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#4405057 - 02/14/18 02:37 AM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
Originally Posted by ARUP
It's too bad the Sopwith Triplane didn't get a chance to mix with the Fokker D-VII because the 'Tripehound' would have had them for breakfast, lunch and supper! That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it! duel

Well you have a point in turn fighting, but the tripe would suffer from lack of air speed. The D-VII could run away or stay at his own choice, and boom and zoom would make things dicey.

Nah! The two craft have very similar speeds according to some of the books I have at hand. The Fokker might have a better Vne for diving (your 'boom and zoom') and maybe the ones with higher compression engines will be a little faster but I'd wager the Tripe would 'put a hurt' on it if it tried to get away! The Fokker better hope it gets some good shots in initially! Whenever I fly the Fokker Triplane against SPADs the SPAD can get away but not without getting a tail full of lead! It's all fun!

#4405400 - 02/16/18 01:46 AM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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When I fly the Dr.1 I find my best escape is a corkscrew climb.

And, if we are offering up opinions, I suspect the DVII would have ate the Sop/Tri for breakfast.
I think the (apparent) respect the Germans had for the Sopwith, while flying their early Albs, gives a bit of a distorted notion as to the Sopwiths overall combat performance.

#4405587 - 02/17/18 03:05 AM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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I flew 'Quick Combat' with the Tripehound vs. the D-VII. The craft are fairly evenly matched. In the Tripehound I can stay above the D-VII but it is difficult to go in after the D-VII because it is a little faster. If I reverse roles the Tripehound AI won't use the benefit of it's ability to climb and I eventually bag the Tripehound! It would be interesting to have two 'human' players go against each other! So... if 'mano-a-mano' the the D-VII pilot needs to get a head on burst into the Tripehound ASAP and the Triplane needs to get a height advantage ASAP and try to wear the D-VII pilot down. I'll fly 'Quick Combat' a few more times to get the feel for it each way. Personally, I don't like the way the D-VII handles. I think the D-VIII 'Flying Razor' really sucks. The Fokker Drl is the best turn fighter of all and I think the SEs are the best all around fighters. I like flying the DH-5s and Pfalz birds the most because, as 'dogs' besting an enemy is an achievement worthy of note! The Hannover CL jobs are fun because they can be flown like fighters. Except for the Brisfit all the two seaters are prey!

#4405613 - 02/17/18 09:03 AM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Nice.
Will be anxious to hear the results of your further testing.

#4405616 - 02/17/18 10:02 AM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Fokker DVII vs Tripe...ummm, shouldn´t we add this difference to the equation?

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


Quote

And, if we are offering up opinions, I suspect the DVII would have ate the Sop/Tri for breakfast.


+1

Last edited by ArisFuser; 02/17/18 10:26 AM.
#4405632 - 02/17/18 01:40 PM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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In the hands of even an adequate pilot the D.VII and its variants could eat anything and everything for breakfast. It was, by nearly all accounts, the best fighter/scout that saw combat service in the War.

#4405633 - 02/17/18 01:42 PM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Regarding the D.VII... an excerpt taken from an article on History.net about Ernst Udet.

"Despite the remarkable early successes of Operation Michael, which had seen German storm troopers advance up to 40 miles against the British and French, the war was still far from won. When Udet returned to his unit, the conflict was entering its last, dreadful months, which would see some of the most intense fighting of the entire war. His unit was now equipped with the formidable Fokker D.VII, the plane generally considered the finest fighter of WWI."

I remembering reading years ago that he described the D.VII as an aircraft that could make an average pilot into a high scoring ace in a matter of weeks.

OvS

Last edited by OvStachel; 02/17/18 01:43 PM.

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#4405639 - 02/17/18 01:56 PM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: OvStachel]  
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Originally Posted by OvStachel

I remembering reading years ago that he described the D.VII as an aircraft that could make an average pilot into a high scoring ace in a matter of weeks.

OvS


And this, IMHO, is the most important part of the quote.
Besides the obvious ability of the DVII it not only was a very capable aircraft but it had no bad habits or vices that made it difficult to fly...or to get the best out of the aircraft. Ergo almost anyone who had a scarf and goggles could make the DVII a formidable foe - or so history reports. An important footnote in late war Germany where a multitude of factors prevented pilot training from being where the air service wished it would be.

And, of course, if you had the ability and a decent aircraft I think it is safe to say the Germans had a “target rich” enviorment over the front for the “average pilot to an ace” part. In fact if you read deeply into all the German pilots who had more then 5 victories (aces) it appears to my eye that the bulk came in mid-late 1918.

#4405667 - 02/17/18 04:52 PM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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The later engined variants were what made the D-VII such a superior all around airplane. The D-VII didn't have any superior performance aspect other than its combined averages were better than most... rate of climb, Vne, Vmax, Vstall, etc. A SPAD may be faster but can't turn or climb as well, etc. Remember... pilots felt cheated if they didn't get the BMW powered version! There weren't very many of those to go around. A Mercedes D-VII climbs 10K feet in about 13'49" and the BMW one does this in 7' which is astounding! The Tripehound does this in just under 12' and this is an airplane designed almost 2 years earlier. This data is from some Datafiles on hand. This is only one variable under consideration. There are many others. Don't get me wrong... I think the D-VII is a good airplane but my impression is 'the media' have over-hyped its abilities. It makes for interesting research when you consider geo-political as well as psychological and economic factors. Plus... anything might be better than the tired Albi and Pfalz! I'm going to do some more 'Quick Combat' with the various craft. It's a great way to discover the strengths and weaknesses of these birds!!!

#4405703 - 02/17/18 07:52 PM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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Quick and interesting read on the variations of the D.VII... I never knew the 'F' in D.VII(F) stood for the BMW designer's last name that designed the engine. I just thought it was a variation serial letter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_D.VII


The Black Baron of Boistrancourt returns!!

I'd rather die fighting, than live for nothing. - Gen. G.S. Patton
#4405738 - 02/18/18 12:57 AM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: ArisFuser]  
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Originally Posted by ArisFuser
Fokker DVII vs Tripe...ummm, shouldn´t we add this difference to the equation?

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


Quote

And, if we are offering up opinions, I suspect the DVII would have ate the Sop/Tri for breakfast.


+1


Immelmann had a three gun Eindekker and we all know how that turned out! skullhead

#4405784 - 02/18/18 08:38 AM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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So what you are trying to prove is that having more firepower shouldn´t be a factor to be taken into account in a dogfight?

#4405918 - 02/18/18 05:21 PM Re: Fokker DVII combat style? [Re: DukeIronHand]  
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I'm not trying to prove anything. One well placed bullet is all it takes! Fire power is great but weapons are heavy and increase complexity. Weight changes performance. Complexity in things increases chances of problems. Finding the elusive happy medium is key. Guynemer had a special SPAD that used Bleriot controls for a singular reason. On paper it was great but in actuality not so great! The Italians had a machine gun with an outrageous rate of fire but the calibre was ineffective. There isn't any right or wrong answer but sometimes people reach conclusions that might go against 'traditional' thought. Historiography is very exciting and I like to keep an open mind about historical events, places and the people who lived it and how they recorded it! That's why I'm not so enamored of the D-VII. It's a great airplane but its 'greatness' isn't on such a lofty plane in my mind as it is in others'. The Treaty of Versailles doesn't just single out the D-VII but the D-VII is the only one you hear about. It's all about historiography!

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