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#4445633 - 10/27/18 12:51 AM Opinions needed for next graphics card.  
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OvStachel Offline
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Hi fellas...
I'm considering replacing my 1050Ti with a Radeon 500 series. Reason being the Acer monitor I bought has serious ghosting issues, which I WILL be replacing and I wanted to take advantage of the free-synch that almost every cheaper TN monitor has. Everything G-synch is over 500 USD!!

Since I'm replacing the monitor, might as well do it right and get it on the same page as the card.

Instead of shelling out 700 on just a monitor, I was thinking I can get away with about 600 for a solid monitor and an equivalent if not better card than what I have.

I have never owned an AMD, so I am not familiar with what the 1050Ti would be equivalent to.

So hit me with some opinions on AMD, best bang for buck card and if it's worth doing. Like I said, the 1050Ti is fine, works great, but other than V-synch, I have no other option.

Thanks as always!

OvS


The Black Baron of Boistrancourt returns!!

I'd rather die fighting, than live for nothing. - Gen. G.S. Patton
#4445636 - 10/27/18 01:15 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Just remember, if you go with AMD, you might not be able to play WOFF & WOTR until / if AMD ever "fixes" their video drivers to allow you to play the two games.

If you have been reading the WOFF / WOTR threads, you will notice that the AMD drivers no longer support WOFF or WOTR in their current form.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4445642 - 10/27/18 02:58 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Panama Red]  
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
Just remember, if you go with AMD, you might not be able to play WOFF & WOTR until / if AMD ever "fixes" their video drivers to allow you to play the two games.

If you have been reading the WOFF / WOTR threads, you will notice that the AMD drivers no longer support WOFF or WOTR in their current form.


And AMD is not a recommended go to as per the devs.


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
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Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4445655 - 10/27/18 04:57 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Well that's good. I just saved money. Definitely NOT loosing a favorite game (and one I helped make LOL!) over a graphics card.

Poo-poo on AMD... I'll just buy a new monitor.

Thanks!


The Black Baron of Boistrancourt returns!!

I'd rather die fighting, than live for nothing. - Gen. G.S. Patton
#4445669 - 10/27/18 08:56 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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I did run an AMD HD7970 and if compare this to my actual GTX1080, it did do a great job in running WoFF.
If hunting for an AMD RX500 card, wait for the new RX590, if wanting to get an much better card then your actual 1050ti. The DirectX9 problems guess here are we talking about are solved by AMD, so nothing holts your back.

Only in your case I would not go for the Vcard, but spent it in the Gsync monitor and if being a Nvidia guy also more future prove.

#4445710 - 10/27/18 03:53 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Maybe skip the freesync or gsync and sve more cash for a decent GPU. Things run great without it 144 mhz or whatever wink. Maybe get a monitor that does 75mhz and then run vsync on that with a decent Nvidia graphics card (depends on budget).

I got a 34" Acer 3440 x 1440 that does 75mhz but there are some great 28" or 32" monitors depending on budget.

Last edited by Polovski; 10/27/18 03:56 PM.

Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4445831 - 10/28/18 12:21 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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anybody have any experience with the new very widescreen gaming monitors ?
https://www.samsung.com/levant/monitors/c49hg90/


We will remember them.
#4445899 - 10/28/18 08:01 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Just passing on my experience - running a Radeon RX 470 4GB and it runs both WOFF and Wings Over the Reich excellently (paired with an I3-7100 cpu ) - so Idk if u need to believe the AMD problem myth - at least it hasn't shown to be true in my case - all works really well smile

#4445906 - 10/28/18 09:26 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Redwolf:
How old are your AMD drivers ???

It has been the current AMD drivers from the past several months that have not worked with WOFF and WOTR.

As a result anybody wanting to have the most recent AMD drivers to play other current games are having to make a choice between using older AMD drivers to play WOFF and WOTR or newer drivers to play newer games, but not both.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4446141 - 10/30/18 05:48 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Panama Red]  
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
Redwolf:
How old are your AMD drivers ???

It has been the current AMD drivers from the past several months that have not worked with WOFF and WOTR.

As a result anybody wanting to have the most recent AMD drivers to play other current games are having to make a choice between using older AMD drivers to play WOFF and WOTR or newer drivers to play newer games, but not both.


18.5.1 -- never ever had any sort of problem whatsoever (except a Windows 10 update took away the ability to use sweetfx with it)...otherwise everything is fine and dandy. smile

#4446163 - 10/30/18 12:11 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Shredward]  
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Shredward,

Re widescreen monitors. This is what I bought.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06ZZDYVQM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It wasn't cheap--$848.40, but I'd do it again in a second.

I had shelled out about as much for an Nvidia 1080ti, which runs fast. At the time, I wasn't up on things like gsync and freescync. So I had this expensive gsync card that was not working to its full potential. I was running at 1900 with 60fps. With the new monitor, same card, I'm running at 3400 and 120 fps. I could have gotten a non-curved screen that would take me even higher to true 4k, and 144 fps, but I've had a curved monitor for a few years and had gotten used to it.

I LOVE THIS MONITOR!!!! It's huge! When I fly, with TrackIR, it's amazing. Talk about immersive. I suppose a VR headset would be more immersive, but then I couldn't use the keyboard or check my email on my phone. There is an overclock function on the monitor that isn't really an overclock function. It's just a setting you use if you have a gsync monitor. It kicks up the FPS from 90 to 120.

I should add that some other games that are set up to use really wide screens also look super. I've started playing Total War: Rome II again, and the battles are spectacular.

It's also great for working with multiple screens open, which I often do when I work. You can have two 16" wide screens open at the same time. At that size, their not "windows," they're full screens. So that's great, too.

The only issue I had involved juice. I work from home and have everything on an uninterrupted power supply, because we get frequent short power outages here in Florida when it gets hot. My old APC unit couldn't handle the draw when the gsync ship kicked in on the monitor. I had to upgrade my APC unit. More money!

But the bottom line is that I consider it all money well spent. The monitor is amazing. WOFF is amazing "on the big screen." The other games that can use a widescreen are amazing. I know it wasn't cheap, but at least now I'm getting the full benefit from my 1080ti, which I wasn't before.

I am very happy with my 35" Predator. And, as I said, the combination of the curve and TrackIr is super!!!!

Nowi

Attached Files dawnsun.jpg
Last edited by Nowi; 10/30/18 01:29 PM.

Nowi
#4446168 - 10/30/18 12:36 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Redwolf:
You just confirmed what the other AMD users are saying, older drivers work, not newer drivers for WOFF & WOTR.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4446189 - 10/30/18 04:23 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Panama Red]  
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
Redwolf:
You just confirmed what the other AMD users are saying, older drivers work, not newer drivers for WOFF & WOTR.


Confirming they work with older drivers (18.5.1) I guess, yes. Haven't had the need to update to 18.10 as all my games work well (newer'ish and the WOFF/WOTR) - guess I should be very wary of upgrading them. IDK, I thought I might have got lucky with my particular card architecture. Anyways, no point in updating to the very latest driver as there is no need to for me - though i just read a report of an RX 480 running 18.10.2 with WOFF just fine (so it could possibly be the 500+ series with the problems(?)).


Last edited by Redwolf; 10/30/18 04:34 PM.
#4448408 - 11/13/18 04:53 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Looking to upgrade on the new AMD 590, surely the latest drivers are needed for it to work but if they do not allow WOFF to run it's a damned shame.
What exactly is the problem here?
Usually games run even if they aren't supported anymore by drivers.


"Das Fliegen ist das Leben wert!"
#4448422 - 11/13/18 07:39 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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I've been running WOFF UE on an AMD 560 with no problems. In a few days I'll let you know how it runs on my new 580.


