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#4439965 - 09/20/18 07:59 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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It's kind of silly to compare WotR, that is essentially CFS3, to CloD. Comparing it to European Air War or old Il-2 is a more just comparison. Then again I find comparisons in general to be silly.


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Wenn ihr sieg im deine Kampf selbst gegen, wirst stark wie Stahl sein.
"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors." - Gaiden Shinji
#4439969 - 09/20/18 08:07 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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It's not there yet Skyhigh but like you say " it has the makings of a fine simulation"
I think what people may forget is..Its what 2 weeks into release? As far has I'm aware there's been no major bugs reported how many releases can say that nowadays? In fact I know of certain sims/games where updates have screwed things up. This series will undoubtedly get better and better..its what OBD does they listen,and if they can improve they will.

I'm more than happy with my purchase and most of all...I'm having fun,and personally to me,that's what matters.


They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
#4439971 - 09/20/18 08:13 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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I got exactly what I paid for, The WoFF experience (a tantalising taste of it) in WW2!


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Wenn ihr sieg im deine Kampf selbst gegen, wirst stark wie Stahl sein.
"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors." - Gaiden Shinji
#4440001 - 09/20/18 10:15 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Originally Posted by Ace_Pilto
It's kind of silly to compare WotR, that is essentially CFS3, to CloD. Comparing it to European Air War or old Il-2 is a more just comparison. Then again I find comparisons in general to be silly.


I agree with you Ace_Pilto. I haven't had a rig to run the newest World War II sims but I've played a lot of IL-2 1946 and if you search around, you'll find me posting over on the SAS Boards for the vpmodpack for that sim - it's a great add on for folks like me who want to bring that sim up to current spec as easily as possible. I still have Falcon BMS installed on my system and plan to revisit it soon as well. In other words, the more flight sims we have, the better. The market has been pretty niche for about twenty years now. The days of multiple sims covering the same period releasing within weeks of each other has been well and truly behind us for some time - so the more lifeblood we have going into this fantastic hobby of ours, the better.

I'm reminded of the original review I read for European Air War back in 1999 when, as a high schooler, I was trying desperately to convince my parents to buy me a World War 2 sim right on the heels of picking up Red Baron 3D. I was so determined I printed the thing off and read it out loud to them. I feel like this closing bit from IGN kind of sums up how I feel about games in general:

The list of good stuff is just as long as the bad. The force feedback is nice. Planes have a good damage model. Bombers will slowly drop out of formation, falling victim to enemy fighters. Strafe a building and soldiers will run out of it. Guns jam when fired in high-G turns (that's a new one). The communication options with your wingmen are effective, with plenty of options. In fact, even having comms in the first place is a positive; neither CFS or WW2F model it. Bombers actually have nose art. Did I mention the subwoofer sounds great? I know it seems this review had listed more bad features than good, but when you throw it all together, this game rises above itself.

We've seen one issue countless times in countless other games: Gameplay will always win out over graphics. If you want eye candy, pick up Combat Flight Simulator or World War II Fighters. If you're looking for a long-term relationship, you can't go wrong with European Air War. It's not perfect, but since when is a successful relationship not about compromise?


And this is where I feel OBD land. Is the CFS 3 engine the latest? Of course not - it's from 2002. But the things they've been able to accomplish with it has been remarkable. You are also talking about a development studio of fewer than ten people - making a full featured game from scratch. So I know going into it that there are going to be compromises - but I feel that those compromises come from the right place, with the right intent. Game development has changed immensely in the last ten years - free to play, DLC, and less-than-complete titles launch with the expectation that gamers will pony up more cash to get more game - it's a part of the market and that's the reality we live in.

