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#4428411 - 07/01/18 11:40 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by bisher
Okay Ice. What community has an ear to ED and is ruining this game by making excuses? I would like to kick their ass smile

Go to the official forums and have a field day smile



Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Originally Posted by - Ice
Sure. Suggest a better, more fitting term? Either way, you've already helped me prove my point. Thanks!

What have you proven that we didn't know? As for a more fitting term? You've been informed of the facts I guess? smile

I've already stated the point twice; feel free to re-read previous posts. Thanks again!


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
It's more likely you'll never perform a missile avoidance maneuver smile
Calculations are done at all times - there's just no coordination.

Sorry, what??? I can't see how that connects with my statement. Why would I never perform a missile avoidance maneuver; read: go defensive?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Quote
No, you claimed each client simulates each missile independently.... so does each client simulate the FM of each aircraft independently as well? ie, in a dogfight, your client simulates the FM of the missile and the FM of both our aircraft and my client separately simulates the FM of the missile and the FM of both our aircraft? It was kind of a rhetorical question, obviously if each client calculates the FM of each asset in the air --- aircraft, weapons, missiles, etc, then the game is doing a lot of work it does not need to.

Right.

Good.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
It isn't broken ... what it is, is old.

It's old and broken. Maybe it would pass for when we had 56K modems and could blame it on that but in 2018? I would like to hear how you can say it's not broken?


- Ice
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#4428586 - 07/02/18 02:11 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
I've already stated the point twice; feel free to re-read previous posts. Thanks again!


If your point is that the algo should be updated, sure, otherwise, you don't have one smile


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Sorry, what??? I can't see how that connects with my statement. Why would I never perform a missile avoidance maneuver; read: go defensive?


Because when this desync happens the missile might not even look like it's coming at you at all.


Quote
It's old and broken. Maybe it would pass for when we had 56K modems and could blame it on that but in 2018? I would like to hear how you can say it's not broken?


The same way a 1970's car engine isn't broken, even though it isn't nearly as clean or efficient as a modern car engine. Just because you want to call things broken, doesn't mean they are. This thing is doing its job as intended with known caveats.


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#4428598 - 07/02/18 03:13 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
If your point is that the algo should be updated, sure, otherwise, you don't have one smile

Nope, not that one. Try again.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Quote
Sorry, what??? I can't see how that connects with my statement. Why would I never perform a missile avoidance maneuver; read: go defensive?

Because when this desync happens the missile might not even look like it's coming at you at all.

I was talking about just slight differences in missile location as displayed by the sim (such as that in the gif), now you're talking about a massive discrepancy? And a discrepancy that occurs for most if not all of the missile's time of flight, and is not corrected? The aircraft just explodes?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Quote
It's old and broken. Maybe it would pass for when we had 56K modems and could blame it on that but in 2018? I would like to hear how you can say it's not broken?

The same way a 1970's car engine isn't broken, even though it isn't nearly as clean or efficient as a modern car engine. Just because you want to call things broken, doesn't mean they are. This thing is doing its job as intended with known caveats.

Well, this isn't a 1970's car engine now is it? How old is ED MP code, really? If there's a Vikhr in it, so that's BS released in 2008 at least. Are you telling me that the MP code has not been changed/updated/fixed in over 10+ years? Good God! But at least we have correct wing vapors and droplets rendered on the canopy, huh? Shows what is priority in a COMBAT simulator with an emphasis on MP.

How does this tie in with Sobek's claim that the netcode is advanced?


- Ice
#4428638 - 07/02/18 08:42 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
How does this tie in with Sobek's claim that the netcode is advanced?


In that it takes several years to master all the engineering concepts involved in writing net code.

Last edited by Sobek; 07/02/18 08:43 PM.
#4428642 - 07/02/18 09:33 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: Sobek]  
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So is the netcode advanced, Sobek? Or is it old? Or did you mean it was advanced when it was made all those many years ago but not it's no longer advanced but rather it's old? biggrin

Originally Posted by Sobek
In that it takes several years to master all the engineering concepts involved in writing net code.

And how many years has ED been in business now? How many more years do they need?