Some people are born stupid. I've had to work hard my whole life to get this way. I'm proud of the job I've done
#4449245 - 11/17/18 10:40 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Thanks.
By now I consider a 1060 because the power consumption of the 590 cards is just beyond bad. Yea it beats the 1060 often(but not always) but fancy custom cards like the Saphire 590 Nitro+, that maximize what you can get out of a 590, suck 232 watt while the 1060 may be below 130. I'm just not sure I want my old crate(from 2012) to handle this nasty heater just for a few frames more compared to a 1060. The whole system would run a lot hotter, what is not good as the past year showed, and with that also a lot louder. And finally then looking at the overall FUBAR price levels that came with the mining boom every dime spend now seems a waste as the market is still in correction to that boom.
So a 1060, even if not kept for long, may be a good solution for now in the hope that more interesting stuff comes in 2019.


"Das Fliegen ist das Leben wert!"
#4449280 - 11/18/18 09:45 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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You know there are different versions on that 1060series: 3gb, 5gb and 6gb Vram. An High and low memory speed versions, while even a complete new 1060 seems to berelased as an answer to the RX590.
Now with the prices are dropped because of the RTX20X0 series and black friday is starting to begin, think the GTX1070 does come very close to your budget and will silence everbody on which Vcard is better.

Before buying any Vcard it is indeed wise to know if the PSU can handle your new card.
Check the website of your PSU brand and use the PSU calculator and to be sure, do also a calculation on a neutral site like a simple one from:
https://images10.newegg.com/BizIntell/tool/psucalc/index.html
or an more complex:
https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator

#4449374 - 11/18/18 11:16 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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BTW can someone point out what exactly is the problem with AMD cards?
Are the games just not supported anymore by the drivers or is it a deeper problem?


"Das Fliegen ist das Leben wert!"
#4449413 - 11/19/18 07:15 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Some AMD graphics cards (e.g. Radeon HD series) with the latest drivers refuse to run WOFF (CFS3) properly. It shows black screen only.

#4449481 - 11/19/18 05:53 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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And the same we see as one guy can not run a GTX1050ti while a other can run it without any problems. I know some drivers did have problems, same as some drivers from Nvidia.
I did run HD4890 and HD7970 from 2009 until 2016, played OFF3 until WoFF3, RoF, Clod, BoS and even CFS3, without any problems.

#4449508 - 11/19/18 08:50 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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I am talking about AMD drivers dated March 2017 and newer. Personally tested on Radeon HD7870 and confirmed by other Radeon HD users.

#4449563 - 11/20/18 05:04 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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One son is using the my old HD4890 and one son the HD7970, both playing warfront simulation games always from Steam sale and they are not the most modern games, I bet all DirectX9 maybe even DX8 and I never hear they have problems in playing any of these games after an Vcard update by MS Windows, which is generated automatic because of safety.
Most problems are what I think caused by wrong installation, not doing a clean install, or even the wrong driver is selected.

edit: Yep one problem because windows was installing the iGPU driver and not the external.

Last edited by dutch; 11/20/18 05:06 AM.
#4449566 - 11/20/18 05:37 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: dutch]  
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Originally Posted by dutch
One son is using the my old HD4890 and one son the HD7970, both playing warfront simulation games always from Steam sale and they are not the most modern games, I bet all DirectX9 maybe even DX8 and I never hear they have problems in playing any of these games after an Vcard update by MS Windows, which is generated automatic because of safety.
Most problems are what I think caused by wrong installation, not doing a clean install, or even the wrong driver is selected.

edit: Yep one problem because windows was installing the iGPU driver and not the external.

Let them try WOFF UE and then report. I am talking only about combo WOFF UE + Radeon HD cards + new graphics drivers.

#4449623 - 11/20/18 02:08 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: JJJ65]  
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
Originally Posted by dutch
One son is using the my old HD4890 and one son the HD7970, both playing warfront simulation games always from Steam sale and they are not the most modern games, I bet all DirectX9 maybe even DX8 and I never hear they have problems in playing any of these games after an Vcard update by MS Windows, which is generated automatic because of safety.
Most problems are what I think caused by wrong installation, not doing a clean install, or even the wrong driver is selected.

edit: Yep one problem because windows was installing the iGPU driver and not the external.

Let them try WOFF UE and then report. I am talking only about combo WOFF UE + Radeon HD cards + new graphics drivers.


Pretty sure that BirdDogICT identified, quite some time ago, that he was using the drivers you indicate and wasn't having this problem:

http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.p...und-after-starting-a-mission#Post4394806

In fact, he reported using two different drivers, both from late 2017, without problems. He reported meeting all the conditions you list, and says his runs fine. And I think there are others, too - I haven't looked. But even if not, the one instance is all that's required to disprove the theory. Unless I'm missing something (always possible).


Last edited by kksnowbear; 11/20/18 02:09 PM.
#4449671 - 11/20/18 07:16 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Read this and this posts.
But, anyway, it is everyones free decision. Just do not tell me I did not warn you.

Last edited by JJJ65; 11/20/18 07:22 PM.
#4449672 - 11/20/18 07:20 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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I already read that thread, thanks - it's the exact same one I linked above. And as far as I can see, there's nothing in that thread that contradicts what I said. BirdDogICT said he's using drivers after the date you gave, on a Radeon HD card, and running WOFF UE without problems. He says he updated, too and that worked as well. I don't find anything he's posted since to change that.


"FWIW, I'm running with 17.11.3 drivers and not experiencing any problems."

"JJJ65, after reading your post, I updated to 17.12.1, and am not having any problems. Go figure."


Perhaps you should read the thread. Are you seeing something I'm not?

Last edited by kksnowbear; 11/20/18 07:23 PM.
#4449673 - 11/20/18 07:24 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Just continue reading next posts wink

Quote
You, Sir, are a scholar and a saint! The old drivers did the trick! Now I can spend the holidays furiously installing drivers to see how current I can get before it breaks again.

A big Thank you to all for your help!

Quote
Well, that went quicker than expected. 17.5.2 is the most current driver that works for me. thumbsup


#4449674 - 11/20/18 07:26 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Yes, I've already read those too - and the point remains: If there's even one case where someone is able to do it without a problem, then the theory that the driver is causing the problem is simply invalid. If the driver (alone) was solely what's causing the issue, then no one would be able to use the driver without the problem.

EDIT: One person saying they had to revert drivers doesn't prove that the driver alone is the problem. However, one person saying it works does prove it absolutely cannot be the driver alone causing the problem.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 11/20/18 07:29 PM.
#4449675 - 11/20/18 07:28 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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I do not see what Radeon card BirdDogICT uses. I am talking about Radeon HD, HD7870 to be precise.

#4449676 - 11/20/18 07:31 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: JJJ65]  
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
I do not see what Radeon card BirdDogICT uses. I am talking about Radeon HD, HD7870 to be precise.


I think you are correct here - in this thread, anyway, he doesn't say specifically. However, I am fairly certain he does use an AMD Radeon HD card. If I can find where, I'll post to show you. Again, I could be mistaken.


Here: http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.p...uttering-when-looking-around#Post3889129

Of course, I do recognize this was a long time ago - but I'm still sure he's a pretty avid AMD user and has been for a long time. Not as if he'd be using AMD drivers with an Nvidia card.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 11/20/18 08:01 PM.
#4449683 - 11/20/18 08:03 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: JJJ65]  
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
Originally Posted by dutch
One son is using the my old HD4890 and one son the HD7970, both playing warfront simulation games always from Steam sale and they are not the most modern games, I bet all DirectX9 maybe even DX8 and I never hear they have problems in playing any of these games after an Vcard update by MS Windows, which is generated automatic because of safety.
Most problems are what I think caused by wrong installation, not doing a clean install, or even the wrong driver is selected.

edit: Yep one problem because windows was installing the iGPU driver and not the external.

