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#4402872 - 02/01/18 03:38 PM A question for the devs and other computer gurus here  
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RAF_Louvert Offline
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L'Etoile du Nord
As some of you know I am currently working on a fairly massive mod of the Belfort aerodrome and surrounding area and despite the amount of objects I currently have placed I am still seeing no noticeable hit in performance. FPS is hanging right around 65 with WOFF settings on full, even in a 7v7 furball directly above the citadel. Loading of everything in the landscape at the beginning of a mission is precisely the same, about seven seconds of scanning 360 sweeps until it all smooths out and runs beautifully from then on. My current system specs are as follows:

CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz LGA 1155 95W Quad-Core, OC’d to 3.8GHz
CPU Fan: Arctic Super Cooler
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 16gb (4 x 4gb) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
Mobo: ASUS Sabertooth P67
Hard Drives: 2 Western Digital 640 GB Caviar Black SATA
Opti Drive: LG 22X DVD+/RW Dual Layer SATA Rewrite
Video Cards: Two EVGA GeForce GTX 970 04G-P4-3975-KR 4gb cards with HB SLI bridge
PS: Corsair HX 850 Watt
OS: Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
LG 27" flat screen LCD monitor, 1920 x 1080 native resolution
Four large case fans, plus the PS, CPU, mobo, and card fans
Saitek AV8R joystick
Saitek Pro Flight rudder pedals
Track IR4 camera with latest IR5 software

Hardly cutting edge by any means but still a good solid system.

As reference here is a screenshot of the Belfort mod in its current state with a full flight of Nieups in the sky above it:

(right-click on image and open in new window to view it full size)
[Linked Image]

So what has changed in the most recent version of our beloved sim that allows us to have all this density and still be able to fly about smoothly - or am I just getting lucky here? Inquiring minds want to know.

Cheers!

Lou

.

Attached Files WOFF_UE_Belfort_mod_016.jpg

[Linked Image]

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_________________________________________________________________________

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#4402874 - 02/01/18 03:44 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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That's pretty interesting. Personally, the limited of my technical skills in these matters is when, faced with an inexplicable glitch, I sacrifice the odd chicken to the computer god.

Can't wait to fly over Alsace again to see Belfort. I started a career in 3 Wing at Luxeuil last year and thoroughly enjoyed it. This mod would have really made it, though.

#4402875 - 02/01/18 03:58 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Steve;

I have not verified this yet but personally I am inclined to believe that trees are more of a culprit on FPS than buildings in general. I seem to hit FPS problems when I propagate a fair number of trees. What I don't understand is how OBD can produce dense forests in WOFF without FPS impact.

Just my two cents worth and I am willing to listen to anybody!


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
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#4402876 - 02/01/18 03:59 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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L'Etoile du Nord
.

Raine, it is quite awesome to fly above the city and be able to look down into actual streets with shops and such, even if I do say so myself, (and I do). But a chicken? I usually go directly to a llama in such situations.
I am hoping to have a beta of the mod available in the next couple of weeks for folks to try on their own systems. It will be for spring/summer of 1915 for testing purposes.

Robert, I agree with you about the trees, they seem to have more of on impact on performance than buildings do. I should add though that at this point I already have a couple of hundred trees in the mod.

.

#4402894 - 02/01/18 05:38 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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The big difference in FPS is quick combat vs Campaign mission. But Alsace region is less demanding on FPS because of less aircraft in air during combat mission overall. The Flanders region is more sensitive.
Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by JJJ65; 02/01/18 05:39 PM.
#4402897 - 02/01/18 05:47 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Lou;

Your several hundred trees is nothing in comparison to the trees that exist in the Izel village/Izel airfield/Filescamp&Filescamp extension airfields/Filescamp Farm. All of these facilities combined contain 650 trees. Each airfield holds approx 100 trees each and the Farm contains 300. Even at 300, the Farm looks rather sparse. I wish there was a way to provide the necessary historical look without the FPS impact.
LIke you, my facilities take about 7 10 10 seconds to load after which things become smooth. However, even though they are smooth on my system, I drop about 20 fps periodically as the views change and things get loaded. I will probably be cutting back on the trees at some point unfortunately. I hate to do it as it impacts the look and feel of the facility.

