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#4403170 - 02/03/18 10:04 AM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted by Dart
Originally Posted by 453Raafspitty
Dont forget young Anakin piloting a Naboo fighter in the "uuugghh" prequal with no training..

Or Luke being able to pilot an X-Wing like an Ace right off the bat. He flew some atmospheric aircraft before, but this like saying that since I can pilot a simple biplane I'm ready for the F-16.


Well, space fighters in Star Wars have always shown behavior of atmospheric aircraft, it's not as if space was an entirely different domain in that universe. Hey, Star Wars is fantasy that happens to disguise as science fiction because it has robots and space travel. The only thing that _I_ demand is internal consistency. Luke and Anakin were majic, more on the physical side of the Force ("they were naturals", so to speak), and let's assume that both were flight/fighter nerds that probably gobbled up all the theoretical knowledge available on the Galactic Interweb. So the practice part came really easy to them, and the theory learning happened off-screen. You only have so many minutes in a film to tell your story.

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#4403181 - 02/03/18 12:27 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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#4410873 - 03/16/18 04:16 AM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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This is out digitally now. Watched it again and liked it a lot more this time. Same shortcomings, but I guess knowing they’re there already let me concentrate on the rest.
Watched the deleted scenes. Generally they made the right call and dumped some elements I know would’ve gotten on my nerves or subtracted from the movie. A couple could’ve been left in, but aren’t missed.


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#4410916 - 03/16/18 12:25 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
Generally they made the right call and dumped some elements I know would’ve gotten on my nerves or subtracted from the movie. A couple could’ve been left in, but aren’t missed.



It's been my personal experience that at least 80% of the deleted scenes I've seen from films I immediately understood right away why it was removed from the film. Then you have those really rare special cases like the extended version of "Aliens" which contains an entire REEL of footage that was not included in the theatrical version. That was done purely to reduce the running time.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 03/16/18 12:25 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4426680 - 06/18/18 08:41 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Late to the party here. I watched TLJ last night.

Can someone wipe this stupid nonsense off the cinematic history map, please? What a load of nonsense from one end to the other. Inconsistencies, pilot holes you could drop a Death Star through, the way they made Luke completely useless, «Godspeed» in a Star Wars movie, silly love story, Luke milking a space sea cow, and a pointless half-hour wasted on a stupid casino/hacker plot, that the movie could just as well have done without.

I am not eloquent enough to convey my utter disgust after seeing this steaming pile of horse manure.

Oh well, back to pretending only IV, V and VI exist. Again.


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#4426682 - 06/18/18 08:49 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Hey Semmern, at least you gave the movie a chance before you made your final judgement. smile


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4426686 - 06/18/18 09:05 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Hey Semmern, at least you gave the movie a chance before you made your final judgement. smile



I had high hopes. That didn’t help biggrin


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#4426690 - 06/18/18 09:25 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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I had more fun watching the YT critiques than I did watching the movie. I didn't think it could get worse than the prequels but I was wrong.


- Ice
#4426720 - 06/18/18 11:51 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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I'm sorta-kinda reluctant to admit that TLJ may actually have been worse than Episode 1. It doesn't have cringeworthy characters like Jar-Jar and didn't feel like I was 30 years too old to watch it. But I agree that the Holdo maneuver was more destructive to the canon than anything else. In that respect, yes, it was the worst episode ever.

#4426725 - 06/19/18 12:56 AM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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A lot of things didn't make sense. If I look at it in terms of action, then yeah, there were cool scenes but if I look at it in terms of story and plotholes, I cannot help but agree with the critics. Too many jokes that fall flat. Luke tossing the lightsaber away was good for a few LOLZ but when that becomes the humor of the movie, it doesn't work. Poe doing the "I'll hold for Hux" can be funny then you watch all those bombers annihilated.... are we going for funny or somber? And where were the Y-Wings?

After the hyperspace jump, the Imperial fleet dispatched Tie fighters to harrass the Rebel ships, enough that they were able to blow the bridge out. Why stop the assault simply because the bigger ships cannot keep up? Out of range? Then jump a few Star Destroyers in front of the Rebels and sandwich them in.

If the Rebel ships were going to die anyway, why didn't they turn around and spend their last fuel reserves to do the hyperspace ramming maneuver? They'd die but they'd take out some of the enemy with them. After watching the bombing run, kamikaze missions seem acceptable to the Rebels.

How did the hacker know about the shuttle's cloaking? Or that it was info valuable enough to trade? Why would the Imperials even honor their deal with the hacker? Heck, Finn and Rose go out on an important mission and they can't even park their ship properly or hide it properly and instead double-park it on the beach and even ignore the local that told them off?

When the transports were being picked off, why didn't they do evasive maneuvers? Surely that'll be like hitting zig-zagging speedboats with a big naval gun.

This isn't even tackling the fact of Rey being a Mary Sue.

Episode 1 of the prequels I could understand as it looked like they were trying to cater to a younger audience with young Annie and Jar-Jar. It only got darker towards Episode 3. I remember watching TFA and seeing a lot of disconnects even as I watched in the cinema but I was willing to give a pass since it's supposed to be the first film in a trilogy and was expecting only to have the foundations of a story but with TLJ, well, good luck with whatever Episode 9 is going to look like.