But I know that a Phase 1 release of WoTR will be a fully realized campaign of the Battle of Britain with arguably two of the most historically significant aircraft of the event - Hurricane had more kills than the Spitfire (and I LOVE the Spit), and the 109E, well, it's THE fighter of the Luftwaffee's operation. And for the asking price, I think that's fair. Rather than fly online on servers - which I'm not a huge fan of - I get a campaign of the BoB a period which, for me at least, hasn't been worn out yet. (IL-2 1946 sort of gets there but not in a fully realized way and I haven't played Cliffs of Dover). The AI will be bloody difficult, the landscape will be gorgeous, there will be cascading shadows across the cockpit, and the sound design and music will be top notch. I feel that, sometimes as a community, we get so passionate about this hobby we love and what we so desperately want from it, that we get frustrated when our ideals aren't fully realized - regardless of the game. But if you take a step back and look at gaming in general - this is a pretty special place. OBD is a studio with a "done when it's done" mentality and rather than let WoTR sit as vaporware for another five years, we get a taste of it now, and my 35 bucks (or the price of a cheap sushi dinner out) I get to support a studio that cares about the people who buy their sim, who post regularly on the boards, and who will patch a game within days of a glitch appearing. And at least for me, that's a value I'm happy to partake in. Because one day, when these guys hang it up and the rest of the world has moved on to ray tracing and VR and games as a service rather than a console, I'll keep a rig somewhere in my house with WOFF:UE, Falcon 4.0, FSX, Strike Fighters, IL-2 1946, and WoTR (and European Air War if they ever get it running in Windows 10!).

Just my two cents - I've had a lot of coffee today mates, so bear with me.

I'll be heading over to that new store in a few days and picking up my copy as well. Thanks to Pol and Winder and Matt and the rest for all of their hard work.

#4440007 - 09/20/18 10:56 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Adger Offline
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^^ This +1. Great post Captain


They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
#4440016 - 09/20/18 11:21 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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I am enjoying it and really looking forward to new planes and content. What I look for in a sim is historical accuracy and play-ability. WOTR and WOFF both have it. The added bonus is a great community and great support from OBD. I've been around since the early days of OFF and feel like Pol and Winder and many others involved are old friends. I'm here to support, contribute and purchase until the end.

Blessings, CrimsonTide

#4440048 - 09/21/18 02:21 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Thanks for your insights gentlemen and thanks for the welcome.

Comparing one sim to another on a whole might be futile - but my questions were specific for a reason: I asked to compare the fm and dm to CLOD because I enjoyed flying the Emil in that game very much. I never flew a plane in real live - and I only know from written accounts how such a fighter should behave. And anyone who tried to find out how a wwii plane should behave by reading knows: the authors disagree to the extreme. Alone the question weither the 109 outturns a spit or vice versa will be answered in both ways by both sides. (Galland voted Spit, Mölders 109 for example)
So the question was asked to know wether I'd feel at home in the wotr cockpits immediatly or if I had to relearn the aircraft.

From what you told I conclude the FM will differ from clod very notably.

Concerning campaign and ai: bob2wov did a way better job than clod- but it is not running under windows 10 and the graphics- though acceptable is way behind wotr.
Comparisons to woff don't help me unfortunatly since I didn't play it. nevertheless all you told me sounds awesome.
However since you guys obviously didn't play bob2 I will specify my questions:
Does AI use historic formations? (Close/later wide vic for RAF, 4 finger for german fighters and V for german bombers?)
What size can the engagements have? And how well does the pc handle the bigger ones?
What impact has the player on the course of the campaign? (For comparison: in bob2 the raf player could coordinate the whole defence of the isle while german player could plan every single raid. Airfields hit by successfull raids would be out of order for some time and so on.)
What influence has the player on allies in the air? What is the largest formation that could be lead by the player?

Once again looking forward to your opinion smile

One last word: I believe most of you reading this subforum think of wotr as a great game and I in no way want to challenge that view. All I'm trying to figure out is wether or not wotr is the right game for me to invest my time. (All of you who have/had two little children propably know how rare a resource time can become wink )

#4440069 - 09/21/18 09:30 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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WoTR suits my limited time situation very well. There is an air start option so you can fly a career mission in a very short time, if you're on your way home and suddenly don't have time to land you can actually end the mission there and then and it will apply the results. This isn't how I like to play at all, but it it is very helpful in a small child environment.

#4440070 - 09/21/18 09:40 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Hi Mates,

Been through the whole thread. WOFF, and now WOTR is not comparable, cause there is nothing else out there equally to it.

But if you really wanna do so, stay the Timeline of these sims. Cfs3-EAW-il2 (Not the expansions, just the first one) that will be fair.

I enjoy(ed) CLOD a lot, and to be honest, it is barely playable on a vanilla installation. Team Fusion did a Great job for patching clod up.

But its not comparable to cfs3 or Eaw .

Another Thing in this discussion, Is asking for real flight experience. Why? No one here ever experienced a ride in a 1000hp fivehundredsomething kmph fast Wood/metal early warbird. And flying in todays cessnas or pipers is not the same. Those chaps, brave and honorable men, who propably vould,are gone, mostly.


