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#4434858 - 08/19/18 03:39 PM Discovered the worst POS aircraft  
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Nowi Offline
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I started a career as an American, something I've never done before in WOFF. I'm flying with the 147th Aero Squadron. The unit is loaded with "Named Aces," and almost all of them suck with Zero kills.

But I'm flying what has to be the biggest piece of crap in the entire WOFFWORLD--the Nieuport 28! Good God!

I've flown sixteen sorties, and had system failures on five of them!

You can't dive past 140 mph without risking over dive damage. I just had my first run in with Fokker DVIIs. Wow! Excitement. We had numbers (7-5) and altitude, about two thousand feet of it. I chopped my throttle and we engaged, and I quickly saw the dreaded "over dive damage" warning. I started to turn with a Fokker, and the fabric on my lower wing started tearing off. I limped back to a forward airfield and landed, thankful to be alive.

Despite our advantages, my flight scored zero kills on the Fokkers. Several other 28s were damaged.

Fortunately, I'm assured that we will start receiving SPADs in another fortnight. If I live that long.


Nowi
#4434866 - 08/19/18 04:09 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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Guess I’ll be the oddball and say I like the N28.
Just gotta fly to its strengths and avoid the weaknesses.
Course I like Nieuports in general so perhaps I’m biased.
Do you fly/like the N17? The 28 is just it’s big brother and needs to be flown the same way.

#4434868 - 08/19/18 04:14 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Nowi, I also was surprised at how poorly I did in the N28 also.

Originally Posted by DukeIronHand

Just gotta fly to its strengths and avoid the weaknesses.


And just what are its strengths in WOFF UE?

Last edited by Stache; 08/19/18 04:16 PM.

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#4434870 - 08/19/18 04:23 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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Polovski Online content
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smile and a fine welcome to the war. They fixed the lower wings losing canvas at some point - but those foibles are what makes it all interesting. One day maybe we'll do the Siemens Schuckert D.III perhaps one of the finest aircraft of the war and it's superb but terribly unreliable engine to even it up some mwhahahaa.. and then we can have the D.IV arriving that fixes all that.. but too far late.


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#4434872 - 08/19/18 04:32 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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this reminds me of my very first flight simulator: Damon Slye's "Red Baron". where I did everything in my power to avoid the Airco DH.2. the reason being is that sometimes you would have a scramble mission and your engine wouldn't even start! it would crank up and then sputter out over and over again. (aircraft unreliability has been a feature of good flight sims for a long time!)

this is 'good' bad news for me!

by the time I had actually flown the Nieuport 28 in HitR I had already put in a lot of time in Nieuports and Albatros D.IIIs... so, it didn't feel that bad. you just REALLY have to treat it like a delicate little flower!

#4434882 - 08/19/18 05:16 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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Have now looked at the xfm files for the Nieup. 28 and the various subtypes of Fokk. D.VII and the performance figures for it look pretty good gents - WOFFue gives you the later, 160hp variant of the N.28 and the top speed is slightly better, in the sim, than even on the Fokk. D.VIIf (BMW variant). Climb rate on it is also very good, better than on the Mercedes-powered D.VII, slightly worse than on the BMW-variant - it looks about historical to me. So its qualities include speed and climb rate.

I will however tweak the max. damage speed limit, G rating, also a few other subtleties regarding engine, prop and rudder, and aileron sensitivity - and will include the alternative xfm with my little FM tweaks pack. Testing of the Spad 7 variants is proceeding successfully. No crashes as with the modded Se5a.

Von S copter

#4434899 - 08/19/18 06:57 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Fokker IV and a Siemens Schuckert ? Oh be still my beating Heart. I never had a N28 Career, but I did enjoy the N10,N11, N 17

#4434907 - 08/19/18 07:34 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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One day maybe we'll do the Siemens Schuckert D.III perhaps one of the finest aircraft of the war and it's superb but terribly unreliable engine to even it up some mwhahahaa.. and then we can have the D.IV arriving that fixes all that.. but too far late.


HE said maybe,....is it too premature to get excited?

#4434914 - 08/19/18 07:53 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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Man, I guess you haven't tried the Nieuport 16 yet?

#4434916 - 08/19/18 08:10 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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The worst has to be the Fokker eindeckers. They may have been a scourge against unarmed planes but they are completely outclassed by anything else. And if you take even one hit you're lucky to be able to land them safely.

#4434921 - 08/19/18 09:09 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Stache]  
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Originally Posted by Stache
Nowi, I also was surprised at how poorly I did in the N28 also.

Originally Posted by DukeIronHand

Just gotta fly to its strengths and avoid the weaknesses.


And just what are its strengths in WOFF UE?


Turn and climb. Climb and turn. Keep your altitude. Depending on the enemy type his nose will drop.
Get above your enemy slightly (and I mean slightly - no steep power diving!), cut your throttle and use your energy to close and shoot. Another climbing turn and do it again. Works for me.

