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#4409138 - 03/06/18 06:54 AM Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong  
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Haukka81 Offline
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Lol biggrin


I play wrong , so dcs has no bugs . That was easy fix ... :P


I5 8400 , 16gb , GTX 1070 oc , Win10 64bit . Virpil T-50 27" monitor with 2560x1440 rez ... DCS + Oculus CV1 + Samsung Odyssey . (odyssey is better for flight sims)
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#4409140 - 03/06/18 06:55 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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Haukka81 Offline
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I5 8400 , 16gb , GTX 1070 oc , Win10 64bit . Virpil T-50 27" monitor with 2560x1440 rez ... DCS + Oculus CV1 + Samsung Odyssey . (odyssey is better for flight sims)
#4409146 - 03/06/18 09:03 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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leaf_on_the_wind Offline
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Jesus H T F Christ, the mind boggles

Last edited by leaf_on_the_wind; 03/07/18 03:45 PM.


Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4409147 - 03/06/18 09:24 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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Haukka81 Offline
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Haukka81  Offline
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Forums (dcs) are full of white knights or least they have got lots of rose tintend glasses ?? biggrin


I5 8400 , 16gb , GTX 1070 oc , Win10 64bit . Virpil T-50 27" monitor with 2560x1440 rez ... DCS + Oculus CV1 + Samsung Odyssey . (odyssey is better for flight sims)
#4409150 - 03/06/18 09:40 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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theOden Offline
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As a programmer reading "and those that break it from lack of knowledge" I honestly hope he really isn't a programmer.
It's up to me (us?) to verify I have all variables in range before I continue exceuting code, otherwise I need to throw an error telling user what's missing.

#4409151 - 03/06/18 09:45 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Quote
We don't want to paint ourselves in a corner and provide a 2.5 stable release date as there are too many unknowns regarding fixing some of the identified issues.


Really?
Source
Quote
The 2.5.0 "Release" version will launch a week or two later, depending on how the Open Beta release goes.


That thread was an interesting read smile


- Ice
#4409186 - 03/06/18 02:53 PM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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The perpetually moving goalposts of ED.
Were going to release 2.5 at the End of January, thats a promise
No we didnt say it was a release release, its a beta release. The release release will be one to two weeks later
Erm, that was if no problems were found....
If you don't like betas go back to 1.5. Oh and dont buy any of our #%&*$# because they're all frikkin betas, perpetual betas actually because were such a dynamic company, its even in our name, that nothing is ever really finished. So take our moderators advice and save your money.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4409201 - 03/06/18 04:17 PM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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HomeFries Offline
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My post on that thread:
Quote

Here's my $.02 on the whole thing, as both a software developer/integrator and a rabid fan:
  • Kudos to ED for not releasing DCS 2.5 as is to the release branch. As great as 2.5 is, the bugs would turn people off more than the wait. Those of us who are hardcore have the OpenBeta, and those who will complain will likely do so regardless.
  • Not finding these major bugs is understandable. Detecting a memory leak requires a test with a long duration (even then with no guarantees unless you know what you're looking for), and detecting many multiplayer issues (including the aforementioned memory leak) requires a lot of clients with disparate configurations.
  • Similarly, regression testing normally just checks things around new features to make sure the new code didn't break earlier code. This is as much art as science, and is a tall order in a complex piece of software like DCS.
  • However, 2.5 was advertised, even promised by the end of January, with a migration plan specifying 1-2 weeks following an OpenBeta period. Yes, that assumes OB tested well, but that will be addressed in my next bullet.
  • I respect and applaud what the moderators here are doing in facilitating as much information as feasible on the forums. However, since we are now five weeks past the OB release, ED should be putting out updates at the same level of exposure as their 2.5 announcements. I have a few friends who are waiting on the 2.5 release to come back into DCS, and they are not forum hounds like the rest of us. They rely on announcements like the weekly newsletters. This is the medium that ED should use to communicate progress following the expired deadline.
  • The longer we have to wait for official updates, the more frustrated or jaded people become. Hype with stagnation becomes cynicism. Even if the update is a couple of sentences in a newsletter like "we fixed a couple of minor multiplayer connection issues, and we're still working on the memory leak," this update is appreciated by all and also gives us a feel for progress without improperly articulating a timeline.

