Hi Rick Yup, that's it precisely. I do genuinely appreciate your contribution and the corroboration it brings.

Your comment "I have had it happen near a collision, and in fact it probably helped guarantee that the collision occurred..." illustrates exactly what I'm referring to, and why I believe this to be a significant issue. As I mentioned above (and as your experience shows), this issue has an undesired effect on the game play, and no amount of piloting skill, computer knowledge, or hardware improvements have any effect on it.

On the question of "loading" - this has been discussed many times, both with regard to loading/playing sounds and aircraft/scenery textures. It's among what appear to be the most obvious potential sources. Myself, I was an 'early adopter' of SSDs (and also expensive, complex RAID arrays) - all for performance, and all performed as expected...expect with this issue. Although all games loaded much faster (of course), and the occasional minor pauses from scenery loading (in all games) have been practically eliminated by faster and faster computers and storage solutions...this issue remains essentially unchanged. That, by itself, almost seems to say that even if it is related to "loading", that whatever is going in in the sim with loading just isn't being improved the way everything else is, in spite of making changes that are relevant, appropriate, and meaningful.

Also, yes, I've done some testing in QC with no enemy AC, over friendly territory (no flak), trying to see if it was sound (flak) or something like the texture issue you're referring to...but so far it just doesn't seem to change. If there's a connection to loading, it certainly seems to evade a logical approach to diagnosis.

"Finding the link" as you put it - well, yes, exactly. I've been involved professionally with technical troubleshooting, and one of the first things that has to happen is to find the source. The difficulty is that there are two steps prior to that; the very first step is to acknowledge there is a problem, and the second being to identify the exact problem. Unfortunately, trying to get this particular issue acknowledged hasn't been received well, and it has been improperly diagnosed since as long as I can remember (going all the way back to the first, free OFF version).

Another problem has been a lack of corroboration; but I've recommended specific tests here and in WOFF that do show how this issue can be readily reproduced, if someone really wants to see it. I doubt very seriously the issue exists in the examples above and yours, but doesn't exist elsewhere. The problem there is people not using criteria that are known to reproduce the problem. For example, it's well known that different time frames (in the war) and different areas, as well as heavier air activity have more of an impact on the performance. So, if you're trying to duplicate this issue, you must use these same factors to get this issue to show up. Sure, there are some videos that might not actually show stuttering that obviously happens in others...but, if we're interested in correcting this issue, why on earth would we rely on examples that don't show the issue? (Especially when there are examples that do show it). If a person claims to not have the issue, good for them - but there are obvious examples showing there is an issue, so it seems a little moot to dismiss it.

One thing's for sure: If it's not discussed (and thereby "finding the link", just as you said) then it will certainly never be improved.

I hear what you are saying. There is also the possibility that there a small number of problems that produce similar symptoms, which is something that should be considered. I will say that it doesn't happen to me too much; when I have noticed it (except in the extreme cases like in the video), it has been outside of combat approaching the patrol area where I expect combat to occur, hence my thought that a new, more granular layer of AI was being loaded as enemies got close. Not that it is a solution or an excuse, but Robert made a utility to back up a character for WOFF, and if I felt that I died because of the program's fault, I would just use that. He has already said that he will be bringing that tool to WOTR, so that might remove some of the death-ier issues. Now, if you are getting the stutter with greater regularity, it may warrant the hours of testing necessary to track down the problem. I will certainly be on the lookout from now on and will try to make video captures of when it happens and the events surrounding it to add to the data, if that helps!

I do remember that when SWAT 4 came out, there was a similar bug that would cause a massive stutter every time the AI decided whether to fire at the player or not that would always leave me dead. I tried loading all the new drivers and reinstalling everything and nothing worked, the game was essentially unplayable...years later I reinstalled on a totally different system and everything worked like a dream! (It ended up being a cool game, btw...) So I still don't know what caused it but feel your frustration!

I am using a solid state drive as well, just to add to the sauce.

Rick

Roberts already made it for WOTR Rick its on the Mod page pal. Here http://www.thatoneplease.co/toolsWOTR.html

Yeah...the problem is, you never know when it will happen. And, although a utility to back up a character might be OK, it doesn't really address the problem in the first place. You have to start over, even if it's just that one flight that's lost. This is kinda like saying it's OK a computer crashes repeatedly, so long as there's a backup kept so that you never lose more than a day (or an hour)...not a solution, and not really much of a workaround, either (with all due respect to RJW and his fine effort to create a much-needed utility, of course).

In lay terms, if you keep getting flat tires, having a spare is only of limited value - sooner or later you need to look at where you're driving.

