Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#4396593 - 12/24/17 11:56 AM Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now?  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 616
JimBobb Offline
Member
JimBobb  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 616
CFS is pretty old now, OBD must have some buck saved from woff..... wouldn't the source code help in making in WOTR ? Also then OBD could put their game on steam/gog to reach bigger audience.

#4396607 - 12/24/17 02:25 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,704
Rick_Rawlings Offline
Senior Member
Rick_Rawlings  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,704
Unfortunately, I don't believe OBD has that many buck saved...the WWI air war is a niche market in a steadily shrinking sim genre...


The older I get, the more I realize I don't need to be Han, Luke or Leia. I'm just happy to be rebel scum...
#4396793 - 12/26/17 03:38 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,433
Hellshade Offline
Hellshade
Hellshade  Offline
Hellshade
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,433
Florida
If they coulda...they woulda.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4396810 - 12/26/17 11:37 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: Rick_Rawlings]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 616
JimBobb Offline
Member
JimBobb  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Rick_Rawlings
Unfortunately, I don't believe OBD has that many buck saved...the WWI air war is a niche market in a steadily shrinking sim genre...


Microsoft has given away for free code to one of their games (alliegance) to a group of fans and it's even free on steam and they are actively developing it.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/700480/Microsoft_Allegiance/



Maybe they wouldn't want a high price for the CFS code......

#4396827 - 12/26/17 02:03 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,827
Panama Red Offline
Member
Panama Red  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,827
Irmo, SC, USA
Are these fans charging for the game or just making mods for it for free ???

There is a big difference between fans prolonging a game for free and a business profiting from a game like OBD.


CPU = i9 11900K
GPU = RTX 3080 Ti
Monitor = ASUS ROG Swift PG32UQX 2160p G-sync
#4396860 - 12/26/17 06:03 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 418
AnKor Offline
Member
AnKor  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 418
Russia
I'm sure OBD tried this already.

Actually I wonder who owns CFS3 sources now.
Microsoft no longer sells it and all (?) support sites has been closed already.
ACES Studio which actually developed the game has been closed in 2009. Microsoft Games Studio seem to be all about XBox without any mention of FS series.
FSX was licensed to Dovetail Games and they released it on Steam. They also developed a new title called Flight Sim World, but I don't know if it is related to FSX technology in any way.
The "professional" version of FSX has been sold to Lockheed Martin and evolved into Prepar3D. It seems some people from ACES Studio were hired to continue working on it.

Now, I don't know where CFS series belongs in all this. It is obviously a spin off of Flight Simulator, but are they related from licensing point of view?

However, let's be honest to ourselves: is there any real value in CFS3 engine?
WOFF has custom front-end, campaign engine, 3D assets, AI and heavily modified DX9 renderer (which unfortunately still runs on top of very weak DX8 one). What remains? Flight physics and the map of Europe?
I understand why OBD uses CFS3 -- because they know how to do it, but sometimes it feels like it would make more sense to scratch it and make a new game with UE4 or Unity.

#4396861 - 12/26/17 06:06 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: AnKor]  
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 945
kksnowbear Offline
Member
kksnowbear  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 945
Originally Posted by AnKor
However, let's be honest to ourselves: is there any real value in CFS3 engine?
WOFF has custom front-end, campaign engine, 3D assets, AI and heavily modified DX9 renderer (which unfortunately still runs on top of very weak DX8 one). What remains? Flight physics and the map of Europe?
I understand why OBD uses CFS3 -- because they know how to do it, but sometimes it feels like it would make more sense to scratch it and make a new game with UE4 or Unity.


This. And high time, IMHO.

#4396867 - 12/26/17 06:39 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,993
Robert_Wiggins Offline
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Robert_Wiggins  Offline
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Hotshot

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,993
Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
AnKor /Kksnowbear

Some good points there, but let's recognize that a new engine would invoke another large learning curve and development from scratch. No opportunity to use what has already been developed on CFS3 engine. It also means that new features in WOTR could not be brought back over to WOFF.
Now also consider how small the OBD team is and the limited funding in their purse.

Do you think they could practically consider going to a new platform considering all this?

Personally I don't think so, although I would certainly love to see them able to undertake it.

