I can get two FDBs on the Brest-Minsk line that would likely solve the issue I ran in to here.

Maybe I should try the Road to Smolensk scenario. It gives you 10 turns to win, and I'm sitting here at the Dnepr on turn 3. Maybe I am expecting too much. Maybe I just need to sit tight and let the rails and infantry catch up and that my progress is good. I have little reference for milestones. Aside from PB capturing Smolensk at the same point I am stuck at the river out of fuel biggrin

Time to crack the manual again I think.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4447722 - 11/09/18 04:10 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Ya know how I mentioned earlier in the thread how I intended to learn the game in modules? Well, my first go at the grand campaign revealed some of my flaws. So tonight instead of playing I researched two more things. More optimum rail repair route strategies, and support units. If I can improve these it will make a big difference.

I said in the last post that the Brest-Litovsk rail line seemed obvious, but it isn't, I don't think. It's not only too long to build, but vulnerable to those Russian units I don't know how to deal with in the Pipyat marshes. Since the Baltic region gets the rail repair bonus. I think it would make more sense to build two up there. One to go Riga-Pskov as expected, but a second to work it's way to Polotsk and then turns south to Vitebsk. So it ends up near the landbridge anyway, like the Brest-Misnk line would eventually, but does so much faster. I gotta try that, it makes sense. Since I wouldn't be building the Brest line now, that FDB can be sent south to Romania to help with the push through the Ukraine. It's slow building down there, so another FDB would be useful. You really need lines going to Rostov, Kursk, Kiev et al, so it should pay off I would think.

And then I had another thought. What if instead of making my panzer corp push to Smolensk through Minsk, that I instead sent Hoth's panzergruppe to the north, to pave the way for the Polotsk-Vitebsk rail line. This would outflank the concentration I saw in the first run south of Vitebsk, and it would be better supported by the rail line. Hmmm Or will the AI react to the new axis? I could still send Guderian toward Mogilev to maybe feint that attack, compel the river defense and then hook him across the river near Zhlobin and either to pinch Smolensk from the south, or turn him south (as was done historically) through Gomel and behind Kiev. Hmmm

Strategery!

The second thing I concentrated on was support units. Honestly I wasn't prepared for this sort of micro. I chose to let the AI handle it. But, this is the sort of thing that separates advanced players. I had noticed how my panzer corps were bogged down with support units that they don't need. My combat units don't need to have construction battalions attached for example. They're never in the same place long enough to do anything (or even near a repaired rail hex), and the range at which they can do their duty is dictated by command radius. So I want to assign them all to my Army Group HQs ( and armies I suppose), who can be placed in major hubs and let the ants do their work. Other examples are giving my infantry, or motorized units StuG battalions so they have some anti-armor and long range firepower. Heavy artillery can go with the units making assaults. I don't need them attached to my armor. Pioneers can go with the assaulting infantry and maybe even attach some to the panzer corps. Seems contradictory at first glance, but panzers will have to attack sometimes, and will have to attack across rivers, so some attached pioneers could make a big difference. If I'm assaulting Sevastopol I want Thor and Karl there. Instead of fixed or towed AA units, I can ensure that the panzer units only get the motorized AA. Or add some nebelwerfers as corps reserve where I expect the toughest fights.The scope here, the level of customization is enormous.

Leaving it all to the AI could work out great in some situations, and horribly in others. There's too much left to chance. The main drawbacks are that it's a lot more micro, and costs Admin points, so it's something you'll be doing each turn for a while until you get everything where you want it. And you can add additional time for figuring out in the first place where you actually want or need these support units the most. Even though I said that you can play by using your head and moving counters around, I'm beginning to see that if I want to be a good player I'll need to move beyond that and get my hands dirty. It will make my units more efficient with supply and combat, allowing them to move farther, and fight better and avoiding the drag that units in the wrong places cause.

Perhaps I've been recommending this game too freely, that it's something that anyone would enjoy, regardless of how involved they'd care to be. But maybe that's bad advice.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4447733 - 11/09/18 05:48 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Dbond,
You are always an excellent read. I see that War in the West will play on XP SP3 (sorry, I have 0 interest in the Ost ). Your thread has sparked my interest. The micro manage and continuing development of troops from success/failure is what I enjoy.

Since you made the thread topic as East and West, I have a few questions before serious consideration of purchasing.

* Is an internet connection required to play single player? Been there, done that. The publisher / developer does not need to know when I play the game.

* Are Matrix games download only? My internet is roughly the speed of dial up and crashes my computer often, so waiting and paying for a hard copy is preferable. They show 33 hours to download at 56K, and with crashes, it will take 6 months if ever.

* Is STEAM required? I have no desire to join STEAM. This would be a deal breaker.

