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#4411756 - 03/20/18 07:52 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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While they are decent flight games there is no dynamic campaign, that's why WOTR should be the better choice for single player, like WOFF.


As far as I know, there hasn´t been a single air simulator with a dynamic campaign since Falcon 4.0 by MicroProse.(edit, JJJ65 proved my bad memory, BOB and Mig Alleys are good examples too) There are and have been several offline , "career mode", randomly generated mission simulators in which the actions by the player make no real influence. They are all sort of scripted, aleatory missions within a more or less historical background and environment (in this, of course,WOFF, notoriously excels). IL2BOS latest career mode is a serious attempt at creating what Pat Wilson tried in his mod, and is a good try. WOFF´s engine creates a very nice bunch of missions well suited for a very realistic war environment because of the number of squadrons, airbases, historical war phases etc and the way they are all skillfully intertwined. The real gem is the background, the amount of historically researched and depicted squadrons, pilots, airbases, etc,... but the campaing per se, is far from dynamic. Creating a dynamic environment/campaign would be a daunting task for a AAA company, and in the case of WW1 quite a nonsense anyway. Having enemy airbases/factories/railways damaged for a certain period of time due to players action would make much more sense in a modern scenario anyway. So, as offline flight simmers we tend to look for historically well researched , plausible scenarios. We feel them as inmersive but the richness of missions and the campaign itself is quite limited in my opinion.

Last edited by ArisFuser; 03/21/18 09:23 AM.
#4411766 - 03/20/18 08:56 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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WOFF's campaign system is way more dynamic than many other so called dynamic campaigns. The normal campaign missions never just repeat they are freshly generated every time you go to fly. Even if you quit and try it again. i.e. they are not just a bunch of pre set missions as found in most sims.
Also the coming and going of regular pilots is tracked, their deaths and so on a lot of things are dynamic. Also we do keep an eye on your player and what he does, for example shooting a friendly will get you in trouble, more than once often get in in mega trouble and so on.

The only thing that isn't is you can't destroy an airfield and expect it to be still destroyed on other days later like F16 Combat Pilot (which had a far more interesting campaign system than Falcon at that time).


We introduced some scripted events for the Gotha and Zep Blitz - as they were historical events and occurred on specific days, and targets were historically specific etc. However even those will still always be somewhat different when you run them.

Last edited by Polovski; 03/20/18 08:58 PM.

Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4411813 - 03/21/18 02:17 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Pat's campaigns are the closest thing I've seen to WoFF outside older games like Falcon and RB3D. They do track individual pilots and aces in great detail in the latest iterations and include dynamic elements that are above the norm in many respects, they're not quite on WoFF level in other regards but, for the average user's purposes, his app is very adequate and user friendly.

All of the big sims these days have neglected one or both of the most important single player ingredients, the AI. To have a viable SP game you need both to play nicely together. BoX. RoF and DCS have achieved varying levels of success in creating drones that you can fight against but none of them hold a candle to the AI in WoFF, they don't even come close to the candle shop. In fact they're on another planet in another galaxy where candles are a distant rumour. No matter how sophisticated their campaigns become they will never be remotely as good as WoFF's because their AI absolutely stinks to high heaven of developer laziness or abject unwillingness to invest in improvement of what should be a core component of any good combat simulation. In IL-BoX, RoF or DCS the AI doesn't care if it lives or dies and it has no tactical nous whatsoever, it's just a slab of code that fights you until you kill it, usually either very badly or with superhuman accuracy and laser precise flying ability.

If you go and watch Hellshade's latest videos you'll see a Nieuport that just refuses to be shot down. It's wild and unpredictable maneuvers are almost human. The Nieuport makes repeated attempts to disengage rather than carry on the fight under hopeless circumstances and displays competence and an awareness of its' surroundings and situation. It even uses unorthodox and uncoordinated maneuvers in a desperate attempt to turn the tide and escape. WoFF is a perfect showcase of what a good AI should be and anyone who isn't actively trying to either emulate or better is isn't even in the game in terms of being competitive in offering a single player combat flight sim. Comparing Hellshade's video and my own experiences to my experience playing a mission in BoX or RoF's career/PWCG is like comparing chalk and cheese. PWCG is a great app, the new BoX career is well presented, good enough levels of detail to be called a campaign and both are quite adequate until you fly a mission in them. Try something like a 109 or 190 in BoX and watching as your entire flight die in short order because they haplessly tried to out turn a flight of I-16's on the deck at 250-300kph. It is absurd. I often shut the game down in disgust, wondering exactly what the latest patch notes were referring to when they touted "Improvements to AI"

