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#4395059 - 12/15/17 10:19 PM New PC for simming (wishful thinking)  
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So I have been flight simming for the last 10 years on laptops. At times it has been very disappointing. My current laptop has kept me pretty happy, especially in our old house where I had to keep the laptop stowed away and could only set it up on the coffee table when i wanted to fly something. However, in the house we're in now, I have my own desk set up for simming. I've moved up from a Saitek AV8R to a CH HOTAS with rudder pedals. Recently I've been daydreaming about a desktop PC instead of a laptop. There's the obvious performance improvements plus a bigger screen.

The sims I would be using this for would be P3D (or maybe FSW at some point), IL-2 BoX, Falcon BMS, and maybe back to DCS/F/A-18 at some point.

Not only do I need some advice on which hardware I should look for, but also some pointers to where to get the best deals, since I don't shop for this kind of stuff very often. Let's just imagine that my budget is around $1500. A little more is OK. Less would be good too, as that makes it an easier sell to my wife.

Would something like this get the job done?
https://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Battlebox-2017-Essential-Core

Or would I need something more like this?
https://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/VR-Ready-Deal-GTX-1070-Ti


Sager NP8671 17.3" Notebook, i74720HQ (3.6GHz), GTX 970M (3.0GB), 8GB DDR3 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HD, TrackIR 4, CH HOTAS and rudder pedals
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4395071 - 12/16/17 12:22 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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In my non-expert opinion:

The first one would play just about anything at maximum or near maximum graphics settings on a 1920x1080p monitor. Overall, the gaming performance of this one is similar to my PC. My PC plays everything I want at 2560x1440p (but, some games put more stress on a PC).

The second one would play just about anything at maximum or near maximum graphics settings on a 2560x1440p (2K) monitor.

In general, the GPU is most important for gaming -- but a 1070 Ti is strong enough for anything for most folks. The 1060 6GB is the minimum for serious gaming -- but it works well -- so its not a true minimum -- its truly adequate. I like AMD cards, but they are overpriced now due to cryptocurrency mining.

The CPU definitely takes second place -- but, Intel 4 core CPUs running above 3.5 GHz base frequency should handle most everything (as will 4 core AMD Ryzen CPUs running above 3.5GHz base).

Memory is typically not important to FPS (changes FPS 1 or 2 percent) -- but get 16GB of the correct memory for your CPU. AMD Ryzen actually runs a bit faster with memory speeds at 2.6GHz or better -- that may not show up in a significant/visible FPS boost however.

An SSD for the operating system speeds up everyday performance noticeably (but not game FPS). Games can go on the hard drive. Everything else is just for show -- assuming you have the correct size power supply and a nice (to your eye) case.

Just "rules of thumb" I use. Other folks may have better or different "rules" smile

Hope you wind up with a fun setup.


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#4395073 - 12/16/17 12:37 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Nice builds!

Firstly, you can't go wrong with an 8600K or an 8700K. However, I doubt a single radiator setup will do those CPUs justice. You'll want a dual-fan rad setup like the Corsair H110i or triple-fan rad if the case allows, or an air cooler setup like the Noctua NH-D15. I personally prefer air coolers as these are simpler and I don't have to worry about leaks or pump failure.

16GB RAM is always a good idea and the better the GPU, the better the performance.... I would ask about the brand name for the PSU.... this powers your entire system so you don't want to skimp on that! I would personally recommend building your own PC that way you can fine-tune the parts to your budget and preferences... for instance, I'm not much of a fan of those case options. I like airflow, and lots of it!! I currently use a Corsair Carbide 500R and so far I've not found a replacement case for it.

You also might want to consider a bigger SSD for your OS drive.... 120GB might be too small once you get your OS and programs in. Remember that SSD performance goes down the closer you get to full capacity. I would recommend a 250GB SSD for OS and another 250GB (or bigger!!) SSD for select few games, then a short-stroked 1TB or 2TB HDD for the rest of the games, with the slower portion used for storage. Note that m.2 and PCI-E drive speeds are measurably faster than SATA drive speeds, but only if you sit by your PC with a stopwatch. If funds are tight, consider a SATA SSD drive. For example, a 250GB Samsung 850 EVO is £80-88 while the 256GB Samsung PM961 NVMe drive is £94-99. However, I wouldn't sweat this too much as it's easy to add storage later on smile

One thing you need to consider is what type of screen setup you want to go with. Single 1920x1080? Three-screen setup? 4K? Ultra-wide?


- Ice
#4395177 - 12/16/17 08:22 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by Allen
In my non-expert opinion:

The first one would play just about anything at maximum or near maximum graphics settings on a 1920x1080p monitor. Overall, the gaming performance of this one is similar to my PC. My PC plays everything I want at 2560x1440p (but, some games put more stress on a PC).

The second one would play just about anything at maximum or near maximum graphics settings on a 2560x1440p (2K) monitor.

In general, the GPU is most important for gaming -- but a 1070 Ti is strong enough for anything for most folks. The 1060 6GB is the minimum for serious gaming -- but it works well -- so its not a true minimum -- its truly adequate. I like AMD cards, but they are overpriced now due to cryptocurrency mining.

The CPU definitely takes second place -- but, Intel 4 core CPUs running above 3.5 GHz base frequency should handle most everything (as will 4 core AMD Ryzen CPUs running above 3.5GHz base).

Memory is typically not important to FPS (changes FPS 1 or 2 percent) -- but get 16GB of the correct memory for your CPU. AMD Ryzen actually runs a bit faster with memory speeds at 2.6GHz or better -- that may not show up in a significant/visible FPS boost however.

An SSD for the operating system speeds up everyday performance noticeably (but not game FPS). Games can go on the hard drive. Everything else is just for show -- assuming you have the correct size power supply and a nice (to your eye) case.

Just "rules of thumb" I use. Other folks may have better or different "rules" smile

Hope you wind up with a fun setup.


Thanks for the feedback! Good to know the first one would technically get the job done, as that price is very doable.

Originally Posted by - Ice
Nice builds!


Well, I didn't really build them. Just found them on the "post popular" section!


Originally Posted by - Ice

... I would personally recommend building your own PC that way you can fine-tune the parts to your budget and preferences...


When I hear "build your own", I think of two things:
1. I select and buy all the components myself. I'm totally not qualified to do that. However, I'm not opposed someone (like the fine folks here at SHQ) do that part for me biggrin But it would really have to include EVERYTHING. I don't know enough to do it myself.
2. I actually assemble the thing. How complicated is that? Is it mostly just installing stuff with screws and a screw driving and then plugging stuff in?

Given my experience and free time, I'd prefer to buy something already put together. But I'm not opposed to piecing it together if there are significant savings involved.


Originally Posted by - Ice
One thing you need to consider is what type of screen setup you want to go with. Single 1920x1080? Three-screen setup? 4K? Ultra-wide?


Probably just a single 1920x1080, maybe 24"...? I don't really know. I've been playing on a 17" 1920x1080 laptop, so I imagine anything is going to feel like a massive upgrade. Definitely one screen though.


Sager NP8671 17.3" Notebook, i74720HQ (3.6GHz), GTX 970M (3.0GB), 8GB DDR3 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HD, TrackIR 4, CH HOTAS and rudder pedals
#4395178 - 12/16/17 08:24 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Would you consider assembling your own PC? It is a little easier these days and you may potentially save some more money.

If you are only playing flight sims, which are typically not multi thread aware, I would go with an 8600K. CPU cooler wise get a decent one that is $35 or so, such as Cryorig's offerings. The Noctua coolers are very overkill unless you are pushing the voltage to the limit to squeeze every last MHZ out of the CPU. Assuming your case has good airflow, even a modes voltage bump to get the clocks up there will be more than enough while still being quiet.

I use this case:
http://www.fractal-design.com/home/product/cases/define-series/define-s

I paid around $65 shipped for it on sale, and it keeps my CPU very quiet and within safe operating temps even with the voltage upped with ambient temps in the 90s. I am using the stock AMD Wraith cooler as well. With Intel the stock cooler is not a viable option, so do look into something like Cryorig or similar.

How much space will you need? If you only plan to play a few games, I'd say a 500GB-750GB SSD would be good enough for a good while. Just skip the HDD if you don't need large amounts of storage.

#4395197 - 12/16/17 10:03 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Originally Posted by malibu43
Originally Posted by - Ice
... I would personally recommend building your own PC that way you can fine-tune the parts to your budget and preferences...


When I hear "build your own", I think of two things:
1. I select and buy all the components myself. I'm totally not qualified to do that. However, I'm not opposed someone (like the fine folks here at SHQ) do that part for me biggrin But it would really have to include EVERYTHING. I don't know enough to do it myself.
2. I actually assemble the thing. How complicated is that? Is it mostly just installing stuff with screws and a screw driving and then plugging stuff in?

Given my experience and free time, I'd prefer to buy something already put together. But I'm not opposed to piecing it together if there are significant savings involved.

1. Selecting components is actually the fun part!! Think about women shopping.... but this is OUR version of shopping!! Yay!!! biggrin

A few core considerations:
  • a. How important is CPU vs. GPU in your build? This will be determined by what games you want to play and may shift priorities slightly. Personally, I'd prioritize CPU a bit over GPU simply because I can upgrade a GPU 2-3x while keeping the same CPU.
  • b. i5 or i7? A bit of discussion here but suffice to say that if budget is tight and you're only using this for gaming, you'll want an i5 K-series CPU. If you have extra money at the end of the build, that's when I'd consider looking at the i7 K-series version.
  • c. RAM - 8GB is good, 16GB is better, tightest timings you can find, but no sense in buying the really exotic stuff. What is "exotic"? You'll know once you start looking at RAM prices.... it's the point where the price suddenly spikes up smile
  • d. Motherboard - basically, anything that can house your K-series CPU is good. Gigabyte, MSI, ASUS, they are all good brands. Broad advice is to get one with features you need or want such as NVMe support, number of USB outputs, etc. I would also suggest you get one with diagnostic LEDs so that it can tell you what's wrong with your setup in case the computer does not fully boot up.
  • e. PSU - 80 Plus Gold or higher, 600W or higher. I personally prefer 700-800W. Remember that peak PSU efficiency is usually under 50% load.
  • f. Cooler - air or liquid? I already told you why I prefer air. I also like to overkill here a bit even if I'm not pushing for max overclock. If I can run my PC a few degrees C cooler, that can only be a good thing! smile
  • g. GPU - why is GPU last? Simply because it's easier to upgrade GPUs later on. 6 months or a year from now, flog your old GPU and buy a new one and plug it in with minimal hassle compared to upgrading PSU or CPU.


2. Assembling PCs is easy! You may want to watch a few YT videos just to get an idea of how-to but most connections are designed to only go in one way so there's no chance of getting it wrong.

The nice thing about building your own as well is that come upgrade time, you'll have the confidence to install your own upgrades.... or if things go wrong, you can go under the hood and not have it sitting in some repair shop for weeks.


Originally Posted by malibu43
Originally Posted by - Ice
One thing you need to consider is what type of screen setup you want to go with. Single 1920x1080? Three-screen setup? 4K? Ultra-wide?

Probably just a single 1920x1080, maybe 24"...? I don't really know. I've been playing on a 17" 1920x1080 laptop, so I imagine anything is going to feel like a massive upgrade. Definitely one screen though.

Depending on budget, you may want to consider a 27" or 32" screen at 1080p or 2K resolution.... or one of those ultra-wide monitors.... especially for flight sims, that extra peripheral view can do wonders smile


- Ice
#4395467 - 12/18/17 05:45 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Is there a good website to use that will walk me through all the items I need to make sure I don't miss something (cables, screws, etc...)? I go fill a shopping cart on NewEgg, but I won't know if I've missed something.

I can customize on CyberPowerPC, but not sure if I'm still getting the best deal if I do it that way...


Sager NP8671 17.3" Notebook, i74720HQ (3.6GHz), GTX 970M (3.0GB), 8GB DDR3 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HD, TrackIR 4, CH HOTAS and rudder pedals
#4395470 - 12/18/17 05:56 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Took some of the feedback from above and added to the $1075 model I linked initially. Thoughts appreciated...