* I see Matrix has an expansion pack of Torch for War in the West. Does Matrix ever do bundle packages? I prefer the British in Africa ( my proffered theater ) , but Torch is close enough. You mentioned that Matrix does holiday sales.

* Is a second retail version required to play PBEM with a friend? I assume yes. Can you play against another human in real time via the internet?

* Can you play against another human in real time via the internet?

On a General note, what is SimHQ's opinion of War between the States? It is cheaper and probably runs better on an older computer. I have a suspicion that it has the grand strategy rewards that I see in Dbond's threads.

Sorry for so many questions, but you have sparked my interest in this product line. I cut my computer teeth on Steel Panthers I-III


TPA who TWI
"The 10th Amendment simply says that any powers that aren’t mentioned in the Constitution as belonging to the government belong to the states themselves."
#4447740 - 11/09/18 07:37 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
..
And then I had another thought. What if instead of making my panzer corp push to Smolensk through Minsk, that I instead sent Hoth's panzergruppe to the north, to pave the way for the Polotsk-Vitebsk rail line. This would outflank the concentration I saw in the first run south of Vitebsk, and it would be better supported by the rail line. Hmmm Or will the AI react to the new axis? I could still send Guderian toward Mogilev to maybe feint that attack, compel the river defense and then hook him across the river near Zhlobin and either to pinch Smolensk from the south, or turn him south (as was done historically) through Gomel and behind Kiev. Hmmm

Strategery!
..


YES!
This is the stuff I like, see a need and create a solution and try to assess the risks in the midst of the grand target of reaching Leningrad (used to be Sweden, just saying), Moscow and Stalingrad.

I hear you on the HOI4, been watching hours and hours of lets plays and think you have a good point regarding the AI.

As a vivid Steam "hater" I also look forward to the questions above by Aldo

But I do have 1000 mbit line here so if I need to create somekind if account anyway for them to spy on I can just as well let it be on steam to begin with.
I hate it but I use it but for the love of God - can the prodcers of today just give up with the current account mayhem on every.frigging.title.released? ohffs I hate accounts so frigging much

#4447741 - 11/09/18 07:52 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  

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Originally Posted by Brit44 'Aldo'
Dbond,
Since you made the thread topic as East and West, I have a few questions before serious consideration of purchasing.

* Is an internet connection required to play single player? Been there, done that. The publisher / developer does not need to know when I play the game.

* Are Matrix games download only? My internet is roughly the speed of dial up and crashes my computer often, so waiting and paying for a hard copy is preferable. They show 33 hours to download at 56K, and with crashes, it will take 6 months if ever.

* Is STEAM required? I have no desire to join STEAM. This would be a deal breaker.

* I see Matrix has an expansion pack of Torch for War in the West. Does Matrix ever do bundle packages? I prefer the British in Africa ( my proffered theater ) , but Torch is close enough. You mentioned that Matrix does holiday sales.



I can answer some of these questions.

Internet connection is not required, Steam is also not required. Matrix games are basically drm free games. You download the installer, install and play. Matrix also provides a Steam key for some of their games (like for War in the West). So you actually get 2 copies, one drm free and a Steam one. That's pretty cool. Matrix used to sell physical copies but i think they switched to digital delivery only. Maybe someone else with better connection could download it for you and put it on a pendrive.

edit: i see that War in the West actually can be purchased as a hard copy.

In less than a month Holiday sale should start. Usually it lasts till the end of the year. War in the West should be much cheaper then (around 50% off like last year). The DLC also should be cheaper.
IMHO Matrix is an awsome publisher/developer. If you're into wargaming, they have the best offer for PC players. I bought many games in past 8 - 9 years from them and surely will buy many more.

Last edited by USSCheyenne; 11/09/18 07:55 AM.
#4447758 - 11/09/18 01:53 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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Originally Posted by Brit44 'Aldo'


I cut my computer teeth on Steel Panthers I-III


As did I, I might even have mentioned that earlier in this thread?

Hopefully, Cheyenne's post answers some of your questions, as being new to Matrix I don't have the answers. There is no real-time head to head though (unless I'm wrong lol) And again I am not certain, but yes I would say that each PBEM player needs a copy. War in the West is what I was first interested in of course, but I ended up starting with War in the East. I'm equally interested in each theater, so it works for me, plus WitE is about $20 cheaper I believe. I took a look and last year's holiday sale ran from November 22 through January 7. War in the West was marked down to $29.99! It's normally 79.99 so that is a huge savings. And of course you could look for Steam sales too. But if you want a hard copy the Matrix sale should be perfect. Matter of fact I will also grab WitW at that price! There is also some DLC introducing some alternative campaigns (Don to the Danube for example) and scenarios that I will pick up as well.

