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#4418780 - 05/02/18 11:36 AM Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128!  
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http://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jets-combat-ready-report/a-43611873

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/954028/Germany-news-eurofighter-jets-war-USA-Nato-World-War-3


Unbelievable but true according to the above links.Although the articles mention for NATO action.
Still the number is very low.


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#4418781 - 05/02/18 11:47 AM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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"The problem stems from a cooling liquid leak in the aircraft's wing pod sensors, which are used to recognize hostile jets or incoming attacks. Without the defense system the Eurofighter jets are not combat ready."


I'm sure some heads will be rolling if they haven't done so already.


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#4418783 - 05/02/18 12:13 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
I'm sure some heads will be rolling if they haven't done so already.


No. That would not be "politically correct" enough for those German red-green idiot-politicians: For each and every nonsense, there's money to be wasted instead...

#4418784 - 05/02/18 12:16 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: BLiTZKRiEG]  
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Originally Posted by BLiTZKRiEG
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
I'm sure some heads will be rolling if they haven't done so already.


No. That would not be "politically correct" enough for those German red-green idiot-politicians: For each and every nonsense, there's money to be wasted instead...



I can't really disagree with that. I keep myself pretty well informed of current German politics and I have to say that I really have the impression that most Germans would be just fine with leaving NATO and getting rid of most of their military.

I think a lot of the German political leadership is staying in NATO because they feel some kind of obligation to the US but they really don't want to be involved anymore especially since the USSR has now been gone for almost 30 years.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/02/18 12:18 PM.

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#4418871 - 05/02/18 08:51 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
I think a lot of the German political leadership is staying in NATO because they feel some kind of obligation to the US but they really don't want to be involved anymore especially since the USSR has now been gone for almost 30 years. because they were second winner in the big war and have to pay for every #%&*$# because of that.


wink

#4418883 - 05/02/18 11:07 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: BLiTZKRiEG]  
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you know i feel sorry for todays younger germans, they'll have to live with the whole ww2 thing as if it was THEIR fault, that generation is pretty much dead and buried now.


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#4418900 - 05/03/18 12:39 AM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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True.

Now about the number of Aircraft ready. That can be very misleading without knowing the full story. Often a whole type of aircraft is listed as not ready because of something an incident revealed. The fault may not affect every aircraft, but they will all be not ready until inspected. Or there may be some item that is being upgraded. Or some fault is being addressed that doesn’t make the aircraft not airworthy, but for operational reason may be listed as not mission capable (not ready).

Look, it could be a bunch of reasons, so I wouldn’t get too wound up until we know precisely what is going on.

Now, if it was because there are a lot of unresolved or unrepaired maintenance issues that is something else.


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#4418904 - 05/03/18 12:57 AM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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FWIW I bet the Russian Air Force is even worse off in terms of combat readiness. All their operational aircraft will be in Syria and Ukraine. Same same the old Soviet armed forces were always a paper tiger.


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#4418911 - 05/03/18 02:45 AM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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OG is spot on.

This can happen in any Air Force - a defect is found in one aircraft, then they look and find the exact same one on a second and, in the interests of safety or whatever the ground the ENTIRE fleet of those aircraft until they can be looked at and, if needed, the issue corrected.

Germany won't leave NATO because they're not f*cking stupid. NATO is much, much more than Article V, planes, tanks, and troops. It's an intelligence agency as well. The USA, for example, provides the Germans with intel they got on terrorist cells in their country - and so they've acted on it to good effect more than once.

Leave NATO and it dries up considerably.

The NATO mission off Somalia to prevent piracy looks after quite a bit of German trade going by sea there as well.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#4418923 - 05/03/18 04:44 AM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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The strange thing is that Germany is a wealthy and prosperous country,so you wouldn't normally expect sth like that to happen.

On top of that the Germans are renowned for their organizational skills and are meticulous when it comes to doing things properly,so again it is surprising that sth like that occurred.

And with their best aircraft!

It happens to the best of families I guess.


Stupidity is invincible.

#4418931 - 05/03/18 08:45 AM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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It's what happens if you try to balance a budget in the middle of a Euro crisis when the preferences of the general population are very much pro social spending and anti-military. The entire submarine fleet is docked for lack of spare parts. Not that the shipyards are out of work, class 214 has a worldwide reputation for being a really stealthy, non-nuclear long endurance submarine. But of course, with capacities at the limit the Navy has to get in line to order spare parts, and for years they didn't. So the 212s are on anchor.
Wouldn't be surprised if with the Eurofighters there's a similar story, probably the compound of a low level of spares, and then maybe a few long-lead items being the ones that render most of the planes inoperable. If nothing else, I like Trump putting pressure on Germany to increase defense spending, and be it just to rebuild spare parts stocks and general readiness of what we already have. I'm not even talking about an expansion of the headcount or massive orders for new tanks, just keeping the nominal force operable.