Last edited by LtCasey; 09/21/18 09:41 AM. Reason: Damn autocorrect

"What the hell do I care, I know I got them!" Raul Lufberry

AMD Guy! Ryzen 5 3600, 5700xt, 32gb RAM, 2x nvsme Samsung 250gb (system) 500gb (Game) +100gb Backup Corsair ssd. Watercooled. Win 10 64bit.
#4440079 - 09/21/18 10:47 AM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: LtCasey]  
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Originally Posted by LtCasey
Another Thing in this discussion, Is asking for real flight experience. Why?


Perhaps you should ask Pat_Pattle - after all, that's who raised the point to begin with. Seemed to think it mattered, even though others here - like yourself - have doubted it matters. But he did raise the question.

Interesting...Adger trusts him, because he's "been around". He raises the question about flying in a real Hurricane (as if to imply it matters), yet ever since, people keep asking why it should matter.

Heck, he's the one who apparently felt it matters, not me or anyone else. But he's been around, which is evidently a trustworthy credential of itself.

So, let's see:

  • Someone starts a thread asking for comparisons.
  • Space_Ghost posts a few not-so-flattering perspectives (but which are his own observations, and which were requested by the OP).
  • Several others also posted their perspectives.
  • Pat_Pattle then asks Space_Ghost if he's ever flown a real hurricane. (Although it's not absolute, it would certainly seem the point of this would be to somehow discredit aforementioned less-than-flattering perspectives.)
  • I then asked if Pat_Pattle meant that it was necessary to have experience in a real Hurricane to have an opinion on the sim, and therefore whether others who had posted opinions would also require said experience.
  • Then, various posters began saying you can't compare real life to the sim, and it doesn't matter whether you have flown a Hurricane, because the sim is a game and it's about fun. (OK, sure. But then, there was only one person who actually brought up about flying a real life Hurricane...so, if it doesn't matter, why'd it get brought up?)
  • Later on, someone says they trust the person who brought up what apparently doesn't matter, based on general worldly experience.

OK...

General worldly experience apparently makes a trustworthy opinion concerning a flight sim, but actual flight experience apparently does not. (Fair enough, but does make one wonder why real life experience was asked about, as such)

And even though many in this thread don't feel as if real flight experience is any basis for objective observation about the sim, that very point was raised by the trusted person with general worldly experience. (Which means...hmm...we should trust someone who raises a question that doesn't matter...?)

Hmm. I dunno. Seems rather...circular. To me anyway.

But, hey, what do I know? biggrin biggrin biggrin

You guys are more fun than flying ever was. (Yes, the real-life kind).



Last edited by kksnowbear; 09/21/18 10:48 AM.
#4440092 - 09/21/18 12:15 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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No sim compares to real flying, they're all garbage compared to the real thing. Better off simulating the world and the player's place in it than obsessing over graphics, physics and guestimated engine management/avionics. WoFF /WoTR gets the true meaning of simulation down in spades. It simulates the experience of survival. THat's why it stands head and shoulders over supposedly "superior" "sims" for me.


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Wenn ihr sieg im deine Kampf selbst gegen, wirst stark wie Stahl sein.
"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors." - Gaiden Shinji
#4440098 - 09/21/18 12:54 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Originally Posted by Ace_Pilto
No sim compares to real flying, they're all garbage compared to the real thing. Better off simulating the world and the player's place in it than obsessing over graphics, physics and guestimated engine management/avionics. WoFF /WoTR gets the true meaning of simulation down in spades. It simulates the experience of survival. THat's why it stands head and shoulders over supposedly "superior" "sims" for me.


Well, again, I suppose this refers back to the person who started the 'real Hurricane' bit. So...I guess what you're saying is that maybe it's not a good idea to trust the one who brought up real-life flying...? (Just a guess, mind you)

BTW I think I could name a few organizations that would take exception to your opinion about the 'true meaning' of simulation. The US Navy and NASA come to mind. But I guess they wouldn't know anything about the 'true' meaning of simulations, after all they only use simulators to train for the likelihood of life-or-death experiences...nothing at all to compare to a computer game.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I pursued flight sims because quite bluntly I couldn't afford the real-life hobby.

Even though I know first hand they're not the same thing, I still look for a certain level of fidelity and comparison to the real thing...we all do, else we could all just as soon be playing a train simulator.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 09/21/18 12:55 PM.
#4440103 - 09/21/18 01:21 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Ace_Pilto]  
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Originally Posted by Ace_Pilto
-snip-

WoFF /WoTR gets the true meaning of simulation down in spades. It simulates the experience of survival. THat's why it stands head and shoulders over supposedly "superior" "sims" for me.