Quote
YES!
This is the stuff I like, see a need and create a solution and try to assess the risks in the midst of the grand target of reaching Leningrad (used to be Sweden, just saying), Moscow and Stalingrad.


Then I suspect this game would be right up your alley. Actually I know it is, but the question I think becomes if you want to invest the time. My thinking was that with winter coming I wanted a serious game that I could dive in to, that would challenge me and be one that took time to master. It's exactly that and I'm very glad I decided to give it a go, I can always recognize the finest games by how much I think about them when I am not playing, ya know? Sitting at work but thinking about how I am going to breach a certain river or how I will take Kiev. That's when I know it has it's hooks in me. Selfishly I hope that each of you get in to it so that I can blab about it more on the internet smile


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4447783 - 11/09/18 04:31 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden

But I do have 1000 mbit line here so if I need to create somekind if account anyway for them to spy on I can just as well let it be on steam to begin with.
I hate it but I use it but for the love of God - can the prodcers of today just give up with the current account mayhem on every.frigging.title.released? ohffs I hate accounts so frigging much


Another plus! All I needed was a key, and then could download and install. I didn't need to register anywhere.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4447792 - 11/09/18 06:31 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Happy Birthday old man smile

#4447798 - 11/09/18 07:01 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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LEGE
Sorry to just jump in here, just trying to help out...

Matrix Games are DRM free so no they don´t track your gameplay or what ever. If you buy from them, you also get a Steam key, so it´s your choice of platform to play on once you buy from them. You can even have two different copies on your HDD as each platform uses a different S/N. All Matrix games come with a launcher, with which you have the option to check for updates with the mentioned launcher. It then connects to the Matrix net and checks for updates. Matrix Games also offers physical copies on CD/DVD which also come with a hard cover or soft copy of the manual, and a download option. But you have to consider were you live as shipping and customs might be expensive for the physical editions.

War in the West has more air warfare so that might be a plus for some.

Here´s a look at the awesome hardcover manual for WitW...



Even if you do decide to just buy the download edition now, you can always buy the physical edition later for a additional cost.

Either way, Matrix Games has a great customer support, so they will be more then happy to help you out with any doubts you can have.

Red


Win10 Pro(x64), i7 8700k @ 4.7Ghz, 32GB ram DDR4, Sapphire Pulse AMD RX 6700 12GB, M.2 PCIe NVMe (x2) 480GB + 960GB, 447GB SSD´s, Samsung G6 32" , Logitech G13, G502, Warthog HOTAS, CH Pedals, Simagic Alpha Mini, and Formula Extreme FX, DC Simracing DC1 pedals, GT Omega ART cockpit, TrackIR 5.0.
AUDIO: Aiyima A07 Max, Topping E50 and L50 stack, Polk Audio Signature Elite ES20 , and Shennheiser HD 560s. DAP: Hiby R3, Hiby Seeds, and iBasso IT01, Sharp MD-MT 80H Minidisc.
#4447822 - 11/09/18 10:12 PM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks Oden smile

Good info Red, thanks.

I kicked off another grand campaign, since I had the day off. My birthday and all you see. I spent hours just setting it up. Burned up most of my admin points reorganizing (mostly reattaching the construction battalions to Army Group HQs, but also getting infantry divisions out of panzer corps, and I seem to be obsessed with making Kluge OKH, so that eats up a few more. There's so much to dig in to.

I still want to send at least part of Hoth's panzergruppe toward Vitebsk to clear the way for the new rail line, but I'm not sure if I can close the Slonim pocket without them, so we'll see. If I don't charge all out to reach Minsk in the first turn I can do it I think. Since this is no longer my only panzer axis in AGC I think I can give up the rush to the Dnepr, since I found out last run that I really will need infantry there anyway, so no need to rush. It doesn't make sense to use my armor to punch through. But if Hoth can loop through Vitebsk and Guderian can get across near Zhlobin I can have a big envelopment behind the river. So I'll go for smaller solutions until the infantry can get there I think. Lots of fun making plans smile

Now if only I can get my logistics in order.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4447857 - 11/10/18 06:22 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  
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Happy belated birthday, D!

#4447869 - 11/10/18 07:57 AM Re: Gary Grigsby's War in the West AND East [Re: DBond]  

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Oh, didn't notice. Happy B-Day DBond! Many succeses on the Eastern Front attack

Just to show again why i like Matrix, i just got a coupon from them. 31% off the next purchase for being with Matrix for 9 years. These coupons can be used on already discounted games during holiday sales. That's pretty sweet deal! Will definitely pick 2-3 wargames this year.

So i encourage you Dbond to create an accout on their store, maybe get something this year also. They have the best wargames for PC players, really huge catalog of great games.

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