As I said in my earlier post, I wish the facilities would load as efficiently as the native forests in WOFF. I don't know how they are achieving it.

Best Regards;

Last edited by Robert_Wiggins; 02/01/18 07:41 PM.

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Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
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OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
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#4402905 - 02/01/18 06:39 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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.

Thanks Robert, I know your most recent completed mod is quite tree rich and it looks it, very nice and full, not sparse by any means IMHO. I wonder if the native trees in the landscape aren't a simpler version of the ones available in the "buildings" folder and that is why they load more efficiently.

Jara, I have been running campaign missions as I've gone along and the results are the same as in QC, no discernible difference in performance between the very plain stock Belfort and my mod. I do agree that the region is less demanding in terms of planes in the air, but it is much more demanding in terms of trees so I wonder how much overall difference there is.

#4402910 - 02/01/18 07:23 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: JJJ65]  
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Originally Posted by JJJ65
The big difference in FPS is quick combat vs Campaign mission. But Alsace region is less demanding on FPS because of less aircraft in air during combat mission overall. The Flanders region is more sensitive.
Just my 2 cents.


This is my thinking also.
The campaign, especially in a busy sector and/or active time period is a huge factor.

#4402922 - 02/01/18 07:58 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Yes, facility trees are pretty bad. Unfortunately I don't know why. Generally anything that uses alpha transparency (DXT3 or DXT5 texture) is much worse for FPS than solid objects (DXT1 texture), but trees seems to have unnecessarily big impact.

Generic forests are drawn with a very different approach and that's why they can be much more dense. CFS3 is still pretty bad at it though, I tried finding and remaking that code with a more modern approach, but without much success -- it is too time consuming to justify this work.

#4402946 - 02/01/18 10:03 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Ankor, thanks very much for your insight, it is appreciated.
By the way, what have you been up to recently. I haven't seen you around here for awhile?


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
Pwr Sup: OCZ, GameXStream,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4402962 - 02/01/18 11:25 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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AnKor, I had a hunch things were different with the trees in the forests, thanks for confirming that. Too bad you couldn't come up with a code work-around.

#4403006 - 02/02/18 07:59 AM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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The trees around airfields use their own individual textures for each tree. The Forest trees textures are provided on a texture "sheet" that also includes the majority of the standard buildings/roofs/bushes etc all on one texture.

There are 4 of these texture sheets used in game, one for each season.

There are separate tree textures for the airfields/facilities trees, again 4 different textures, per tree, 1 for each season. These individual tree textures are larger in size than the stock forest tree textures are.

Could you guys not speckle your airfield mods with the forest tree types as opposed to the other ones? Performance would be a lot better, and the visual impact of the trees would be negligible. I haven't looked into if this is feasible or not. There has to be a way that the game engine knows where to place a forest tree in a specific place or not.

Regards!


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#4403012 - 02/02/18 09:52 AM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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AnKor Offline
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4L0M,
I don't think there is a way to make forest trees appear at specific location in facilities.
As I understand forest trees are randomly placed and controlled by mask textures which are tied to terrain textures.
However I don't know much.

Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
By the way, what have you been up to recently. I haven't seen you around here for awhile?

I work for something new for WOTR, but it is a secret for now smile

#4403043 - 02/02/18 03:05 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: AnKor]  
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Originally Posted by AnKor
4L0M,
I don't think there is a way to make forest trees appear at specific location in facilities.
As I understand forest trees are randomly placed and controlled by mask textures which are tied to terrain textures.
However I don't know much.

Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
By the way, what have you been up to recently. I haven't seen you around here for awhile?