- Ice
#4428681 - 07/03/18 04:03 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Ice would you like a lamp to go with your questioning? wink

Ice these guys offer an explanation for an errant missile and now they are suddenly expected to answer for ED?

You are funneling poster opinion to fit your narrative.

I don't disagree with what you are saying but I take exception to how you say it




#4428688 - 07/03/18 06:40 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
So is the netcode advanced, Sobek? Or is it old? Or did you mean it was advanced when it was made all those many years ago but not it's no longer advanced but rather it's old? biggrin


Both. As already mentioned, it has some caveats that need work because the state of the art has improved a bit. That doesn't mean that they screwed up when they wrote it.

#4428690 - 07/03/18 07:10 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted by Sobek
Originally Posted by - Ice
So is the netcode advanced, Sobek? Or is it old? Or did you mean it was advanced when it was made all those many years ago but not it's no longer advanced but rather it's old? biggrin


Both. As already mentioned, it has some caveats that need work because the state of the art has improved a bit. That doesn't mean that they screwed up when they wrote it.



Well, client/server netcode isn't exactly a breakthrough in technology. You have to ask the question why on Earth ED uses a mechanism whereby missile flight is calculated on every single client.......it can only ever mean that due to every client having different network overheads and performance then there are different missile flight coordinates being reported to the server. A 2 year old could see that is ridiculous and the more clients there are, the bigger the problem.
l


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#4428691 - 07/03/18 07:25 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
You have to ask the question why on Earth ED uses a mechanism whereby missile flight is calculated on every single client.......it can only ever mean that due to every client having different network overheads and performance then there are different missile flight coordinates being reported to the server.


There is no better fix to this. Planes and missiles cover huge distances between network update ticks. If each client didn't perform some form of dead reckoning in between network updates, you as a client would see missiles and planes jumping all over the place *all the time*. There are some things you can do to make sure that there is less desynchronisation between the phantom and the actual missile/plane/whatever, but unless you're on a LAN, you have zero chance of updating all clients fast enough without them doing dead reckoning.

Last edited by Sobek; 07/03/18 07:32 AM.
#4428692 - 07/03/18 07:58 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted by Sobek
Originally Posted by Paradaz
You have to ask the question why on Earth ED uses a mechanism whereby missile flight is calculated on every single client.......it can only ever mean that due to every client having different network overheads and performance then there are different missile flight coordinates being reported to the server.


There is no better fix to this. Planes and missiles cover huge distances between network update ticks. If each client didn't perform some form of dead reckoning in between network updates, you as a client would see missiles and planes jumping all over the place *all the time*.



I'm sorry but dead reckoning is something, independent calculation on client side is something else. Dead reckoning is position estimation that will still be in control of the server side (or instruments reading like sat navigation). What your pal, grayhost ED Paladin, wrote is that each client has a bigger degree of independent missile simulation which is simply ridiculous as concept. Not only it is a concept old as f**k, which has already been said, but also it has huge flaws which is why it is an old method and has been dropped by any serious real time gaming developer.

I understand that watching players or objects teleporting in the map is not a nice thing to see but people way smarter than me and whole ED itself (at least netcode wise) already came to conclusion A LONG TIME AGO that the benefits that comes with methods that lead to this behavior is way better. It is up to the software to deal and minimize or even reduce completely the teleporting behavior.

I'll go even further, with what has been said by grayhost i'm 100% sure that DCS has even more issues that are basically hidden by many factors. For example, AIM-120 that swaps target (eg. another aircraft cross the target path between missile and previous target and the missiles starts tracking the other aicraft) which would increase even further the degree of error between clients but since long distance missiles are already bugged by themselves this error is simply not visible yet.

There are many ways to deal with teleporting issues, one very effective way is to kick whoever is outside ping limit. Then a smart software will release the aircraft to the AI which will continue the mission but wait.................hold on a second..........last time i checked most online matches did not consist of flight plans for players like IRL but a very arcadish method (take off here, kill in this area, land here) which of course will instantly lead to how the heck we deal with this situation since we actually had a void since the beginning?

This is the problem with DCS, the core stuff is so basic and/or unfinished...yeah we have a new word now........ OLD


PS: Actually pure client side calculation is not a 2k concept but rather a 90's concept, that worked fine for lan's party but failed miserably in the internet. Though this is still used for turn based games.