BASE_PRICE: [+1075]
BLUETOOTH: None
CABLE: None
CAS: Corsair Carbide 300R w/ USB 3.0 [+22]
CASUPGRADE: None
CC: None
CD: None
CD2: None
COOLANT: None
CPU: Intel® Core™ Processor i5-8600K 3.60GHZ 9MB Intel Smart Cache LGA1151 (Coffee Lake)
CS_FAN: Default case fans
ENGRAVING: None
ENGRAVING_MSG:
EVGA_POWER: None
FA_HDD: None
FAN: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO CPU Cooler w/ PWM fan - Efficient Cooling Performance [-6]
FLASHMEDIA: None
FREEBIE_MB: None
FREEBIE_VC: None
HD_M2SSD: None
HD_PCIE1X_SSD: None
HDD: 240GB WD Green SSD + 1TB SATA III Hard Drive Combo [+28] (Combo Drive)
HDD2: None
HEADSET: None
IUSB: Built-in USB 2.0 Ports
KEYBOARD: CyberpowerPC Multimedia USB Gaming Keyboard
MEMORY: 16GB (8GBx2) DDR4/2800MHz Dual Channel Memory [+135] (Performance Memory by Major Brands)
MONITOR: 27" BenQ GL2760H (1920x1080) 2ms (GTG) D-Sub, DVI, HDMI, LED Gaming Monitor [+183] (Single Monitor)
MOPAD: None
MOTHERBOARD: MSI Z370 GAMING PLUS ATX w/ USB 3.1, 3 PCIe x16, 3 PCIe x1, 6 SATA3, 2 M.2 SATA/PCIe [Intel Optane Ready]
MOUSE: CyberpowerPC Standard 4000 DPI with Weight System Optical Gaming Mouse
NETWORK: Onboard Gigabit LAN Network
OS: Windows 10 Home (64-bit Edition)
OVERCLOCK: No Overclocking
POWERSUPPLY: 700 Watts - Enermax Revo DUO series 700Watts 80 Plus Gold high-efficient airflow w/ Dual Fans Power Supply [+28]
PRO_WIRING: None
RUSH: Standard processing time: ship within 12 to 15 Business Days. CyberpowerPC can not guarantee Christmas Delivery
SERVICE: 3 Years FREE Service Plan (INCLUDES LABOR AND LIFETIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT)
SLI_BRIDGE: None
SOUND: HIGH DEFINITION ON-BOARD 7.1 AUDIO
SPEAKERS: Logitech S120 2.0 Stereo Speaker Set [+19] (Black Color)
USBHD: None
USBX: None
VIDEO: GeForce® GTX 1070 8GB GDDR5 (Pascal)[VR Ready] [+182] (Single Card)
VIVE_HEADSET: None
WARRANTY: STANDARD WARRANTY: 1 Year Parts WARRANTY
WNC: None
WTV: None
_PRICE: (+1666)


Sager NP8671 17.3" Notebook, i74720HQ (3.6GHz), GTX 970M (3.0GB), 8GB DDR3 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HD, TrackIR 4, CH HOTAS and rudder pedals
#4395501 - 12/18/17 08:06 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Originally Posted by malibu43
CAS: Corsair Carbide 300R w/ USB 3.0 [+22]

Interesting that you needed to ADD to the price for this case. I did like this case initially but opted for the bigger brother, the 500R because of the bigger side-panel 200mm fan (or option of 2x 120mm or 2x 140mm fans) and I was able to put another 140mm fan where the drive bays are for a total of three front fans smile


Originally Posted by malibu43
FAN: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO CPU Cooler w/ PWM fan - Efficient Cooling Performance [-6]

The Hyper 212 Evo is a good cooler but for an 8600K, I would personally spend a bit more for my cooler. Look at a few reviews to see performance of the Noctua NH-D15. In this review, using a 4770K, the Noctua was sitting at 71C-83C while the Hyper 212 was at 78C-95C. You'll also see that the Noctua is beating AIOs like the Corsair H110, both in temps and in noise. In this review we can see that the H100i V2 performs roughly the same as the H100i, but at less noise, with the most quiet at 43dB in the Quiet preset, so I'd say the Noctua beats both the H100i and H100i V2.


Originally Posted by malibu43
HDD: 240GB WD Green SSD + 1TB SATA III Hard Drive Combo [+28] (Combo Drive)

What exactly is the 1TB HDD brand and specs? If you're going to be short-stroking your HDD, make sure you get a 7200RPM drive and not one of those "eco" 5200RPM. If all you want is photo and video storage, then the 5200RPM won't matter smile


Originally Posted by malibu43
MEMORY: 16GB (8GBx2) DDR4/2800MHz Dual Channel Memory [+135] (Performance Memory by Major Brands)

I would get more specifics here... what brand exactly? Also consider the 16GB DDR4/3000MHz version instead of the 2800MHz version... seems like you're paying +135 for 2800MHz when you could pay +120 for 3000MHz.


Originally Posted by malibu43
POWERSUPPLY: 700 Watts - Enermax Revo DUO series 700Watts 80 Plus Gold high-efficient airflow w/ Dual Fans Power Supply [+28]

This is a bit of an oddity to me. Two fans? Not sure about this. My PSU pulls air from UNDER the case and exhausts it out the back so the PSU contributes very little to the internal heat.... also, the fan only spools up when the PSU is under load, making for quiet operations when I'm not gaming. I'm not sure how the dual fan setup of your choice affects the internal temps or where it exhausts the heat.


Originally Posted by malibu43
VIDEO: GeForce® GTX 1070 8GB GDDR5 (Pascal)[VR Ready] [+182] (Single Card)

Sweet card!!


Originally Posted by malibu43
Is there a good website to use that will walk me through all the items I need to make sure I don't miss something (cables, screws, etc...)? I go fill a shopping cart on NewEgg, but I won't know if I've missed something.

I don't specifically remember having to buy separate SATA cables, but that's the only thing I can think of..... the PSU should have more than enough cables for your basic needs (mobo, GPU, fans, 2 drives), the case will come with it's own cables for whatever wiring it needs, and if you buy extra Noctua fans (I'm sure the same can be said for other brands), it'll come with the cables you'd need/want. Monitors comes with its own connectors as well, but you may want/need a different cable based on your monitor and GPU. For example, my monitors only accept VGA, DVI, and HDMI but my GPU only does 1x DVI, 3x DP, 1x HDMI so I had to buy 3x DVI-to-DP adapter cables for my 3 display monitors.

You'll most likely end up with more screws than you need smile


- Ice
#4395510 - 12/18/17 09:29 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Well, Ice, the reason some of those choices look a little odd to you is that I have no idea what I'm doing! That being said, I may be better off going with an OTS configuration with minimal changes. Actually, unless there's something wrong with that first $1070 option I linked, I would probably just add a 27" monitor and maybe up the GPU to whatever budget allows... Anything beyond that, I'm clearly just picking more expensive stuff hoping it's better... biggrin

This is all still a way off in the future thing anyway. I actually jokingly mentioned this idea to the wife, and she pretty much said I could do it whenever we have the money, which was a surprise! But there's some other stuff I need to take care of first before I can dedicate the money to this project...


Sager NP8671 17.3" Notebook, i74720HQ (3.6GHz), GTX 970M (3.0GB), 8GB DDR3 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HD, TrackIR 4, CH HOTAS and rudder pedals
#4395521 - 12/18/17 10:16 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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First point --- might be better to have a look once you're closer to buying. What may be good value now would change down the line and so the reason for picking Part A may no longer be valid at that time. 3-6 months down the line and the environment can change drastically.

Second point --- make choices based on an informed preference or reason. Why i5 and not an i7? Why 16GB and not 8GB RAM? Why 16GB and not 32GB RAM? Why dual-channel kit and not quad? Learning about these things can be part of the fun of building your own PC, plus it'll help you make decisions later on when it becomes time to upgrade. Don't be afraid to ask "why" when someone makes a suggestion either. My reasons for recommending air coolers may be something you don't care about..... or may be something you've not realized before! Either way, you've learned why you'd want to ignore or follow that suggestion as opposed to just blindly following along.

Third point --- I'm assuming "OTS" means off-the-shelf? There's also a reason most people recommend building your own.... what YOU need may not be what system builders have in mind when they make a pre-built system. Their build philosophies may be different from yours. They may be trying to fit in under a certain price point.... and an extra $100 or so may allow for better parts that you'd want but they've not included as they were trying to hit a certain total build price.

I have absolutely no clue why RGB cases and tempered glass side panels are the craze these days.... I don't look at my PC case when I play, I look at my monitors and my games. At the very least, I'd appreciate RGB lighting to tell me if my system is at max or close to overheating..... but then again that's what stress tests are for.

If all you want is a machine that will do MS Word, Excel, Photoshop, Powerpoint, and the occasional gaming, then pick off-the-shelf. If you want something with a purpose, something that will be good value for money, but will allow for silly luxury upgrades, then BIY (build it yourself!!!) is the way to go!

Last --- there is nothing "wrong" with the $1075 build you linked..... provided you agree with all the choices and understand the limitations. As cited before, pairing up an 8600K with a single-fan rad or a Hyper 212 will definitely work for your everyday needs, but it may struggle or fail entirely once you start overclocking.............. and overclocking is a big part of choosing a K-series CPU as opposed to a non-K CPU.


For the meantime, I suggest you start thinking about these things and decide what you want from your gaming PC. biggrin


- Ice
#4395693 - 12/19/17 06:01 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Yep, clearly have some learnin' to do!

I think I have a handle on the big stuff that gets talked about all the time - CPU, GPU, and RAM. But all this stuff like motherboard, cooling systems, PSU, I just have no idea. I'll dig into it.


Sager NP8671 17.3" Notebook, i74720HQ (3.6GHz), GTX 970M (3.0GB), 8GB DDR3 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HD, TrackIR 4, CH HOTAS and rudder pedals
#4395696 - 12/19/17 06:09 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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It seems like there's no strict guidelines on picking a good motherboard. What I've gotten from other builders is that if it's from a reputable brand and caters to the top-of-the-line chipsets, then they're generally good motherboards and the criteria for picking one over the other would be whether the motherboard supports stuff you want/need such as enough USB ports, enough ports of the type you need (ie, USB 2, USB 3, or USB Type A, USB Type C), support for one or more NVMe drives, etc.

As for cooling systems, there are a lot of reviews out there! smile

PSUs --- same as motherboard. Brand-named, 80-plus certified, gold or higher, enough connections for your needs, high enough wattage for your needs.


- Ice
#4395751 - 12/19/17 10:15 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Originally Posted by malibu43
Yep, clearly have some learnin' to do!

I think I have a handle on the big stuff that gets talked about all the time - CPU, GPU, and RAM. But all this stuff like motherboard, cooling systems, PSU, I just have no idea. I'll dig into it.


With a good case and a decent cooler on the GPU and CPU you do not need to overdo cooling. A good higher airflow case typically comes with enough fans, and a decent $8-10 120mm/140mm to fill the last remaining slot in the front is all that is needed. You can snag Arctic Cooling fans for very cheap and they will do the job and last a good 5-7 years in general. Make sure your GPU is not the single fan blower style cooler and that will be sufficient. CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks. I would only bother with the large Noctuas or water cooling if you intended on squeezing every last MHZ out of your overclock, and by reading your replies in this thread, I do not think you will be doing that.

Here is an example of my setup:
[Linked Image]

Nothing complicated. Very quiet and cool. The case came with two 140mm fans, and I added an old Corsair I had from a previous case as well as an old Noctua fan (very expensive for what you get, IMO). Good airflow and cable management as well as a solid cooler on the CPU/GPU will be more than enough. Even during gaming during the summer months the PC hardly spools up. It does a little bit, but it is still very quiet. Nothing you will even notice if you are using volume of any kind. Just get a few decent fans (Arctic Cooling is excellent for the price) and that should be all you need.

The Carbide 300R should be a good case, but those excessive DVD/CD bays will hurt airflow. You can probably pull them out. I don't use a DVD/CD drive anymore. If I happen to need one I may purchase an external. I had a Corsair 550D and while it was decent, my Define S was a fairly large step up in terms of keep my components cool. The PC became notably more quiet. You can also save a bit of space in these newer case designs by shortening the front due to the lack of the DVD bays.

My HDD/SSDs are mounted on the back.

#4395769 - 12/19/17 11:55 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks. I would only bother with the large Noctuas or water cooling if you intended on squeezing every last MHZ out of your overclock, and by reading your replies in this thread, I do not think you will be doing that.

Might well be the case, but spending £250+ on a CPU and maybe another £100 on the motherboard and you pair it with a £25 cooler? Something's not right with that picture.

Even if you're sitting at stock clocks and a £25 cooler can keep it below critical temps, why run at a higher temp when you can buy a better cooler and run at cooler temps? If money is really, really, REALLY tight, maybe skimp on the cooler and upgrade later. But if that were the case, why buy a £250+ 8600K to sit on stock clocks and not buy say an i3 8100? Both are 3.60GHz clock speed but one is £250+ and the other is £110, a £140 saving. So the assumption when buying a K-series chip is that the user will OC and even if he does not go to the bleeding edge of his silicon lottery, lower temps are still better temps.

Note that some parts of your build can last you a few upgrades as well and so there's no harm in "investing" a little bit on good hardware. A good PC case can last 2-3 upgrade cycles (with a cycle being anywhere from 3-5 years), same thing for the PSU. My Noctua NH-D15 has mounts for Intel and AMD processors and unless there's a big shift in CPU/motherboard design (not compatible with Threadripper/TR4 but compatible with Ryzen/AM4), my cooler can work with a few upgrade cycles as well.

Another reason to get a good cooler is noise. If a heatsink can draw out and dissipate heat effectively, you can run your fans at lower RPMs and therefore lower noise. Take a look at this review here. At max load, the Noctua sits at 71-83C while the Hyper 212 sits at 78-95C and assuming they were done with 100% fan speeds, the Noctua sits at 43dBA while the Hyper 212 is at 46dBA.... and it does this with the fans spinning at lower RPMs than the Hyper 212. While a sound level of 43dBA and 46dBA cannot really be distinguished from each other, suffice to say that the Noctua is as quiet as the Hyper 212 while providing better cooling performance.

Simply put, less heat = less wear and if I can get better cooling at similar noise levels, why not? smile


- Ice
#4395801 - 12/20/17 03:04 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

Might well be the case, but spending £250+ on a CPU and maybe another £100 on the motherboard and you pair it with a £25 cooler? Something's not right with that picture.


I think the better question is: Why spend that much on a CPU cooler? Even if raising voltage, it will be sufficient with a decent cooler. Unless you are trying to squeeze that last bit of performance out of a CPU (lets say you are trying for 4.8-5GHZ on Intel's current offerings) it isn't necessary. I don't think the OP plans on pushing his CPU to the limit either. Most of the good coolers will be near silent at full load and the temps will be well within the safe limits.