#4434928 - 08/19/18 10:30 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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As I understand it, the documentation I've seen indicates the N28 was intended/considered as a machine more about maneuverability than diving - more 'turn and burn', less 'boom and zoom'. The SPADs were, of course, the screaming divers. Some outfits were very happy to get the SPAD replacements, some still preferred the N28. I would imagine this was an extension of the preferred method of fighting.

Interestingly, I'm also given the impression that it was the upper wing that suffered failures, historically - not the lower one as stated above. Leading edge failures in steep dives, IIRC.

I believe lower wing failures were a distinction shared among the V-strut sesquiplanes - like the earlier Noops and Albatros DIII / DV - which the N28 certainly was not. The problem was 'twisting' of the wing at higher speed (dive), owing to the single mount point of the V strut's bottom. I could be wrong, but I believe this was among the reasons the N28 actually had dual struts - it being the first production Nieuport model so equipped.

FWIW, just my $0.02

#4434934 - 08/19/18 11:14 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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I like the N-28, too. Some of the worst aircraft are Morane 'Parasols', Fokker Eindekkers and some two-holers. So far the most 'entertaining' aircraft I fly are Hannover CL, Pfalz D-III and DH-5. They are just decent enough to get you into trouble that you have to fight to get away. I absolutely love flying Fokker Drls! A big reason my pilot might perish in those is due to mid-airs. I tend to cut it pretty close! I will take on five Camels or SEs any day. I could care less how many SPADs are in a flight because I'll just swoop down and get head shots then swoop back up. It's just like shooting fish in a barrel and seems unsportsmanlike but my CO insists...es ist der Krieg!

#4434936 - 08/19/18 11:31 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
As I understand it, the documentation I've seen indicates the N28 was intended/considered as a machine more about maneuverability than diving - more 'turn and burn', less 'boom and zoom'. The SPADs were, of course, the screaming divers. Some outfits were very happy to get the SPAD replacements, some still preferred the N28. I would imagine this was an extension of the preferred method of fighting.

Interestingly, I'm also given the impression that it was the upper wing that suffered failures, historically - not the lower one as stated above. Leading edge failures in steep dives, IIRC.

I believe lower wing failures were a distinction shared among the V-strut sesquiplanes - like the earlier Noops and Albatros DIII / DV - which the N28 certainly was not. The problem was 'twisting' of the wing at higher speed (dive), owing to the single mount point of the V strut's bottom. I could be wrong, but I believe this was among the reasons the N28 actually had dual struts - it being the first production Nieuport model so equipped.

FWIW, just my $0.02


Going by memory it was not a “wing failure” per se (as in spars and struts) but a “wing fabric failure.”
The speed/stress of a dive (or a sudden pullout) would tear the fabric from the leading edge of the wing leading to loss of lift depending on how much fabric was lost. If too much of the lift surface was gone the wing was, essentially and aerodynamically, gone.
The Nieuport Company eventually figured out the problem and fixed it but by then the Americans had moved on to Spads.

#4434938 - 08/19/18 11:48 PM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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VonS Offline
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Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Originally Posted by kksnowbear
As I understand it, the documentation I've seen indicates the N28 was intended/considered as a machine more about maneuverability than diving - more 'turn and burn', less 'boom and zoom'. The SPADs were, of course, the screaming divers. Some outfits were very happy to get the SPAD replacements, some still preferred the N28. I would imagine this was an extension of the preferred method of fighting.

Interestingly, I'm also given the impression that it was the upper wing that suffered failures, historically - not the lower one as stated above. Leading edge failures in steep dives, IIRC.

I believe lower wing failures were a distinction shared among the V-strut sesquiplanes - like the earlier Noops and Albatros DIII / DV - which the N28 certainly was not. The problem was 'twisting' of the wing at higher speed (dive), owing to the single mount point of the V strut's bottom. I could be wrong, but I believe this was among the reasons the N28 actually had dual struts - it being the first production Nieuport model so equipped.

FWIW, just my $0.02


Going by memory it was not a “wing failure” per se (as in spars and struts) but a “wing fabric failure.”
The speed/stress of a dive (or a sudden pullout) would tear the fabric from the leading edge of the wing leading to loss of lift depending on how much fabric was lost. If too much of the lift surface was gone the wing was, essentially and aerodynamically, gone.
The Nieuport Company eventually figured out the problem and fixed it but by then the Americans had moved on to Spads.


Always enjoy reading these technical debates....thanks for them gents' - reminds me of the best posts on the Aerodrome website. Originally it was thought that the fabric seam on the top wings of the N.28 was too close to the leading edge of the wings...causing fabric tear in steep dives. The latest theory is that too much spacing between ribs connecting with the leading edge spar, on the top wings, would lead to structural damage of the leading edge in steep dives - thereby causing the fabric tear and sometimes the leading edge section to disappear. The 28a variant apparently fixed the problem but showed up too late to be used in the war - although it made for a good stunt plane for barnstorming in the '20s.