- Ice
#4426757 - 06/19/18 09:26 AM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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This needs erasing from my memory,it was truly awful. Is Solo going to restore my faith in the SW franchise?


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#4426761 - 06/19/18 11:42 AM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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I’m still convinced that age and nostalgia are huge factors when it comes to judging the Star Wars movies.

Many of us here on SimHQ were kids or teenagers when we first saw the original trilogy no? If you watch the original trilogy now, you will notice that it is full of campy acting, clunky dialogue and unexplained character motives which are the same things people complain about with the prequels.

These new Disney SW films (except for Solo) have been doing extremely well at the box office so the mass appeal is obviously there.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 06/19/18 11:44 AM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4426762 - 06/19/18 11:54 AM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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How many people go see them “because it’s Star Wars!” or, as a couple people on this 3rd page of the thread have said, because they’re holding out hope it’ll be better than the last one? The money is spent and counted in the box office take whether they loved it or hated it.


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#4426773 - 06/19/18 01:45 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
This needs erasing from my memory,it was truly awful. Is Solo going to restore my faith in the SW franchise?


I liked Solo. I hated Rogue One and Last Jedi pissed me off. So take that for what you will. I thought Solo might be the best franchise film since the original trilogy.

#4426775 - 06/19/18 02:01 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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I don’t even really think of I-III, VII, and VIII as Star Wars. Some of the Expanded Universe novels fill that bill just nicely, especially before they started just letting anyone write the damn things. Yeah, Yuuzhan Vong series, I’m talking about you in particular!

Last edited by NH2112; 06/19/18 02:01 PM.

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#4426797 - 06/19/18 07:38 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Solo may be a good movie but it's suffering from the effects of TLJ.

I think I've found one interesting example. In the end of Rogue One, Vader was mowing down Rebel soldiers left-right-and-center in an effort to get the data chip containing the plans. But why didn't he just force-pull whoever is holding the chip? Or even force-choke to hold them in place? His lack of aggressiveness in doing this part meant Episode IV had to happen, otherwise we may never have met Luke. So while it was a bit confusing, we knew it had to happen for the next movie to have a story. I don't find anything like this in TFA or TLJ, or at least I can't think of one at this time.


Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
I’m still convinced that age and nostalgia are huge factors when it comes to judging the Star Wars movies.

Yes, the original trilogy was not perfect, but the plotholes were not as big or as obvious, I would think. Would you care to cite some?


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#4426811 - 06/19/18 11:08 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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The Endor Holocaust comes to mind, although that's largely an omitted consequence of the Rebel Alliance's reckless actions. The battle of Hoth makes little sense, unless you assume that Vader is impatient and overly confident (and there are signs that he is, so I guess it's a lesson in how NOT to conduct an operation). Ep IV, not shooting the "escape pod with no signs of life forms" makes no sense unless you rationalize it that the Star Destroyer's gunner didn't want to risk his position of the empire's leaderboard score of hit/miss ratio (one of the more intelligent mockplanations); in a universe with robots everywhere, the absence of life signals is no reason to assume that the pod was inconspicuous (and soon enough it turns out not to be, anyway).

I think the best explanation for pretty much anything that you see is that each Star Wars film is a highly biased piece of blatant, one-sided pro-rebel propaganda. If you assume this meta-point of view, the plot holes can be easily forgiven (because it's bad propaganda), as the black and white portrayal of characters, and glossing over the fact that the rebels are a highly incompetent but destructive terror organization that maybe can destabilize the empire but it utterly unable to replace it with something better (and unsurprisingly, as they manage to assassinate the emperor, they don't take over but in the ensuing chaos the New Order takes over that apparently is even worse.

In TLJ we actually no longer see a rebel fleet like in Ep IV-VI, but a delusional, self-radicalized terror organization that just can't give up even though their cause is lost, and they have already demonstrated their incompetence to actually bring stability to the galaxy. No matter how you see Snokes and his lieutenant, no responsible government could let the rebels go unchecked. They have brought so much destruction, they need to be eliminated. The only ones who don't realize this are the script writers, and why? Because they are paid propagandists, not objective narrators.
wink

#4426819 - 06/19/18 11:31 PM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Ice, I was going to answer your question but Ssnake beat me to it!!

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 06/19/18 11:31 PM.

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#4426945 - 06/21/18 02:52 AM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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I have been going back and forth on whether I like TLJ or not. In the end, I think i netted out more on the I don't like it side.

First, Rian Johnson. I think he's good. Looper is one of the best scifi movies. But when it comes to Star Wars, we are ok with people more or less sticking to the formula of the original trilogy. We don't particularly want to diverge too much.

Lucas screwed the prequels when he started introducing things like mitochloridians and all that nonesense...combined with some of the worst acting outside of Obi Wan, you basically have a disaster.

Force Awakens remade Episode 4. Some new faces but exqctly the same movie. We ate it up.