Let them try WOFF UE and then report. I am talking only about combo WOFF UE + Radeon HD cards + new graphics drivers.


If it helpful to you, I could give this a try, only not this weekend, because of my other activities that has something to do with freinds and lot of wine or beer.
What driver nr and were did you download this, before we get an discussion on that.

Edit: doing something better, we let Windows update install the driver, after a complete driver wipeout, so we have both the same version and from the same source.


Last edited by dutch; 11/20/18 08:38 PM.
#4449706 - 11/20/18 10:46 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Just a little heads-up from the guy with the driver problem in the thread that was quoted above: I haven't had the slightest problem with WOFF since back then and I'm currently running v. 18.7.1 (RX 470, though, not an HD card). Around January this year, AMD supposedly fixed some bugs relating to DX9 games which at least in my case seems to have helped. Gotta admit, though, that I still get antsy with every new driver update.

#4449718 - 11/20/18 11:44 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Trelawney]  
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Originally Posted by Trelawney
Just a little heads-up from the guy with the driver problem in the thread that was quoted above: I haven't had the slightest problem with WOFF since back then and I'm currently running v. 18.7.1 (RX 470, though, not an HD card). Around January this year, AMD supposedly fixed some bugs relating to DX9 games which at least in my case seems to have helped. Gotta admit, though, that I still get antsy with every new driver update.


Every driver released by ANY hardware vendor has the potential to cause problems and should make anyone antsy. Back in the day, the convention was if an update was available, you used it. Not so any more. Nowadays, I NEVER let Windows update ANY hardware driver, and I will generally only update a driver if I have a problem and studying the driver (release notes etc) tells me it's safe and may help solve my issue.

That said, however, I think all this finger-pointing about AMD is ill-advised. Many people here are just parroting words they've seen without understanding the circumstances. "AMD drivers won't work with WOFF!!!" when (I think) that both RX cards and HD cards have been individually reported as working with newer drivers. (And, as some may or may not know, the RX 470/480/570/580 are all essentially the same card/same GPU, even though AMD tried a fast one by renaming Ellesmere GPU in the 400 cards to "Polaris" in the 500s...so it's not likely the driver works with one but not the other).

Whatever the problem was back in late 2017 may have been limited to exactly that; there are too many examples here of people making it work to say AMD drivers don't work as a blanket statement. OBD comes here saying the drivers don't work and they're not supporting it, and forever more that's all you hear. Not only does this make no technical sense (given the factual evidence), it also makes no business sense to effectively scare away anyone using AMD hardware, thereby losing their support (i.e., 'money') which is always being clamored for.

#4449745 - 11/21/18 03:14 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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My AMD Radeon RX580 came in the mail Saturday. I couldn't justify the price given my current budget, so I took a risk and bought a used one off of eBay. Worse, it was that cheap because it had previously been used for Etherium mining. Worse still, when it came it was in the original package with a shipping label stuck on the store box. That package was not made for shipping, and was pretty hammered. Bottom line: Once I got it installed it works perfectly. No muss, no fuss, no hunting down new (or old) drivers. It's a pretty amazing card, especially for the price I paid. WOFF runs great, and seems to be a lot smoother. I'm happy. No complaints.

At that price I even thought about getting a second one, but I checked and not one of the four games I play is good with CrossFire, so I'm saving for a dedicated sound card instead.


Some people are born stupid. I've had to work hard my whole life to get this way. I'm proud of the job I've done
#4449758 - 11/21/18 07:09 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: kksnowbear]  
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JJJ65 Online cool
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
...(I think) that both RX cards and HD cards have been individually reported as working with newer drivers.

I must concur - I report that Radeon HD card (HD7870) DOES NOT WORK with new drivers, at least from my individual experience wink .
Repeatedly tested with different driver versions and proved the problem was evidently caused by new drivers.
Can not continue with testing, however, because I have replaced my graphics card with GTX1060 6GB half a year ago.
(Win 7 64, Radeon HD7870, 16GB RAM, Intel i5, SATA HDD 1.5TB)

#4450940 - 11/29/18 03:38 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Sorry I can't verify that the HD7870 works with the most recent drivers...my old HD7870 burned up during my early conversion to Windows 10. Didn't notice that the drivers had mucked up the fan control until it was too late.

FWIW, my current card is a 8mB RX480. Works great.


There are no accidents and no fatal flaws in the machines; there are only pilots with the wrong stuff.

Tom Wolfe, The Right Stuff,1979.
#4450959 - 11/29/18 08:21 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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I wouldn;t be getting too excited about a graphics card, anything that's 2-4GB with a decent bus speed is fine. Look seriously into an outstanding CPU and you'll be golden.


Let's pretend I got the BWOC badge to embed here.

Wenn ihr sieg im deine Kampf selbst gegen, wirst schwer wie stahl sein.
#4451006 - 11/29/18 04:29 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Yes, the RX470 is fine with the latest drivers too (you guys had me panicking -- but absolutely no problems here with them (idk, maybe the whole Radeon doesn't work properly with this sim perhaps outta be put to rest? - suppose HD needs more of a confirmation i guess (??)).

Last edited by Redwolf; 11/29/18 04:32 PM.
#4451010 - 11/29/18 04:39 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: JJJ65]  
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Redwolf Offline
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
Originally Posted by kksnowbear
...(I think) that both RX cards and HD cards have been individually reported as working with newer drivers.

I must concur - I report that Radeon HD card (HD7870) DOES NOT WORK with new drivers, at least from my individual experience wink .
Repeatedly tested with different driver versions and proved the problem was evidently caused by new drivers.
Can not continue with testing, however, because I have replaced my graphics card with GTX1060 6GB half a year ago.
(Win 7 64, Radeon HD7870, 16GB RAM, Intel i5, SATA HDD 1.5TB)


Oops, I think you misused a word here - concur means to agree.
I see the word being incorrectly used on the IL2 GBS forums at 1C too - perhaps by the very same person (?). Going to chalk it up as a non-native english language mistake. Just pointing it out so you know smile

#4451015 - 11/29/18 05:04 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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Originally Posted by Redwolf
Originally Posted by JJJ65
Originally Posted by kksnowbear
...(I think) that both RX cards and HD cards have been individually reported as working with newer drivers.

I must concur - I report that Radeon HD card (HD7870) DOES NOT WORK with new drivers, at least from my individual experience wink .
Repeatedly tested with different driver versions and proved the problem was evidently caused by new drivers.
Can not continue with testing, however, because I have replaced my graphics card with GTX1060 6GB half a year ago.
(Win 7 64, Radeon HD7870, 16GB RAM, Intel i5, SATA HDD 1.5TB)


Oops, I think you misused a word here - concur means to agree.
I see the word being incorrectly used on the IL2 GBS forums at 1C too - perhaps by the very same person (?). Going to chalk it up as a non-native english language mistake. Just pointing it out so you know smile



I noticed that, too - but thought he was concurring with the "individual" part (as evidenced by the phrase "individual experience" later in the same sentence).

Either way, here's the thing: If newer cards (RX) work with newer drivers, and (as it seems) older cards work with older drivers...OBD isn't doing themselves any favors by condoning/endorsing this ongoing (and misguided) blather that "AMD cards won't work with WOFF". They could be a lot more specific, specifying the findings as they are updated, and (seems to me) make it clear that *every* AMD user can run this sim - with appropriate drivers, of course.

The way it's been handled so far, AMD is being regarded as a turd in the punchbowl, and thus anyone who uses their cards is just as likely as not to pass on the sim entirely, because they've gotten the wrong impression.

Right here in this very thread it's being misrepresented, if you read back. At least JJJ did try to say, at one point, that 'certain' AMD cards (eg HD series) had problems with newer drivers, at least in his own case. What he did not do was say "AMD cards might not work unless AMD fixes their drivers" - but it has certainly been stated around here, more than once, of late. And another poster here asked for specifics about the issue, but so far there's been no official, accurately informed response.