I guess that was a little more than $.02, but there you have it!


-Home Fries

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
- Robert A. Heinlein

The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#4409207 - 03/06/18 05:04 PM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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theOden Offline
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For once (first?) I have to disagree HomeFries, after such long time there is no excuse for shipping something like 2.5 OB.

Testing new features is one thing but regression tests are time consuming since they test the whole product despite new features or updated old ones, in my books - we might have different definitions of regression tests but I can't see ED is doing anything close to such tests.

I honestly don't think they have any betatesters and all is just initial developer tests and from there they throw it out with an OB label looking at what will happen.

#4409221 - 03/06/18 07:04 PM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Not finding major bugs is not understandable at all.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4409226 - 03/06/18 07:24 PM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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Mokkeri Offline
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Is that sling bug fixed, or is it campaign(i dont have Argo) ,or cargo related? I tested in editor and all works well. I would be bad betatester because i cant reproduce most of bugs what i have read from forums.

#4409257 - 03/06/18 08:40 PM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Quote
We don't want to paint ourselves in a corner and provide a 2.5 stable release date as there are too many unknowns regarding fixing some of the identified issues.


Really?
Source
Quote
The 2.5.0 "Release" version will launch a week or two later, depending on how the Open Beta release goes.


That thread was an interesting read smile


Guess I will be waiting even longer than I had thought! I had a strong feeling it would go into March but I would have thought it would be out by now. Oh well...

#4409258 - 03/06/18 08:41 PM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Mokkeri]  
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leaf_on_the_wind Offline
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Originally Posted by Mokkeri
Is that sling bug fixed, or is it campaign(i dont have Argo) ,or cargo related? I tested in editor and all works well. I would be bad betatester because i cant reproduce most of bugs what i have read from forums.


sling loading is a bit f**ked, loads can swing and keep swinging further and further until they fly off



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4409290 - 03/06/18 10:32 PM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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Force10 Offline
I'm just a
Force10  Offline
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Yes, we understand programming software can be difficult...but most of us know better than to charge folks for work that we don't fully know how to complete and fix in a business like timeframe. Many software/gaming devs manage to put out good software and fix bugs within a reasonable time.

Just getting tired of the "But programming software is hard" excuse. Perhaps if it's outside of your skill level, you should have chosen a different line of work.


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#4409302 - 03/06/18 11:15 PM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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DaveP63 Offline
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Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Jesus T F Christ, the mind boggles


I came to post exactly this, except I was going to use H. I'm done with it for six months or so, if not longer.


i5-4460@3.2ghz, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte GTX1050Ti 4GB, 2TB HDD, 500GB SDD
#4409317 - 03/07/18 12:33 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: theOden]  
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Originally Posted by Force10
Just getting tired of the "But programming software is hard" excuse. Perhaps if it's outside of your skill level, you should have chosen a different line of work.

This! smile


Originally Posted by theOden
I honestly don't think they have any betatesters and all is just initial developer tests and from there they throw it out with an OB label looking at what will happen.

Which is something I don't understand at all. I'm sure ED has a good selection of rabid fans that will beta test for free? Get like 500-1000 people, get them to sign an NDA, test!! Is that not possible? Genuine question.


- Ice
#4409341 - 03/07/18 02:36 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: - Ice]  
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Monnie Rock Offline
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Force10
Just getting tired of the "But programming software is hard" excuse. Perhaps if it's outside of your skill level, you should have chosen a different line of work.

This! smile


Originally Posted by theOden
I honestly don't think they have any betatesters and all is just initial developer tests and from there they throw it out with an OB label looking at what will happen.

