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#4425360 - 06/09/18 08:06 PM New Watertower for EAWPRO  
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VonBeerhofen Offline
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I tried to fix the original model to get a working R/S for it. Sadly the 3DZ was such a mess that there was no way it could be done, so I rebuild it from scratch. I just hate to see such models in my game, with 80 uselss polygons and just as many useless nodes to get it to work more or less, and it doesn't particularly honour Gurney's R/S calculator and what it is capable of.

Although it may look the same (for now), it's very different in that it was build following the strict rules which apply to 3D models and has no purposeless polygons or nodes. A nice clean model which can now be used as a base for other purposes as well, like lighthouse, minaret, guard tower and more of such things. I already added transparent polygons to the model to see if the inside would render properly, which it does. With that the possibillity for rotating lights on it is a feasable option but more work is needed to make that happen.

Here's a preview of the model as it stands now:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

VonBeerhofen

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4425442 - 06/10/18 04:00 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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I used the old one in the 2015 European Theater target upgrade project. Worked pretty good after a few 3dz tweaks. It shows up as a small water tower, large water tower and as a flak tower.:

[Linked Image]


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4425453 - 06/10/18 05:45 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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This isn't about a few tweaks Rotton, it's an excersise in creating a solid base, the way it should have been done in the first place. It's about readying the model for the 256 node / polygon limit that does not need tweaking, because there are no more nodes or polygons left to tweak, just like my other models and those trees in the background. I'm sure you'll understand someday what its all about, this is beyond tweaking. Why did you remove that beautifull fence, didn't you like it or was it just too problematic? I was able to keep mine, :), and that's just the start of where this model wil go.

Realligned, recalculated, fully rebuild and cleaned up, without tweaks but with a few extras, the way EAWPRO and me like it:

[Linked Image]

I think an antenna on the roof may make it look more scary or perhaps a few guns sticking out from somewhere, adding crates will work too, it's only a beginning.

VonBeerhofen

#4425454 - 06/10/18 06:03 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Rotton50 Offline
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Heh, like a trout to a dry fly.

I'm not in this for the theoretical beauty of a perfectly built model. The players couldn't care less how the models are made, only how they present in the game. They can't see the math and they don't want to.

I made a perfectly acceptable model in 15 minutes, including adding some gun barrels to the flak tower. I'd say that was pretty damned efficient use of time.

BTW, if you want to see what a full world looks like, one with interesting bits and pieces strew about the countryside, check out the 1.6 ETO2015Theater. All the crates and barrels a guy could want.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4425459 - 06/10/18 06:37 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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It's not about what the players care about either Rotton, it is about what I care about, and the kick I get when I solve the R/S for crappy objects which partially disappear when you observe them from nearby. It's the basis which is needed to build anything you like without R/S issues and disappearing polygons. It's the hunt for ever more complex models which has kept me going for 20 years, how much time you or I invest in it is of no concern to me but I can do this all day long

There are plenty of crates in my models already since they're easy to make, but my models aren't. If they were there wouldn't be any fun in it for me. Besides that I prefer something much more challenging this time.

[Linked Image]

VonBeerhofen

#4425460 - 06/10/18 07:02 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Nope, sorry, it IS about the players for without them it's just mental masturbation. In fact, if it were just for your own enjoyment why even post? You could go off into your own world and build to your heart's content.

As to the complexity of the TMOD's, after considerable experience of my own I found it better to build simple models and group them together with the target editor to make a busy world.

For example, I took your POW camp and deconstructed it into separate pieces, the fence, the guard post and living quarters. Then using the target editor I used the same pieces but put them in different places so that the POW camp has a different look at different locations.

I've done the same thing throughout the ETO2015Theater.

Heck I even stacked AA cannons, planes and vehicles onto the decks of ships. All are individually targetable as well as the ship underneath.

All in all it's lots of fun coming up with new ideas for targets.