We came into TLJ expecting to follow the Empire formula. We wanted lots of Rey getting trained by Luke. We wanted some big reveal about Reys dad, etc.,

Instead, the movie wasted too much time on Poe and Fin. They were just annoying. Not likeable and not people yoi cared about like Leia and Han. There was no Lando. Introduced ridiculous things like Leia surviving in space.. Snoke was.a dud. Emo Ben just walking around without his shirt being angry...

In the end, I think it just failed. Rian Johnson may redeem himself when (and if he is still allowed) to work on his own trilogy...without the constraints of what we expect from the Skywalker saga...but when asked to drvelop a movie with our expectations, he just failed horribly in my opinion.


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#4426965 - 06/21/18 09:02 AM Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi - spoilers thread. [Re: Spidey]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake
The Endor Holocaust comes to mind, although that's largely an omitted consequence of the Rebel Alliance's reckless actions. The battle of Hoth makes little sense, unless you assume that Vader is impatient and overly confident (and there are signs that he is, so I guess it's a lesson in how NOT to conduct an operation). Ep IV, not shooting the "escape pod with no signs of life forms" makes no sense unless you rationalize it that the Star Destroyer's gunner didn't want to risk his position of the empire's leaderboard score of hit/miss ratio (one of the more intelligent mockplanations); in a universe with robots everywhere, the absence of life signals is no reason to assume that the pod was inconspicuous (and soon enough it turns out not to be, anyway).

I'm a bit fuzzy on the Endor bit, I'll need to re-watch that episode.

As for not shooting the escape pod, I agree they could've just blasted it, but maybe at that point they got tired of blasting escape pods and saved themselves the effort if there were no "people" aboard. They did say "there goes another one" meaning there have been previous pods being jettisoned and hitting a tiny escape pod with a big gun may be more effort than it's worth especially if the pod is "empty."

I do agree with you regarding the incompetence of the Rebels though. I think Ep1-6 could be forgiven as I see it as one storyline going from father to son, but I was expecting more from Ep7 seeing as the Rebels "won" at the end of Ep6, right? Imperials gone so I expected the Rebels to be the new government and wanted to see how they've made a change in the galaxy in the many years since Ep6. No such luck!

The story telling and the writing really needs to evolve past this death star or dreadnought stage. I mean the Rebels did blow up DSI in Ep 4, DSII in Ep6, and DSIII in Ep7. Where does the Empire get the funds all of these death stars? Do they not have any other tricks up their sleeve? The first time we see a dreadnought, the Rebels also kill it immediately. Not only did the Empire lose a big asset in terms of the death star, they're also losing much more in terms of troops and other assets stationed on the death star(s) when it gets destroyed. Is the Empire that big that they can shrug off these losses very easily? Are the Rebels that incompetent that they can't capitalize on these losses by the enemy?

In Ep7, the Rebels destroy the planetary DS but Ep8 opens with "The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic..." What??!!?

Then again, Ep8 was directed and written by one man, it seems like, and to serve an ulterior motive if the review critics are to be believed. I don't really care about that, I care about the story, and it just doesn't make any sense at all.


Originally Posted by Ssnake
No matter how you see Snokes and his lieutenant, no responsible government could let the rebels go unchecked. They have brought so much destruction, they need to be eliminated. The only ones who don't realize this are the script writers, and why? Because they are paid propagandists, not objective narrators.
wink

Where have the Rebels brought on such desctruction aside from the Empire's own assets?


Originally Posted by Spidey
Lucas screwed the prequels when he started introducing things like mitochloridians and all that nonesense...combined with some of the worst acting outside of Obi Wan, you basically have a disaster.

Force Awakens remade Episode 4. Some new faces but exqctly the same movie. We ate it up.

We came into TLJ expecting to follow the Empire formula. We wanted lots of Rey getting trained by Luke. We wanted some big reveal about Reys dad, etc.,

Instead, the movie wasted too much time on Poe and Fin. They were just annoying. Not likeable and not people yoi cared about like Leia and Han. There was no Lando. Introduced ridiculous things like Leia surviving in space.. Snoke was.a dud. Emo Ben just walking around without his shirt being angry...

In the end, I think it just failed. Rian Johnson may redeem himself when (and if he is still allowed) to work on his own trilogy...without the constraints of what we expect from the Skywalker saga...but when asked to drvelop a movie with our expectations, he just failed horribly in my opinion.

Midichlorians was a facepalm for sure, but it was only in one movie. Rey's Mary Sue now extends into two movies and I fully expect it to continue on to the third one. We don't even know her midichlorian count! biggrin

I didn't really care what Ep8 was going to be like and I didn't really care what forumula it was going to be. However, I did hope it would give us more reason to care for, to identify with, and to root for certain characters. It hasn't. What did it deliver? What did Rian Johnson give us when given a free hand with the SW story and universe? A total disconnect with Ep7, no character development, and nothing really for Ep9 to build upon. Han is dead (Ep7), Luke is dead (Ep8), and Leia is dead IRL. If it takes a trilogy just to introduce new characters (Rey and Fin), it'll end before we really would care about any of them and they may have done more damage to the brand in doing so.

Rian did not fail to produce a good movie with the fan's expectations. He failed to produce a good movie, full stop.


- Ice
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