I haven't commented on the regularity of the issue I've seen, because the problem is you have no way of knowing when or how bad it will be, nor any way of knowing if it will get you killed or disadvantaged (although it's very likely). Moreover, if I'm testing to see if I can find a cause, I'm not generally running scenarios that don't have the issue.

It would be nice to just enjoy the game, but this issue keeps coming up. BTW On that point I just had a look at one of the shorter videos ("Short Sortie") you have on YouTube; I watched for a few minutes and it's happening fairly frequently. Probably not as noticeable because they aren't all the gigantic, half- or 3/4 second long pause, but there are fairly regular, smaller ones. (Mind you, I just glanced at it, so it's not exactly a formal critique...just looking mostly out of curiosity). I'm fairly sure they come from the same source (whatever it is), and it can and does turn into the longer, more noticeable 'pauses' at times (didn't watch long enough to see if this happens in your videos).

And, unlike your SWAT4 example, this has been happening since the earliest days of OFF (before WOTR, WOFF UE, OFF BHAHm etc...). I'm sure it seems to get better at times because machines we use are faster and thus show it less, but it's still there. I'm sure it doesn't seem as prevalent when you're changing locations, missions, areas, weather, etc. because these things all seem to affect this issue. Still, no matter the hardware, settings, or individual, it seems fairly obvious that this remains a legitimate issue.

Oh, and regarding my frustration with this - I appreciate your understanding, but my frustration isn't what you might think it is. I understand technical problems; I've worked this kind of stuff for over 35 years, and if it didn't happen, I'd be out of a job. Technical problems don't bother me. My frustration is caused mostly by this issue being blamed on me or my system, while there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. If this is a problem that is caused by lack of expertise or inadequate hardware/configuration, then there are many others with exactly the same issue.

Now, from a logical standpoint, which is more likely: That all these machines, people and configurations have some strange and mysterious problem that no one can identify...or that the obvious factor in common is a performance issue with the sim?

Sweet! I thought there would be a big party! It's a great utility!

kksnowbear: I agree with those points, for me it isn't happening with enough frequency and at a critical point where it is enough for me to do a deep dive into solving it, especially since I will start backing up my character every flight. I will keep looking for a source reason though, and maybe we can put this to bed!
*edit: some of the real small ones might be from shadowplay- I think they happen in other videos too, I will have to review them...thanks for pointing it out!

No worries Rick it is indeed a great utility cheers Robert,and FWIW im not seeing "stutters" or "texture issues" on my rig..Im not lying im not saying Anybody else is either,im just not seeing them..I do have a small FPS drop when starting my engines and initial take-off but im on maximum detail so i can expect it.

I just hope we dont end up going the same way has some posts on the WOFF forum went ie the "Some mods can cause stuttering" and the "A Challenge" thread. Im personnally just seeing a case of Deja Vu. Happy flying all

The purpose of the challenge was to standardize the testing criteria. This is important because of the other variables in trying to reproduce this issue. There is plenty of evidence that you might not see the issue simply because of where you fly, in what conditions, etc - as I explained above. If you don't find that this common practice is valuable, then you needn't participate.

In fact, if you don't have stutters, then you really aren't among the cases where they clearly exist (as evidenced by the 4 videos that have been referenced). It's probably best to stick with the examples that actually do show the problem - and they are there. If you say you don't have the issue, good for you. There others who said they didn't and have posted videos showing the exact same issue that I've seen, that Rick has shown in his video...like the old TV detective used to say: "Just the facts."

Where are the other WOTR simmers that have this "issue" kksnowbear? videos can have issues regarding recording..i.e Fraps Shadowplay etc. Do you honestly believe a recorded video is the same "experience" (stuttering) that you,d get in real "game" time?.

I wondered if its my eyes that doesn,t "see" the issues i am nearly 47 but..i had my eyes tested 5 weeks ago,no issues i dont need glasses. Ive been fortunate that ive never needed them.

Im not going to participate as you put it,id like to see other WOTR simmers post their "issues" here if they have any,and fwiw ive put possibly over 60hrs in WOTR so far in different conditions,lots of flak,and apart from some Small FPS drops at times ive witnessed personnally nothing of what you,ve mentioned. Im not saying there not there ive yet to personnally see them whilst flying on my rig is all im saying. Im certainly not going to trust a video for proof, if i start seeing these issues whilst im flying then il be honest about it

If this was such an "issue" where are the posters regarding it? What about the guys from both forums who do the DiD/combat reports ..the guys who have possibly got over 100+hrs already in the sims are they having Texture issues and/or stutters? id sincerelly like to know

And i do believe its just a carry over from your WOFF "A Challenge" thread in which you would,nt "have" other peoples opinions if they differed from yours. a thread that was done to death where you said and i quote " OK, folks, never mind. I give up. Some here just clearly cannot be reasonable, and I've got better things to do with my time. Many other games that work without all this. Is it worth it? Not all this, no." so whats changed? Do you actually enjoy WOFF/WOTR? if not why are you wasting your time with these "issues" Pol amongst others explained regarding "stutters" on that thread so why not re visit that one as it seems clearly to be the same stuttering "issue/problem" that you have here?