Now, I do understand that your execs have a very tight limit on TMOD's whereas the Code Group exec can have 1000 different TMOD's so that's why you have to combine them. I guess we can just say that we have very different approaches to the modding life based on the development path we've chosen.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4425472 - 06/10/18 08:46 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Yeah I know, and I also understand that when they're individual targets sitting on top of another, the top one will float in the air if the bottom one gets destroyed. So that won't work very well, or are they now plunging down as it should be? Now that would be impressive.

It's been a long standing rule for players that if they don't like my creations, or your creations for that matter, that they can change the object to something else if they so desire, but that doesn't change what I like to build. I only hope that players may like it but if they don't then that's just too bad.

If that's a screenshot from 1.60 then it still looks pretty barren to me for an exe capable of doing 1000'ds of TMODS, did you run out of breath or is this just one of those very limited 1000 tile worlds which won't need 1000'ds of TMODS? I agree that grouping targets can be a lot of fun, but it can also be boring and timeconsuming, especially with 1000'ds of TMODS, and with 5 theatres to do, without any help, I guess you've got your work cut out for you and I understand now why some people are so desperate to get their hands on my work.

I just build new theatres which need new TMODS, doing 100 for each is already kind of stretching it, but I'm not in a hurry to create them, but I also understand now that you are. And the price to pay is obvious, tweak and don't pay too much attention to disappearing polygons or models with dozens of useless nodes and polygons, noone will ever notice.

But I do notice and I know that it's not necessary. You see there's not much difference in the time it needs to build good models from scratch or tweaking already crappy models, if you know how. The only difference is that one will do the job properly and the other won't.

The time needed for problem solving isn't much different either. It took me just over an hour to rebuild the watertower from scratch but with everything it had in there. The more you do it the easier it gets. It's the extra invisible stuff which made it interesting enough to do, so it can be used differently, not by resizing it, but by creating something new. I already have a lighthouse but why not have two entirely different ones. I have multiple theatres to stock up anyway and there'll be plenty of grouping targets fun, especially when everything has firing capabillity.

My advice, just keep doing what you're doing Rotton, my tweaking days are over, has been for over a decade. U-boat anyone?

[Linked Image]

You see, that's the difference between you and me! And yes, that's a fully working 88 mounted on the front deck which sinks with the ship, as it's only a single 3DZ. Oh and if you take this u-boat apart like my POW camp, you can fill a nice scrapyard with all the parts I've added.

VonBeerhofen



#4425475 - 06/10/18 09:18 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Originally Posted by VonBeerhofen
Yeah I know, and I also understand that when they're individual targets sitting on top of another, the top one will float in the air if the bottom one gets destroyed. So that won't work very well, or are they now plunging down as it should be? Now that would be impressive.


If the ship is destroyed first indeed the other objects would be hanging in mid-air. What I did to get around this was to make a couple of full height damage model Freighters rather than a capsized or listing model. I painted the texture with lots of holes and burn marks to make it looked destroyed. Worked just fine.


Originally Posted by VonBeerhofen

If that's a screenshot from 1.60 then it still looks pretty barren to me for an exe capable of doing 1000'ds of TMODS, did you run out of breath or is this just one of those very limited 1000 tile worlds which won't need 1000'ds of TMODS? I agree that grouping targets can be a lot of fun, but it can also be boring and timeconsuming, especially with 1000'ds of TMODS, and with 5 theatres to do, without any help, I guess you've got your work cut out for you and I understand now why some people are so desperate to get their hands on my work.


Don't be so damn critical. Of course that's not a screen shot of everything I've done. It's a screenshot showing the tower. If you want screenshots that show the extent of one of my targets just let me know. It's really impressive.

Originally Posted by VonBeerhofen

I just build new theatres which need new TMODS, doing 100 for each is already kind of stretching it, but I'm not in a hurry to create them, but I also understand now that you are. And the price to pay is obvious, tweak and don't pay too much attention to disappearing polygons or models with dozens of useless nodes and polygons, noone will ever notice.


Been down this road before with another of our illustrious members when we increased the texture size for the TMOD's to 512 x 512. The thing is, no one cares about the TMOD's detail. they are targets plus generally you're flying past them at 300 MPH so who the heck cares how detailed they are?