Wow. screwy rofl

#4440109 - 09/21/18 01:51 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: ChiefWH]  
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Originally Posted by ChiefWH
WoTR suits my limited time situation very well. There is an air start option so you can fly a career mission in a very short time, if you're on your way home and suddenly don't have time to land you can actually end the mission there and then and it will apply the results. This isn't how I like to play at all, but it it is very helpful in a small child environment.


Thanks - agreed. That is not the best way to experience such a sim, but having that option is terrific when time is an issue! smile

#4440113 - 09/21/18 02:20 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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Eisenfaust,
To your questions. The RAF uses a V formation. I have not flown for the Germans much so can"t really say. With the RAF your missions will either be scramble or patrol. Either one can be either 1 or 2 flights consisting of 6 or 7 planes each. If your squadron gets beat up and your replacement pilots and machines have not arrived this number could be less.

As far as size of engagements, I have run into a few 109's, a lone bomber trying to get home or a lot. Usually, there will be a flight of 3 to 5 bombers escorted by 110's or 109's. I turned on the labels one time and there were a lot of Stuka's below but I don't know how many. There also can be another fight going on a few miles away with another squadron. You can see them if you turn on labels but if you do not use them you will never know they were there. I would dare say , as I have never counted, there could be 20 machines in your immediate vicinity. More than you can cope with anyway.

I have a pretty robust machine so mine has handled everything smooth as silk once I got everything dialed in. OBD has made it easy to adjust your graphics to get things to run smooth.

The players really can only impact his squadron. Keep your guys out of trouble and alive and they get better with time. Not sure how long airfields stay out once bombed but I did make a dead stick landing at an airfield that had just been bombed, I had no choice, and went arse over tea kettle in a bomb crater.

The largest formation you will lead is your flight. I start as a lowly pilot and work my way up so it might be some time before I lead a flight. You can however enlist with some rank and you will be leading a flight, up to 7 planes, straight away. Or you can check "always lead" if you want to suspend reality a bit.

I hope this has answered your questions. Hope to see you in the skies soon.
Mark


Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from either end.
BOC Member since....I can't remember!
#4440114 - 09/21/18 02:36 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Eisenfaust]  
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What impact has the player on the course of the campaign? (For comparison: in bob2 the raf player could coordinate the whole defence of the isle while german player could plan every single raid. Airfields hit by successfull raids would be out of order for some time and so on.)

- Not in WOTR. Airfields, including your own will be fully functional with all buildings intact the next mission even if all buildings/runways were destroyed. I can only comment on the mission file which is auto-generated. That is why JJJ is working on a mission editor which will enable you to alter a few things in the mission, but no effect on the overall course of the campaign for other airfields. No control over the fate of other airfields or campaign. WOTR only keeps track of your squadron and the impact of the war on it during the course of the campaign.



Last edited by OldHat; 09/21/18 03:19 PM. Reason: corrections
#4440143 - 09/21/18 06:58 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Space_Ghost]  
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Originally Posted by Space_Ghost

Wow. screwy rofl


Every time I read your dribble I think “agenda.” So what is yours? What are your trying to prove besides me wishing SimHQ had a “Ignore” function.

#4440146 - 09/21/18 07:17 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Chucky Online sosad
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Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Originally Posted by Space_Ghost

Wow. screwy rofl


Every time I read your dribble I think “agenda.” So what is yours? What are your trying to prove besides me wishing SimHQ had a “Ignore” function.

View profile,click ignore.


EV's are the Devils matchbox.
#4440147 - 09/21/18 07:22 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Originally Posted by Space_Ghost

Wow. screwy rofl


Every time I read your dribble I think “agenda.” So what is yours? What are your trying to prove besides me wishing SimHQ had a “Ignore” function.


You're a grown man, I think you're going to be alright.

#4440153 - 09/21/18 08:18 PM Re: Comparison to other Sims [Re: Chucky]  
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High over the Front

Originally Posted by Chucky
Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Originally Posted by Space_Ghost

Wow. screwy rofl


Every time I read your dribble I think “agenda.” So what is yours? What are your trying to prove besides me wishing SimHQ had a “Ignore” function.

View profile,click ignore.


And done. Thank you.

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