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#4431159 - 07/20/18 04:55 PM Another veteran from the Great War  
Joined: Jun 2001
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Forward Observer Offline
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Forward Observer  Offline
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I got this in last week and sort of borrowed part of the title of KrazyKunuck's post about WWI vets.

Pictured below is my 100 year old "new to me" example of a surviving US .30 caliber model 1917 bolt action rifle manufactured for the government by Winchester. The barrel is stamped 5-18 and It also has a Winchester marked M1917 bayonet attached. This rifle is sometimes referred to as the American Enfield or incorrectly as the P1917 instead of the M1917. To keep with the theme are two reproduction prints of original WWI posters--one the well known Uncle Sam US Army recruiting poster created by Montgomery Flagg and the other for a Liberty bond drive. In addition is an original WWI German helmet shell and an M1917 US helmet. (actually a post war model with better suspension) I stuck a paper label on it recreating the emblem of the "All American" 82nd Infantry division. This was Alvin C. York's parent division, which eventually became the 82nd Airborne in WW II. The web gear items are post WWI models, but essentially identical to those used in WWI. Lastly, is a WWI rifle manual and a 1st day issue envelope with a Sgt. York US commemorative stamp from 2000.

[Linked Image]

Although the Springfield 1903 was the official main battle rifle of the US armed forces going into WWI--and remained so until its subsequent variants were replaced by the M1 Garand in WWII, it was not the most used in WWI by the US. Here's a generic picture of the 1903.
[Linked Image]

I don't have a 1903, but do own one of the later 1903a3 models which are more common to the early WWII period. The most notable difference in the later model was the elimination of the
open sight in front of the receiver, which was replaced by an adjustable aperture (peep) sight to the rear of the receiver.

When the US entered the war in 1917, they committed to send about 2 million combatants to France. Unfortunately, they only had about 600k usable Springfield 1903's in inventory. The only manufacturer in operation was the government run Springfield armory--which simply did not have the capacity to come up with the extra 2 million or so rifles need in such a short time. There also wasn't time to set up any other private arms factories to produce the 1903 from scratch.

Luckily, Winchester, Remington, and Eddystone (a Remington subsidiary) were just coming to the end of a two year contract production run of a supplemental Enfield rifle for the British government. The Brits had also been caught with a rifle shortage when the war started in 1914. This rifle was known as the pattern 1914 and was chambered in the British .303. Somebody in the US war department came up with the idea to utilize this same rifle to solve the US shortfall. To eliminate the logistical problem of managing two different rifle cartridges, the decision was made to simply convert the Enfield to shoot .30-06. US caliber.

The US purchased the tooling from the Brits, rechambered it to the US .30-06, and renamed it the US model 1917. Two million were produced by 1918 with most going to France. On the battlefield and in the trenches, the M1917 was present in a ratio of about 3 to 1 over the Springfield. Most of the Doughboys who had experience with both rifles preferred the 1903. It was 2 inches shorter and almost a pound lighter than the Enfield although the Enfield had the combat advantage of an aperture (peep) sight system. They were both good rifles, but the Springfield length and weight made it a bit easier to handle. Alvin C. York even mentioned in his diary that he had to turn his Springfield in and in return was issued a British gun, but it evidently served him well in earning his MOH.

A discovery around 15 years ago of the actual site where York's combat action took place yielded more than enough spent cartridges and projectiles to prove that unlike the Gary Cooper movie, which showed him using the M1903 and a P-08 luger to earn his MOH, he instead used the M1917 rifle and the standard M1911 auto service pistol

The M1917 was never intended to replace the M1903, but just to supplement it for the war. When the war ended and the armistice signed by late 1918, all production for the US Enfield was halted. After the war, all of the M1917's were returned to the states and dispersed to various arsenals around the country where they were repaired and/or refurbished, then mothballed in storage. Some were pulled out in WWII for training, and some sent overseas to allies.

By 1945, they were declared obsolete and the US started selling them off through the various surplus outlets--including the CMP. Some were also donated to various guard and VFW ceremonial drill teams. Many of these had much of the metal chrome plated for show

I can still remember as a kid in the 1950's going into the local Army-Navy store with my buddies to pick up a few pieces of dirt cheap surplus web gear to play army with and seeing stacks of old military bolt actions of all kinds with prices ranging from $25 to $35. That was close to a week's pay for a working stiff back then. There were also mail order adverts in all of the hunting and fishing magazines with the same kind of pricing. Unfortunately, the vast majority of these old milsurps were sporterized for hunting by milling off the military sights, then drilling and tapping for scopes along with adding stylish monte carlo type hunting stocks

Here's one of the better known sellers who ran such ads as late as the mid 1960's. To put these prices into perspective. $30 from 1960 equates to $260 in today's money and $40 equates to $344. Still not a bad prices for a Springfield, Enfield, Mauser, or a nice P-08 luger.

[Linked Image]

Cheers

P.S. Sources

Winchester--An American Legend by R.L. Wilson
For Collectors only--British Enfield Rifles Vol 4--Pattern 1914 and US model of 1917
August cover article for the American Rifleman magazine--NRA monthly publication
Wikipedia for for dates and other supplemental data




Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4431160 - 07/20/18 05:15 PM Re: Another veteran from the Great War [Re: Forward Observer]  
Joined: Apr 2006
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Vitesse Offline
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Vitesse  Offline
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Devon UK
Thanks for the history lesson FO, an interesting read.

#4431162 - 07/20/18 05:19 PM Re: Another veteran from the Great War [Re: Forward Observer]  
Joined: Apr 2001
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PanzerMeyer Offline
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Offline
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King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
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Miami, FL USA
Oh wow, a Tokarev for 35 bucks?? Original M40 Tokarevs can easily run you over 2k now!


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4431169 - 07/20/18 06:01 PM Re: Another veteran from the Great War [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,802
Forward Observer Offline
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Forward Observer  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,802
Central Arkansas,US of A
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Oh wow, a Tokarev for 35 bucks?? Original M40 Tokarevs can easily run you over 2k now!


When I was in high school these kinds of adverts were common in hunting-fishing-gun sport magazines. I can also remember seeing M1 carbines for maybe $40-50 and M1 Garands for $75. You probably can't make out the ammo listings in that ad, but most have milsurp ammo in 100 round lots for $4 to $6, which is 4 to 6 cents per round.

It's all relative. Just think if one had the foresight to buy $1000 worth of Walmart stock when they went public in the mid 1970's and then held on to it through multiple 2 for 1 splits for 20 or 30 years. You'd be a billionaire today.

Cheers


Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
#4431171 - 07/20/18 06:20 PM Re: Another veteran from the Great War [Re: Forward Observer]  
Joined: Mar 2011
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cichlidfan Offline
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cichlidfan  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Woodbridge, VA, USA
Originally Posted by Forward Observer
It's all relative. Just think if one had the foresight to buy $1000 worth of Walmart stock when they went public in the mid 1970's and then held on to it through multiple 2 for 1 splits for 20 or 30 years. You'd be a billionaire today.


True of so many investment opportunities from our past. Intel, MS, Amazon and Google among many.


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