What improvements exactly? Who's AI have 777/1CGS been improving since RoF was released in 2009? I think their AI programmer must forget to submit his work each patch because I certainly haven't seen any progress whatsoever in all that time. The AI in BoX is EXACTLY the same as RoF AI was in 2009. I think they're lying about improving it to be honest Trying a career in RoF is no better, the flight commander tours the lines diving after every single balloon and completely disregarding anything else until archie kills him, either that or he tries to turnfight Dr.1's in his SPAD and dies. PWCG fixes this by removing most of the balloons. DCS AI seems to be pretty much the same, I've never seen it attempt to do anything other than maneuver for a shot. It never flies defensively, never tries to escape, it's always calculating the most efficient path to maneuver for a gun solution and that's all it does. I can't comment on ED's dynamic campaign because there is no such thing which is a mystery to me. Imagine a new Silent Hunter game where you can go into the boat, turn on all the switches and tootle around at sea but apart from that nothing ever happens. Seems like a total waste of time to me unless you really like flicking historically accurate switches. Or perhaps a Formula 1 game where you just drive around the track on your own.

In short the latest sims are offering a single player experience that is either non-existent or a mile wide but an inch deep whereas WoFF offers you depth and breadth that would intimidate Captain Nemo. I sincerely hope that these new companies get their act together and at least get on a competitive footing, until then keep showing them how it's done OBD.

Last edited by Ace_Pilto; 03/21/18 02:19 AM.

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#4411842 - 03/21/18 07:39 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: Polovski]  
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Originally Posted by Polovski
WOFF's campaign system is way more dynamic than many other so called dynamic campaigns. The normal campaign missions never just repeat they are freshly generated every time you go to fly. Even if you quit and try it again. i.e. they are not just a bunch of pre set missions as found in most sims.
Also the coming and going of regular pilots is tracked, their deaths and so on a lot of things are dynamic. Also we do keep an eye on your player and what he does, for example shooting a friendly will get you in trouble, more than once often get in in mega trouble and so on.

The only thing that isn't is you can't destroy an airfield and expect it to be still destroyed on other days later like F16 Combat Pilot (which had a far more interesting campaign system than Falcon at that time).


We introduced some scripted events for the Gotha and Zep Blitz - as they were historical events and occurred on specific days, and targets were historically specific etc. However even those will still always be somewhat different when you run them.


S! Polovski, can we expect new things with dynamic campaign in WOTR ?

#4411846 - 03/21/18 09:00 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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All of the big sims these days have neglected one or both of the most important single player ingredients, the AI. To have a viable SP game you need both to play nicely together. BoX. RoF and DCS have achieved varying levels of success in creating drones that you can fight against but none of them hold a candle to the AI in WoFF, they don't even come close to the candle shop.


Nuff said.

#4411850 - 03/21/18 09:07 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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When talking about dynamic campaigns it is necessary to mention Rowan's Mig Alley and Battle of Britain. IMHO, these sims have the best dynamic campaigns I have seen so far. Especially BoBII:WOV with the latest patches is the gem in the subject of campaign complexity.

#4411861 - 03/21/18 09:46 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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JimBob the campaign system in WOTR has been redesigned for WW2 - not only specifically for the period we are dealing with, but can cope with other periods in WW2 by adapting the battle orders underlying it. All good stuff, however it still incorporates many good or useful parts of the WOFF campaign.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4412079 - 03/22/18 12:06 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Hellshade Online content
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I am going to have to go with Ace Pilto on this one. While I appreciate and respect what Pat has done with his PWCG, all of his efforts are hamstrung by the effect the horrible AI has on the experience. I just flew another mission in my WOFF UE Jasta 2 career against a pair (maybe more?) of Nieuport pilots. Those little bastards do not want to get shot. It's the kind of flying that makes me come back to WOFF UE over and over again. The campaign in WOFF UE, matched with it's excellent AI, provide a one two punch that knocks out the competition, in my opinion, every time for single player sim experiences.



Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4412164 - 03/22/18 12:24 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Oh and fundamental on the Dynamic campaign point that is often missed.. one big "Dynamic" function not found in most sims, is that in WOFF the enemy flights are actually on real missions, not spawned. Enemy troops are out in major battles, tanks etc. All fighting each other.
The world is a living world.