The Hyper 212 is also a bit outdated. The Cryorig offerings as an example outpace it performance wise, and can be had as cheap as $30. Cryorig also offers free mounting kit upgrades for their $30 offerings, for example they sent out AM4 kits free of charge when Ryzen came out. Noctua is great, but unless you are an extreme overclocker there isn't much of a reason to get it. That extra $30-40 can be spent possibly upgrading the SSD which would be more beneficial.

Noctua is great and they did start the trend of free mounting upgrades if I am not mistaken.

Some things to note:
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Read the full review here:
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/CRYORIG/H7_Universal/6.html

Is it better? Of course! Is it really worth the extra cash when budget limited? I'd say no. Noctua is great but the lower priced offerings have certainly gotten better.

#4395922 - 12/20/17 07:33 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I think the better question is: Why spend that much on a CPU cooler?


Originally Posted by - Ice
why run at a higher temp when you can buy a better cooler and run at cooler temps?
Simply put, less heat = less wear and if I can get better cooling at similar noise levels, why not? smile


- Ice
#4395924 - 12/20/17 07:57 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I think the better question is: Why spend that much on a CPU cooler?


Originally Posted by - Ice
why run at a higher temp when you can buy a better cooler and run at cooler temps?
Simply put, less heat = less wear and if I can get better cooling at similar noise levels, why not? smile



Again, why? The cooler temps won't make the performance better and the few degrees won't result in any notable difference in CPU life. CPUs will last very long, unless the voltage is pushed to the absolute limits 24/7 (4.8 to 5GHZ for 6-7+ years) then you may see some degradation in the life span. Otherwise, unless you frequently monitor your CPU temps (which I doubt most people do when simming/gaming) you won't notice any difference. And games tend to keep CPU temps notably lower than most CPU stress test programs which is something else to keep in mind. Considering the needs of the OP, simming/gaming and the fact he isn't the most computer literate, I don't think he will be trying to OC his CPU to the maximum voltages. I just don't see how a $70-90 cooler will be that beneficial. A cheap one will do the same thing, be roughly if not just as quiet, and still keep the CPU cool enough to be well within safe operating temperatures.

I'd say he is better off using the extra money on a larger SSD, HDD, or even a better mouse, keyboard or mouse pad.

#4395931 - 12/20/17 08:45 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Again, why? The cooler temps won't make the performance better and the few degrees won't result in any notable difference in CPU life.

Originally Posted by - Ice
Simply put, less heat = less wear and if I can get better cooling at similar noise levels, why not? smile


It may not improve performance at average OCs, yes, but I'm more comfortable knowing that my CPU is nice and happy and cool. I'm not saying your reasoning is wrong, I'm just saying this is my philosophy in this regard. You and the OP are free to ignore if you wish. As for CPU life, outside of extreme OC'ing, I'm not sure if anyone has done any study really regarding CPU lifespan depending on temperatures, but again, I prefer to err on the side of caution here.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I just don't see how a $70-90 cooler will be that beneficial. A cheap one will do the same thing, be roughly if not just as quiet, and still keep the CPU cool enough to be well within safe operating temperatures.

A few degrees cooler is not beneficial? For comparison sake, your recommended cooler is half the price of my Noctua....


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I'd say he is better off using the extra money on a larger SSD, HDD, or even a better mouse, keyboard or mouse pad.

I didn't quite get the impression that we were penny-pinching a £40 cooler vs. a £80 cooler as the OP linked two builds which were $600 apart in price.... plus he's mentioned a budget of $1500.... plus we were talking about the $1075 build and adding to it, so I doubt that the extra £40 spent on the Noctua will be missed in the overall budget.


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#4395968 - 12/21/17 01:33 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

I didn't quite get the impression that we were penny-pinching a £40 cooler vs. a £80 cooler as the OP linked two builds which were $600 apart in price.... plus he's mentioned a budget of $1500.... plus we were talking about the $1075 build and adding to it, so I doubt that the extra £40 spent on the Noctua will be missed in the overall budget.


IMO, the extra 40 isn't worth it because it adds no real utility (better performance or longer life). I think for the OP's needs it is similar to adding RGB lighting, superficial and more or less for looks. All I'm saying is that it isn't necessary for the OP and they're better off putting the money elsewhere, be it a mouse, extra flight sim addon/plane or some other hobby.

#4396108 - 12/21/17 09:29 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Running a few degrees cooler "adds no real utility"???

Sure, it's not necessary, sure, a cheaper cooler will do the job, but to say it adds no benefit is just a lie. The guiding principle here is that "heat is the enemy of electronics"..... if we go your way, I could argue why even put case fans on? Why even put a fan on the heatsink or radiator? If you CPU sits below throttling level under load, who cares if that is 75C or 95C? You've saved a few £££ from having to buy case fans, you've even scraped off a few decibels by going fully-passive cooling.... but that's not exactly sound advice now, is it? So why are you insisting on saving £40 to put elsewhere when the £40 is clearly within budget?


- Ice
#4396143 - 12/21/17 11:20 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Running a few degrees cooler "adds no real utility"???


Yes, it adds no utility. The CPU will be well within safe operating temperatures, will not throttle, will not run slower and will not have a shortened lifespan. Do tell me what utility it adds? Exception - If you are pushing the voltage to the highest possible setting (which most gamers and I doubt the OP will not do) the mid range coolers may insufficient depending on ambient temps / case cooling. But this thread was asking about sims/games and not so much about getting the maximum OC possible.


For the OP, keep in mind CPU stress testing software such as in the pictures above will push the temperatures well beyond what any normal application, especially games, will product. So take those max temperatures and shave off a good 10-15C and that will be more representative of real world sim/game heat. Temps will also vary between games, and this is especially true for GPUs. Running Battlefield 4 as an example will be 12C cooler than running another modern game, such as the recent Assassins Creed titles as an example. Similar can be seen with CPU temps although I find that variance isn't nearly as big as it is for GPUs.

As I mentioned previously, just ensure you have a case with at least mediocre airflow, add in a few fans (if you need extras, get some cheap Arctic cooling fans). Most cases and your pre-built set ups should come with most fan slots maxed out. The newer cases remove the CD/DVD drive bays which allow for a great amount of airflow over the CPU/GPU. That alone will cut temps down by a massive amount. Unless you need an internal DVD/CD/Blu Ray drive, I'd consider looking into a case with such a design.

I'd look into Fractal Design cases or something similar: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352054

Then just purchase an extra Arctic cooling fan or two and place it at the top/bottom:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811352054

One of the reasons I would prefer to buy the parts and assemble yourself is because you have more choice in choosing styling and components that work great together. Most of those cases offered by Cyber Power look fairly underwhelming from an airflow perspective, with some exceptions. I like the Fractal Design cases because they are closed in the front (minimizes noise) yet the side vent allows for superb airflow. A lot of cases do similar designs but the vent size, angle and shape are not ideal. For example, my older Corsair 550D had a similar concept but the intake of air was simply poor due to the angle. Moving to the Fractal Define S cut temps and noise by a large margin. Fractal Design cases also have sound dampening materials, which I enjoy. The Corsair 550D did as well, but again, the less than ideal airflow meant it was louder than my current case. And the Fractal cases tend to be fairly cheap all things considered.

** Unless you happen to live in the Mojave and don't run the AC, maybe consider stepping up the cooling. biggrin But otherwise, don't sweat cooling. It isn't too hard to get an almost noiseless PC for a fairly low price while keeping the temps very nice a low.


#4396148 - 12/22/17 12:00 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
The CPU will be well within safe operating temperatures, will not throttle, will not run slower and will not have a shortened lifespan. Do tell me what utility it adds? Exception - If you are pushing the voltage to the highest possible setting (which most gamers and I doubt the OP will not do) the mid range coolers may insufficient depending on ambient temps / case cooling. But this thread was asking about sims/games and not so much about getting the maximum OC possible.

Sigh.... who said about max OC? So if you have a CPU that throttles at 100C, by your logic, a cooler that maintains it at 30C (for, say, £80) and a cooler that maintains it at 60C (for, say, £15) or if you don't have a cooler at all (for £0) and the CPU sits at 90C, there is no utility at all for coolers?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
and will not have a shortened lifespan

Yeah.... let's just pretend that electronics do not get damaged by heat.... after all, nobody's fried the CPU in the history of overclocking, right? Nobody's fried their components due to overheating from dust? If you're happy to run your PC at higher temps, then by all means do so. I prefer to take steps to ensure that my gear runs as cool as I can make it.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
add in a few fans (if you need extras, get some cheap Arctic cooling fans).

And what is the utility of adding in a few fans? They add no utility.... unless you live in the Mojave and don't run AC, otherwise, don't sweat the cooling. In fact, flog those fans on eBay and get a few more £££ for a mouse, an extra sim addon/plane, or some other hobby smile


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
And the Fractal cases tend to be fairly cheap all things considered.

And what is the utility of the Fractal Define S? At £80, that's a lot of money... you can get cheaper cases with the same design layout (they're mostly similar nowadays anyway) for £30-40, that's a £40-50 saving that he can spend on a mouse, an extra sim addon/plane, or some other hobby smile


The point is.... spending a bit more does add utility. Lower temps. Better airflow. Better cable management. Better breathability. Less noise.
And as I pointed out earlier, items like cases, fans, and coolers can last for a couple of build cycles so spending extra on them NOW just makes sense in the long run.


- Ice
#4396169 - 12/22/17 03:53 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
why run at a higher temp when you can buy a better cooler and run at cooler temps?
Simply put, less heat = less wear and if I can get better cooling at similar noise levels, why not? smile


If you really think that going from ~roughly 67C to ~70C will make your CPU last longer then feel free to continue buying what you do. But the OP was looking for advice, and you're giving poor advice. You reach diminishing returns with the larger Noctua CPU coolers; they're better but the utility of a few degrees is nothing unless you are interested in extreme OCing. The CPU will not last longer and it will not run faster. Remember, mid-range coolers will keep the temps well within the safe operating temperatures. That means no throttling (same speed) and a similar life. We have already established the noise difference is very minimal.

Also keep in mind that even if your temps are low, you will be decreasing the life of the CPU by upping the voltage. Even if you are running 40C at max load, if you up the voltage to the upper limit you will be shortening the life (even if only by a little bit). Cooling is only part of the equation. Let us also consider the OP is still considering buying a pre-built PC, and I think we can safely gauge that he has zero interest pushing voltage to the limit. So this topic is of little concern for him, and coolers such as the Noctua is of little use.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Yeah.... let's just pretend that electronics do not get damaged by heat.... after all, nobody's fried the CPU in the history of overclocking, right? Nobody's fried their components due to overheating from dust? If you're happy to run your PC at higher temps, then by all means do so. I prefer to take steps to ensure that my gear runs as cool as I can make it.


You can't seem to differentiate between a few degrees and a lot. $40 for a few degrees is not a good way to spend money considering the cheaper alternative is sufficient with plenty of breathing room. I recommend to use a more practical cooler for the application (a mid-range cooler at half the price). Why ramble on about using the poorest cooling possible? I'm talking about the cost benefit of 3-4C. You can easily spend half as much and the practical result will be the same. Same life span, same speeds, roughly similar noise signature that will be very difficult to tell apart unless you are measuring the noise levels.

My original post regarding cooling:

Originally Posted by - Flogger23m

With a good case and a decent cooler on the GPU and CPU you do not need to overdo cooling. A good higher airflow case typically comes with enough fans, and a decent $8-10 120mm/140mm to fill the last remaining slot in the front is all that is needed. You can snag Arctic Cooling fans for very cheap and they will do the job and last a good 5-7 years in general. Make sure your GPU is not the single fan blower style cooler and that will be sufficient. CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks.


Notice the parts in bold. Assuming you have decent coolers, good airflow, decent case fans you do not need to worry about cooling. You do not need to spend top dollar on a CPU cooler to safely run a mild OC. Techpowerup!, [H]ardOCP and numerous other sites have come to such conclusions.

Here are other examples:
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Quote
This is a very simple concept. Create a cooler that performs better than any other cooler of its kind and sell it for a great price (Currently $40 at Newegg with Free Shipping). Reeven seems to have it figured out with the Justice CPU cooler, and we expect Reeven will sell a lot of this cooler. Why would anyone want to spend more money and get less performance with other brands?

We have a hard time believing Reeven produced a cooler that performs so well and at such quiet noise levels while offering it for such a low price. If you’re in the market for a large tower style cooler and don’t want to break your bank, then the Justice cooler is very likely what you are looking for.

We are happy to award the Reeven Justice cooler the Gold HardOCP Editor's Choice Award for its stellar performance and rock bottom price.


$40 Reeven Justice performing on almost on par with water cooling.

Reeven Justice Review

Not all of these benchmarks will show the NH-D15, but the difference between the 14 and 15 is fairly small:
http://www.legitreviews.com/noctua-nh-d15s-versus-nh-d15-cpu-cooler-review_188613/3

Essentially in all of these benchmarks, practically every cooler ran within safe operating temperatures, when OCed, running stress testing software which raises temps considerably higher than standard applications. Obviously some a better than others, such as Cryorig's offering, Reeven's offering, ect. A bit of research will show you that there are numerous options floating around $30-40 that get within a few degrees of the larger, more expensive Noctuas. And they will not result in a shorter CPU life or throttling. Ergo, there is no utility because the heat difference isn't enough to cause any of the problems (throttling or shortened life) discussed above. smile

#4396195 - 12/22/17 10:46 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Quote
Holiday PC Building Guide 2017: Squeezing Out Maximum Gaming Performance in $700, $1100 and $1450 Budgets


Full Article

If one builds their own, here's an article that tries to find the "best for the price" components and provides links.