Best Regards and Seasons Greetings


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
PSU: Ultra X3,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4396874 - 12/26/17 07:02 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 945
kksnowbear Offline
Member
kksnowbear  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 945
RJW, your point is also well taken, of course. However, I consider a move - at some point - as inevitable.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

#4396883 - 12/26/17 07:53 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: kksnowbear]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,433
Hellshade Offline
Hellshade
Hellshade  Offline
Hellshade
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,433
Florida
Originally Posted by kksnowbear
RJW, your point is also well taken, of course. However, I consider a move - at some point - as inevitable.

Of course, that's just my opinion.


My opinion is that it isn't inevitable at all, though I wish that it was.

Existing financial resources and the potential return on investment (ROI) are two huge factors that can stop any company from moving to a next generation platform, no matter how much they wish they could. If they don't have or can't get the cash, it doesn't happen. If the ROI is too low to cover their expenses, including time, it doesn't happen.

Do I wish that someday they can move to a new platform? Sure, absolutely I do. Do I think it's inevitable? My opinion is that not only is it not inevitable, it's also unlikely...but at least it is still possible. New engines aren't cheap and the time to learn them and then reprogram the "world" becomes a lot of expensive man-hours that all have to somehow be paid for by the end product sales. WWI flight sims are simply not a hot seller right now and haven't been for quite a few years. The 90s are gone, though hopefully someday the WWI flight sim "mania" that existed back then will someday make a return. Until that day happens though, a diminishing market simply isn't the logical place to invest heavily. That's why WWI sim makers have either gone out of business or branched out into other areas (WWII) in order to remain financially viable. It just can't be done in the WWI theater on it's own anymore.

That's the sad truth of our times. The technology exists to make a state of the art x64, DX12 WWI sim that would melt our minds. (Pardon the poetic license) It's just that that isn't what the market place is calling for these days. MMOs, MOBAs, FPS and anything console is where most of the demand is at. frown
"


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4396908 - 12/26/17 10:06 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,532
DukeIronHand Offline
Hotshot
DukeIronHand  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,532
High over the Front
Originally Posted by JimBobb
Originally Posted by Rick_Rawlings
Unfortunately, I don't believe OBD has that many buck saved...the WWI air war is a niche market in a steadily shrinking sim genre...


Microsoft has given away for free code to one of their games (alliegance) to a group of fans and it's even free on steam and they are actively developing it.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/700480/Microsoft_Allegiance/



Maybe they wouldn't want a high price for the CFS code......


Wow. MS gave something away? Must say I am quite surprised.

#4396919 - 12/26/17 11:26 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: Hellshade]  
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 945
kksnowbear Offline
Member
kksnowbear  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 945
Originally Posted by Hellshade
My opinion is that it isn't inevitable at all, though I wish that it was.


I stand corrected. What I should have actually said was that if we assume that this (product line) is to continue, then I see a change as inevitable.

While I am sure some here will disagree, I just don't believe the product will generate sufficient interest much longer unless it is updated - somehow - to take advantage of newer technologies.

The ROI and all that - sure, I agree. Unfortunately, it isn't the consumer's problem to solve. The "development cost" of a product has to be recovered, and it's typically done by way of higher prices upon initial introduction. And there would need to be "enough gas in the tank" to keep things rolling along, long enough for a new product to be put together and start making money. We can all hope that there would be enough support to allow OBD to keep going long enough to at least produce a beta...I can't help but wonder whether the earliest OFF sales actually were profit, but I'd guess not. Hate to say it, but the early - and free - versions of OFF (P1, 2) are what garnered enough interest to generate follow-up sales in later products (P3, WOFF...). Seems plausible to me that this might have to be repeated, to pave the way for the (desperately needed) technology update.

Again, just my own perspective.

#4396931 - 12/27/17 01:08 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: kksnowbear]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,433
Hellshade Offline
Hellshade
Hellshade  Offline
Hellshade
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,433
Florida
Originally Posted by kksnowbear


While I am sure some here will disagree, I just don't believe the product will generate sufficient interest much longer unless it is updated - somehow - to take advantage of newer technologies.



Well hopefully WOTR puts some $$$ in OBDs piggy bank and that gives them some more options.