#4451022 - 11/29/18 05:49 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Pleased to hear that it's possible to run WOFFue on AMD gents'...been thinking about trying it out on the dual FirePro 500 cards that are available in the mid-range Mac Pro (trash can style) model from 2013...will see about dipping my toes in this experiment and will post under the relevant Mac thread if I should go this route. Theoretically, it should improve frame rates by about 2 to 2.5x times over the Intel HD 4000 (integrated) card that is in my Mac Mini (2012). A jump from about 30 to 50-60 fps will be proof of a successful experiment.

Von S smile2

#4451026 - 11/29/18 05:59 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Has anyone gotten an RTX 2080 / 2080 ti? Very pricey, just curious if anyone as and what the WOFF UE results were.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 4.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
Click to reveal.. (warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
Corsair CX850M Power Supply
Acer XB280HK 27" G-SYNC Monitor
Corsair RGB STRAFE MX Silent Keyboard
Windows 10 Home 64 bit

#4451035 - 11/29/18 07:04 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Redwolf]  
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JJJ65 Online cool
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Originally Posted by Redwolf
Originally Posted by JJJ65
Originally Posted by kksnowbear
...(I think) that both RX cards and HD cards have been individually reported as working with newer drivers.

I must concur - I report that Radeon HD card (HD7870) DOES NOT WORK with new drivers, at least from my individual experience wink .
Repeatedly tested with different driver versions and proved the problem was evidently caused by new drivers.
Can not continue with testing, however, because I have replaced my graphics card with GTX1060 6GB half a year ago.
(Win 7 64, Radeon HD7870, 16GB RAM, Intel i5, SATA HDD 1.5TB)


Oops, I think you misused a word here - concur means to agree.
I see the word being incorrectly used on the IL2 GBS forums at 1C too - perhaps by the very same person (?). Going to chalk it up as a non-native english language mistake. Just pointing it out so you know smile

Yep, that was due to my poor English. Thank you for correction.
BTW, I have not used that word on IL2 forum. Not discussing there.

#4451044 - 11/29/18 07:54 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: JJJ65]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
Originally Posted by Redwolf
Originally Posted by JJJ65
Originally Posted by kksnowbear
...(I think) that both RX cards and HD cards have been individually reported as working with newer drivers.

I must concur - I report that Radeon HD card (HD7870) DOES NOT WORK with new drivers, at least from my individual experience wink .
Repeatedly tested with different driver versions and proved the problem was evidently caused by new drivers.
Can not continue with testing, however, because I have replaced my graphics card with GTX1060 6GB half a year ago.
(Win 7 64, Radeon HD7870, 16GB RAM, Intel i5, SATA HDD 1.5TB)


Oops, I think you misused a word here - concur means to agree.
I see the word being incorrectly used on the IL2 GBS forums at 1C too - perhaps by the very same person (?). Going to chalk it up as a non-native english language mistake. Just pointing it out so you know smile

Yep, that was due to my poor English. Thank you for correction.
BTW, I have not used that word on IL2 forum. Not discussing there.


And, correct me if I'm wrong...But, as you haven't tried an HD card since ~6 months, and there have been newer drivers released in that time...

...it's impossible for you to say conclusively that drivers since then won't work.

#4451054 - 11/29/18 08:47 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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Hellshade:
My 2080 Ti works just fine with my 32" 4K G-sync monitor. thumbsup

With the 9900K CPU it is the first time in over 10 years playing OFF3 / WOFF / WOFF UE that I never drop below 60 FPS at any time or any place (Spring 2018 Flanders). bottles

Finally.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451056 - 11/29/18 08:54 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Panama Red]  
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Hellshade Offline
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
Hellshade:
My 2080 Ti works just fine with my 32" 4K G-sync monitor. thumbsup

With the 9900K CPU it is the first time in over 10 years playing OFF3 / WOFF / WOFF UE that I never drop below 60 FPS at any time or any place (Spring 2018 Flanders). bottles

Finally.


Including with time compression?


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 4.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
Click to reveal.. (warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
Corsair CX850M Power Supply
Acer XB280HK 27" G-SYNC Monitor
Corsair RGB STRAFE MX Silent Keyboard
Windows 10 Home 64 bit

#4451060 - 11/29/18 09:09 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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My time compression is better, but at 12X low over the front in Flanders Spring 1918, it can still drop to 15 FPS, but those numbers are not as common as they were in the past.

It is the CPU that really gives the FPS a boost versus the GPU even with the 32" 4K monitor.

If AnKor ever succeeds in converting us to DX11, then the GPU will become supreme, but under DX9, it's still the CPU that is supreme for WOFF & WOTR.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451061 - 11/29/18 09:11 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Panama Red]  
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Panama which monitor do you have?


I got fired as the door man at a sperm bank.
Apparently it's in poor taste to tell leaving customers "Thanks for coming."

Former U.S. Army Medic - SGT.
#4451063 - 11/29/18 09:18 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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AceMedic88:
Acer Predator XB32HK. It's the only 32" 4K G-sync monitor currently being made and it works great for all my flight games.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451065 - 11/29/18 09:36 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Panama Red]  
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Hellshade Offline
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
My time compression is better, but at 12X low over the front in Flanders Spring 1918, it can still drop to 15 FPS, but those numbers are not as common as they were in the past.

It is the CPU that really gives the FPS a boost versus the GPU even with the 32" 4K monitor.

If AnKor ever succeeds in converting us to DX11, then the GPU will become supreme, but under DX9, it's still the CPU that is supreme for WOFF & WOTR.



Currently running a 7700k which has a higher base clock speed than the 9900k does, but fewer cpu cores. Since WOFF UE uses a single core, am I not better off just staying with the 7700k in this instance?


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 4.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
Click to reveal.. (warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
Corsair CX850M Power Supply
Acer XB280HK 27" G-SYNC Monitor
Corsair RGB STRAFE MX Silent Keyboard
Windows 10 Home 64 bit

#4451068 - 11/29/18 09:48 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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I went from a 7700K on my last game PC to a 9900K on my new game PC and the difference is very apparent in the game even though I had my 7700K overclocked to 4.5 GHz.

The difference is all the z390 board manufactures auto overclock straight from the factory with MCE (Multi-Core Enhancement) so the lowest the 9900K goes is 4.7 GHz (24/7) when under load and boost up to 5.0 GHz when needed with 2 cores.

The only way you can get all the z390 motherboards to drop to Intel's normal Turbo boost of 100 seconds max per core (with 3.6 GHZ base versus 4.7 GHz base) is by turning OFF the MCE, with makes little sense since it's really nice to have all the extra power without using any more Vcore than the 7700K uses normally too (1.200 V).

This is why the 9900K is so much nicer than my old OC'ed 7700K CPU.



CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451075 - 11/29/18 10:30 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Hellshade Offline
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That makes sense, PR. Thanks for the info!


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 4.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
Click to reveal.. (warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
Corsair CX850M Power Supply
Acer XB280HK 27" G-SYNC Monitor
Corsair RGB STRAFE MX Silent Keyboard
Windows 10 Home 64 bit

#4451107 - 11/30/18 04:07 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Panama Red]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
I went from a 7700K on my last game PC to a 9900K on my new game PC and the difference is very apparent in the game even though I had my 7700K overclocked to 4.5 GHz.

The difference is all the z390 board manufactures auto overclock straight from the factory with MCE (Multi-Core Enhancement) so the lowest the 9900K goes is 4.7 GHz (24/7) when under load and boost up to 5.0 GHz when needed with 2 cores.