#4418936 - 05/03/18 11:09 AM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake
It's what happens if you try to balance a budget in the middle of a Euro crisis when the preferences of the general population are very much pro social spending and anti-military. The entire submarine fleet is docked for lack of spare parts. Not that the shipyards are out of work, class 214 has a worldwide reputation for being a really stealthy, non-nuclear long endurance submarine. But of course, with capacities at the limit the Navy has to get in line to order spare parts, and for years they didn't. So the 212s are on anchor.
Wouldn't be surprised if with the Eurofighters there's a similar story, probably the compound of a low level of spares, and then maybe a few long-lead items being the ones that render most of the planes inoperable. If nothing else, I like Trump putting pressure on Germany to increase defense spending, and be it just to rebuild spare parts stocks and general readiness of what we already have. I'm not even talking about an expansion of the headcount or massive orders for new tanks, just keeping the nominal force operable.


There is a Euro crisis alright,but I can't believe that Germany has been seriously affected by it,if at all.
So I find it difficult to accept that this is the real reason for this situation.


Stupidity is invincible.

#4418939 - 05/03/18 11:40 AM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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Originally Posted by No Fear

So I find it difficult to accept that this is the real reason for this situation.



Like Ssnake alluded to before, the overall sentiment of the German public is VERY pro social spending and VERY anti military spending so it causes the government to some extent to put necessary military expenditures on the back-burner.

This is really more of a cultural/ideological issue than simply a financial issue.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/03/18 11:41 AM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4418964 - 05/03/18 03:41 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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Originally Posted by No Fear
Originally Posted by Ssnake
It's what happens if you try to balance a budget in the middle of a Euro crisis ...

There is a Euro crisis alright,but I can't believe that Germany has been seriously affected by it,if at all.
So I find it difficult to accept that this is the real reason for this situation.


You read only a third of my statement. The last third has been recapitulated by PM. The remaining third is about the balanced budget. So, we've been dealing with the crisis AND balanced the budget, AND politically it's difficult to convince the public that you shouldn't cut the military budget, and rather social spending (even though that's the by far biggest fraction). So, that's what happens.

Note that stories like this are being pushed to the front pages now as the defense minister is trying to wrangle mo' money from the treasury, see here.

#4418969 - 05/03/18 04:04 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake
Originally Posted by No Fear
Originally Posted by Ssnake
It's what happens if you try to balance a budget in the middle of a Euro crisis ...

There is a Euro crisis alright,but I can't believe that Germany has been seriously affected by it,if at all.
So I find it difficult to accept that this is the real reason for this situation.


You read only a third of my statement. The last third has been recapitulated by PM. The remaining third is about the balanced budget. So, we've been dealing with the crisis AND balanced the budget, AND politically it's difficult to convince the public that you shouldn't cut the military budget, and rather social spending (even though that's the by far biggest fraction). So, that's what happens.

Note that stories like this are being pushed to the front pages now as the defense minister is trying to wrangle mo' money from the treasury, see here.



I read your statement just fine BUT I was (still am actually) under the impression that Germany had increased military spending over the past few years and despite any ''opposition'' from part of the people,the German government had tried to view the need/usefulness of a stronger/better military in a different light during the recent years.Maybe I am wrong though.

What is also crystal clear to me is that Germany was NOT affected by the Euro crisis as you mentioned,and is still the best economy in Europe.Plus,as I mentioned,Germans are famous for their organization and efficiency.So what gives?What can be the actual reason for a wealthy and well organized country like Germany dealing with problems like this one?

As far as the link you provided is concerned,Firefox blocks it and gives me a warning.


Stupidity is invincible.

#4418992 - 05/03/18 07:57 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Originally Posted by oldgrognard

Look, it could be a bunch of reasons, so I wouldn’t get too wound up until we know precisely what is going on.

Now, if it was because there are a lot of unresolved or unrepaired maintenance issues that is something else.


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#4418999 - 05/03/18 09:31 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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Originally Posted by No Fear
I was (still am actually) under the impression that Germany had increased military spending over the past few years and despite any ''opposition'' from part of the people,the German government had tried to view the need/usefulness of a stronger/better military in a different light during the recent years.

That's "not false".
Spending has increased, but from "abject levels of underfunding" to "seriously crippling" levels. I also think that this was in part deliberately done. Like, AMRAAM missiles din't receive maintenance as required, because they were scheduled to be replaced by a new one (Meteor?); unsurprisingly, that program has experienced delays, so there are sixteen "launch ready" missiles in the inventory, enough to equip four of the eight jets that are still in flying condition.
It's a similar issue with other weapon systems; in order to deal with the massive budget cuts, downsizing of the forces, and transitioning from the national defense role to one of expeditionary warfare, everything that was not of immediate necessity was sacrificed (banking on the timely delivery of new systems (didn't happen), or a change of policy (some happened, but not enough)), and we're now seeing the results of, depending on your point of view, malicious compliance, or overly optimistic projections to make military capabilities match contradictory political demands.

Quote
What is also crystal clear to me is that Germany was NOT affected by the Euro crisis as you mentioned,and is still the best economy in Europe.