Originally Posted by VonBeerhofen

But I do notice and I know that it's not necessary. You see there's not much difference in the time it needs to build good models from scratch or tweaking already crappy models, if you know how. The only difference is that one will do the job properly and the other won't.


I've got plenty of experience with 3dz models, both new and tweaked ones. I can tell you there's a huge difference in time building a new model vs updating an old model. Any time you want I'll post pictures of, let's say 10 models, 5 that were fixed up by me and 5 that were freshly built and you try to pick which was which. How about it, up to the challenge?


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4425484 - 06/10/18 11:18 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Why do you guys always want to challenge me? Are you going to show how you fixed up my bridge or broke up my POW camp? Last time I got challenged it was with my own pilotmap icons vs my newest icons and we all know how that ended. The fact is that in all the years I've been reading about v1.60 very few screenshots have been shown which verify it's awesomeness. I'm sure it's as great as you think it is and I'm not out for you to proof yourself. As a 3D modeller I know what's out there and there's very little which isn't seriously flawed one way or another. What isn't problematic are the objects copied from Gunship and other games and the little houses anyone can create.

Reskinning is the easiest job in the world, building tanks, u-boats and dingo's from scratch is something entirely different. As I said before, I'm not limited in anyway to create what I want and add the necessary detail even in 8 bit 256 x 256. It would look much more impressive when skinned to 512 textures or 24 bit BMP. Still that would mean an intolerable hit on FPS in our online games, 512 is working 24 bit is not. But still I'm fine with what standard texturising provides and am not even considering to go higher then that. I've taken one more step and that's activating the use of full custom palettes for ground objects but I'm not even using that.

I do understand how easy it is to copy someone else's work, put a new skin on and perhaps if possible add a small object, like a crate or oil barrel or something to save time. I did that in 2002, when I reskinned the Med Ter houses but didn't find it particularly rewarding. It was much more rewarding to create EAW's first pyramid from scratch without the help of an R/S calculator. From there on things changed, the bridge that you have from me was also build without the calculator and the POW camp was just a silly effort in UHR.
Still it was also done without the calculator. The max I did without the calculator was around 100 polygons, after that my brain couldn't handle it anymore.

I got tired of the flimsy walls and gates, or the struts I've seen on biplanes, the fence of the POW camp, they can be solid instead of 2D but yes it will take some time before you will be able to do so, it's not easy. I don't think it matters much to compare my work vs your work, you use what I've made and I use what I have made too. No matter how much you tweak things it's still my work. By saying how little people care about detail I assume you're saying that you don't really care, so let me be the only one who does care and let me move on with my work without playing these silly games you call ''challenges''.

You don't have anything I want but I do have everything you want, that's why you're using my models instead of building your own, to safe time you say. You mention my bridge, POW casmp, well I'm very flattered but to be honoust those objects were from 2002 and inspite of being my crappiest work due to the lack of R/S calculators they were a lot harder to create then that watertower or windmill. You probably like to challenge me with some of your stuff, tweaked from other people's models, that saved you so much time, but there can be no challenge between an originator and a tweaker. I've learned a lot since 2002 and I'm putting it to good use, ofcourse you can tweak my bridge faster then I could make it back then in 2002, but it's no longer representative for what I create or how I create it.

Go back to tweaking other people's work Rotton, it's what you do best and it saves time, which is important to you, but leave me in peace when it comes to what I like doing best and that is build new all original models like the Remagen bridge or the cage bridge that Moggy requested but never got, and the all solid arch bridge or any of the other bridges I've made. Your bridge is obsolete inspite of your tweaks and so is your POW camp. Anything else you may have I can replicate probably in a day if it wasn't copied from another Microprose game, like the replica I build from Col. Gibbon's pictures of his pillbox, and then I added some more just for fun to show how easy it was. I fixed his dreadnaught and I can fix his B29 too but time is running out, besides that I'm not here to proof my capabillities, Im here to have fun with what I like doing best.