The only way you can get all the z390 motherboards to drop to Intel's normal Turbo boost of 100 seconds max per core (with 3.6 GHZ base versus 4.7 GHz base) is by turning OFF the MCE, with makes little sense since it's really nice to have all the extra power without using any more Vcore than the 7700K uses normally too (1.200 V).

This is why the 9900K is so much nicer than my old OC'ed 7700K CPU.



But MCE has been around since 2012 in various names by different companies...and has been available on motherboards/chipsets for CPUs going at least as far back as Ivy Bridge, to include the 7700k. Pretty sure it is optional now as it was then.

Basically overclocking for people who don't understand overclocking. Maybe easier, but like all "automatic" BIOS overclocking, not necessarily better than a properly applied "manual" overclock. (I'm sure there's a reason it can be turned off, and that reason appears to be higher voltage than needed and the resulting thermal issues...there's a lot of discussion about this online. It seems that many experienced overclockers turn MCE off to get better thermals at the same or better speeds.)

Incidentally, the board listed in Hellshade's profile (MSI Z170 GAMING M7) supports MCE on CPUs back to Skylake, including the 7700k he's using. I suspect all performance boards that support those CPUs feature some form of MCE, albeit by different names perhaps, meaning your prior 7700k setup probably had it too. Some have it turned on by default, some have it off. And although I'm not familiar with the details right off, I would imagine the 7700K's higher base speed would mean that it's MCE will follow (i.e., might be higher than the 9900k, as Hellshade asked about). Again, that's not based on first hand experience but it would make sense.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 11/30/18 12:16 PM.
#4451156 - 11/30/18 01:01 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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Sure his higher base clock speed for the 7700K is 4.2 GHz under MCE, but the higher base clock speed for the 9900K id 4.7 GHz which is still higher then his 4.5 GHz Turbo'ed where the 9900K can still Turbo up to 5.0 GHz.

After a lot of reading, watch the YouTube videos and testing with various software, my 9900K with MCE on auto maxes at 72 C (52 C with WOFF) and 1.199 volts Vcore.

And that is not just hypothetical kksnowbear, it reality no matter what you may "guess" about the 9900K chip and Asus Z390-E motherboard.

Yes, but everything I have read (and personally tested) about turning off MCE is for people who are tying to achieve a higher OC, but the down side of that is the lower base clock and less Turbo time since Intel's turbo lasts less than 100 seconds before dropping back to base. Where with the MCE enabled, it bring the base up to the minimum turbo, for 24 hours / 7 days a week even when you stress test the CPU.

So bottom line is the stock 9900K with MCE enabled is still way better than the OC'ed 7700K with MCE enabled, that is from REAL WORLD testing and WOFF gaming, not just reading or watching Youtube.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451157 - 11/30/18 01:10 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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There are plenty of real world examples where experienced overclockers turn MCE off due to the increased heat.

Your "reality" doesn't dictate what happens in the entire world. The real-world benefit in-game of that overclock is about 2%, and that's hardly what I'd call "way better". More likely, you spend a lot of money on stuff, therefore it must be 'way better'. Plenty of that going around, too.

Just because I can't afford to spend stupid amounts of money on the latest and greatest hardware like some people can, doesn't change that the facts are out there.

#4451161 - 11/30/18 01:37 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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REAL WORLD is actual testing and playing, not hypothetical and I do that on all my PC when I buy them, plus I own the games unlike you who will just talk about them (WOTR) with out buying them.

I do not ask you how you spend your money, so why are you asking me how I spend my money, are you jealous because I chose to spend my hobby money on my game PC and you don't ???

I'm not worried about getting the best OC I can on the 9900K, because "straight out of the box", it plays WOFF above 60 FPS ALL THE TIME since I started playing over 10 years ago.

Yes, I tried OC'ing the 9900K, but there was not benefit in FPS in WOFF, but a huge jump in Vcore (above 1.325 v), so I returned it to stock and it still keeps WOFF 100% above 60 FPS on my 32" 4K monitor.

And yes, to counter your "reading" the average Vcore I have found in reading other articles and Youtubes is ~ 1.200 v for Vcore at stock speeds with MCE enabled, which is the same at the Z170 board with the older 7700K at stock and MCE enabled.



P.S. the 2% you talk about are testing with games that are GPU intensive, not CPY intensive like WOFF and WOTR (but then you would not know about WOTR since you only talk about it but have not bought it)



CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451164 - 11/30/18 01:46 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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So you're right...i guess the ridiculous price for a 9900 set up is totally worth maybe 5% performance in real games, as is factually documented online if one cares to look.

One reviewer put it succinctly; the 9900k is worth it, if cost is no object. And that's not a comment on you or how you choose to spend...it's a comment on the reality that most people can't afford that kind of cost when the benefit is on the order of 5%.

#4451166 - 11/30/18 01:49 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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You are again talking about GPU games they have testing against (and yes, I read the same articles), but not CPU games like WOFF and WOTR games.

Like I said to Hellshade, when AnKor makes this a DX11 game, it will be GPU intensive and the CPU will not matter as much, but until then, WOFF and WOTR (which you do not own, but talk about) are CPU intensive.

Ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. Just because you do not want a faster CPU does not make it so I do not want a faster CPU.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451518 - 12/03/18 02:11 AM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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I've been silently following WOFF for what seems like years & years & years. I think this is the year I finally get a video card and PC that I can play it on, if only I can find the time. lol

#4451566 - 12/03/18 12:27 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Hentzau]  
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Originally Posted by Hentzau
I've been silently following WOFF for what seems like years & years & years. I think this is the year I finally get a video card and PC that I can play it on, if only I can find the time. lol


Well, you're in luck...thanks to Panama Red's diligence and expertise, we now know exactly what is needed for users to finally be able to get 60FPS steady from the sim, from his earlier post in this same thread:

Originally Posted by Panama Red
My 2080 Ti works just fine with my 32" 4K G-sync monitor. thumbsup

With the 9900K CPU it is the first time in over 10 years playing OFF3 / WOFF / WOFF UE that I never drop below 60 FPS at any time or any place (Spring 2018 Flanders). bottles

Finally.


Unfortunately, you'll need a big budget: The CPU alone is over $550...and the GPU? That's around $1200. Plus, you'll obviously need one of the latest Z390 motherboards, so that's another $200-300 or so. And RAM if you don't already have DDR4 you can reuse. Good news, though you can find 16G DDR4 for only $100...and, you might be able to reuse your drives, depending on what else you have. You'll need an OS license, unless you already have a Windows 10 retail license - since OEM licenses are technically bound to one PC and can't be used on another, and since Microcosft got to Intel, new hardware requires Windows 10 (even if you're happy with W7, for example)...so that'll be around $100...

So, you should be able to get in the door for around $2200. It being the holiday season, maybe you can catch sale prices.

Sure, you can probably get a system that will run most any other game at 60 FPS for about one third of that...but, just as PR said:

Originally Posted by Panama Red
You are again talking about GPU games they have testing against (and yes, I read the same articles), but not CPU games like WOFF and WOTR games.


I guess it's true; if you want top-notch performance, you have to be prepared to "bring the bank" biggrin biggrin biggrin

In any event, best of luck to you smile

Last edited by kksnowbear; 12/03/18 12:29 PM.
#4451577 - 12/03/18 01:53 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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kksnowbear:
You are correct, I never said this new PC was cheap, but then I still have PC's I bought over 10 years ago doing various duties around the house. So you see, I buy for the looonnnngggg run and recycle the older PC's to other purposes when I replace them with newer PC's.

Since this is my main hobby since I'm retired now and WOFF UE is my main game, I have kept upgrading throughout the years until I have finally reached my goal of a constant 60 FPS (Flanders, Spring 1918) with maxed out settings so I can enjoy the game in all it's glory. thumbsup

But then each and every person has to decide themselves what they want and what they are willing to spend (be it time, energy, resources, etc.) to achieve their goal. biggrin


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451585 - 12/03/18 02:55 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Oh, I'm just glad to see your report on the system required to finally be able get that level of performance from the sim. 60FPS for only $2200**, that's definitely impressive, for sure.