Their opinions, of course. And, depends on where one lives.


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#4396197 - 12/22/17 10:56 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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PC Building Tool is said to get the best system for the best price. Used in above article.

Just tell it what type of PC you want -- it does the rest, they say (I haven't tried it).

PC Building Tool Link


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#4396298 - 12/22/17 08:23 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
If you really think that going from ~roughly 67C to ~70C will make your CPU last longer then feel free to continue buying what you do.

No wonder you're confused. I wasn't talking about going from 67C to 70C but the other way around.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
But the OP was looking for advice, and you're giving poor advice.

My apologies. I did not realize that spending £250 on a K-series i5 and maybe another £110 on a motherboard and then turning around and spending $30/£22 on a cooler was good advice. If we were penny pinching everywhere and working under a very, very tight budget, then I would see the point.... but we're not. The OP clearly mentioned a budget of $1500 and even then, there was wiggle room.... and we are talking about a sub-$1100 build.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You reach diminishing returns with the larger Noctua CPU coolers; they're better but the utility of a few degrees is nothing unless you are interested in extreme OCing.

Again with the extreme OC. Stop pushing the strawman.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
The CPU will not last longer

I am genuinely interested in any source you have for this claim. Otherwise, I will keep pushing that cooler is better, therefore erring on the safe side.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
and it will not run faster.

False.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Cooling is only part of the equation.

And it is that part that we can influence by buying a better cooler.....


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Let us also consider the OP is still considering buying a pre-built PC, and I think we can safely gauge that he has zero interest pushing voltage to the limit. So this topic is of little concern for him, and coolers such as the Noctua is of little use.

Why buy a K-series CPU if you don't intend to OC? And please, for the love of God, try wrapping your head around the difference of OC'ing and pushing voltage to the limit..... if that was the topic, we'd be talking custom cooling loops and maybe oil baths or N20 cooling.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You can't seem to differentiate between a few degrees and a lot. $40 for a few degrees is not a good way to spend money

Hmmm.... spend money keeping my CPU cool or buy a new mouse?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I recommend to use a more practical cooler for the application (a mid-range cooler at half the price).

Sure, he can use whatever cooler he wants. I'm just saying the pricier ones can be worth the price....


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Why ramble on about using the poorest cooling possible?

I was just exaggerating to make a point about your silly build philosophy.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You do not need to spend top dollar on a CPU cooler to safely run a mild OC.

I agree. You somehow seem to be imagining me talking about max OC when you're the only one arguing about that point.



- Ice
#4396362 - 12/23/17 03:55 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Allen]  
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Originally Posted by Allen
PC Building Tool is said to get the best system for the best price. Used in above article.

Just tell it what type of PC you want -- it does the rest, they say (I haven't tried it).

PC Building Tool Link


I would also look into ebay, as Newegg.com and Best Buy also have store pages there although they do not have every single item they sell on their own websites. But you can often get the same prices plus $15 off with eBay coupons. Right now ebay has such a coupon if you use their mobile app (desktop site won't work) and you can get $15 off some component.

On the topic of cooling, Noctua 140mm fans are on sale at Amazon for only $10:
https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-Beari...26bd289d02817d70INT&tag=hardfocom-20

Very good price for a quality 140mm. I'd get one but shipping plus tax will negate any sensible savings. My single Noctua 120mm seems to be having some issues (yet my Corsair are still running strong) so I may toss one in the cart if something else catches my eye to get the minimum.

#4396368 - 12/23/17 05:00 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

No wonder you're confused. I wasn't talking about going from 67C to 70C but the other way around.


That is the real world difference in PC games between your cooler preference and cheaper alternatives.

Originally Posted by - Ice

My apologies. I did not realize that spending £250 on a K-series i5 and maybe another £110 on a motherboard and then turning around and spending $30/£22 on a cooler was good advice.


Well now you know! smile

Originally Posted by - Ice

Again with the extreme OC. Stop pushing the strawman.


You shouldn't have went down that route then. It offers no utility outside of extreme OCing, therefore it is a waste of money for the OP.

Originally Posted by - Ice

I am genuinely interested in any source you have for this claim. Otherwise, I will keep pushing that cooler is better, therefore erring on the safe side.


When you can prove to us that 3-4C (when well within safe operating temperatures) is enough to extend the life of a modern CPU, let us know. If it was a problem Techpowerup!, [H]ardOCP and various other respectable sites would have reported it by now.

Originally Posted by - Ice

False.


I have linked various stress testing benchmarks that show that is not the case with various coolers. So it is not false.

Originally Posted by - Ice

And it is that part that we can influence by buying a better cooler.....


The cost benefit isn't there, as there is no utility. There are a number of options that cost half as much that will give you the same performance, noise signature and still be well within safe operating temperatures. Feel free to view the links above.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Why buy a K-series CPU if you don't intend to OC?


You can buy a K-series CPU and OC it and still be within safe operating temperatures, prevent throttling and have a very similar noise signature with a cheaper cooler. A Noctua cooler isn't necessary to prevent pre-mature CPU death when OCing. If your research has consistently proved otherwise, maybe you should get in touch with some of the more respected PC hardware review sites and you can write their articles for them.

Originally Posted by - Ice

And please, for the love of God, try wrapping your head around the difference of OC'ing and pushing voltage to the limit....


Why else would you buy a 2x heatsink / 2x fan Noctua cooler?

Originally Posted by - Ice

Hmmm.... spend money keeping my CPU cool or buy a new mouse?


If you're obsessed with CPU temperature watching then buy the best, most expensive cooler out there. But the are numerous mid range cooler offerings that can handle an OC just fine. Ergo, put the money into something which will make a noticeable difference, such as a good mouse.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Sure, he can use whatever cooler he wants. I'm just saying the pricier ones can be worth the price....


For sims/games while running a modest OC? No, the mid range coolers have progressed in the last few years. I think the previous reviews should be an indication of that.

Originally Posted by - Ice

I was just exaggerating to make a point about your silly build philosophy.


That getting a near silent PC with excellent airflow, cool temps on the CPU/GPU with OCs can be fairly cheap and does not require $100 coolers and $25 case fans? That is a silly philosophy?

Originally Posted by - Ice

I agree. You somehow seem to be imagining me talking about max OC when you're the only one arguing about that point.


That is the only reason to get a larger Noctua cooler. In other words, it is a waste of money if the goal is a modest OC to play games/sims.

Originally Posted by - Flogger23m

With a good case and a decent cooler on the GPU and CPU you do not need to overdo cooling. A good higher airflow case typically comes with enough fans, and a decent $8-10 120mm/140mm to fill the last remaining slot in the front is all that is needed. You can snag Arctic Cooling fans for very cheap and they will do the job and last a good 5-7 years in general. Make sure your GPU is not the single fan blower style cooler and that will be sufficient. CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks.


The important part of my first reply to this thread. I specifically mentioned good airflow, good coolers (which can be had for $30-40), good GPU cooler, and some decent quality case fans. All of these things can be had for very little. An $80 case with good airflow designs, adding an extra one or two $7 Arctic Cooling fans and a $30-40 CPU cooler is all that you need if your intention is a modest OC. Of course, get a decent cooler on your GPU. You don't need a $200 case, $25 case fans, and a $80-100 CPU coolers to get a near silent, cool PC that operates well within safe operating temperature limits. smile

Originally Posted by - malibu43

Let's just imagine that my budget is around $1500. A little more is OK. Less would be good too, as that makes it an easier sell to my wife.


I'm merely trying to help the OP get a good setup while saving as much as possible.

Some graphs to show the temperature between mid range coolers and those that cost twice as much (All of these graphs are with OCed CPUs):
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Yes, the cheaper cooler is actually performing better from a temperature standpoint.

Average temps under Prime95, which raises temps about 12-15C higher than your typical PC game:
[Linked Image]

Hardly any difference. 68C isn't going to prematurely fry an Intel CPU. The 4C saving won't lengthen the life. Did I mention this was Prime95?

Another CPU stress testing software, which again, raises temps well above what you would see in a game/sim. These are the max recorded temps and not the average:
[Linked Image]

The difference between the two will be smaller in an actual PC game. The temps for all coolers across the board will be a lot lower.

Noise wise the difference is also very small, which you also noted previously. smile

Noctua coolers are great, but for a modest OC, they're unnecessary. Do you wear a helmet when you take a walk outside? Probably not; it


#4396390 - 12/23/17 10:35 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
No wonder you're confused. I wasn't talking about going from 67C to 70C but the other way around.

That is the real world difference in PC games between your cooler preference and cheaper alternatives.

Still missed the point....


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
My apologies. I did not realize that spending £250 on a K-series i5 and maybe another £110 on a motherboard and then turning around and spending $30/£22 on a cooler was good advice.

Well now you know! smile

And apparently, missed the sarcasm....


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
Again with the extreme OC. Stop pushing the strawman.

You shouldn't have went down that route then. It offers no utility outside of extreme OCing, therefore it is a waste of money for the OP.

Going down the route of OC'ing and pushing the strawman of extreme OC'ing are two different things.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
I am genuinely interested in any source you have for this claim. Otherwise, I will keep pushing that cooler is better, therefore erring on the safe side.

When you can prove to us that 3-4C (when well within safe operating temperatures) is enough to extend the life of a modern CPU, let us know. If it was a problem Techpowerup!, [H]ardOCP and various other respectable sites would have reported it by now.

I'm asking YOU to prove your claim that running things cooler have no utility. I've provided the guideline that heat is the enemy of electronics and thus try to get my temps as low as I can, but you are the one claiming that the temp difference between a cheap cooler and a Noctua NH-D15 does not have any adverse effects. Prove this. Please stop trying to flip things around and making other people do your research for you. You've done this before and obviously you're trying again.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
False.

I have linked various stress testing benchmarks that show that is not the case with various coolers. So it is not false.

Try to follow the discussion here and comprehend why it's false.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
And it is that part that we can influence by buying a better cooler.....

The cost benefit isn't there, as there is no utility. There are a number of options that cost half as much that will give you the same performance, noise signature and still be well within safe operating temperatures. Feel free to view the links above.

Sorry, but if you insist that running a few degrees cooler is "no utility" and is "same performance," then there's no use arguing with you.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
Why buy a K-series CPU if you don't intend to OC?

You can buy a K-series CPU and OC it and still be within safe operating temperatures, prevent throttling and have a very similar noise signature with a cheaper cooler. A Noctua cooler isn't necessary to prevent pre-mature CPU death when OCing. If your research has consistently proved otherwise, maybe you should get in touch with some of the more respected PC hardware review sites and you can write their articles for them.

Ah, so now you distinguish between OC'ing and max OC? Funny how you harp about max OC only when it suits you.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
And please, for the love of God, try wrapping your head around the difference of OC'ing and pushing voltage to the limit....

Why else would you buy a 2x heatsink / 2x fan Noctua cooler?

Seriously dude... I've tackled this to death now. I doubt explaining it again will help. Feel free to re-read above posts.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
If you're obsessed with CPU temperature watching then buy the best, most expensive cooler out there. But the are numerous mid range cooler offerings that can handle an OC just fine. Ergo, put the money into something which will make a noticeable difference, such as a good mouse.

Yes, I am obsessed with making my PC run the best it can during stress tests, that way, I am assured that I am getting the most from my components in the safest way.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
Sure, he can use whatever cooler he wants. I'm just saying the pricier ones can be worth the price....

For sims/games while running a modest OC? No, the mid range coolers have progressed in the last few years. I think the previous reviews should be an indication of that.

I just love it how you talk about modest OC to push your point, but insist on max voltage insane OC when tackling other viewpoints.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
I was just exaggerating to make a point about your silly build philosophy.

That getting a near silent PC with excellent airflow, cool temps on the CPU/GPU with OCs can be fairly cheap and does not require $100 coolers and $25 case fans? That is a silly philosophy?

Sigh..... Part of me is hoping that you're just missing the points I'm making to further your own, ie doing it on purpose, but now I think you really are missing the point because you actually do miss the point.

Silent PC? We've shown both the cheap coolers and the Noctua have the same dBA levels. Besides, you've just harped about adding another fan or two to the case.... that hardly supports a "silent PC" build.
Excellent airflow? Silent and airflow don't really go hand-in-hand. The Fractal Define S that you've cited has a closed front with the fans getting air via the SIDE vents and the top is either closed for silence or open for airflow. So unless you're talking about an open bench case, you're trading one in for the other.
As for cheap.... we're buying a K-series chip with a $1000-$1500 budget and even then, with flexibility.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
I agree. You somehow seem to be imagining me talking about max OC when you're the only one arguing about that point.

That is the only reason to get a larger Noctua cooler. In other words, it is a waste of money if the goal is a modest OC to play games/sims.

Wrong.


Originally Posted by - Flogger23m
You don't need a $200 case, $25 case fans, and a $80-100 CPU coolers to get a near silent, cool PC that operates well within safe operating temperature limits. smile

Try to see why I agree with you here.... then try to see why we're still having this argument.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - malibu43
Let's just imagine that my budget is around $1500. A little more is OK. Less would be good too, as that makes it an easier sell to my wife.

I'm merely trying to help the OP get a good setup while saving as much as possible.

Please show me where the Noctua was breaking the OP's budget.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Some graphs to show the temperature between mid range coolers and those that cost twice as much (All of these graphs are with OCed CPUs):
Yes, the cheaper cooler is actually performing better from a temperature standpoint.