Why don't you start your own thread about your work instead of trying to challenge me in silly games. I've seen your floatplanes and they're indicative of how you do things. If people appreciate such work fine, but it's not going to be how I do things. If you want a real challenge, finish Col. Gibbon's B29 and make it as he intended, or his dreadnaught or zeppelin. I have a B29 pit which you can have if you complete the task without modelling flaws, but I'm pretty certain you won't take up that challenge, you just don't have the time for it, nor his skills or patience .

VonBeerhofen

#4425486 - 06/10/18 11:38 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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We haven't released the floatplanes yet so I don't know how you could critique them. Unless you have unauthorized access to the Gen's server which Moggy is going to want to talk to you about.

I do have the B-29 and I'm considering a rebuild if I go forward with the Korean War planeset. It will be a big job because frankly it's a mess. But it would still be 5 times faster than building one from scratch.

You know, I didn't come in here to challenge you. I came in here to point out that your old model was being put to good use and I even took the time to get a screenshot of one version of it to show you how good it looked

Note that I said nothing critical of you new work.

OTOH, from the beginning of the thread you have been in turn condescending, critical, demeaning and just generally a dick.

Oh and misleading too. All your talk about the purity of 3dz modeling for it's own sake and how upgraded models can't hold a candle to brand spanking new ones. I challenged you on that because it's simply not true.Members are flying literally hundreds of my upgraded models in all sorts of scenarios, shooting up hundreds of upgraded TMOD targets and they're quite happy. They don't care who, what or where made or improved them.

You know, with the recent display of comity between members I though maybe you'd decided to take the chip off your shoulder but nah, pretty much the same ole VBH.

Thanks for confirming our suspicions.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4425492 - 06/11/18 12:20 AM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Ah we're getting to the name calling now are we? Calling people ''dick'' can get you suspended for 3 weeks at least, I got 3 weeks for way less then that after parotting your words. It's great that others are quite happy with your tweaks and I have nothing against them. My players are quite happy with my creations too, and why would you think I'd be interested in a screenshot of my own bridge which was used in our games for app. 5 years? You may not have said anything critical about my recent work but you also haven't said anything nice about it. Your reason for joining this thread is pretty clear to me and you used the same sorry excuse of showing my bridge the last time you interrupted my thread. And as for condescending, critical, demeaning and that other word, there's been no such intention whatsoever but you wanted to compare your ways with mine, so there's the comparison you've asked for and I hope you will change your ways for the better. I'll always keep an eye on other people's creations but showing off in my thread isn't exactly the way that's supposed to happen. After your accusation of faul play I'm willing to confront anyone from the codegroup, whoever is still left, but they were your own words taken from your own thread.

Now can I go on with this thread without further interruptions, silly games or namecalling? I have offered you a great way to show off your stuff in your own thread and you can show my old stuff too, what more do you want? I have nothing for you but good advice, if you won't take it as such then I'm sorry, but it's all I can give you.

VonBeerhofen

#4425529 - 06/11/18 09:43 AM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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What bridge are you talking about? There's no bridge in this discussion.

You know, the funny thing is, I offered you good advice and you threw it back in my face.

I posted the old tower showing you that it not only wasn't too bad but that I'd used it to great effect in my target upgrade package.

That was the sole reason for my jumping in here. I wouldn't have even tried based on past experience but the recent cessation of hostilities in other threads lead me to believe that a new attitude had begun to take hold in this forum.

I was wrong.

Now here's the part you need to pay attention to -

You could have said -
============================================================
Great job Ray, it's good to see the old stuff getting a new lease on life, thanks for including my hard work in your package".
============================================================

Then you went off on my other work, among other things insinuating that I couldn't stack TMOD's without having the models look odd when they were destroyed.

I took the time to explain how I got around that limitation.

Again, here's what you could have said -
============================================================
"Wow, what a great idea, I like it when someone thinks outside the box. What do you say we work together on a TMOD improvement project?"
============================================================

Then you took a shot at my entire Target upgrade package, calling it an empty looking world based on ONE screenshot.