Here's some more thorough info. on the N28 top wing problems:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showpost.php?p=305036&postcount=17

Von S smile2

Last edited by VonS; 08/19/18 11:53 PM. Reason: Added link.
#4434950 - 08/20/18 01:50 AM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: VonS]  
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Originally Posted by VonS
Always enjoy reading these technical debates....thanks for them gents' - reminds me of the best posts on the Aerodrome website. Originally it was thought that the fabric seam on the top wings of the N.28 was too close to the leading edge of the wings...causing fabric tear in steep dives. The latest theory is that too much spacing between ribs connecting with the leading edge spar, on the top wings, would lead to structural damage of the leading edge in steep dives - thereby causing the fabric tear and sometimes the leading edge section to disappear. The 28a variant apparently fixed the problem but showed up too late to be used in the war - although it made for a good stunt plane for barnstorming in the '20s.

Here's some more thorough info. on the N28 top wing problems:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showpost.php?p=305036&postcount=17

Von S smile2


Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Going by memory it was not a “wing failure” per se (as in spars and struts) but a “wing fabric failure.”
The speed/stress of a dive (or a sudden pullout) would tear the fabric from the leading edge of the wing leading to loss of lift depending on how much fabric was lost. If too much of the lift surface was gone the wing was, essentially and aerodynamically, gone.
The Nieuport Company eventually figured out the problem and fixed it but by then the Americans had moved on to Spads.


I guess my point(s) were that:

a. It wasn't the bottom wing, as stated earlier in the thread, but the top wing that had the reputation for failing. Nothing I've read says anything about bottom wings failing. Bottom wing failures were associated frequently with V strut planes, for reasons as I outlined above, and the N28 was the first Noop built with dual struts, presumably to preclude the V strut problems that prior Noops had.

b. It wasn't fabric that failed. The top wing had a plywood leading edge (as I understand it) and that's what failed - taking the fabric with it.

Again, just my understanding. I could be wrong.

#4434971 - 08/20/18 08:17 AM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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No, looks like per the link above, you are correct. It wasn’t just a “fabric” issue. Looks like poor design and workmanship in addition. There are several photos of the after effect around. See if I can find them.
I’ll re-read the thread and see how the bottom wing fits into this. I’m assuming that’s how it’s represented in the game? Can’t recall ever having a wing issue with the N28.

EDIT: Using my phone there are a ton of N28 photos but I didn’t see one showing the damage. Know some are around as I have seen them. I’ll try on the big machine later unless someone beats me to it.

Last edited by DukeIronHand; 08/20/18 08:26 AM.
#4434974 - 08/20/18 08:40 AM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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In service, the Nieuport 28 had a good performance, due to the aircraft’s good maneuverability, impressive rate of climb and speed. But the fighter also had several issues. The most well known was the tendency to shed its upper wing fabric if the pilot pulled out of a steep dive too quickly. The problem was not the dive, but the pull out that wrecked the wing. Pilots, such as the ace Harold E. Hartney, noticed that despite the deformed appearance of the failed upper wings, in most cases control of the aircraft was maintained and the machines could land safely.


[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Quote
The upper wing of the Nieuport 28 failed because the wing rib failed in its function of transferring the heavy loads encountered at the leading edge of the wing to the main spar. The portion of the rib forward of the main spar was poorly designed and so structurally weak as to concentrate the shear and bending moment force on the veneer above the wing and the very thin cap strip below. These structures were inadequate to the task. The fix (nailing and gluing a wood strip or batten atop the veneer) adopted after the spate of accidents added nominal strength to the top of the leading edge of the upper wing, but it did not address what was principally lacking in the rib construction. A shear tie is required to securely connect the web to the spar and add the necessary rigidity forward of the main spar to manage the heavy shear and bending forces.Extending the top cap strip forward to the leading edge would have added strength to the entering edge with a minimal weight penalty. Some officers believed that the wing's leading edge stuck out too far forward of the main spar. James Meissner, for one, said this during his appearance before the Congressional Committee in 1919. A postwar caution to airfoil designers held that the leading edge should be as short and rigid as possible. There is some evidence that a secure attachment of the leading edge to the main spar was a more important consideration than the length of the leading edge itself. However, there is no evidence that the Air Service considered these modifications at the time the problems with the Nieuport 28's upper wings occurred.


Quote
Poor wartime workmanship and materials were also contributing factors. During the restoration of a Nieuport 28 at the National Air & Space Museum's Paul Garber Facility, we found evidence of carelessly driven nails in examples of original wing ribs that weakened the rib and, also, minimal use of casein glue (a derivative of milk curd) that is not waterproof.

Attached Files 800x_N28_Meissner2.jpgN28_Meissner1.jpg
Last edited by ArisFuser; 08/20/18 09:04 AM.
#4434977 - 08/20/18 08:52 AM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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Your Google-Fu is stronger then mine!

#4434979 - 08/20/18 09:03 AM Re: Discovered the worst POS aircraft [Re: Nowi]  
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Correct the upper wing was the canvas problem was just following on from the comments above and didn't stop to think.
WOTR work has broken my mind - that's my excuse.


Last edited by Polovski; 08/20/18 09:04 AM.

Regards,

Polovski,
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