Wow.... are you being dishonest on purpose? Are we back to the "oh you just said i5 and i7 so I assumed any i5 and i7!"?? Your examples cited a Noctua NH-U14S, a cooler I've never talked about. Single-tower, single-fan..... I'm talking about the Noctua NH-D15, two towers, two fans. You recognized this distinction earlier in your post ( 2x heatsink / 2x fan) but then you ignore it to prove your point? Fail.

This is why it's so hard to maintain a good discussion with you, when you cite a totally invalid example to prove your point.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Average temps under Prime95, which raises temps about 12-15C higher than your typical PC game:
Hardly any difference. 68C isn't going to prematurely fry an Intel CPU. The 4C saving won't lengthen the life. Did I mention this was Prime95?

Oh wow! Look at when you actually get the correct cooler I'm referring to! Is the cheaper cooler now performing better from a temperature standpoint?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Another CPU stress testing software, which again, raises temps well above what you would see in a game/sim. These are the max recorded temps and not the average:

Oh, interesting! Is the cheaper cooler now performing better from a temperature standpoint?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
The difference between the two will be smaller in an actual PC game. The temps for all coolers across the board will be a lot lower.

Missing the point again entirely. Might as well talk about idle load temps at this stage.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Noctua coolers are great, but for a modest OC, they're unnecessary. Do you wear a helmet when you take a walk outside? Probably not; it

For someone that misses the point, misses the sarcasm, and can't tell the difference when the values are staring him right in the face, maybe you should think about wearing a helmet when going outside.


- Ice
#4396912 - 12/26/17 10:12 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Malibu,
I’m looking to update some myself, so I’ve been looking at a lot of what you are.
I agree about the i5-8600k, even if you don’t plan to overclock, but especially if you will one day. I see no point in the i7 8700k, it looks like the i5 runs much cooler and is capable of out performing the i7 with more aggressive overclocking possible. Still, even stock it looks like a cpu to perform really well for many years, and at a good price, comparatively.

Memory..I’ll possibly go with 8GB this time. I have yet to see my system use even that, much less 16. DDR4 2666MHz.

Mobo...I’d get something capable of overclocking, just for the long run. You don’t need to know much about it, they usually have an automatic tool that will give you some options for mild or aggressive OC’ing and will test for you for stability. Asus is pretty good about that.

Corsair AIO coolers are respected, but I agree about going with the dual fans. Might as well. Better cooling with dual fans also means lower fan speeds involved and thus less fan noise. This system should be pretty silent.

GPU..the 1070’s are still the champ for the money. 8GB leaves plenty of headroom for games. I still love mine and it runs 1440p like a champ.

As for the monitor, I love my Benq even though it isn’t considered a gaming monitor, but for photo and video editing. A bargain for the size and at 32”, 1440p is a necessity, but not nearly as hard to push as 4k. Brilliant monitor and solid with a great adjustable stand.

Drives...can’t go wrong with a SSD samsung evo, whatever is current, and I agree 250GB for the OS, no less. It will fill up as you get updates etc, so 120 won’t do the job after a year or so without constant management.
Go with a WD Black drive for storage of games and relocate your user files to it for docs, pics, downloads.

Just my .02


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#4397147 - 12/28/17 03:03 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Thanks Raw, Ice, and others. I've got a good idea of what I should look for. Not sure if/when it will happen, but I'll make sure to come back to this thread when it's time!


Sager NP8671 17.3" Notebook, i74720HQ (3.6GHz), GTX 970M (3.0GB), 8GB DDR3 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HD, TrackIR 4, CH HOTAS and rudder pedals
#4397166 - 12/28/17 04:03 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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Your welcome! I hope the lively discussion showed you the many sides of PC building smile At the end of the day, you'll want a build that is right for YOU and not for anyone else!


- Ice
#4397243 - 12/28/17 10:40 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite

Memory..I’ll possibly go with 8GB this time. I have yet to see my system use even that, much less 16. DDR4 2666MHz.


8GB will be fine for most games/sims, but a few may start pushing over that limit in the coming year or so. Depending on the price difference between 8GB and 16GB do consider 16GB. If you're paying near twice as much and are on a tight budget then you can certainly pass on 16GB for the time being. Just get a good brand and series of 8GB RAM (Corsair Vengeance ect.) so it will be easy to find an identical set in the future.

Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite

Better cooling with dual fans also means lower fan speeds involved and thus less fan noise. This system should be pretty silent.


In general the difference is not very big between one or two fans (I am talking about CPU air + heatsink coolers). Typically within 1-2C. It comes down to the price; if you can save a notable amount of money and you have a case with good airflow in the first place I would skip the second fan. It is also easier to clean out the heatsink without the second fan if you don't plan on uninstalling the cooler each time you clean it. The type of heatsink will also determine if it is easier to clean or not; one with an open side will be easier to clean.

Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite

Drives...can’t go wrong with a SSD samsung evo, whatever is current, and I agree 250GB for the OS, no less. It will fill up as you get updates etc, so 120 won’t do the job after a year or so without constant management.
Go with a WD Black drive for storage of games and relocate your user files to it for docs, pics, downloads.
Just my .02


And do consider Crucial, which are a bit slower than Samsung in general, but often can be found cheaper. The current generation of WD Blues are also about on par with the Crucials and are similar in price. Worth considering if you can find a good deal on them.

#4397246 - 12/28/17 11:05 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
8GB will be fine for most games/sims, but a few may start pushing over that limit in the coming year or so. Depending on the price difference between 8GB and 16GB do consider 16GB. If you're paying near twice as much and are on a tight budget then you can certainly pass on 16GB for the time being. Just get a good brand and series of 8GB RAM (Corsair Vengeance ect.) so it will be easy to find an identical set in the future.

Can you pair a 8GB stick with another 8GB stick (assuming all other specs match)? I thought RAM kits were specially designed to work together and it's not just putting two 8GB sticks together?

I did get 16GB when I upgraded my PC in Dec 2015 simply because I had 8GB RAM at the time and I wanted an "upgrade" and not just a new RAM setup. However, looking at the price I paid then, that same amount will only get you a 8GB RAM kit these days frown Not really a good time to be building.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
In general the difference is not very big between one or two fans (I am talking about CPU air + heatsink coolers). Typically within 1-2C.

Really?? I find this hard to believe.... some single-tower heat sinks come with push-pull fans and some serious custom loop builds do the same with radiators. Surely the difference is more than 1-2C?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
It comes down to the price; if you can save a notable amount of money and you have a case with good airflow in the first place I would skip the second fan.

Again, "notable amount of money" for a good case fan would be relative. For a budget build, yes.... for latest K-series chips and 1st/2nd tier GPUs, not so much.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
It is also easier to clean out the heatsink without the second fan if you don't plan on uninstalling the cooler each time you clean it. The type of heatsink will also determine if it is easier to clean or not; one with an open side will be easier to clean.

I would argue that to CLEAN your heatsink, you'd want to take it out of the PC case, give the fans a good wipe, and give the fins a good blast of air. Otherwise, you're just relocating the dust to other parts of your PC smile


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
And do consider Crucial, which are a bit slower than Samsung in general, but often can be found cheaper. The current generation of WD Blues are also about on par with the Crucials and are similar in price. Worth considering if you can find a good deal on them.

+1 to this! My first SSD is a Crucial M4 which is still going strong while the Samsung I purchased after it went kaput just after the warranty expired frown


- Ice
#4397252 - 12/28/17 11:48 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

Can you pair a 8GB stick with another 8GB stick (assuming all other specs match)? I thought RAM kits were specially designed to work together and it's not just putting two 8GB sticks together?


Yes! That is why I say to get a good brand that is commonly found. But if they are different speeds/timings/series (I can't keep up with them all anymore) then you will likely have issues. Corsair LPX Vengeance seems to be the popular mid range RAM these days and you will likely be able to find it 1-2 years from now if you need to upgrade.

Sometimes manufactures may change the heatsink design, but if the actual RAM is the same it will work fine. For example, about 5 years back I bought some Team Group RAM (yellow heat spreader) because it was the cheapest option. Fast forward to last year, I wanted to add another set. But that color was sold out, so I bought the same set with blue heat spreaders. Upon arriving I noticed they changed the heat-spreader design completely (Newegg did not update their website pictures). The specs and serial numbers were identical, but rather than a "Y" in the serial number it had a "B". Newegg decided not to offer a refund, so I decided to try it. Clockings and timings were the same across both sets, and I had zero issues.

But again, I suggest getting a brand that will be in stock frequently (Corsair, G Skill). That way any possible issues will be minimal. I was lucky that the the silent upgrade was just to the heat spreader.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Really?? I find this hard to believe.... some single-tower heat sinks come with push-pull fans and some serious custom loop builds do the same with radiators. Surely the difference is more than 1-2C?


If they come with it then I would certainly use it. But I wouldn't pay $15-20 for an extra fan otherwise. In all the benchmarks I have seen, the difference between the second fan is typically 1-2C. My own casual testing seems to have shown similar results. If you want to save cash, get a $35 Cryorig or $40 Reeven. But if you decide to add a second PWM fan (~ $15-20) the performance difference is so small that it isn't worth it. Often times manufactures will sell versions with a single fan or a double fan for $20 extra. If you have that option, I'd opt for the cheaper cooler. There are a couple of reviews with the Cryorig that add a second fan, some with Hyper 212s with a second fan, and other mid range coolers. It really isn't worth it. If that 1-2C is the difference between your PC throttling or not, then you likely have some airflow problems, a damaged heatsink, or have improperly seated it.

For average use, get a decent $35-40 cooler. If you really need to push the OC to the limit, then spend a bit more and get a Noctua or water cooler. I can't comment on how a second push/pull fan will help a water type cooler because I don't use them and never looked into them very much.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Again, "notable amount of money" for a good case fan would be relative. For a budget build, yes.... for latest K-series chips and 1st/2nd tier GPUs, not so much.


I was referring to the price relative to the cooler. A $5 jump in price is okay for the slight performance improvement. A $20 price increase for a cooler that would otherwise cost $30 is fairly notable when the performance difference is so small.

Originally Posted by - Ice

I would argue that to CLEAN your heatsink, you'd want to take it out of the PC case, give the fans a good wipe, and give the fins a good blast of air. Otherwise, you're just relocating the dust to other parts of your PC smile


This works decently for quick cleaning. You can turn a vacuum on and hold it above the case and it will suck out most of the dust that a can of air will dislodge. You will need a central, hose style vacuum for this which I seemingly forget many people do not have. As long as you keep the hose 6+ inches away you don't have to worry about discharges or similar. But yes, pulling your parts out for a proper cleaning every now and then is more ideal. Typically I remove the GPU and some of the fans to clean but leave the CPU heat sink on but every now and then I do a proper cleaning (case, drive bays, ect.).

Originally Posted by - Ice

+1 to this! My first SSD is a Crucial M4 which is still going strong while the Samsung I purchased after it went kaput just after the warranty expired frown


People always seem to overlook Crucial for some reason. They are slower but when you get a decent deal they can be a bit cheaper. I am look for size + low price. In general a middle of the road SATA SSD will be fast enough for day to day tasks. I like to keep my OS, all programs, all games and whatnot on my SSDs. I am okay on the desktop from (500GB + 750GB) but would like another for my laptop.

#4397269 - 12/29/17 01:49 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Ah, I did not know that... but then again, I always opted to buy kits anyway. I thought that aside from the timings/freq/etc., there was some other parameter that made sticks compatible and therefore buying two individual sticks does not guarantee compatibility. Have you OC'ed your RAM?

As for the fan, if you don't think a second fan on a single-tower heatsink will help, I wonder how you would justify your "add an extra fan to the case" recommendation? Consider that the second fan is RIGHT THERE on what is essentially the CPU heatsink and you say it'll only do a 1-2C difference, what difference do you think it would give if the second fan was all the way on the front of the case?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
This works decently for quick cleaning. You can turn a vacuum on and hold it above the case and it will suck out most of the dust that a can of air will dislodge.

1. I have asthma so dust floating around isn't a good thing... even if the vacuum will suck out most of the dust, there will still be a LOT in the air.
2. Even without any health issues, you're just relocating the dust into other parts of your PC case or your room, to return to your PC at a later date.
3. Even if you use up all of the compressed air in a can, your fan blades will still be dusty.
4. For some reason, I find cleaning my PC relaxing.... same thing for cable tidying.... I guess this is equivalent to the Japanese art of raising a bonsai tree or making patterns in sand? smile


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
People always seem to overlook Crucial for some reason. They are slower but when you get a decent deal they can be a bit cheaper. I am look for size + low price. In general a middle of the road SATA SSD will be fast enough for day to day tasks. I like to keep my OS, all programs, all games and whatnot on my SSDs. I am okay on the desktop from (500GB + 750GB) but would like another for my laptop.

Bah.... the speed differences between SSDs are not worth the worry over it, IMHO. Who stands by their rig timing boot ups and program loads and game loads? Maybe the first time you switch over from HDD to SSD, sure. I only stick with Samsung because I like the idea of them making their own chips and I opted to buy a couple of NVMe drives "just because." It's a good motivator to pick up more overtime shifts!! smile


- Ice
#4397293 - 12/29/17 06:31 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Ah, I did not know that... but then again, I always opted to buy kits anyway. I thought that aside from the timings/freq/etc., there was some other parameter that made sticks compatible and therefore buying two individual sticks does not guarantee compatibility.


