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#4396593 - 12/24/17 11:56 AM Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now?  
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JimBobb Offline
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CFS is pretty old now, OBD must have some buck saved from woff..... wouldn't the source code help in making in WOTR ? Also then OBD could put their game on steam/gog to reach bigger audience.

#4396607 - 12/24/17 02:25 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Unfortunately, I don't believe OBD has that many buck saved...the WWI air war is a niche market in a steadily shrinking sim genre...

#4396793 - 12/26/17 03:38 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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#4396810 - 12/26/17 11:37 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: Rick_Rawlings]  
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Originally Posted by Rick_Rawlings
Unfortunately, I don't believe OBD has that many buck saved...the WWI air war is a niche market in a steadily shrinking sim genre...


Microsoft has given away for free code to one of their games (alliegance) to a group of fans and it's even free on steam and they are actively developing it.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/700480/Microsoft_Allegiance/



Maybe they wouldn't want a high price for the CFS code......

#4396827 - 12/26/17 02:03 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Are these fans charging for the game or just making mods for it for free ???

There is a big difference between fans prolonging a game for free and a business profiting from a game like OBD.

#4396860 - 12/26/17 06:03 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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I'm sure OBD tried this already.

Actually I wonder who owns CFS3 sources now.
Microsoft no longer sells it and all (?) support sites has been closed already.
ACES Studio which actually developed the game has been closed in 2009. Microsoft Games Studio seem to be all about XBox without any mention of FS series.
FSX was licensed to Dovetail Games and they released it on Steam. They also developed a new title called Flight Sim World, but I don't know if it is related to FSX technology in any way.
The "professional" version of FSX has been sold to Lockheed Martin and evolved into Prepar3D. It seems some people from ACES Studio were hired to continue working on it.

Now, I don't know where CFS series belongs in all this. It is obviously a spin off of Flight Simulator, but are they related from licensing point of view?

However, let's be honest to ourselves: is there any real value in CFS3 engine?
WOFF has custom front-end, campaign engine, 3D assets, AI and heavily modified DX9 renderer (which unfortunately still runs on top of very weak DX8 one). What remains? Flight physics and the map of Europe?
I understand why OBD uses CFS3 -- because they know how to do it, but sometimes it feels like it would make more sense to scratch it and make a new game with UE4 or Unity.

#4396861 - 12/26/17 06:06 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: AnKor]  
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Originally Posted by AnKor
However, let's be honest to ourselves: is there any real value in CFS3 engine?
WOFF has custom front-end, campaign engine, 3D assets, AI and heavily modified DX9 renderer (which unfortunately still runs on top of very weak DX8 one). What remains? Flight physics and the map of Europe?
I understand why OBD uses CFS3 -- because they know how to do it, but sometimes it feels like it would make more sense to scratch it and make a new game with UE4 or Unity.


This. And high time, IMHO.

#4396867 - 12/26/17 06:39 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Some good points there, but let's recognize that a new engine would invoke another large learning curve and development from scratch. No opportunity to use what has already been developed on CFS3 engine. It also means that new features in WOTR could not be brought back over to WOFF.
Now also consider how small the OBD team is and the limited funding in their purse.

Do you think they could practically consider going to a new platform considering all this?

Personally I don't think so, although I would certainly love to see them able to undertake it.

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#4396874 - 12/26/17 07:02 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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RJW, your point is also well taken, of course. However, I consider a move - at some point - as inevitable.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

#4396883 - 12/26/17 07:53 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear
RJW, your point is also well taken, of course. However, I consider a move - at some point - as inevitable.

Of course, that's just my opinion.


My opinion is that it isn't inevitable at all, though I wish that it was.

Existing financial resources and the potential return on investment (ROI) are two huge factors that can stop any company from moving to a next generation platform, no matter how much they wish they could. If they don't have or can't get the cash, it doesn't happen. If the ROI is too low to cover their expenses, including time, it doesn't happen.

Do I wish that someday they can move to a new platform? Sure, absolutely I do. Do I think it's inevitable? My opinion is that not only is it not inevitable, it's also unlikely...but at least it is still possible. New engines aren't cheap and the time to learn them and then reprogram the "world" becomes a lot of expensive man-hours that all have to somehow be paid for by the end product sales. WWI flight sims are simply not a hot seller right now and haven't been for quite a few years. The 90s are gone, though hopefully someday the WWI flight sim "mania" that existed back then will someday make a return. Until that day happens though, a diminishing market simply isn't the logical place to invest heavily. That's why WWI sim makers have either gone out of business or branched out into other areas (WWII) in order to remain financially viable. It just can't be done in the WWI theater on it's own anymore.

That's the sad truth of our times. The technology exists to make a state of the art x64, DX12 WWI sim that would melt our minds. (Pardon the poetic license) It's just that that isn't what the market place is calling for these days. MMOs, MOBAs, FPS and anything console is where most of the demand is at. frown
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#4396908 - 12/26/17 10:06 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Originally Posted by JimBobb
Originally Posted by Rick_Rawlings
Unfortunately, I don't believe OBD has that many buck saved...the WWI air war is a niche market in a steadily shrinking sim genre...


Microsoft has given away for free code to one of their games (alliegance) to a group of fans and it's even free on steam and they are actively developing it.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/700480/Microsoft_Allegiance/



Maybe they wouldn't want a high price for the CFS code......


Wow. MS gave something away? Must say I am quite surprised.