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 07/03/18 08:07 AM.
#4428693 - 07/03/18 08:25 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: xXNightEagleXx]  
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Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx
Not only it is a concept old as f**k, which has already been said, but also it has huge flaws which is why it is an old method and has been dropped by any serious real time gaming developer.


Oh yeah? For what?

I'm not convinced that it is actually the client firing the missile that does the calculation of the missile flight path, i think that is done on the server and each client only calculates its own phantom with periodic corrections from the server, but i could be wrong.

Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx

I understand that watching players or objects teleporting in the map is not a nice thing to see but people way smarter than me and whole ED itself (at least netcode wise) already came to conclusion A LONG TIME AGO that the benefits that comes with methods that lead to this behavior is way better.


Yeah right...except they didn't. All the real time MP games use a form of dead reckoning in between network syncs. Most of them just don't have to deal with objects moving at 500 knots. What you propose is nonsense.

Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx

There are many ways to deal with teleporting issues, one very effective way is to kick whoever is outside ping limit.


Which has to be enforced by the server admin, not ED. I'm sure that this is perfectly possible right now, if not out of the box then with the help of one of the server admin tools.

Last edited by Sobek; 07/03/18 08:43 AM.
#4428764 - 07/03/18 06:42 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted by Sobek
...Most of them just don't have to deal with objects moving at 500 knots....


Speed by itself means nothing when talking about dead reckoning. I can have things moving at light speed but still do a reliable dead reckoning....... what really matters is how fast things changes its velocity vector thus acceleration magnitude or even better velocity derivative. Now missiles should not do any drastic acceleration or velocity vector that cannot be updated properly within an acceptable time range, unless.... unless.....unless it is buggy as hell and basically bleed speed....oh wait........this is actually what happens in DCS .........

I mean do you really think that a flight GAME provides a more complex dead reckoning problem than a racing game where players can drastically change both velocity and acceleration vector in a bat of secs, specially considering extreme case like collisions? Specially considering that the degree of error must be relative low due to the VERY close proximity between vehicles....... really?

I'm sorry but your narrative does not hold because of many examples out there with similar or even more degree of complexity.......

You might argue that there are less information to be shared and i agree to an extent but that's up to the software to do smart data propagation with adaptive refresh rate

Consider that some racing games allows 32 players to race each other which is not as simple problem as you like to sound

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 07/03/18 09:26 PM.
#4428792 - 07/03/18 09:36 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted by bisher
Ice would you like a lamp to go with your questioning? wink
Ice these guys offer an explanation for an errant missile and now they are suddenly expected to answer for ED?
You are funneling poster opinion to fit your narrative.
I don't disagree with what you are saying but I take exception to how you say it

I don't get the reference to the lamp. Care to enlighten me? smile

Sorry to not deliver the message in a form that's palatable to you, but then again, I've no clue to what you find would be better? They offer an explanation, yes, but they're offerring two different stories. I'm just asking which is which and how it ties in to what we're currently seeing/experiencing in the sim. They made the claim that *this is the reason for X* so I'm just asking them to clarify.


Originally Posted by Sobek
Originally Posted by - Ice
So is the netcode advanced, Sobek? Or is it old? Or did you mean it was advanced when it was made all those many years ago but not it's no longer advanced but rather it's old? biggrin

Both. As already mentioned, it has some caveats that need work because the state of the art has improved a bit. That doesn't mean that they screwed up when they wrote it.

So just like the F-14 Tomcat was advanced.... but still old. That both makes sense.... and doesn't.

Even if they didn't screw up when they wrote it (read: worked with what tech was available at the time), why have they still not fixed it since then? Why are we getting wing vapors and water droplets and new maps and new modules and yet the netcode, that code that EVERYTHING in the sim uses once they go online, is not fixed or updated? Funny how they ask people to buy more RAM to get with the times and yet they still run old netcode!


Originally Posted by Sobek
All the real time MP games use a form of dead reckoning in between network syncs. Most of them just don't have to deal with objects moving at 500 knots. What you propose is nonsense.