As long as it is the same RAM you should be fine. Even a single series of RAM uses different manufacturers. Corsair LPX 3000 uses SK Hynx while the faster RAM uses Samsung. But be aware of silent revisions. I'm not sure if a RAM manufacture will do that, but it may be possible. That is why I would always prefer to get extra now rather than get some and upgrade it later. Until last year I used 8GB of RAM and never had a single issue with it. But if you plan on keeping your RAM for 3-4 years, I'd rather get 16GB to be on the safe side. I don't feel like citing Star Citizen because of its awkward development cycle, but I believe the developers are insisting than the final builds will require more than 8GB of RAM.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Have you OC'ed your RAM?


I don't. Even though Ryzen benefits from it more than Intel I have no plans to. I do modest OCs because I prefer stability over the the minor performance jump. I don't see OCed RAM helping me much.

Originally Posted by - Ice

As for the fan, if you don't think a second fan on a single-tower heatsink will help, I wonder how you would justify your "add an extra fan to the case" recommendation? Consider that the second fan is RIGHT THERE on what is essentially the CPU heatsink and you say it'll only do a 1-2C difference, what difference do you think it would give if the second fan was all the way on the front of the case?


You don't have to take my word for it, there are a few reviews out there which came to such conclusions. It seems like the primary fan (the push) does the majority of the work and the pulling fan is fairly worthless. Case fans are different because they bring in cold air and allow the ambient temps of the case interior to become cooler and help cancel out the hotter air the components pump out. Personally after casual testing I have found the following to be the most important:

1) Cool ambient temps (no brainier)
2) Coolers that are better than bottom of the barrel
3) Cool case ambient temps (good air flow)
4) The higher end coolers

As an example, my older Corsair 550D (with the same components) made the CPU reach temps around 10-12C higher in the summer. I had 4x 120mm case fans in the front, but airflow was inhibited by HDD/SSDs & DVD/CD drives. The second CPU cooler fan did little to nothing in terms of temps (I could not measure a difference via software monitoring). Swapping to a Fractal Design Define S (re-used one of the old Corsair fans, pulled a Noctua 120mm I used as an exhaust fan in the 550D, it came with a front/rear 140mm) dropped the temps by a large margin. Previously the GTX 1070 got notably noisy (but not blower bad) in the summer at load (was practically silent in the winter). With the Fractal Design Define S the noise levels dropped to very low levels even at load during the summer.

Unless you need a CD/DVD drive, I would suggest getting any case design that simply removes them. Knockout any SSD/DVD bays; most new cases mount them on the rear of the motherboard tray.

Originally Posted by - Ice

1. I have asthma so dust floating around isn't a good thing... even if the vacuum will suck out most of the dust, there will still be a LOT in the air.
2. Even without any health issues, you're just relocating the dust into other parts of your PC case or your room, to return to your PC at a later date.
3. Even if you use up all of the compressed air in a can, your fan blades will still be dusty.
4. For some reason, I find cleaning my PC relaxing.... same thing for cable tidying.... I guess this is equivalent to the Japanese art of raising a bonsai tree or making patterns in sand? smile


I need to get back to cleaning my PC. I've gotten lazy these past few months...

Originally Posted by - Ice

Bah.... the speed differences between SSDs are not worth the worry over it, IMHO. Who stands by their rig timing boot ups and program loads and game loads? Maybe the first time you switch over from HDD to SSD, sure. I only stick with Samsung because I like the idea of them making their own chips and I opted to buy a couple of NVMe drives "just because." It's a good motivator to pick up more overtime shifts!! smile


I have what I believe is a Samsung NVMe SSD in my new laptop. Boot times are impressive. I can go from pressing the power button, entering my password and clicking and loading Firefox within 15 seconds. Keep in mind it is a new OS with only the basic apps running at startup, including the bloaty Mcafee antivirus. I think that has to do more with optimized laptop BIOS; it seems that gaming motherboards have a longer power on time. Probably so we can press the necessary button in time to enter the BIOS to configure out stuff. I know many come with "fast boot" options but I never bothered. Boot time is still around a minute or less.


I also typed out a longer reply but deleted it, because it probably isn't helpful to continue on from earlier. But I figured there is one small bit you may find interesting. I'll drop it without context because maybe the results themselves are interesting?:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I can't believe that cooler is only $40. If only they offered it with something aside from "ugly yellow".

[Linked Image]

#4397370 - 12/29/17 09:55 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
As long as it is the same RAM you should be fine.

Yes, buy one stick now, one stick later and if parameters are the same, then they will work fine.... but are they working the same as a proper RAM kit? You'll get 16GB RAM total, sure, but I always thought the kits would work better. Minimal improvements, to be fair, as RAM improvements aren't really something to write home about, but what I'm getting at is that two single stick performance and one RAM kit performance would be different, right? I'll need to see what I can dig up on this.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I don't. Even though Ryzen benefits from it more than Intel I have no plans to. I do modest OCs because I prefer stability over the the minor performance jump. I don't see OCed RAM helping me much.

I suspect that's where RAM kits would work?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You don't have to take my word for it, there are a few reviews out there which came to such conclusions.

Sure.... links?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Case fans are different because they bring in cold air and allow the ambient temps of the case interior to become cooler and help cancel out the hotter air the components pump out.

So your argument is instead of ventilating the actual component that helps dissipate temperature, it is better to simply lower the case ambient temp???


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I have what I believe is a Samsung NVMe SSD in my new laptop. Boot times are impressive.

So would be the case if you had a SATA SSD. There will be differences in boot times, yes, but not something you will notice unless you time it with a stopwatch. For the price of a SSD vs. NVMe....


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I also typed out a longer reply but deleted it, because it probably isn't helpful to continue on from earlier.

But despite that, you still continue on....


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
But I figured there is one small bit you may find interesting. I'll drop it without context because maybe the results themselves are interesting?:

Oh wow... the Noctua NH-D15 runs cooler and quieter than the Reeven Justice. smile


Tell you what.... go ahead and watch this video and note a few points afterwards....




1. Premium fans do make a difference.... although not in a price-performance standpoint which wasn't my contention in the first place. The Noctua is a premium cooler and does come with better performance than other coolers.... although not in a price-performance standpoint. If this were the case, we'd be looking at Hyper 212s which doesn't bring the temps down as much but is awesome value-for-money for the performance it brings and the price point it's at. Read HERE to see if the NH-D15 is rated at 100%, then the Hyper 212 EVO is rated at 256% in performance-per-dollar. If we're arguing on those lines, then I'm quite sure there are CPUs out there that can compete with a 8600K in a price-performance standpoint. The simple fact that we're considering a 8600K and with a budget that allows great parts, why skimp on the CPU cooler?

2. Better cooling and better noise performance...



2:44 - a lot of things in the modding world aren't exactly "worth it" in the price-performance sense
3:18 - if you're on a tight budget and trying to build a gaming rig... you should probably just focus on your core components

But clearly the OP is not on a tight budget. Please stop digging up the dead horse only to beat it again.... unless what you're saying that you're finally agreeing with me in which case, go right ahead! biggrin


- Ice
#4397372 - 12/29/17 10:03 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
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BTW, read HERE to see a 3-4C difference under stock clocks or 2C difference under OC for your Reeven Justice.... for the price of an $8 fan, I'd pay for that improvement.... but then again, this falls along my build philosophy...


- Ice
#4397585 - 12/31/17 08:28 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

Yes, buy one stick now, one stick later and if parameters are the same, then they will work fine.... but are they working the same as a proper RAM kit?


They should. But, that is again why it is just to buy what you need now. I'd say if you plan on keeping the platform or RAM for 4-5 years you may want to consider getting 16GB. RAM can be finicky but my understanding is that it isn't nearly as bad as it used to be.

Originally Posted by - Ice

I suspect that's where RAM kits would work?


One RAM kit vs two identical RAM kits? In that scenario I wouldn't know.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Sure.... links?


Sure, you literally just posted one in the next post:

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

Typically within 1-2C. It comes down to the price; if you can save a notable amount of money and you have a case with good airflow in the first place I would skip the second fan


I'd say that qualifies for "typically within 1-2C". I found similar results for the some of the Cryorig offerings a few months back as well as some other models. It seems to be within 1-2C typically, sometimes as much as 3C. But I've yet to see it make as much as 4-6C of a difference.

Originally Posted by - Ice

So your argument is instead of ventilating the actual component that helps dissipate temperature, it is better to simply lower the case ambient temp???


No. Reread this:

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

1) Cool ambient temps (no brainier)
2) Coolers that are better than bottom of the barrel
3) Cool case ambient temps (good air flow)
4) The higher end coolers


In general, coolers that are "better than bottom of the barrel" do a better job of ventilating the component itself. I did rank that above cooler case ambient temps. That should answer your question, but to go into more detail:

Priority should be to get a decent mid range cooler for a CPU (and GPU). The second is good airflow / case ambient temps. The advantages of a high end Noctua or similar will be minimized if your airflow is terrible. Using my own builds as examples, merely swapping to a case with better ambient temps dropped temps by 7-10C on the GPU and around 6-7C on the CPU. That difference is roughly the same as a Noctua DH-15 vs a Cryorig H7. Obviously you can get similar CPU temperature results with a better CPU cooler with mediocre airflow, but if you had to prioritize one it is better to get the lower ambient case temps as that will help the GPU as well. Unlike top of the line CPU coolers which do cost a bit more than a mid range, you can get a mid range case with good airflow at lower prices. And they will typically come with some decent fans pre-installed fans which even out the value compared to bottom of the barrel cases. For example, I paid $65 shipped for my Define S.

Then there is the dusk aspect. In general, the more intake you have (for lower case ambient temps) the less dust there will be. If you have too much exhausting pull you will accumulate more dust in the case. So if you have a powerful CPU cooler with 2x 140mms and a 140mm to exhaust, but poor intake airflow (and therefore poor case ambient temps) the end result will be a more dusty experience and likely worse temps overall. This is a very basic video; it isn't the greatest and shows extremes but may provide a decent example for what I am referring to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh6F2eccMec

As I mentioned, good case ambient temps are more important overall than having a top of the line CPU cooler or adding a second fan to a CPU cooler. The best solution is fulfill all of these requirements. But, in general points two and three will be sufficient for the average gamer. Point one is not always controllable.

Originally Posted by - Ice

So would be the case if you had a SATA SSD. There will be differences in boot times, yes, but not something you will notice unless you time it with a stopwatch. For the price of a SSD vs. NVMe....


Probably. It wasn't much of a factor in my purchasing decision.

Originally Posted by - Ice

But despite that, you still continue on....


Are you sure about that? I was replying to another member and mentioned CPU air + heatsink coolers, and directly quoted me. You decided to get right back at it:

Originally Posted by - Ice

Really?? I find this hard to believe.... some single-tower heat sinks come with push-pull fans and some serious custom loop builds do the same with radiators. Surely the difference is more than 1-2C?


You start with casually disapproving, and like clockwork try and derail with other parameters I never discussed. Custom loops & radiators in this case. And then you will continually attempt to contort any point I made. For example:

Originally Posted by - Ice

As for the fan, if you don't think a second fan on a single-tower heatsink will help...


The intentional contortion continues. I did say it will will reduce temperatures:

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

In general the difference is not very big between one or two fans (I am talking about CPU air + heatsink coolers). Typically within 1-2C. It comes down to the price; if you can save a notable amount of money and you have a case with good airflow in the first place I would skip the second fan.


I said there is a difference, but it will not be very big and be within 1-2C. Which, ironically, you proved I was right when trying to discredit me. Moving onto the rest of the quote here, I said if you can save a notable amount of money you may as well skip the extra fan. You skipped over the entire value/performance point which was critical to that suggestion. I've already explained what "notable amount" is. I'll repeat it here:

If you're spending $25 on a lower end cooler such as a Hyper 212, spending an extra $15-20 for an extra fan isn't worth it. You will get better performance with a better cooler design that only comes with a single fan, such as an H7 or Justice, which will cost less or the same after the extra fan. Merely throwing on a second fan on a low end heatsink will be a poor use of money. But, if the price difference is so small and you have a mid range cooler it may be worthwhile.

Originally Posted by - Ice

I wonder how you would justify your "add an extra fan to the case" recommendation? Consider that the second fan is RIGHT THERE on what is essentially the CPU heatsink and you say it'll only do a 1-2C difference, what difference do you think it would give if the second fan was all the way on the front of the case?


With some research on your part, it looks like you found out that there is indeed a 2C difference like my research had found. Yes, I said 1-2C and those benchmarks show 2-3C. It will vary between benchmarks and particular models (I've seen some with only 1C difference). It is far cry from a large 5-9C difference.

Originally Posted by - Ice

For a budget build, yes.... for latest K-series chips and 1st/2nd tier GPUs, not so much.


If you insist on continuing on, do tell us the reasoning for this. Keep in mind, you are now talking about 1 vs 2 fans on various heatsinks. Tell us why a K series Intel CPU and a 1st/2nd tier GPU will benefit from a second heat sink fan that will drop temps by 2-3C.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Oh wow... the Noctua NH-D15 runs cooler and quieter than the Reeven Justice. smile


1.33C difference, in a synthetic benchmark that stress tests CPUs and makes them run hotter than any game or sim would. Are you telling me that 1.33C is worth a 100% price increase ($40 Justice vs $80+ NH-D15), the extra weight and size issues the larger cooler may introduce? Will it allow the CPU to clock higher? Will it make the CPU last longer? I'm looking for something more substantial than the following:

Originally Posted by - Ice

It may not improve performance at average OCs, yes, but I'm more comfortable knowing that my CPU is nice and happy and cool. I'm not saying your reasoning is wrong, I'm just saying this is my philosophy in this regard.