You could have said -
============================================================
"Boy it sounds like you spent a lot of time on that project how about showing us some more screenshots? I might be able to learn something from your efforts."
============================================================

But no, you went the mean spirited, condescending, petty route..

Truth is, every contributor has experienced this time and time again in here. We all have our VBH stories.

Which lead me to this:

I couldn't use the most descriptive term for your general attitude because that wouldn't pass muster so I used a term that comes close. The most descriptive term begins with an A.

You should hang onto this post, print it out even, hang it on the wall in front of your PC and read it from time to time. It would help you become a better member.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4425534 - 06/11/18 11:14 AM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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After 10 years of attacks, personal abuse, so called "challenges" and disruptive posts where you show off yourself and your work as superior? you must be joking. . Don''t play Mr. Nice Guy all of a sudden Rotton, you wanted a comparison and I gave you my honoust opinion. Your watertower can not be further develloped without serious issues and mine can be turned into whatever I set my mind to due to a difference in understanding the R/S. I understand and you tweak, I think the pictures show that difference perfectly well.

I have given you the advice to start learning to make things from scratch and not just a few crates but serious models. If you are unwilling to do so then your only hope lies with the people who're not interested in the models I build, or the way you phrased it, who don't care about disappearing polygons. And with that you will never solve the real issues of your models, which are appearent in almost every picture you posted.

My attitude won't change and I'm ready for the next time you disrupt my thread, just don't expect that my opinion on you has changed.

VonBeerhofen

#4425537 - 06/11/18 11:30 AM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Yeah, pretty much same ole, same ole VBH.

Thanks for the reminder.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4425540 - 06/11/18 11:38 AM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Yeah, pretty much same ole, same ole Rotton

I knew where this was going and I was right.

#4425544 - 06/11/18 12:33 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Facts are facts my man.

I've never started any conflict here. Ever. You can check all the way back to 2002. I've never slighted anyone's work. That's not to say I won't vociferously refute claims. That's probably what you think of as attacks. They're not.

You, OTOH slight everyone's work at one time or another. Look at how fast your exchanges with Mr. Jelly went down hill just this past week. Believe me, no one here thinks he was at fault.

You know, early on you and I had some conversations about modding EAW, I still have the e-mails. The tone was congenial and informative. in fact, you helped me set up some scripts to modify the exec based on my weapons upgrade package.

Then you decided to denigrate SPAW when it came out by stating that is was a poor attempt since it used an existing terrain set.

I mean, talk about mean spirited.

If you recall the thread, you got your ass handed to you by the four members of the MODSquad. Four guys who'd never had a bad word to say about anyone, ever.

That was the day we realized what a small, insecure man you are

And don't forget, somewhere in that timeline is when you got thrown out of the Code Group for the same behavior.
You and one other member are the only ones with that distinction.

Got thrown off here for a while too, didn't you?

Quite a resume.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4425556 - 06/11/18 01:38 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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And he just drones on and on and on. We've had these discussions many times before Rotton and it always ends with your prefabricated lies and throwing smut at me, let it rest man, go tweak your models, I have nothing more to add to your accusations then what's been said already.

VonBeerhofen

#4425579 - 06/11/18 03:21 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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The destroyed model had to undergo the same treatment and a few extra goodies were added. Note that the irregular pile of rubble consists of app. 100 polygons alone. The skin for it was just a haste job as it will take some time to properly reskin it. Sorry for the trees, the model had to be placed somewhere where it would be easily found, so I used the treeslot for that.

[Linked Image]

BTW, I made this during the previous conversation, I'd say that was pretty damned efficient use of time.

VonBeerhofen

#4425603 - 06/11/18 04:15 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Lies?

Name one.


Heck, even paranoids have enemies.
#4425612 - 06/11/18 04:48 PM Re: New Watertower for EAWPRO [Re: VonBeerhofen]  
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Zandvoort, N-H, Netherlands
Here he goes again, on his personal vendetta, the real reason for his appearance. Go read your own historic archive to refresh your memory.

VonBeerhofen

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