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#4402352 - 01/29/18 05:52 AM Battle of Chosin  
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Pooch Offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erCtuu76P00

Just watched this. It was too good not to share.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

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#4402360 - 01/29/18 07:51 AM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: Pooch]  
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Saved. Thanks.

#4402361 - 01/29/18 08:07 AM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: Pooch]  
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This was pretty good. Thank you.

-Skater


"As Iron Sharpens Iron, so does a friend sharpen a friend." Proverbs 27:17
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28
Never, ever, underestimate the ability of people to discount Occam's Razor. - Dart
"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." - Grover Norquist
#4402368 - 01/29/18 11:06 AM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: Pooch]  
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PanzerMeyer Offline
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Whoa Skater! I haven’t seen a post from you in years here!


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4403271 - 02/04/18 01:30 AM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: Pooch]  
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VMIalpha454 Offline
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Chattanooga, Tn

1:48:32

My great uncle Charlie is the Marine playing Taps over the cemetery at Hungnam. He fought at Inchon, Seoul, and Chosin Reservoir with 1st MP Company. During the battle, he was at Hagaru Ri. The story goes that my great grandmother found out he survived the battle by seeing the newsreel footage at the movie theater. Semper Fi.


"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold."
1stLt. Clifton B. Cates, USMC
in Belleau Wood, 19 July 1918
#4403386 - 02/04/18 05:41 PM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: Pooch]  
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Salute to your uncle and Grand father..I had an Uncle who survived Iwo Jima and Chosen under Chesty..Men who made me want to be a Marine and served under Chestys son in law Captain Bill Danby at Khe Sanh something i carry with pride to this day and yes indeed Semper Fi


Russ
Semper Fi
#4403393 - 02/04/18 05:58 PM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: Pooch]  
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I am always in awe of those who served in any conflict. On the subject of Chesty Puller, this book is excellent.

https://www.amazon.com/Marine-Chest...mp;psc=1&refRID=QYVHJ8A3QRS3RD2XGXQX


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#4403399 - 02/04/18 06:25 PM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: rwatson]  
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VMIalpha454 Offline
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Originally Posted by rwatson
served under Chestys son in law Captain Bill Danby at Khe Sanh something i carry with pride to this day and yes indeed Semper Fi


I was at VMI to watch Col. Dabney receive his long overdue Navy Cross in, IIRC, 2005. He was in a wheelchair, on oxygen, then. Still, after he was awarded the medal, he rose his large frame to attention and said something to the effect of, “This may be the last order I ever give you. Follow me.” Then he sat down and was wheeled out of Jackson Hall followed once more by the Marines he’d served with on 881s. It was a powerful thing to witness. Thanks for your service, rwatson.


"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold."
1stLt. Clifton B. Cates, USMC
in Belleau Wood, 19 July 1918
#4403541 - 02/05/18 02:00 PM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: Pooch]  
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Captian bill was one fine Marine and I was honored to serve with him..i still remember Call To Colors while Nva guns were firing on us we had enough time to duck but stood tall and never stood prouder and those football fools make me a bit upset Good men stood tall and they #%&*$#
Attention to Colors."

The order having been given, Captain Wiliam H. Dabney, a product of the Virginia Military Institute, snapped to attention, faced the jerry-rigged flagpole, and saluted, as did every other man in Company I, 3d Batalion, 26th Marines. The ceremony might well have been at any one of a hundred military installations around the world except for a few glaring irregularities.

The parade ground was a battle-scarred hilltop to the west of Khe Sanh and the men in formation stood half-submerged in trenches or foxholes. Instead of crisply starched utilities, razor sharp creases, and gleaming brass, these Marines sported scraggly beards, ragged trousers, and rotted helmet liner straps. The only man in the company who could play a bugle, Second Lieutenant Owen S. Mathews, lifted the pock-marked instrument to his lips and spat out a choppy version of "To the Colors" while two enlisted men raced to the RC-292 radio antenna which served as the flag-pole and gingerly attached the Stars and Stripes. As the mast with its shredded banner came upright,the Marines could hear the ominous "thunk," "thunk," "thunk," to the southwest of their position which meant that North Vietnamese 120 mortar rounds had left their tubes. They also knew that in 21 seconds those "thunks" would be replaced by much louder, closer sounds, but no one budged until Old Glory waved high over the hill.

When Lieutenant Matthews sharply cut of the last note of his piece, Company I disappeared; men dropped into trenches, dived headlong into foxholes, or scrambled into bunkers. The area which moments before had been bristling with humanity was suddenly a ghost town. Seconds later explosions walked across the hilltop spewing black smoke, dirt, and debris into the air. Rocks, splinters, and spent shell fragments rained on the flattened Marines but, as usual, no one was hurt. As quickly as the attack came, it was over. While the smoke lazily drifted away, a much smaller banner rose from the Marines’ positions. A pole adorned with a pair of red, silk panties––Maggie’s Drawers––was waved back and forth above one trench line to inform the enemy that he had missed again. A few men stood up and jeered or cursed at the distant gunners; others simply saluted with an appropriate obscene gesture. The daily flag-raising ceremony on Hill 881 South was over.

The episode was just one obscure incident which coupled with hundreds of others made up the battle for Khe Sanh.


Russ
Semper Fi
#4404172 - 02/08/18 11:24 AM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: Pooch]  
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Schwalbe Offline
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Way too much military defeatism in this one.
The only mention of air power, and they divert it to a fratricide. ....What?