It seems like you're merely trying to justify your purchase, and/or you have the philosophy that more money = better. You've yet to provide any concrete evidence for how a ~ 2-4C difference on a CPU well within the safe operating limits will help in any useful way. It is nice to have, but it isn't required for the following:

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks.


Do tell us how that small difference will be beneficial. Will a CPU that hits 65C under load in games die within 5 years where as one that runs at 62C won't? Will the CPU run faster? People have been running their highly OCed Sandybridge CPUs on what would be considered a low end cooler (Hyper 212) for 6-7 years. And that is fairly more stressing on the CPU both power and temperature wise than a modest OC.

If you can provide something concrete I'd be happy to learn something new.

Sound wise, 35 to 38 dba is hardly noticeable. Especially if you are gaming. I doubt you can hear the difference unless you use an open case position your head next to it while under load.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Tell you what.... go ahead and watch this video and note a few points afterwards....




Told me what I knew. The temperature difference isn't enough to make a critically hot PC run well within safe operating temperatures, and the small decrease (2-3C) won't allow the user to obtain clockings they would not have achieved with the other fans. Likewise, the dba difference isn't enough to be noticeable by humans in normal environments. But again, that is contorting my original point. What did I actually say?

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

A good higher airflow case typically comes with enough fans, and a decent $8-10 120mm/140mm to fill the last remaining slot in the front is all that is needed. You can snag Arctic Cooling fans for very cheap and they will do the job and last a good 5-7 years in general.


I did say decent fans and mentioned Arctic Cooling. NZXT does not make fans on par with AC, Noctua, ect. Even then, the real world difference wasn't noticeable in the video you linked to. The main advantage of AC or Noctua is they are of better build quality than lower end brands. Noctuas may edge out in terms of life, but they do cost 100-150% more on average. And AC fans tend to last 5-7 years which is fairly long.

Originally Posted by - Ice

1. Premium fans do make a difference....


They do, but that difference is too small to enable any real advantage over the stock ones (faster clockings, preventing throttling, reducing the noise in a way humans can hear). At least, that is according to the video you provided. You do not need top of the line cooling for a modest OC. $200 on case fans for a mere 2-3C is a poor investment choice. Clearly, as the video you posted shows, even a modest OC will be perfectly stable with lesser case fans.

Originally Posted by - Ice

although not in a price-performance standpoint which wasn't my contention in the first place.


Thank you for setting the parameters people must discuss things in again. It is lovely how you quote my points and then attempt to invalidate them because you decided to put certain parameters into place that I was never talking about. Remember it was you, not I, who quoted my post initially. I was always suggesting a build that will get the OP a modest OC while saving money if possible.

This isn't the first time you've done this. For example:

Originally Posted by - Ice

CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks. I would only bother with the large Noctuas or water cooling if you intended on squeezing every last MHZ out of your overclock, and by reading your replies in this thread, I do not think you will be doing that.


You know I was not referring to a single type of cooler. Yet to continue to invalidate anything I have to say regarding any CPU cooler or benchmark by trying to make it NH-D15 vs Hyper 212 argument:

Originally Posted by - Ice

Your examples cited a Noctua NH-U14S, a cooler I've never talked about. Single-tower, single-fan..... I'm talking about the Noctua NH-D15, two towers, two fans.


You are, I am not. I never was.

Originally Posted by - Ice

You recognized this distinction earlier in your post ( 2x heatsink / 2x fan) but then you ignore it to prove your point? Fail.


Only because you keep bringing it up (as well as the Hyper 212).

Originally Posted by - Flogger23m

If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary.


Referring to a modest OC. You have yet to prove that wrong...

I even went on to mention the Hyper 212 is a fairly low end cooler these days in my second post:

Originally Posted by - Flogger23m

The Hyper 212 is also a bit outdated. The Cryorig offerings as an example outpace it performance wise, and can be had as cheap as $30.


But you keep bringing that cooler up for some reason?

Apparently you were stuck 5 years in the past and didn't realize what was considered a mid range cooler these days, or the performance they can bring for the price. Once again this has always been my stance:

Originally Posted by - Flogger23m

CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks.


Your best counter to that so far has been "keeping your CPU happy" and this epic strawman:

Originally Posted by - Ice

Simply put, less heat = less wear and if I can get better cooling at similar noise levels, why not?


Yes, 1-2C is better. Not $40-50 better compared to a Justice. If you can prove to us that 2-5C makes a difference in CPU life, when the temperatures are well within the safe operating limits, do let us know.

Originally Posted by - Ice

The Noctua is a premium cooler and does come with better performance than other coolers.... although not in a price-performance standpoint.


You keep missing the point, possibly intentionally?

Originally Posted by - Ice

If this were the case, we'd be looking at Hyper 212s...


Please not this again!

Originally Posted by - Ice

The simple fact that we're considering a 8600K and with a budget that allows great parts, why skimp on the CPU cooler?


What does it gain you? Better CPU performance? Longer CPU life? You're still hung up on this argument, but you've yet to provide any evidence for why a mid range cooler is "skimping". Tell us how a mid range cooler will be insufficient for the 8600K? Even with a modest OC?

Originally Posted by - Ice

3:18 - if you're on a tight budget and trying to build a gaming rig... you should probably just focus on your core components


Interestingly, I suggested the same line of thought in my first post. biggrin

Originally Posted by - Ice

But clearly the OP is not on a tight budget.


... but saving money would be preferable. He will likely benefit more from spending the extra $40-50 on a top of the line CPU cooler and $150-200 on Notcua case fans on an extra 1TB SSD.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Please stop digging up the dead horse only to beat it again...


You shouldn't have replied with your failed attempt to derail my suggestions again with that radiator comment.

Originally Posted by - Ice

. unless what you're saying that you're finally agreeing with me in which case, go right ahead! biggrin


Ironically, when you finally do start posting external links and put some research into it, you end up proving my point. I'm sure if you looked more into CPUs, modest OCs and mid range coolers you will see my original post was fairly on the mark. But if you can prove me wrong, and show us a performance or CPU life difference between 3-5C when you are well within safe operating temperatures then do so because I'd love to learn more.

Originally Posted by - Ice

for the price of an $8 fan, I'd pay for that improvement....


Is an extra Reeven Justice fan only $8? If so that is better than most other brands.

Originally Posted by - Ice

but then again, this falls along my build philosophy...



Which is:

If it is marginally better, small enough to produce no practical difference, then it is worth pursing at all costs.

Do I have that right? biggrin

#4397606 - 12/31/17 01:43 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Oh my God, Flogger. You can't even do quotes properly!! Let me narrow it down so you can find your way again.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
As for the fan, if you don't think a second fan on a single-tower heatsink will help, I wonder how you would justify your "add an extra fan to the case" recommendation? Consider that the second fan is RIGHT THERE on what is essentially the CPU heatsink and you say it'll only do a 1-2C difference, what difference do you think it would give if the second fan was all the way on the front of the case?

You don't have to take my word for it, there are a few reviews out there which came to such conclusions.

I agree with you that adding a 2nd fan for a push-pull config isn't very efficient. However, I think that if a buyer were to add a 2nd fan, it would still be more efficient to put it on the cooler than just putting it on the case. Your contention was that it's better to put it on the case.... and "you don't have to take my word for it".... so sure! Where are your links to these reviews that show putting a fan on the case is better than doing a push-pull config?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
Sure.... links?

Sure, you literally just posted one in the next post:

See? You missed the point again. I wasn't asking for push-pull efficiency proof when I asked you for links, I'm asking you for links to reviews that show putting a fan in a case (ie, adding to what the case already has and therefore increasing airflow) is better than setting up a push-pull?


Also, do try to understand that we're down this route simply because I'm entertaining a point you're trying to make. I clearly have no horse in this race --- my recommendation was for a Noctua NH-D15, a two-tower, two-fan setup. Whether you prove your case (fan for airflow is better than fan for push-pull) or not, it is only new knowledge (or not) for me and doesn't involve anything I was discussing before.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
No. Reread this:
Originally Posted by Flogger23m

1) Cool ambient temps (no brainier)
2) Coolers that are better than bottom of the barrel
3) Cool case ambient temps (good air flow)
4) The higher end coolers
Priority should be to get a decent mid range cooler for a CPU (and GPU). The second is good airflow / case ambient temps.

The present Flogger can't even agree with the past Flogger. You say priority is a mid-range cooler then airflow/ambient temps..... but your list clearly has it the other way around. See why it's so hard to argue with you when you're even arguing with yourself?? biggrin biggrin biggrin


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
But despite that, you still continue on....

Are you sure about that? I was replying to another member and mentioned CPU air + heatsink coolers, and directly quoted me. You decided to get right back at it:

Then you really, really, REALLY need to work on your communication, writing, and quoting skills. Your entire post had quotes from me and therefore, you were talking to me. If your " also typed out a longer reply but deleted it, because it probably isn't helpful to continue on from earlier. But I figured there is one small bit you may find interesting. I'll drop it without context because maybe the results themselves are interesting?:" line was aimed at someone else, please show me where the hell was I supposed to get that information from that line, considering you've been quoting me and responding to my point immediately prior to that line?



Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I've already explained what "notable amount" is. I'll repeat it here:
If you're spending $25 on a lower end cooler such as a Hyper 212, spending an extra $15-20 for an extra fan isn't worth it.

I love how you can appreciate "notable amount" in your $25 cooler and $15-20 fan example but you can't appreciate the other end of that spectrum with a £250 CPU + £110 motherboard... then a £22 cooler.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Quote
Your examples cited a Noctua NH-U14S, a cooler I've never talked about. Single-tower, single-fan..... I'm talking about the Noctua NH-D15, two towers, two fans.

You are, I am not. I never was.

Try to follow the discussion, present Flogger. I never said you talked about NH-D15.... however, past Flogger tried talking about NH-U14S and how it compared to his "cheaper coolers" despite me never talking about the NH-U14S. Proper fail.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Quote
You recognized this distinction earlier in your post ( 2x heatsink / 2x fan) but then you ignore it to prove your point? Fail.

Only because you keep bringing it up (as well as the Hyper 212).

Sigh....


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Yes, 1-2C is better. Not $40-50 better compared to a Justice. If you can prove to us that 2-5C makes a difference in CPU life, when the temperatures are well within the safe operating limits, do let us know.

Flogger, are you aware that to participate in discussions and debates, a required skill is the ability to follow the argument? My point is that heat is the enemy of electronics. Do you dispute that? If yes, then show me where heat and electronics are good buddies. If no, then we go forward.

If heat is the enemy of electronics, then the cooler the component runs, the better, yes? So why run at 72C when you can run at 68C or whatever lower temps?

Now your contention is that the extra 2-5C does not make a difference.... or more accurately, the temps from a mid-range cooler and the temps from a high-end cooler does not make a difference. Is that a fair statement? Now please show me the proof of this. YOU claimed that the high-end coolers provided no extra utility. YOU argued that the few degrees difference does not matter. Therefore, YOU show me the proof. You have a knack of flipping statements around and you were unsuccessful in doing so in previous threads, you won't be doing that here either.

Do try to follow along and understand why the burden of proof is on you.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Your best counter to that so far has been "keeping your CPU happy" and this epic strawman:
Originally Posted by - Ice
Simply put, less heat = less wear and if I can get better cooling at similar noise levels, why not?

LOL.... "less heat = less wear" is a strawman? If you would be so kind as to explain why/how? Is the statement true or not? Is the statement not the reason why we have radiators and coolers and thermal compounds and heatsinks in the first place?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
The simple fact that we're considering a 8600K and with a budget that allows great parts, why skimp on the CPU cooler?

What does it gain you? Better CPU performance? Longer CPU life? You're still hung up on this argument, but you've yet to provide any evidence for why a mid range cooler is "skimping". Tell us how a mid range cooler will be insufficient for the 8600K? Even with a modest OC?

Going 'round in circles now. Read the thread again. And I don't appreciate you, yet again, putting words in my mouth.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
3:18 - if you're on a tight budget and trying to build a gaming rig... you should probably just focus on your core components

Interestingly, I suggested the same line of thought in my first post.

Still failing at following along.... tell me, is the OP on a tight budget??


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
... but saving money would be preferable. He will likely benefit more from spending the extra $40-50 on a top of the line CPU cooler and $150-200 on Notcua case fans on an extra 1TB SSD.

First part --- not really. The OP already said he was willing to spend XXX amount of money, and even then, with wiggle room. With his last build spec, we were well under XXX.
Second part --- never talked about $150-200 on case fans. That was the video. Try to distinguish which is which.

And again, with the current build spec and the budget, the OP can get the top of the line cooler AND a 1TB SSD.


Originally Posted by malibu43
Actually, unless there's something wrong with that first $1070 option I linked, I would probably just add a 27" monitor and maybe up the GPU to whatever budget allows... Anything beyond that, I'm clearly just picking more expensive stuff hoping it's better... biggrin

See? It helps when you read the posts in the thread. The OP chose the $1070 option, but was still willing to spend more to get a 27" monitor and to upgrade his GPU as long as it fits in the budget, which according to the first post, is $1500. I'm sure we can fit the extra $40-50 for a better cooler. Looking at his spec page, his cooler is around $35 and the NH-D15 is around $67, so that's +$32. Not exactly breaking the budget, are we?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You shouldn't have replied with your failed attempt to derail my suggestions again with that radiator comment.

Says the guy who used a NH-U14S to prove his point against a guy who is talking about a NH-D15......


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Ironically, when you finally do start posting external links and put some research into it, you end up proving my point.