Very useful to have such authoritative references available, to pass along and help inform others.

** Forgot to mention that $2200 doesn't include drives, a chassis, the aftermarket cooler likely necessary...you could spend another few hundred plus on incidentals like these.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 12/03/18 03:01 PM.
#4451587 - 12/03/18 03:04 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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I never said it was $2200. With all the bells and whistles (and to still be usable for the next 10 years for other purposes when it gets downgraded to other proposes), it costs more than that.

My oldest PC still being used is an original i7 975 Extreme PC from 10 years ago for my old Windows 7 games. I never get rid of a PC unless it no longer functions or have zero use for any other tasks.

I used to build my own PC's years ago, but I found that I can get exactly what I want by buying from places like CyberPower and the same price (since they buy in bulk) as my putting it together without all the hassles in making sure everything works from the get go.

But again, it goes back to what you are willing to spend in time, effort and resources to accomplish your goals.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451591 - 12/03/18 03:17 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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So...more than $2200 (which is also what I said ...that was just the CPU, main board, RAM and GPU).

60FPS, and at a cost more than let's say $2500. In your case, I wouldn't be surprised at $3000.

I still build my own PCs, and I do it for other people too. I've never had any hassles in making sure it works, I guess because I know what I'm doing...and I've seen some pretty shady, lazy, and stupid things inside 'pre-built' machines from the big names. (Yeah, they buy in bulk - and then slap on a 40% margin....)

But I'd be ashamed to suggest anyone had to pay $2500+ to get 60FPS. No matter the reasoning, that's just absurd.

My guess is this, along with the going on about AMD's graphics cards (which was the subject of this thread, BTW), will only drive more potential customers away from the sim.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 12/03/18 03:19 PM.
#4451595 - 12/03/18 03:42 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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I can also play WOFF UE on one of my laptops (with dedicated GPU) that only has a 3.0 GHz CPU (at mostly 60 FPS), but all the settings are at 1 versus 5 and no additional terrain mods which add a load.

So yes, you can still play WOFF UE from the highest level PC to the lowest PC, you just have to adjust for what you have and what you want.

WOFF (UE) used to be my "canary in the coal mine" game, i.e. if the PC could play WOFF (UE), it could play any of the other hundreds of games I own, but that is no longer the case, WOTR is actually a more demanding game than WOFF UE is right now. That is until OBD implements the various things that drag down WOTR into WOFF UE. Hopefully by the time they do that, WOFF UE will be upgraded to DX11 and then the CPU will not be as critical as it in with the DX9 WOFF UE.

P.S I'm trying to stay away from the AMD graphics card discussion since that is a dead horse as far as OBD is concerned at the moment (as you recall from the last "locked" thread on this subject).


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451598 - 12/03/18 03:51 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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So... $2500-3000 for 60FPS consistently. Pay someone to build it for you, and act as if you know what you're doing. Just no AMD cards.

Got it, thanks smile

#4451602 - 12/03/18 04:00 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Yes, I know what I am doing because I research for a long time before I buy and I can analyze, fix or replace things when they go bad since I used to build my own PC's.

Plus, if I use your same analogy as you, since you do not build your own automobile, you do not know anything about it before you buy it, correct ???


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451606 - 12/03/18 04:18 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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I don't claim to be hot-rodding my automobile, nor try to convince anyone that I'm an expert.

(EDIT: I also don't spend $60,000 for a car just because it's the top-of-the-line, either - nor would I.)

(And, unlike computers, I've not made a living for 35+ years working on cars.)

Nice try... screwy

Really all you're accomplishing here is making it obvious you throw a lot of money at the latest and greatest hardware.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 12/03/18 04:35 PM.
#4451615 - 12/03/18 04:55 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
So... $2500-3000 for 60FPS consistently. Pay someone to build it for you, and act as if you know what you're doing. Just no AMD cards.

Got it, thanks smile


If it works for him and he's happy with the result, why get so snarky over it? Maybe the money isn't a big deal to him. Some people pump money into fishing boats, others into cars. He does it for his favorite hobby, WOFF UE. If you can do it for less, kudos to you. Not sure why you need to get on his case about how he spends his money on his hobby and then shares the results he gets. His results are welcome here. So are yours if you care to share.

Last edited by Hellshade; 12/03/18 04:56 PM.

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#4451616 - 12/03/18 04:57 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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PR..seriously pal I just wouldn't engage with him. It doesn't matter what you say he won't have it. (I Personnally think he,s got a problem with OBD). If I'm correct he's never owned WOTR and sold his copy of WOFFUE months ago. Yet the majority of his postings are on OBD,S sims threads??? And the majority are negative regarding these sims. Why doesn't he offer his "expert" advice on other forums here at SimHQ?

He,s a know it all who's "never" wrong,he believes that his intellect is far superior to anyone else's. Seriously it's your time to do with what you like PR but you'll end up just going round in circles with him.

It really looks like it comes down to jealousy PR,your system which you've payed for is a beautiful bit of work. What's the problem with PR putting HIS money towards the latest and greatest hardware kksnowbear?
What's your 35 years in the industry prove? I build PC,s in my spare time,I bet you I could build one exactly the same as you and I don't have any experience in the industry. It's not rocket science anymore to build systems..it's all plug and play nowadays.

Like I've mentioned in past threads PR I've never seen a positive post from kksnowbear regarding OBD,S sims,he seemingly lurks the WOFF/WOTR threads "waiting" for his chance. No other threads on SimHQ does he do this. And with the amount of emojis he uses at times I often wonder if it's a grown up were in discussion with.

And fwiw,my PC cost nowhere near as much as what you've quoted kksnowbear. In fact the most expensive part in there is my GPU at £400. My CPU was £200(pre-owned) monitor was £230 and apart from flying over airfields (using the airfield mod) I get a near constant 60fps when I disable said mod I get my 60


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4451617 - 12/03/18 04:57 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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kksnowbear:
No, all I'm saying is if you want certain standards in playing your game, you may need to purchase certain items to get there.

Unlike you, I'm not jealous when someone posts about their new PC on the forums and what their results are in game.

Again, you are applying YOUR standards to what people should buy, be it a PC, car or what ever. It is their money and they are entitled to spend it how they want, not the way YOU say they should spend it.



Just to let you know, years ago OBD banded an individual (Uncle AL) that was always a "know-it -all" and had a "snarky" comment whenever he did not agree with what some one said. I have been hoping you will not go down this path and the same thing happen to you.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451624 - 12/03/18 05:26 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Like I said, I'm just glad to have your report that it took a $2500+ machine to get 60 FPS continuously from WOFF, after 10 years.

Oh, and I was here (and on other sites) for all of the UncleAl days. Not sure why you feel compelled to bring all that up, unless you're already complaining to someone yourself, or just trying to intimidate me...but I seriously doubt you're concerned for what happens to me biggrin biggrin biggrin

Jealous? Hardly. I'm not the one who needs to show off the computer I paid someone else to build.

I'm not forcing anything on anyone. When I build/sell PC stuff, the choice is always the customers. I just typically advise against anyone spending needless amounts of money on the latest and greatest thing. But, I tell them if they want to do it, I'll build it for them. Then I explain how they can probably do as well (or practically so) for a better price - and I tell them to spend the difference on their family, church, or charity. 100% go for the less expensive options I offer.

#4451625 - 12/03/18 05:35 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Panama Red Offline
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You may have been here since him, but you have not learned any either.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451634 - 12/03/18 06:12 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Adger]  
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Originally Posted by Adger
And with the amount of emojis he uses at times I often wonder if it's a grown up were in discussion with.