Big difference from spawning a few aircraft or objects along the way or only at the target. In WOFF you can stumble across activity or completely miss it by luck just as in real life.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4412207 - 03/22/18 03:11 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: Polovski]  
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JimBobb Offline
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Originally Posted by Polovski
Oh and fundamental on the Dynamic campaign point that is often missed.. one big "Dynamic" function not found in most sims, is that in WOFF the enemy flights are actually on real missions, not spawned. Enemy troops are out in major battles, tanks etc. All fighting each other.
The world is a living world.

Big difference from spawning a few aircraft or objects along the way or only at the target. In WOFF you can stumble across activity or completely miss it by luck just as in real life.



That is great Pol, but can it be done real time for WOTR? The only thing that kind of brakes this immersion for me that it is not real time, meaning it would be cool if you could see everything on map moving while you are sitting in menu tower.

I guess this is what makes Falcon 4 and Enemy Engaged such great, that you can see it in real time! (and also the destroyable buildings that are destroyed over time).

In enemy engaged you can just sit in the tower and watch the war fight itself if you want to.

#4412211 - 03/22/18 03:39 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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JimBobb Offline
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Having enemy airbases/factories/railways damaged for a certain period of time due to players action would make much more sense in a modern scenario anyway. So, as offline flight simmers we tend to look for historically well researched , plausible scenarios. We feel them as inmersive but the richness of missions and the campaign itself is quite limited in my opinion.


While true, a game is a game wink and for example I would like to be able to change the fate of history,,, that's the charm of video games wink

Look at Hearts of Iron 4 or Europa Universalis 4 by Paradox, it's a godd example of how to make a sanbox game with historical background.

#4412688 - 03/25/18 10:34 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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I'm with ACE and Hellshade also. The ai is unbelievable(in a good way) after having played games like il2 and rof myself. I love the survival instincts of e/ac. The bustards are hard to bag at least for me.In my last mission tonight I had to do forced landing after a roland dived and rolled and climbed and shot me full of holes lol. I could not get a steady bead on that bugger. Love it Great work OBD! Not many games can hold my interest long like I believe WOff will. This is definitely a much needed breath of fresh air for the genre.

#4412689 - 03/25/18 10:43 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: Hellshade]  
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How nice of your wingman to steal err come to your aid lol with that nupe lol

#4412690 - 03/25/18 11:09 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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AMEN TO THAT!!


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#4412703 - 03/25/18 01:48 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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I do not think OBD have to convince any Woff owner in buying Wotr, we know what we are getting and that it will be excellent in its own way.

The Wotr market expension is all about the actual combat flysimmer, that is now flying a payware game like BoX, Clod-blitz, DCS or playing the free to get, Falcon, BoB2, il2-1946 & CFS3 expansion packs. How to get these flyers into Wotr and make them pay $60,-

Last edited by dutch; 03/25/18 02:01 PM.
#4412760 - 03/25/18 09:04 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Just a question bout WOTR.Are the differences in plane fighting styles gonna be noticeable?Like FW190 is a boom and zoom type compared to a turn fighter like the Spitfire.Just wondering if the CFS3 engine allows this.....

#4412779 - 03/25/18 10:57 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Originally Posted by Hellshade
Originally Posted by Bronnx

Excuse me, please : which flight sim is this one ?
Thank you


It's Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator 3 - but with a lot of the WOFF UE textures ported over.

Could you please tell me where / how to start ?
Where exactly do i find all those mods, from WOFF, on this subforum ?
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/forumdisplay.php/7-CFS3-General-Discussion
Thank you


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#4412812 - 03/26/18 10:22 AM Re: WOTR news? [Re: dutch]  
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JimBobb Offline
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Originally Posted by dutch
. How to get these flyers into Wotr and make them pay $60,-


I would pay 120 $ if I could get this on GOG or Steam, always loosing my DVDs and download links expire from avangate !

all other flight sims (il 1946, clod, BOX , DCS) are on steam also, just sayin.

#4412913 - 03/26/18 06:16 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Bronnx Offline
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Nobody can help me, guys?
I already opened an account on this forum, but i can't post anything, yet


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#4412950 - 03/26/18 07:45 PM Re: WOTR news? [Re: JimBobb]  
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This thread has turned into a free for all, will close it now and open a new one when more news...

Bronx, I don't understand, you just posted here, to say you can't post here?

Mods for WOFF are in the MODS subform?
http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/384/1/wings-over-flanders-fields-mods


Anyway closing this now wild thread.


Last edited by Polovski; 03/26/18 07:52 PM.

Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
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