The result of battle of Chosin is a nail biter. The most fair assessment among historians seems to be a tie. The 1st Marines pulled out of a heavy encirclement, remained organizationally intact and inflicted heavy casualties to the enemy, I think they're tactically very successful if nothing else, and the marines are as tough as they're expected to be aided by very strong air support, air dropped supplies and firepower. I've still a few documents a few years back when they were still allowed to be published or.. somehow slipped thru maybe. Anyway the PVA 9th Corps (20th, 26th, 27th army) was mostly combat ineffective post battle, the 27th army had only 2000 combatants after, down from some 40,000 before. Two main divisions the 58th and 60th in the 20th army post battle only had 200 combatants added together. Total loss dead+wounded estimated as high as 40%, especially looking at replenishment figures, both 20th and 27th army replenished 15k soilders. 20th army R&R period 3 months, until mid March 1951. 1st marine div R&R basically a week. Active combat Jan. 1951. Or as the PVA 9th army telegraph to PVA HQ on Dec. 1st, "Battle not very well fought, not only unable to annihilate US 1st marine div but also suffered heavy casualties and a huge loss in combat power." 9th army do not consider it a victory themselves.
PVA objective 1: gain ground in Northeastern Korea - achieved; 2. Annihilation of 1st marine division - failed; 1st marine division objective 1: to the Yalu - failed; 2. breakout of the encirclement - achieved. So... tie, I do reckon. Again, who the heck in his right mind would still try to set attack as objective when surrounded on all sides. Armies had been repeatedly completely destroyed due to encirclement in like just a few years earlier.

Anyway point is better stuff to watch than this which is more like People's Daily US edition. I watched till 1hr time mark and couldn't continue any longer (it popped on my youtube feed not via this thread rest assured!)

Last edited by Schwalbe; 02/08/18 11:32 AM.
#4404302 - 02/09/18 01:52 AM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: Schwalbe]  
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VMIalpha454 Offline
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Originally Posted by Schwalbe
Way too much military defeatism in this one.


I enjoyed the documentary for the film footage, more than anything else. Otherwise it does leave quite a bit to be desired.

Originally Posted by Schwalbe
The only mention of air power, and they divert it to a fratricide. ....What?


I found it interesting to listen to the characterization of Task Force Faith in this documentary. I have always been curious about the difference in performance of the Army and Marines in Korea. I believe there was a fundamental difference in mentality between men of the two branches that resulted in the vastly different results we see. In Donald Knox's "Korean War: Pusan to Chosin, an Oral History" that difference stands out glaringly in the first person accounts of the men themselves. Essentially, the Army units could not continue to function in the absence of their leadership, while the Marine units could. They devolved into an every man for himself mindset. I read a book specifically about the experience of TF Faith (the name escapes me at the moment) and it was so depressing that I didnt want to read anymore about 2/3 of the way through. It was terribly sad. They were massacred. One of their senior commanders literally ran to the Chinese thinking they were friendlies and was captured/killed/never seen again. In the absence of leadership they crumbled. Couldn't manage to communicate with Hagaru Ri. Couldn't communicate with CAS. One bad air drop seemed to seal their fate, when 40mm rounds were dropped to their tanks, and tank rounds to their Dusters, taking both units out of the fight. If you're interested in the read, PM me and I will get you the title. One quote that I remember was from an Army officer who had served at Bastogne, who said something to the effect that, "Bastogne wasn't $h!t compared to Chosin Reservoir."

Originally Posted by Schwalbe
The 1st Marines pulled out of a heavy encirclement, remained organizationally intact and inflicted heavy casualties to the enemy


Just wanted to address this common mistake. 1st Marines refers to 1st Marine Regiment. All regiments are called, "__ Marines." The divisions are called, "__ Marine Division." The documentary makes the same mistake. I only point it out for clarity purposes, because it becomes confusing when it is misused.

Originally Posted by Schwalbe
1st marine division objective 1: to the Yalu - failed


While the 10 Corps objective was to reach the Yalu, Gen. Smith was deliberately dragging his feet in the days leading up to the start of the battle. The Marines and Army patrols had been encountering Chinese soldiers and had taken prisoners. The Chinese appearance was alarming and Gen. Smith took his concerns to Almond and MacArthur, but was dismissed out of hand. Fearing the units of his division would be isolated and annihilated, Smith deliberately delayed, maintaining a mutually supporting disposition. He wasn't trying to rush to the Yalu, but preparing for a suspected attack.

One thing I found interesting, but which was omitted from the documentary, is that in order for the division to move all its vehicles and personnel out on that single narrow road the Marines had to systematically assault the bordering heights the entire way back. It wasn't as if they were just moseying along the road while being shot at. There were troops on the flanks assaulting and clearing those hills. Apparently there was a real problem keeping the Army survivors engaged in that endeavor. They, broken and demoralized, kept drifting back to the road and the vehicles. I say that not as a dig at the Army, but because it is historically accurate. There has been a sort of effort to soften the reality of what happened to them and how those units performed, because it was so poorly. I think it is worth remembering, if for no other reason than because it illustrates the severity of the battle and the accomplishment of the 1st Marine Division in actually fighting their way back to the sea.






"I have only two men out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold."
1stLt. Clifton B. Cates, USMC
in Belleau Wood, 19 July 1918
#4405261 - 02/15/18 06:03 AM Re: Battle of Chosin [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Skater Offline
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Whoa Skater! I haven’t seen a post from you in years here!



Hey PM... Yeah I tend to do a lot of window shopping and very little buying lately. 2 year contract in North Africa is done... Got back a year ago today. Now I'm into relaxing and enjoying my children. smile

-Skater


"As Iron Sharpens Iron, so does a friend sharpen a friend." Proverbs 27:17
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28
Never, ever, underestimate the ability of people to discount Occam's Razor. - Dart
"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." - Grover Norquist

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