And fwiw,my PC cost nowhere near as much as what you've quoted kksnowbear. In fact the most expensive part in there is my GPU at £400. My CPU was £200(pre-owned) monitor was £230 and apart from flying over airfields (using the airfield mod) I get a near constant 60fps when I disable said mod I get my 60


First of all, you're apparently forgetting that I told you recently, but how do you propose I would've pulled off meeting other forum people (and having dinner, replete with wife and pet birds, mind), if I were some kid in his parents' basement. Another sadly misguided theory about me that is unnecessary and inaccurate.

As for the cost of your PC, my "quoting" was the parts PR says he has, not something I came up with. Just looked up parts costs online, and in fact he said his was actually *more*.

It's very interesting that you can "get (your) 60" from a machine that costs so little by comparison, but PR reports he only 'finally' got that level of performance after 10 years running OFF P3, WOFF, and WOFF UE, by getting a machine that cost several times as much.

A fascinating disparity, and it sort of seems to prove the point that an extreme top-of-the-line PC (shouldn't be) necessary to get that performance. Either that, or someone's way off on their assessment.

#4451635 - 12/03/18 06:17 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Adger Offline
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Like I said, I'm just glad to have your report that it took a $2500+ machine to get 60 FPS continuously from WOFF, after 10 years.

Jealous? Hardly. I'm not the one who needs to show off the computer I paid someone else to build.




There you go again in your 1st sentence,your little snidely dig at a OBD sim. None of which I believe you currently own. It doesn't take a $2500 to get 60fps on WOFF but then again you know that already kksnowbear.

"Show Off" the computer ? I don't see PR showing off his computer. People have asked about his setup and he's obliged by commenting on it so therefore I believe also that there's a jealous element to your comments.


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4451636 - 12/03/18 06:27 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
I'm not forcing anything on anyone.


No, you are being a sarcastic snob. PR isn't forcing anything on anyone either. He's happy with the results he's getting and never told anyone they "had" to do it his way. This discussion has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with your ego.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 4.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
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#4451642 - 12/03/18 06:34 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Adger Offline
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Originally Posted by Adger
And with the amount of emojis he uses at times I often wonder if it's a grown up were in discussion with.

And fwiw,my PC cost nowhere near as much as what you've quoted kksnowbear. In fact the most expensive part in there is my GPU at £400. My CPU was £200(pre-owned) monitor was £230 and apart from flying over airfields (using the airfield mod) I get a near constant 60fps when I disable said mod I get my 60


It's very interesting that you can "get (your) 60" from a machine that costs so little by comparison, but PR reports he only 'finally' got that level of performance after 10 years running OFF P3, WOFF, and WOFF UE, by getting a machine that cost several times as much.

A fascinating disparity, and it sort of seems to prove the point that an extreme top-of-the-line PC (shouldn't be) necessary to get that performance. Either that, or someone's way off on their assessment.


1st of all your assuming that we are using the exact same settings. It may be that PR uses higher resolutions? Maybe he has more mods than me? His workshop settings may be higher? Maybe he has more background tasks working than mine,does he use Windows 10 where has I use Win 7. We've both reported our findings which I can tell you are a honest assessment from my part regarding this sim. I have absolutely no reason to not believe PR in any way shape or form regarding his findings either.

It looks like PR is using a 4K monitor so of course a high resolution like that requires a beefier system to get higher FPS. So I'm correct kksnowbear a "cheaper" system running at a lower resolution would indeed produce 60fps. I'd of thought with your 35 years experience you'd have known that though


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4451645 - 12/03/18 06:59 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Originally Posted by Adger
Originally Posted by kksnowbear
Originally Posted by Adger
And with the amount of emojis he uses at times I often wonder if it's a grown up were in discussion with.

And fwiw,my PC cost nowhere near as much as what you've quoted kksnowbear. In fact the most expensive part in there is my GPU at £400. My CPU was £200(pre-owned) monitor was £230 and apart from flying over airfields (using the airfield mod) I get a near constant 60fps when I disable said mod I get my 60


It's very interesting that you can "get (your) 60" from a machine that costs so little by comparison, but PR reports he only 'finally' got that level of performance after 10 years running OFF P3, WOFF, and WOFF UE, by getting a machine that cost several times as much.

A fascinating disparity, and it sort of seems to prove the point that an extreme top-of-the-line PC (shouldn't be) necessary to get that performance. Either that, or someone's way off on their assessment.


1st of all your assuming that we are using the exact same settings. It may be that PR uses higher resolutions? Maybe he has more mods than me? His workshop settings may be higher? Maybe he has more background tasks working than mine,does he use Windows 10 where has I use Win 7. We've both reported our findings which I can tell you are a honest assessment from my part regarding this sim. I have absolutely no reason to not believe PR in any way shape or form regarding his findings either.

It looks like PR is using a 4K monitor so of course a high resolution like that requires a beefier system to get higher FPS. So I'm correct kksnowbear a "cheaper" system running at a lower resolution would indeed produce 60fps. I'd of thought with your 35 years experience you'd have known that though


So, 10 years ago, he had a 4k monitor? He did say that he hadn't been able to get 60FPS until now, after 10 years. He covered everything from OFF P3 to WOFF UE. Here it is again:

Originally Posted by Panama Red
With the 9900K CPU it is the first time in over 10 years playing OFF3 / WOFF / WOFF UE that I never drop below 60 FPS at any time or any place...

Finally.


And with all his experience and his long time goal of getting 60 frames as he says...well, you'd certainly think he tried different settings.

According to him, he wasn't getting 60FPS steady for all this time, never mind what monitor, settings, system or anything else. It was his new setup alone that has realized the goal.

#4451652 - 12/03/18 07:03 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Adger]  
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JJJ65 Online cool
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Originally Posted by Adger

It looks like PR is using a 4K monitor so of course a high resolution like that requires a beefier system to get higher FPS. So I'm correct kksnowbear a "cheaper" system running at a lower resolution would indeed produce 60fps. I'd of thought with your 35 years experience you'd have known that though

+1

#4451655 - 12/03/18 07:06 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Hellshade]  
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Originally Posted by Hellshade
Originally Posted by kksnowbear
I'm not forcing anything on anyone.


No, you are being a sarcastic snob. PR isn't forcing anything on anyone either. He's happy with the results he's getting and never told anyone they "had" to do it his way. This discussion has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with your ego.





Nice name-calling. Funny, something that's resorted to often, I've noticed. Very mature.

The reason I've posted is because I believe it's a very bad idea when these silly internet 'bragging rights' are invoked.

And, BTW: No one asked PR about anything other than his GPU (which you did). He volunteered the rest. Go check, if you don't believe me. But there it is, none the less. Of course, I'm sure you'll have some reason to explain it - but it wasn't because anyone asked for it.

#4451658 - 12/03/18 07:10 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: JJJ65]  
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
Originally Posted by Adger

It looks like PR is using a 4K monitor so of course a high resolution like that requires a beefier system to get higher FPS. So I'm correct kksnowbear a "cheaper" system running at a lower resolution would indeed produce 60fps. I'd of thought with your 35 years experience you'd have known that though

+1


So, same question to you: 10 years ago, PR had a 4k monitor? Again, according to his own words it was his new setup alone that allowed him to reach his goal.

I'd have thought a logically-minded person would see that.

#4451659 - 12/03/18 07:12 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Thanks God we have logically-minded person here, kksnowbear. thumbsup

#4451661 - 12/03/18 07:20 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Is there an "Ignore User" option on the forum? Asking for a friend. Only way to get rid of a troll is to starve them of attention they are clearly desperate for.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 4.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
Click to reveal.. (warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
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#4451663 - 12/03/18 07:33 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
Joined: Jan 2016
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kksnowbear Offline
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kksnowbear  Offline
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
Thanks God we have logically-minded person here, kksnowbear. thumbsup


Hey, thanks. I appreciate the comments - but please feel free to actually address the point: PR said it was his new system alone that allowed him to reach 60FPS for the first time ever, in 10 years.