Which is something I don't understand at all. I'm sure ED has a good selection of rabid fans that will beta test for free? Get like 500-1000 people, get them to sign an NDA, test!! Is that not possible? Genuine question.



Another factor to consider is: What does ED do with the data collected from the beta testers?

Just an example of a imaginary game developer

Beta Tester #001: You have a huge memory leak in beta version x.x.x.xxxxx.
Company Tech: Thank you. This will take some time to sort out
Company Marketing/Producer Teams: We do not have time for this, send it out as Open Beta, deal with it later

Last edited by Monnie Rock; 03/07/18 02:44 AM.


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#4409346 - 03/07/18 03:10 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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IceecI Offline
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Why would they hire beta testers, when they have lots of them and the ones even pay for ED to do that. That's why DCS versions always have bugs on release, they haven't been tested properly yet. Only after some time - bugs start to appear because now the 'beta testers' have the first change to try the version and find them. Heh - talking about free labour... - And that's not even all - the beta testers also praise ED for that!


Give a man fish and he gets food, give a man a fishing rod and he asks for another one.
#4409347 - 03/07/18 03:19 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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Monnie Rock Offline
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Look who did beta testing for Falcon 4.0

Falcon 4.0 Beta Tester



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#4409352 - 03/07/18 04:01 AM Re: Its not broken, you are just playing it wrong [Re: Haukka81]  
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jenrick Offline
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I'll say on the major game crashing bug front:

I worked as the studio QA night shift lead for Acclaim entertainment (NBA Jam and Turok to name the most recognizable SKU's I worked on), and had 15 guys working for me. That at the time (early 2000's) was the largest studio QA team in the WORLD (sounds hella good on your resume), corporate had anywhere from 100 to 300 testers depending on how many projects we had going and that were getting close to publishing. Additionally on a console title it's standardized hardware, a non-issue basically compared to all the myriad of different PC options out there.

Any product before it would be green light for publication has to go to the console manufactures for testing as well, where they try to break it, and verify it meets all their technical certification requirements (TCRs). So easily 500+ full time QA employees on fixed hardware have hammered away at a product for weeks (TCR's take about 2 weeks alone). Test plans are run, things are smoke tested, etc. To be honest what most people think of as "beta testing" something like DCS isn't even close to real testing. I'm guessing no one's here verified the expand ASCII character set for all localized languages works for pilot record naming etc (damaged media testing was at least fun to setup). So every possible thing that all the QA professionals can come up with has been tested.

Turok 5 for the Nintendo Game Cube. We send it to Nintendo, they send back about 25 items that have to be fixed for a green light, no problem nothing major. We send it back, and they run the entire protocol again (you have to pay for each submission so might as well get your monies worth I guess), and it's green lit. I send my troops home after 42 straight 16 hour days. Hell we slept in the office for the last 2 weeks. We come back 2 days later, and have a nice picture in our email waiting for us, of the gold master disc for the pressing of Game Cube version, pretty cool. About three hours later I hear a particular buzz, that freezes my blood. It's the buzz a hard locked Game Cube makes. I slowly walk over to the cube it's coming from, praying it's someone messing around with an old version. My guys face is white as a sheet, and the rest of my crew gather round, 16 of us gathered in one cube, starting in mute horror at a frozen Game Cube with the approved release candidate of Turok 5. Time to do some boss stuff, can we replicate it? Might be a one off, bad hardware, bad burn, could be plenty of things besides a bug. Yeah no. Replicateable, on every machine we've got, on 15 different discs. !$&*#&$(@&#(&((!@#!!!!!!! In case you're wondering it shipped like that, no way in hell corporate was going to sink the money it had already spent to press copies. No patching for the GC either, not a capability. No "second version" release either, why risk having another bug sneak in fixing this one?

So, tt happens, it's rare, but it certainly happens that a game breaker makes it in the wild even with very thorough, expensive, and resources intensive QA process.

-Jenrick

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