I work for something new for WOTR, but it is a secret for now smile


thumbsup


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
Pwr Sup: OCZ, GameXStream,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4403094 - 02/02/18 07:37 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: AnKor]  
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Originally Posted by AnKor
4L0M,
I don't think there is a way to make forest trees appear at specific location in facilities.
As I understand forest trees are randomly placed and controlled by mask textures which are tied to terrain textures.
However I don't know much.

Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
By the way, what have you been up to recently. I haven't seen you around here for awhile?

I work for something new for WOTR, but it is a secret for now smile


Lets hope not only for WW2 but also ported to WoFF

#4403111 - 02/02/18 09:15 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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.

AnKor, whatever you're working on for WOTR will be spectacular, of that I've no doubt. And as Dutch pointed out, perhaps you will bring it over into WOFF, yes? smile2

4L0M, thanks for the info. Wish there was a way to use the landscape trees rather than the building trees.

.

#4403192 - 02/03/18 02:08 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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I've been getting along fine with it but newer guys who don't know how to tweak their system settings might struggle. The FPS hit is there but I'm only dropping to 25-30 at worst with some stutter approaching concentrations of airfields with 200 or so planes on the mission.


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#4403202 - 02/03/18 03:08 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Ace, I'm not newer but definitely dumber. Any tweaking advice would be gratefully accepted.

#4403209 - 02/03/18 03:48 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Originally Posted by RAF_Louvert
AnKor, whatever you're working on for WOTR will be spectacular, of that I've no doubt. And as Dutch pointed out, perhaps you will bring it over into WOFF, yes? smile2

I hope it will smile
And yes, will likely be in WOFF as well.

#4403214 - 02/03/18 04:07 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
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Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4403218 - 02/03/18 04:21 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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You folks were making my head hurt with the technical talk but knowing AnKor is involved with a super secret, need to know only addition is better than 2 BC powders!


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#4403246 - 02/03/18 09:26 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: Raine]  
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Originally Posted by Raine
Ace, I'm not newer but definitely dumber. Any tweaking advice would be gratefully accepted.


I'm just using the recommended settings posted here (In a thread somewhere, I just googled "WoFF performance tweaks") for WoFF and nVidia control panel.


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#4403525 - 02/05/18 11:35 AM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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I've just got an idea, but I'm really busy and don't have time to test it.

As I mentioned the performance hit most likely comes from DXT3/5 textures which support semi-transparency.
However my shaders use dithering instead of transparency to render trees. This dithering is still based on alpha values from textures, so without alpha trees will look ugly, but I can probably do something about it.
Now, what I'd like to test.
What if DXT3/5 textures for trees are changed to DXT1 with on/off alpha or even solid ones?
Would it improve the performance?

I don't have time to test it, but it is not too difficult if you know what you are doing smile

You need to find **your WOFF folder**\WOFFScenery\Textures\Sum Spring Tex\ sub-folder. There are 10 textures like Deciduous*.dds and 4 textures like Coniferous*.dds. These are DXT3.
Make a backup copy of them and store it somewhere outside WOFF folder.

Then use your favorite image editor which supports DDS and resave them as DXT1 (preferably with mipmaps). Or, you can just take any solid DXT1 texture 256x256 (or any size) and use it instead of these existing textures. It can be just solid black, we are not testing image quality smile

Then test it on a tree-heavy airfield. Obviously you must select spring or summer season for these updated textures to show up.

If it indeed improves the performance I can probably update my shaders to keep using the alpha for these textures, while CFS3 engine will be tricked to believe that they are solid and thus will use faster rendering.

#4403529 - 02/05/18 12:21 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Thanks for that Ankor. I may just have a look into that and report back.


(System_Specs)
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Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
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OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
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#4403564 - 02/05/18 03:59 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Ankor;

I did as you suggested but used an existing mod.

I copied the WOFFScenery\Textures\Sum Spring Tex\ sub-folder into my mod and then used DXTBmp to save it as a DXT1 with alpha.
I then tested it on two of my modded airfields. Roucourt and Izel/Filescamp. Both have heavy tree coverage. The Filescamp Farm is by far the most populated with trees.