I'm sorry, but let me just ask this question --- how fast is network speed nowadays? How often does this network sync you speak of happen per second or per minute? We can stream HD movies, play all sorts of twitch shooter games and fighting games online, yet you're claiming that it's impossible to sync a missile location accurately between two clients over the internet? Do we not have network refresh or whatever it's called measured in milliseconds now? I'm guessing the reaction to missile behavior would be measured in seconds whereas reaction to other games like fighting games are in fractions of a second, but we can't have that in DCS?


- Ice
#4428798 - 07/03/18 10:54 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted by Sobek
I'm not convinced that it is actually the client firing the missile that does the calculation of the missile flight path, i think that is done on the server and each client only calculates its own phantom with periodic corrections from the server, but i could be wrong.


I hate to say it but you're kind of wrong on this one. I'm aware that ED did something regarding the server, but it is provable that the shooting client's position is correct and sync is absent. Things could be changing right under my nose and that's fine, especially if it's for the better (and I know ED is working on the missiles constantly, the missile guy is doing a lot of work - I just don't understand what it is that is being done ... I only see the entries biggrin ) - but right now, in air to air same ole same ole.


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#4428800 - 07/03/18 11:00 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
I'm sorry, but let me just ask this question --- how fast is network speed nowadays? How often does this network sync you speak of happen per second or per minute? We can stream HD movies, play all sorts of twitch shooter games and fighting games online, yet you're claiming that it's impossible to sync a missile location accurately between two clients over the internet? Do we not have network refresh or whatever it's called measured in milliseconds now? I'm guessing the reaction to missile behavior would be measured in seconds whereas reaction to other games like fighting games are in fractions of a second, but we can't have that in DCS?


Your selective reading is showing again. I mentioned ARMA's desync's already. Other games have desync. You're going down a path of self-righteousness in which you are alone, because you are plain wrong. And you're certainly doing a lot of guessing. Yes, there ARE better methods, they exist. No, what ED is doing isn't wrong, they have reasons for it. It literally works well enough as is, and some times you experience interesting behavior. Balancing the amount of information that needs to be sent and received with a good experience is not trivial. I'm sure it isn't trivial even in a simple shooter, though at least for those there is a lot experience out there.


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#4428818 - 07/04/18 02:55 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I know ED is working on the missiles constantly, the missile guy is doing a lot of work - I just don't understand what it is that is being done ... I only see the entries biggrin


This is intriguing to read and look forward to seeing what is being done regarding missile performance smile



#4428828 - 07/04/18 05:04 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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I wouldn't say that it's entirely accurate that Ice is alone in his beliefs. Sure, now that the hornet is out, it's easy to forget the past. While a lot of work goes into their projects, some of their endeavors seem to have been useless, if not an enormous waste of time, and there's no getting around that it consumes resources that could otherwise have been delegated elsewhere. It would be hard to believe any other motive than generating a quick profit, based on established technology, most obviously in the realm of releasing numerous similar propeller type aircraft with very few systems or avionics. There is no question that there have been many useless if not inapparent updates over the years that address at best very peripheral things, while the hard work of developing a new consumer product that most people actually want is left untended. The only group I have seen actually go out of their way to not do that or take that route is Razbam. This is the difficulty of having very few options and very few competitors, in what is really a very targeted niche for a very specific group of people. There are several modules which I have bought, albeit usually at a sale price, which in retrospect I have no idea why I purchased, except to say I had nothing else to do and no other options, and that I like different flavors of ice cream, but in reality they have very little functional use to me. However, it has accumulated to a few to several hundreds of dolars directed to one sim and one developer, where in reality in comparison for other sims I have paid very little. I am almost certain that there are others who have paid the same, so I do not hear any sob stories about ED. The hornet itself, for all the hype is still in a very rudimentary stage, and the systems they are talking about not being implemented are very complex, perhaps much more complex than the ones already implemented, and I think a full and complete module is still at least two to three years off, and I believe they released it partly based on Wagner's very general tutorials, there is some sort of frustration or craving to show that we have done something, and because the optics started to become silly. As I have probably mentioned before, this is not an erudite way of saying it, but I regard ED as a type of lazy bugger operation, I remember in the good old days of BMS, I used to eagerly await their release which they did for nothing. While I don't share the same fervor as Ice, I don't think he's incorrect, and generally I am in agreement with the overall views he is trying to express.