I saw that Team Fusion Simulations (TFS) eventually secured the rights to Cliffs of Dover from 1C and over the course of several years were finally able to produce 4.5, the "Blitz" version which is now available on Steam. With some irony, before Cliffs of Dover was released, I asked Pol if it would be possible to jump the sim to that engine as a mod. It looks like TFS essentially followed that route, although they kept it in the WWII genre. I will say after all the work that TFS put into it, it certainly is a beautiful looking sim. I wonder if they want to sub-let the rights out for a WWI mod now to increase the number of folks who might be interested in their sim...both WWII and WWI. Hmm... LOL

Last edited by Hellshade; 12/27/17 03:59 AM.

Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4396966 - 12/27/17 08:16 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: Hellshade]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 616
JimBobb Offline
Member
JimBobb  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Hellshade
[quote=kksnowbear]


I saw that Team Fusion Simulations (TFS) eventually secured the rights to Cliffs of Dover from 1C and over the course of several years were finally able to produce 4.5, the "Blitz" version which is now available on Steam. With some irony, before Cliffs of Dover was released, I asked Pol if it would be possible to jump the sim to that engine as a mod. It looks like TFS essentially followed that route, although they kept it in the WWII genre. I will say after all the work that TFS put into it, it certainly is a beautiful looking sim. I wonder if they want to sub-let the rights out for a WWI mod now to increase the number of folks who might be interested in their sim...both WWII and WWI. Hmm... LOL


Would be interesting if OBD could do the same, CFS is ww2 and they are making now WOTR which is WW2 also..... maybe MS could allow them to work on the base game and release CFS 3 - WOTR,,,, a deal with MS could secure them financials.......

#4396970 - 12/27/17 10:28 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 418
AnKor Offline
Member
AnKor  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 418
Russia
Such deal would make sense.
With the access to source code I could convert the rendering engine even to DX12 and throw away its crappiest DX8 parts. I've been "secretly" working on this conversion for quite some time now and had some success, but eventually came to conclusion that it doesn't make sense since the underlying code is from 2002 and it wasn't good even back then.

However I don't believe it is possible.

#4396973 - 12/27/17 11:41 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: AnKor]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,910
dutch Offline
Member
dutch  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,910
EURO-zone
Originally Posted by AnKor
Such deal would make sense.
With the access to source code I could convert the rendering engine even to DX12 and throw away its crappiest DX8 parts. I've been "secretly" working on this conversion for quite some time now and had some success, but eventually came to conclusion that it doesn't make sense since the underlying code is from 2002 and it wasn't good even back then.

However I don't believe it is possible.

So Woff is stil an DirectX8 game only some aspects have been swaped to DirectX9.

Ankor would like to know you opinion, about directX conversion pure for the VR implementation? I know some did try it, but were limited to the Woff DirectX engine.

#4396982 - 12/27/17 12:10 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 418
AnKor Offline
Member
AnKor  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 418
Russia
I've seen threads about VR in this forum, but I don't have time to look into it. As far as I understand VR requires DX11 to work. It also needs stable high FPS and I don't think CFS3 can reliably produce high FPS.

#4396991 - 12/27/17 12:46 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: AnKor]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,433
Hellshade Offline
Hellshade
Hellshade  Offline
Hellshade
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,433
Florida
Originally Posted by AnKor
Such deal would make sense.
With the access to source code I could convert the rendering engine even to DX12 and throw away its crappiest DX8 parts. I've been "secretly" working on this conversion for quite some time now and had some success, but eventually came to conclusion that it doesn't make sense since the underlying code is from 2002 and it wasn't good even back then.

However I don't believe it is possible.


If that were possible, it would be nice but I think being limited to 32 bit with a single core thread would create bottlenecks to performance. Certainly they have done amazing things with the current engine and we shall have to wait and see what more they have managed to do with WOTR. Just imagine what more they could do if their considerable talents were unrestrained by budget and licensing issues. Their genius and passion deserve better rewards. /sigh

Last edited by Hellshade; 12/27/17 12:47 PM.

Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4397093 - 12/27/17 11:11 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 616
JimBobb Offline
Member
JimBobb  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 616
Quote
would be nice but I think being limited to 32 bit with a single core thread would create bottlenecks to performance


Maybe having code would allow to make it 64bit and multiple cores,,,, like they did with having new windows compatibility


Moderated by  Polovski 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
CD WOFF
by Britisheh. 03/28/24 08:05 PM
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0