You opted to join the conversation, so I would infer you have some relevant input. By all means, I'd like to hear your perspective. Logically, how does one account for PR's report, when Adger says he gets 60FPS on a much lesser system just by disabling a mod (which isn't even part of the default install, BTW)?

#4451664 - 12/03/18 07:46 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,608
Panama Red Offline
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Panama Red  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,608
Irmo, SC, USA
kksnowbear:
You really are not listening are you (which is normal for you). I said 60 FPS all the time, every where, not just 60 FPS.

10 Years ago when I started playing OFF3, I felt great when I could get to 60 FPS during a campaign mission (it was normally ~ 40 FPS). As the years progressed and CPUs & GPUs got stronger, the better the FPS and closer to 60 FPS all the time.

On my last game PC (7700K & 1080 Ti, 1440p monitor) I got 60 FPS 99% of the time, but it would still drop to the upper 40's or low 50's when coming in to land Flanders, Spring 1918 and cause huge stuttering when it did that.

As I said, (if you had been listening), I have finally reached 60 FPS constantly every where and all times (Flanders, Spring 1918) at MAX settings in 10 years and that has been my goal.

Do not know what you goal is, other that post "knows-it-all" and "snarky" comments on this forum as others have noticed too.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451672 - 12/03/18 08:24 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Hellshade]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,370
Raine Online content
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Raine  Online Content
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New Brunswick, Canada
Originally Posted by Hellshade
Is there an "Ignore User" option on the forum? Asking for a friend. Only way to get rid of a troll is to starve them of attention they are clearly desperate for.


Way ahead of you. Click on the user's name to the left of his post. This brings up the user page on which "ignore" is an option.

#4451674 - 12/03/18 08:28 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Raine]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,010
Hellshade Offline
Hellshade
Hellshade  Offline
Hellshade
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Posts: 4,010
Florida
Originally Posted by Raine
Originally Posted by Hellshade
Is there an "Ignore User" option on the forum? Asking for a friend. Only way to get rid of a troll is to starve them of attention they are clearly desperate for.


Way ahead of you. Click on the user's name to the left of his post. This brings up the user page on which "ignore" is an option.


Thanks, Raine. Trolls never change. Until there's a ban, there is at least Ignore.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 4.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
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Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
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1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
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#4451675 - 12/03/18 08:28 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Panama Red]  
Joined: Jan 2016
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kksnowbear Offline
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kksnowbear  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by Panama Red

With the 9900K CPU it is the first time in over 10 years playing OFF3 / WOFF / WOFF UE that I never drop below 60 FPS at any time or any place (Spring 2018 Flanders).

Finally.


You said that you never got 60fps consistently before you got the 9900k CPU and 2080Ti.

"Never drop below" is exactly the same thing as consistently getting (at least) 60fps. You indicate that, for the first time ever in 10 years playing all three variants of the sim, you never got 60fps consistently. - until you got the 9900k.

I don't think I've misunderstood or misquoted anything at all.

#4451677 - 12/03/18 08:33 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
Joined: Sep 2015
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Stache Offline
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Stache  Offline
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Posts: 631
Michigan, USA
I don't know maybe kksnowbear purchased more than one copy of WOFF UE.

Not only does he not have a vested interest in WOTR... appears he no longer has a vested interest in WOFF UE.

Move along.... nothing to see here...

[Linked Image]

Attached Files kknowsbear sold woffue.png
Last edited by Stache; 12/03/18 08:36 PM.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Saitek Pro Flight Pedals & Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5; home grown cockpit, � la RogerDodger.net
#4451679 - 12/03/18 08:49 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,511
JJJ65 Online cool
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JJJ65  Online Cool
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Good point, Stache thumbsup

#4451689 - 12/03/18 09:26 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,608
Panama Red Offline
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Panama Red  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,608
Irmo, SC, USA
kknowsitall:
"but please feel free to actually address the point: PR said it was his new system alone that allowed him to reach 60FPS for the first time ever, in 10 years." is what you posted and that is not what I said.

I have reached 60 FPS back in OFF3 days, just I never reached 60 FPS consistently like my current setup as I stated as my goal.

Please read what you write before auguring about it.


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451690 - 12/03/18 09:28 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Stache]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,010
Hellshade Offline
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Hellshade  Offline
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Florida
I'm not the least bit surprised, but thanks for that Stache. wink

PR - you have helped contribute time and effort to making this sim better many times, not least of which were your efforts to reduce scenery popping in conjunction with the "blue triangle killer" mod. I still use your version of it to play WOFF UE to this day. Don't waste your time with kknowsbear. He's not here to help. He doesn't even own the sim. He just likes to incite people to make himself feel big even though he's never contributed a #%&*$# thing to the sim, unlike you and many others here. Put him on ignore and let him suffocate with the lack of responses.

Last edited by Hellshade; 12/03/18 09:34 PM.

Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition 4.x
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

System Specs
Click to reveal.. (warning)
Intel i7 6700K OC 4.6 Ghz
Corsair Hydro H60 Liquid Cooler
16 GB Corsair Dominator Platinum DDR4 RAM
2 x EVO 850 1TB SSD Drives (OS & Games)
1 Intel 240GB SSD drive (Scratch drive for videos)
MSI Z170 GAMER M7 Motherboard
EVGA GTX 1080 Founders Edition
Corsair CX850M Power Supply
Acer XB280HK 27" G-SYNC Monitor
Corsair RGB STRAFE MX Silent Keyboard
Windows 10 Home 64 bit

#4451693 - 12/03/18 09:44 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: Panama Red]  
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 377
kksnowbear Offline
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kksnowbear  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by Panama Red
kknowsitall:
"but please feel free to actually address the point: PR said it was his new system alone that allowed him to reach 60FPS for the first time ever, in 10 years." is what you posted and that is not what I said.

I have reached 60 FPS back in OFF3 days, just I never reached 60 FPS consistently like my current setup as I stated as my goal.

Please read what you write before auguring about it.


By that point in this conversation, it's long since understood what you stated.

But you are correct I did omit the word continuously. However, that was strictly a typo and it doesn't change the discussion, nor what you've reported.

What you've stated is that it was the new system, 9900k and 2080ti etc that has allowed you to reach your goal of 60 fps consistently. First time ever, in fact, in 10 years of playing OFF etc. Meaning that, according to what you indicated, the new system was necessary to get 60fps continuously.

Probably easier to stop clutching at all these straws, when it really doesn't change what you said.

And it still leaves the question of how Adger did it with a much lesser system just by turning off a mod.

#4451696 - 12/03/18 09:53 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,608
Panama Red Offline
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Panama Red  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,608
Irmo, SC, USA
Sounds like kknowsitall is into his deadhorse routine now. biggrin


CPU = i9 9900K, GPU = RTX 2080 Ti, Monitor = 32" 4K G-sync
#4451697 - 12/03/18 09:57 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: OvStachel]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,511
JJJ65 Online cool
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JJJ65  Online Cool
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,511
Czech Rep.
Let's follow Hellshade's advice. Addio.

#4451999 - 12/05/18 09:57 PM Re: Opinions needed for next graphics card. [Re: JJJ65]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 363
BirdDogICT Offline
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BirdDogICT  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 363
Anybody remember Uncle Al? Despite his sometimes helpful posts, I can't say I miss his vitriol.

+1 to Hellshade's advice


There are no accidents and no fatal flaws in the machines; there are only pilots with the wrong stuff.

Tom Wolfe, The Right Stuff,1979.
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