#4428832 - 07/04/18 07:06 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: xXNightEagleXx]  
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Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx
Now missiles should not do any drastic acceleration or velocity vector that cannot be updated properly within an acceptable time range, unless.... unless.....unless it is buggy as hell and basically bleed speed....oh wait........this is actually what happens in DCS .........


You conveniently ignore that missiles can pull around 30g if they have to, which they do against a maneuvering target.

Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx

I mean do you really think that a flight GAME provides a more complex dead reckoning problem than a racing game where players can drastically change both velocity and acceleration vector in a bat of secs


Granted, it's about the same complexity.

Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx

Consider that some racing games allows 32 players to race each other which is not as simple problem as you like to sound


Again, same as DCS...

Originally Posted by - Ice
I'm sorry, but let me just ask this question --- how fast is network speed nowadays? How often does this network sync you speak of happen per second or per minute? We can stream HD movies, play all sorts of twitch shooter games and fighting games online, yet you're claiming that it's impossible to sync a missile location accurately between two clients over the internet?


Ok, back to the basics.

You are mistaking bandwidth for latency. Bandwidth determines the amount of data that can be transferred per time. You are correct in that bandwidth has increased considerably during the last 20 years. Bandwidth however means precious little for online games, as the amount of data you are trying to transfer is very small (when compared to a HD stream, e.g.).

What is important to games is the latency and the packet loss. Latency is how long it takes for a packet of data to get from client to server and back, measured in milliseconds. You can theoretically have a bandwidth of 200Mbit/s (good for streaming) to a server and still have a ping of 500ms (bad for gaming) because for example, the server is physically far away from you or the signal has to pass a lot of hops on its way to the server. The important part is, latency has been hitting the limits of what is physically possible for at least 10 years now. There is simply no way that information could be sent with significantly less latency.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Do we not have network refresh or whatever it's called measured in milliseconds now? I'm guessing the reaction to missile behavior would be measured in seconds whereas reaction to other games like fighting games are in fractions of a second, but we can't have that in DCS?


You can have refresh rates as fast as you want, by the time the update reaches the client, it is already somewhat outdated. The trick is to show every client the past of all the other clients. This can however only work as long as packet loss and latency do not become too severe.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I hate to say it but you're kind of wrong on this one.


It would actually make sense somewhat, since that is the model that is used in shooters as well. The client checks whether the phantom was in his crosshairs when he pulled the trigger. It is just complicated by the fact that missiles have to act on the position of the phantom.

Last edited by Sobek; 07/04/18 09:26 AM.
#4428833 - 07/04/18 08:08 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Anyway since netcode is starting to really push DCS to its limit, netcode wise, i hope ED decides for a complete re-design and improvement. They actually did a good job improving graphic quality (ignoring performance here), let's just hope that they keep improving but at a considerable pace.

What turns me down is the fact that there are multiple accumulated bugs/issues/unfinished features but i've always hoped that they would start to sort them out one by one after the release of 2.5 (still no seeing this tho). This product has everything to be the king of the hill by far they just need to enforce their core code and features on which airframes rely to.

I just don't like when people defend a given company even when there is no reason to, criticism can be good as long as it's based on real problems with realistic solutions (both technical and financial). On the other hand, denying/ignoring/minimize problems (not referring to anyone specifically) can do a lot of damage to the product growth.

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 07/04/18 08:09 AM.
#4428839 - 07/04/18 09:23 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: xXNightEagleXx]  
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Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx
I just don't like when people defend a given company even when there is no reason to, criticism can be good as long as it's based on real problems with realistic solutions (both technical and financial). On the other hand, denying/ignoring/minimize problems (not referring to anyone specifically) can do a lot of damage to the product growth.


I'd like to be pointed towards any person that argued that the netcode should not be improved. As far as i'm concerned, there was none.

I am reluctant though to see words like incompetence be thrown around by people who don't know the difference between bandwidth and latency. Anyways, i think i've had my fair share of SimHQ for another few months.

Last edited by Sobek; 07/04/18 09:27 AM.
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