I really don't get why those who say they don't have this problem get all whacked outta shape just because those who have seen it wish to try and resolve it.

Rick's seen it, and if you'd read, you'll see I said earlier it's not at all likely that any recording caused it. One, because I've seen it plenty when I wasn't recording anything, and two because the recording itself doesn't stutter, as evidenced by the fasct that the audio is smooth and uninterrupted. Just the video stutters.

Like I already said, if it doesn't happen for you, great - but focusing on those situations where it isn't happening won't solve it, and doesn't make sense when there are valid examples to be considered.

But why is it more or less the exact same topic that you created on the WOFF forum? i know Ricks seen it but i dont believe its stopping him enjoying the sim(s). Im not getting all whacked outta shape..Resolve what? like i said where are all the WOFF/WOTR simmers if this was a "issue" for them?

My point is..That you bought up this issue and created a thread regarding it over on the WOFF forum. You were given advice,help (i even tried helping myself) and yet you came to no joy personnally regarding the stutter "issue" So what exactly are you trying to achieve here? An answer? You were given them by Pol and others on that thread over 2 years ago but you seem intent on starting the stuttering "issues" all over again. You asked then "Is it worth it"?Not all this, no....So like i said whats changed? I dont believe ive ever seen a positive post made by yourself regarding WOFF/WOTR to me personnally you seem intent on "digging" at it...Im not even sure that you spend any time actually flying/enjoying the sims. Do you honestly just watch vids to pick the "bones" out?

Again, if it doesn't affect you, you needn't involve yourself. It happens. Others have seen it.

A simple discussion shouldn't bother anyone. If you don't want to take part, don't

BTW, I didn't start this particular discussion. Just responding to a request for details about some issues which RJW indicated he might be able to help solve. Again, I don't really get why anyone gets all wound up over this, especially when its apparently nothing that you've experienced.

Ok il ask..Do you personnally fly WOFF/WOTR or just watch the videos? you see these issues 1st hand then i presume? Do you have stutters on other sims/games (i know i do) If so do you post threads and videos on their forums to highlight the "issue"?If not why not.
If you weren.t happy with the answers you got 2 yrs ago what makes you think you,ll get any joy now? like i said and its my opinion..you just seem to want to pick the bones out of the sim to me.

Edit: I know you did,nt start this thread..you started the one over on WOFF (regarding stutters) which eventually got locked. Also Wodin and Robert mentioned textures or graphic glitches? Wasn,t it you that bought stutters up? It's also my opinion that I've yet to see any of what your describing in MY sim time with both sims

Yup, I have flown WOFF, as i explained previously, I've bought and flown every version since the first one (which was actually free). But whether I own the sim or not has absolutely nothing to do with what anyone can see in those videos, and I'm not aware of any law that says I have to own the sim to know what anyone can see. People make and post videos all the time, no reason to get whacked out if the videos show something isn't right.

Yes, I've seen the issues I'm discussing, which is why I mentioned it, and I mentioned about the videos/provided links so that there wouldn't need to be any going on about it being just me or my machine. It's clearly not.

If you read the very first post, you'll see that yes, Wodin did mention graphical glitches. Robert didn't seem to have a problem with what I provided - upon his request for details.

Like I've already said, if you're not experiencing these issues, great. But it really shouldn't bother anyone so much if there is a discussion among those who have experienced this. It's just a discussion after all.

So you ARE comparing video clips to actually flying the sims? You believe video clips (some not all) actually represent real gameplay ,so it's the same thing watching has it is actually flying?..seriously.

I own several triple A games Witcher 3 for example ,watching a video of it is the same as actually playing it? Cmon ..no way. So if I see graphical artefacts or stutters in a Witcher 3 video (which I have btw) I'm going to get them myself in game? (Which I haven't btw)? I own Elite Dangerous and watch videos by Obsidian Ant,the videos I've watched of his are smooth as silk, yet at times whilst I'm actually flying ED I get very noticeable stutters. So what does that tell me? It tells me that watching and playing are 2 totally different experiences and comparing the 2 is quite simply ludicrous IMO.