#4396919 - 12/26/17 11:26 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Originally Posted by Hellshade
My opinion is that it isn't inevitable at all, though I wish that it was.


I stand corrected. What I should have actually said was that if we assume that this (product line) is to continue, then I see a change as inevitable.

While I am sure some here will disagree, I just don't believe the product will generate sufficient interest much longer unless it is updated - somehow - to take advantage of newer technologies.

The ROI and all that - sure, I agree. Unfortunately, it isn't the consumer's problem to solve. The "development cost" of a product has to be recovered, and it's typically done by way of higher prices upon initial introduction. And there would need to be "enough gas in the tank" to keep things rolling along, long enough for a new product to be put together and start making money. We can all hope that there would be enough support to allow OBD to keep going long enough to at least produce a beta...I can't help but wonder whether the earliest OFF sales actually were profit, but I'd guess not. Hate to say it, but the early - and free - versions of OFF (P1, 2) are what garnered enough interest to generate follow-up sales in later products (P3, WOFF...). Seems plausible to me that this might have to be repeated, to pave the way for the (desperately needed) technology update.

Again, just my own perspective.

#4396931 - 12/27/17 01:08 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Originally Posted by kksnowbear


While I am sure some here will disagree, I just don't believe the product will generate sufficient interest much longer unless it is updated - somehow - to take advantage of newer technologies.



Well hopefully WOTR puts some $$$ in OBDs piggy bank and that gives them some more options.

I saw that Team Fusion Simulations (TFS) eventually secured the rights to Cliffs of Dover from 1C and over the course of several years were finally able to produce 4.5, the "Blitz" version which is now available on Steam. With some irony, before Cliffs of Dover was released, I asked Pol if it would be possible to jump the sim to that engine as a mod. It looks like TFS essentially followed that route, although they kept it in the WWII genre. I will say after all the work that TFS put into it, it certainly is a beautiful looking sim. I wonder if they want to sub-let the rights out for a WWI mod now to increase the number of folks who might be interested in their sim...both WWII and WWI. Hmm... LOL

Last edited by Hellshade; 12/27/17 03:59 AM.

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#4396966 - 12/27/17 08:16 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Originally Posted by Hellshade
[quote=kksnowbear]


I saw that Team Fusion Simulations (TFS) eventually secured the rights to Cliffs of Dover from 1C and over the course of several years were finally able to produce 4.5, the "Blitz" version which is now available on Steam. With some irony, before Cliffs of Dover was released, I asked Pol if it would be possible to jump the sim to that engine as a mod. It looks like TFS essentially followed that route, although they kept it in the WWII genre. I will say after all the work that TFS put into it, it certainly is a beautiful looking sim. I wonder if they want to sub-let the rights out for a WWI mod now to increase the number of folks who might be interested in their sim...both WWII and WWI. Hmm... LOL


Would be interesting if OBD could do the same, CFS is ww2 and they are making now WOTR which is WW2 also..... maybe MS could allow them to work on the base game and release CFS 3 - WOTR,,,, a deal with MS could secure them financials.......

#4396970 - 12/27/17 10:28 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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Such deal would make sense.
With the access to source code I could convert the rendering engine even to DX12 and throw away its crappiest DX8 parts. I've been "secretly" working on this conversion for quite some time now and had some success, but eventually came to conclusion that it doesn't make sense since the underlying code is from 2002 and it wasn't good even back then.

However I don't believe it is possible.

#4396973 - 12/27/17 11:41 AM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: AnKor]  
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Originally Posted by AnKor
Such deal would make sense.
With the access to source code I could convert the rendering engine even to DX12 and throw away its crappiest DX8 parts. I've been "secretly" working on this conversion for quite some time now and had some success, but eventually came to conclusion that it doesn't make sense since the underlying code is from 2002 and it wasn't good even back then.

However I don't believe it is possible.

So Woff is stil an DirectX8 game only some aspects have been swaped to DirectX9.

Ankor would like to know you opinion, about directX conversion pure for the VR implementation? I know some did try it, but were limited to the Woff DirectX engine.

#4396982 - 12/27/17 12:10 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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I've seen threads about VR in this forum, but I don't have time to look into it. As far as I understand VR requires DX11 to work. It also needs stable high FPS and I don't think CFS3 can reliably produce high FPS.

#4396991 - 12/27/17 12:46 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: AnKor]  
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Originally Posted by AnKor
Such deal would make sense.
With the access to source code I could convert the rendering engine even to DX12 and throw away its crappiest DX8 parts. I've been "secretly" working on this conversion for quite some time now and had some success, but eventually came to conclusion that it doesn't make sense since the underlying code is from 2002 and it wasn't good even back then.

However I don't believe it is possible.


If that were possible, it would be nice but I think being limited to 32 bit with a single core thread would create bottlenecks to performance. Certainly they have done amazing things with the current engine and we shall have to wait and see what more they have managed to do with WOTR. Just imagine what more they could do if their considerable talents were unrestrained by budget and licensing issues. Their genius and passion deserve better rewards. /sigh

Last edited by Hellshade; 12/27/17 12:47 PM.

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#4397093 - 12/27/17 11:11 PM Re: Can OBD purchase the source code from Microsoft now? [Re: JimBobb]  
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would be nice but I think being limited to 32 bit with a single core thread would create bottlenecks to performance


Maybe having code would allow to make it 64bit and multiple cores,,,, like they did with having new windows compatibility


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