The test was with QC in Summer.

My findings were that there was no improvement.

Should I try anything else?


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
Pwr Sup: OCZ, GameXStream,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4403571 - 02/05/18 04:40 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Thanks. Maybe there is indeed no effect. It was just a guess.

However I'm not sure I understood this part:
Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
I copied the WOFFScenery\Textures\Sum Spring Tex\ sub-folder into my mod and then used DXTBmp to save it as a DXT1 with alpha.

Are you sure your modified textures were actually picked up by WOFF?
Maybe you can paint some markings on them to be sure.

CFS3 will load textures from any sub-folder, but if there are two textures with the same name I don't know which one will be loaded.
When WOFF starts simulation it copies tree textures specific for current season from WOFFScenery\Textures into OBDWW1 Over Flanders Fields\assets\WW1Texture. The latter is what actually used by cfs3.

But maybe performance drop is not related to textures, maybe it is just the number of facility objects which is too big for cfs3, or maybe it is something else.

#4403586 - 02/05/18 05:35 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Ankor;

I can confirm that the .dds textures in "OBDWW1 Over Flanders Fields\assets\WW1Texture" are the correctly modified ones (DXT1 with alpha).

Let me explain the part you are not sure you understand.:
I created a mod that contains the "WOFFScenery\Textures\Sum Spring Tex\" and when implemented, it overrides/replaces the stock trees .dds files with my modified ones. When I swap the JSGME mod out, I am back to stock .dds textures.


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
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Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
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CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4403592 - 02/05/18 06:05 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
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Russia
I see. Somehow I didn't figure out you can simply use JSGME to mod WOFFScenery files. I thought you were speaking about something more elaborate smile

Well, it is something else then.

Thanks for testing!

#4403638 - 02/05/18 09:34 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,350
Robert_Wiggins Offline
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Robert_Wiggins  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,350
Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
Ankor, I spent a little more time on the mod and reduced the texture size from 256 x 256 to 128 x 128 and there was no performance difference in FPS. It was identical. It was a surprise to me, as I thought I might see some improvement.

Just thought you might like to know, and thanks for your contribution here.

Best Regards;


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
Pwr Sup: OCZ, GameXStream,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
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#4403758 - 02/06/18 01:20 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,932
MajorMagee Offline
Member
MajorMagee  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,932
Dayton, OH
I believe that the big difference between the normal trees and the ones used as objects around the airfields is the number of polys that are used to make them. It's like having a small forest of trees standing all in one place with a lot of intersecting surfaces needing z sorting and transparency anti-aliasing.


Service To The Line,
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On Time

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#4403852 - 02/06/18 06:20 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 135
4L0M Offline
Member
4L0M  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 135
Weymouth, UK
Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
Ankor, I spent a little more time on the mod and reduced the texture size from 256 x 256 to 128 x 128 and there was no performance difference in FPS. It was identical. It was a surprise to me, as I thought I might see some improvement.

Just thought you might like to know, and thanks for your contribution here.

Best Regards;


The problem lies with the game engine being incredibly old, inefficient and bursting at the seams. You could make the textures 2048x2048 and I doubt you would see any difference in fps on any graphics card made in the last 10 years as long as the card has more than 2GB of Vram.

The textures in this game compared to anything modern are absolutely miniscule in comparison. The problem you are facing with your trees etc around airfields are the way the the game engine calls the objects, this is where the bottleneck arises.

Modern game engines use things like Speedtree for vegetation or use Tesselation for better efficiency at rendering of the environment, but the CFS3 engine is just too old and long in the tooth I'm afraid.


I7 4770k@4.6ghz WC H80i
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#4403854 - 02/06/18 06:24 PM Re: A question for the devs and other computer gurus here [Re: RAF_Louvert]  
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,350
Robert_Wiggins Offline
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Robert_Wiggins  Offline
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Hotshot

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,350
Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
You may very well be spot on with your assessment 4L, unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge to comment.


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
Pwr Sup: OCZ, GameXStream,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

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