You've mentioned the "stuttering" on WOTR? On this very thread..So do you own/ have flown said sim? So if not ,by watching a video of it you conclude that it must stutter am I right?

I've read the thread thanks and I Personally believe that your just "trying" to drag up an "issue" that you 1st bought up over 2 yrs ago on a WOFF thread that you started,which like I mentioned eventually got locked.

It doesn't bother me regarding a discussion,if others have the issues regarding what you've posted then by all means they should post. I don't have said issues and so I've posted saying so. I just think that IMO your a bit obsessed with this stutter "issue" and that you just seem want to "prove" yourself right,in what i don't know but that's my gut instinct. You want a discussion regarding these "issues" by Comparing video clips of WOTR to actually flying yourself..priceless. And with that I'm out or we,ll just end up going around in circles,have a good day.

Well, its actually sorta funny, really ...one of the videos I linked was posted to show how well WOFF runs with a certain mod...so...

Apparently when it's showing something good about the sim, it's valid to use a video to demonstrate. But, if it shows an issue...well... then it's not a valid comparison.

Yeah. That makes sense.

So like I said you watch videos to pick the bones out of these sims. You haven't actually flown WOTR have you ,I Personnally don't watch a video to see if somethings good/bad about the sim/game. I play them first hand and/or read reviews and make my decision that way.

Sure anyone can post videos that's their perogative it still doesn't mean that everyone will see/or experience the same scenario IN GAME does it? Exactly like the examples I posted in my previous post. I thought at 1st I was replying to an adult,the silly emojis you seem to enjoy putting up make me think otherwise.

Like I said if anybody has the examples your going on about and they want to post then excellent. I'm pretty sure that most people are actually flying/ enjoying the sim though rather than sitting watching videos to "pick" faults in it. You've made your opinion and I've made mine,that's fine I'm not going to keep going round in circles with you..I'm actually going to fire WOTR up in a few minutes and ENJOY my time with it,which surely is the entire purpose of purchasing video games,to enjoy them

Rick already posted an example of exactly what this discussion involves. He's already said he sees exactly what i do, and that it caused him to collide. Just as i said, an adverse effect on the engagement outcome. I also see the same thing his video shows in other videos, as well as flying first hand myself.

All coincidence I suppose... not connected at all.

Yeah, again, that makes sense

Still don't get why this discussion would bother someone so badly if they don't have the issue being discussed. If you havent seen it, great. No one's forcing anybody to say anything, or to post anything if they dont want to.

Good god..I've read all the posts,I've read what Ricks said il also quote Rick " I agree with those points, for me it isn't happening with enough frequency and at a critical point where it is enough for me to do a deep dive into solving" His quote (and I'm assuming) means that he's perfectly happy with the sim he's flying so far? If he isn't then I'm sure he'll post more regarding it. Who else has posted regarding seeing stuttering? Please enlighten me.

The discussion regarding the "stutter" doesn't bother me it's my gut feeling of you trying to "discredit" if that's the right word..OBD,S sims. 11 pages on a WOFF thread you created kind of nails that feeling for me.

I've asked previously do you see stutters and or texture issues in other sims /gamesyou watch videos of? If so do you post on the appropriate forums about those issues? In fact kksnowbear I've gone past caring..you don't even own WOTR to my knowledge but enjoy picking out faults with it by watching videos..unbelievable. IMO you really need to do more to occupy your time rather than sit and watch videos to pick out texture or stutter "issues" Purchase WOTR take the Hurricane or Emil for a spin,you might actually ENJOY it.

It's up to an individual whether they wish to accept the behavior; that's not what's bring discussed. Whether someone is willing to accept it has no bearing on whether it happens. If Rick's happy with the game, I'm glad. But you can't just dismiss that he has seen the exact thing, just like the videos, etc.

At least he's decent enough to acknowledge the issue, and willing to try to help gather info. I doubt he'd be interested if there really was no issue.

I realize these facts aren't necessarily convenient to your position, but they are what they are.

Seems like it just really bothers you that there's evidence showing that it is an issue, and it's not on any one machine or any one person - yet it does occur in both WOFF and WOTR.

You can choose to get all mad that it shows what it does, sure. Or, we could use the information that's available to try and figure out how to correct it.

But again, if you're not even having the problem, I can't see why you'd be so worried about the discussion...

And still you dodge my questions regarding other sims..But your willing to "drag" OBD,S sims thru the dirt. Posting about stutters on a WOTR thread and you DONT even own the game?? Is it because your 11page WOFF thread regarding stutters got locked..so you thought you'd carry on the subject here Like I've mentioned previously I've never seen a positive post from you regarding OBD,S work. Ok il leave it at that reply if you want (you will) ..have a good day.