Well, GDP debt levels jumped from 60% in 2008 to 85% in 2010, and are now approaching 60% again. So, Germany certainly wasn't hit as hard as a lot of other European countries if you're looking a JUST the "now active" deficit. But Germany has shouldered enormous budgetary risks which, should the Eurozone collapse after all, will become "activated debt" that will immediately kick the deficit level to something around 100% GDP. The mantra is of course, "it won't happen" - but if it does the situation will be substantially different almost literally over night.
In the context of that, the prime directive of treasury minister Schäuble (and now Scholz) was to limit the budget to a target of "zero new deficit". The budget has still been inflating in the past years due to relatively high tax levels combined with low unemployment and robust economic growth, all of which helps. So Merkel hasn't actually contracted the budget, it "merely grew with the tax base" while the amount of credit finance has been reduced from 2010 to 2016 to zero. That's where they are trying to keep it.

If however cuts to social spending are considered taboo in this context (as well as taking new credit), that means that other parts of the budget may not grow faster than the tax base unless you play a zero sum game where growth in defense must be balanced by cuts elsewhere.


In short, the military budget has improved from "absolutely horrible" to "still bad". And the consequence is a deficit in spare parts everywhere, which in turn kills readiness.


Quote
Plus,as I mentioned,Germans are famous for their organization and efficiency. So what gives?

We may be 20% better than others at this, but the tragedy is that we (and others) often think we're 100% better. In any case, I don't think it's really helpful in a serious debate to reduce things to national stererotypes. If you're confronted with schizophrenic requirements "cut spending by 20% without sacrificing capability" and you can't cut the payments to the soldiers, or force industry to shoulder those 20%, then you can either resign and be replaced by someone who's willing to tick the minister's checkboxes, or do it yourself, and tick the boxes while sacrificing in areas where the minister doesn't have set up any metrics (like, maintenance intervals, spare parts and ammo stockpile, number of exercises to maintain readiness of units that aren't scheduled for deployment).
Of course that could be considered fraudulent - or a "necessary compromise", depending on your willingness to rationalize this - and maybe that's even the passive-aggressive intent behind this. "Oh, you want to cut spending without sacrificing capabilities? Well, how about this. We'll see where that gets you in a few years." So now the problems can no longer be ignored, creating more political pressure towards increased defense spending. You could consider it "political self-defense" of the armed forces just to show how stupid and self-deceiving the political demands were in the first place. "You get what you want because you're the master, but wait until we present you the bill."

Quote
As far as the link you provided is concerned, Firefox blocks it and gives me a warning.

May be so, but I have no reason to believe that TankNet actually is a malicious site. Some algorithm at Google decided to not like it, and some browsers follow the lead of the Google nanny. The webm,aster has tried to get the site off from that blacklist, but to no avail.

#4419012 - 05/03/18 10:18 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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Quote
May be so, but I have no reason to believe that TankNet actually is a malicious site. Some algorithm at Google decided to not like it, and some browsers follow the lead of the Google nanny. The webm,aster has tried to get the site off from that blacklist, but to no avail.


There be no problems with TankNet. It is a Ssnake says.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4419077 - 05/04/18 12:05 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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To me this situation is not only shocking/amazing/unexpected but also inexcusable if I may say so for the following reasons:

1.Germany is a really wealthy,prosperous country (the richest in Europe) that not only has NOT been affected by the euro crisis but is probably the only country (perhaps with the exception of France) that has profited during the crisis period.It has also increased military spending over the past years and has started to see the value of its military forces in a different way.So money is not the issue here in my opinion.

2.Germany is not some banana republic (far from it!) that is unorganized and in a general mess.Contrary to that,it is a country famous for its organization and efficiency.''Deutsche qualität'' is a well known global slogan.

3.The Eurofighter Typhoon is not some old-soon to be retired-aircraft,but it is the finest military plane Germany has.It is not the F-4F (I know it has been retired and not still in service) that is to be decommissioned soon,so this happened and it is 'no biggie'.

4.We are not talking about a handful of aircraft that are having technical problems BUT the vast majority of it (95%?)!Practically the whole 'fleet' is in a way grounded!

Could this 'incident' be somehow related to the F-35 (there was talk about Germany considering to buy it I think) or the need to purchase a new plane?I don't know/can't be sure.

But as I said,what the articles in my 1st post describe is shocking/amazing/unexpected/inexcusable,at least to me.


Stupidity is invincible.

#4419078 - 05/04/18 12:18 PM Re: Germany has just FOUR useable Eurofighter jets available out of a fleet of 128! [Re: No Fear]  
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Originally Posted by No Fear


1.Germany is a really wealthy,prosperous country (the richest in Europe) that not only has NOT been affected by the euro crisis but is probably the only country




The US has the largest GDP and defense budget in the world and how often have planes like the F-22 or F-35 been grounded due to technical/hardware issues? Quite a few.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/04/18 12:19 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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