I think you've now lost track on which point belongs to whom. If you mean that I've proven your 1-2C point, then fine.... but as above, that wasn't what I was asking anyway but rather push-pull vs. case fan setup. On the other hands, the images and links you've posted did prove that my Noctua NH-D15 is cooler and more silent than your mid-range offerings. Thanks!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I'm sure if you looked more into CPUs, modest OCs and mid range coolers you will see my original post was fairly on the mark. But if you can prove me wrong, and show us a performance or CPU life difference between 3-5C when you are well within safe operating temperatures then do so because I'd love to learn more.

Just because you've inadvertently done my research for me does not mean I'm in any way obligated to do the same for you. Good luck!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Which is:
If it is marginally better, small enough to produce no practical difference, then it is worth pursing at all costs.
Do I have that right?

Again, I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. You're either being rude or just fail at comprehension; either way, you're not doing yourself any favors.

My build philosophy is clearly stated above for everyone to see. Trying to re-word it for your strawman is just grasping for straws. (Hmmm.... unintended pun there...)




I do have to apologize.... at the start of this thread, I did intend to narrow it down but I think it may still be more than I intended it to be. I've stopped responding line-by-line and instead just responded to key points. I hope you have a better time following the conversation this time around.


- Ice
#4397649 - 12/31/17 04:59 PM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
although not in a price-performance standpoint which wasn't my contention in the first place.

Thank you for setting the parameters people must discuss things in again. It is lovely how you quote my points and then attempt to invalidate them because you decided to put certain parameters into place that I was never talking about. Remember it was you, not I, who quoted my post initially. I was always suggesting a build that will get the OP a modest OC while saving money if possible.

Setting the parameters?? Not my fault you can't understand what you've read. This is from my VERY FIRST reply to you in this thread....

Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Flogger23m
CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks. I would only bother with the large Noctuas or water cooling if you intended on squeezing every last MHZ out of your overclock, and by reading your replies in this thread, I do not think you will be doing that.

Might well be the case, but spending £250+ on a CPU and maybe another £100 on the motherboard and you pair it with a £25 cooler? Something's not right with that picture.

Even if you're sitting at stock clocks and a £25 cooler can keep it below critical temps, why run at a higher temp when you can buy a better cooler and run at cooler temps? If money is really, really, REALLY tight, maybe skimp on the cooler and upgrade later. But if that were the case, why buy a £250+ 8600K to sit on stock clocks and not buy say an i3 8100? Both are 3.60GHz clock speed but one is £250+ and the other is £110, a £140 saving. So the assumption when buying a K-series chip is that the user will OC and even if he does not go to the bleeding edge of his silicon lottery, lower temps are still better temps.

It's also interesting how you've referenced that very response a few times in your last reply, but still didn't grasp the concept in bold.


- Ice
#4397718 - 01/01/18 12:36 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,168
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,168
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Oh my God, Flogger. You can't even do quotes properly!! Let me narrow it down so you can find your way again.


I made a mistake in my formatting. You got me! pitchafit

Originally Posted by - Ice

I agree with you that adding a 2nd fan for a push-pull config isn't very efficient.


Then we agree!

Originally Posted by - Ice

However, I think that if a buyer were to add a 2nd fan, it would still be more efficient to put it on the cooler than just putting it on the case.


You've proven the difference is minimal, not enough to make a practical difference.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Your contention was that it's better to put it on the case.... and "you don't have to take my word for it".... so sure!


Not what I said.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

In general the difference is not very big between one or two fans (I am talking about CPU air + heatsink coolers). Typically within 1-2C.


You reply:

Originally Posted by - Ice

Really?? I find this hard to believe....


You ended up proving yourself wrong. End of that discussion.

For more context:

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

It comes down to the price; if you can save a notable amount of money and you have a case with good airflow in the first place I would skip the second fan.


If your case has poor airflow your CPU/GPU temps will suffer. I never mentioned "CPU fan vs case fan". I said if you have a case fan with good airflow I would suggest skipping the extra CPU fan.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

Case fans are different because they bring in cold air and allow the ambient temps of the case interior to become cooler and help cancel out the hotter air the components pump out.


Again, responding to a sub argument you started (choosing between CPU fan vs case fans). But I think you will agree that good airflow (and a lot of case fans) is very important for keeping temps down. More than 1-3C of a second CPU fan will help. Again, I am sure if you put some research into it you'd come to the same conclusion that I have:

-Good case airflow will allow a CPU to run safe and cool to the point that the extra fan won't provide any practical advantages. Well, you've already agreed to the second part at least...

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

Where are your links to these reviews that show putting a fan on the case is better than doing a push-pull config?


I never stated that.

Originally Posted by - Ice

See? You missed the point again. I wasn't asking for push-pull efficiency proof when I asked you for links, I'm asking you for links to reviews that show putting a fan in a case (ie, adding to what the case already has and therefore increasing airflow) is better than setting up a push-pull?


I never said that.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

In general the difference is not very big between one or two fans (I am talking about CPU air + heatsink coolers). Typically within 1-2C. It comes down to the price; if you can save a notable amount of money and you have a case with good airflow in the first place I would skip the second fan.


Your response:

Originally Posted by - Ice

Again, "notable amount of money" for a good case fan would be relative.


What? I was not referring to case fans, I was referring to CPU fans...

Originally Posted by - Ice

The present Flogger can't even agree with the past Flogger. You say priority is a mid-range cooler then airflow/ambient temps..... but your list clearly has it the other way around. See why it's so hard to argue with you when you're even arguing with yourself?? biggrin biggrin biggrin


Now you're outright lying:

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

1) Cool ambient temps (no brainier)
2) Coolers that are better than bottom of the barrel
3) Cool case ambient temps (good air flow)

4) The higher end coolers


Yes, I did say mid-range coolers are of a higher priority than case ambient temps. Exactly as it is in my list. You're outright lying or didn't bother readying the entire list.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Then you really, really, REALLY need to work on your communication, writing, and quoting skills. Your entire post had quotes from me and therefore, you were talking to me. If your " also typed out a longer reply but deleted it, because it probably isn't helpful to continue on from earlier. But I figured there is one small bit you may find interesting. I'll drop it without context because maybe the results themselves are interesting?:" line was aimed at someone else, please show me where the hell was I supposed to get that information from that line, considering you've been quoting me and responding to my point immediately prior to that line?


It was aimed at you. You decided to get right back at it by quoting my post, dismissing my arguments (and then dropping them when you proved them right :D) outright lying, and again contorting any point I had made. Like the case fan vs CPU fan argument you started. I don't mind questioning my reasoning or even my sources, but each post of yours side steps the issues and props up new ones...

Originally Posted by - Ice

I love how you can appreciate "notable amount" in your $25 cooler and $15-20 fan example but you can't appreciate the other end of that spectrum with a £250 CPU + £110 motherboard... then a £22 cooler.


And you have let to show us what that is a problem. More side stepping? I suppose even one of your own sources proves you wrong but you won't admit it? biggrin

Originally Posted by - Ice

.... however, past Flogger tried talking about NH-U14S and how it compared to his "cheaper coolers" despite me never talking about the NH-U14S. Proper fail.


You're the one who quoted me. My argument has always been:

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks. I would only bother with the large Noctuas or water cooling if you intended on squeezing every last MHZ out of your overclock, and by reading your replies in this thread, I do not think you will be doing that.


If you only wanted to talk about your specific cooler of choice, then you should never have my argument, which was referring to mid range vs high end cooelrs in general. Keep in mind, the above quote is exactly what you quoted in post #4395769. Maybe you should try the following yourself:

Originally Posted by - Ice

...communication, writing, and quoting skills...


At the minimum you're employing a double standard, if not outright fabricating things (read above).

Originally Posted by - Ice

Sigh....


Your mistake

Originally Posted by - Ice

My point is that heat is the enemy of electronics. Do you dispute that?


The same strawman from earlier.

Originally Posted by - Ice

So why run at 72C when you can run at 68C or whatever lower temps?


Do show us what advantage this has. Higher operating clocks? A notable increase in CPU life? You have been side stepping the entire time.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Now please show me the proof of this.


Check the benchmark results you posted maybe? A mid range cooler came within 1.33C of a much more expensive cooler.

Originally Posted by - Ice

YOU claimed that the high-end coolers provided no extra utility. YOU argued that the few degrees difference does not matter. Therefore, YOU show me the proof.


I've already done that. You've even done it yourself. smile

Originally Posted by - Ice

You have a knack of flipping statements around and you were unsuccessful in doing so in previous threads, you won't be doing that here either.


Read above. You outright lied above. Insults, side stepping & making others prove fictional arguments is not how you have a discussion.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Do try to follow along and understand why the burden of proof is on you.


Burden of proof is on you. I've proved my points; if you want to counter them do the same.

Originally Posted by - Ice

LOL.... "less heat = less wear" is a strawman?


Originally Posted by - Merriam

a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted


Definition.

I never said less heat = less wear. But you keep bringing up that point because you cannot counter the following:

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks. I would only bother with the large Noctuas or water cooling if you intended on squeezing every last MHZ out of your overclock, and by reading your replies in this thread, I do not think you will be doing that.


Originally Posted by - Ice

Going 'round in circles now.


Try addressing the points and we'd get somewhere.

Originally Posted by - Ice

And I don't appreciate you, yet again, putting words in my mouth.


Might want to try that yourself. See above.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Still failing at following along.... tell me, is the OP on a tight budget??


Originally Posted by - malibu43

Less would be good too, as that makes it an easier sell to my wife.


I'm trying to save him money where possible. I think I've been following along just fine.

We've established the following:

- Mid range coolers can safely run a modest OC
- Mid range coolers are offer similar noise levels (differences are likely not noticeable to the human ear)

Points you originally were skeptical of.

Originally Posted by - Ice

First part --- not really. The OP already said he was willing to spend XXX amount of money, and even then, with wiggle room. With his last build spec, we were well under XXX.


This is not wrong, but he also specifically mentioned to save if possible. And if you can get the same practical results, why not save a bit?

Originally Posted by - Ice

Second part --- never talked about $150-200 on case fans. That was the video. Try to distinguish which is which.


Then why did you post it? If it wasn't bolstering an argument you were making by bother?

Originally Posted by - Ice

And again, with the current build spec and the budget, the OP can get the top of the line cooler AND a 1TB SSD.


But what will a top of the line cooler provide in terms of practical advantages? It will successfully spend more money (when the OP is looking to save if possible) but what will it accomplish? Yes, it will run 2-3C (or in the case of the Reeven, maybe less) cooler, but what practical advantage will that provide?

Originally Posted by - Ice

Not exactly breaking the budget, are we?


It won't, but what practical advantage will it bring to the table? I have also voiced my opinion that assembling yourself is more ideal because you have a larger selection of parts.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Says the guy who used a NH-U14S to prove his point against a guy who is talking about a NH-D15......


You shouldn't have quoted me, and then attempted to steer the conversation to the NH-D15 vs everything else. Because that was never my argument. Maybe you should go back to my original response to this thread and re-read what you quoted.

Originally Posted by - Ice

I think you've now lost track on which point belongs to whom. If you mean that I've proven your 1-2C point, then fine....


Hardly. You've even proven the following points of mine to be correct with your own links:

- An extra CPU fan will only provide around 1-2C lower temps
- A mid range cooler will be sufficient for a CPU even with a modest voltage bump

Originally Posted by - Ice

...but as above, that wasn't what I was asking anyway but rather push-pull vs. case fan setup.


Correct. What you were talking about, not me. For some reason you're shoving that argument into my mouth and are trying to make me prove it? What?

Originally Posted by - Ice

On the other hands, the images and links you've posted did prove that my Noctua NH-D15 is cooler and more silent than your mid-range offerings. Thanks!


That was painful to read, because I never claimed a mid range cooler performed better or quieter than an NH-D15. Again the imaginary arguments!

Originally Posted by - Ice

Just because you've inadvertently done my research for me does not mean I'm in any way obligated to do the same for you. Good luck!


A very common theme for you. You never post anything substantial, side step, and seldom backup your points.

Originally Posted by - Ice

Again, I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. My build philosophy is clearly stated above for everyone to see.


I know, I just summarized it for you. smile

Originally Posted by - Ice

I do have to apologize.... at the start of this thread, I did intend to narrow it down but I think it may still be more than I intended it to be. I've stopped responding line-by-line and instead just responded to key points. I hope you have a better time following the conversation this time around.


Reality - You haven't provided anything substantial. Your skepticism was proven to be off the mark in more than one way. As a result, you quickly dance over to another topic that was never being discussed "heat is the enemy of electronics, are you saying this is't true?!" and similar.

The few times you did ended up working in my favor, extra CPU fan having minimal effect as an example. If you can go back to the start and actually counter what you originally quoted:

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks. I would only bother with the large Noctuas or water cooling if you intended on squeezing every last MHZ out of your overclock, and by reading your replies in this thread, I do not think you will be doing that.


With your response being:

Originally Posted by - Ice

Might well be the case, but spending £250+ on a CPU and maybe another £100 on the motherboard and you pair it with a £25 cooler? Something's not right with that picture


Well do tell us what is wrong with that picture. Taking your cooler of choice as an example, comparing it to a Reveen Justice, I can't imagine the heat difference of 1.33C is enough to make the CPU last longer or achieve a higher clocking.

[Linked Image]

If you can't or don't want to explain why (with something substantial) then don't even bother replying. smile

#4397729 - 01/01/18 03:11 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Flogger23m]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I made a mistake in my formatting. You got me! pitchafit

Well, you need to do better otherwise confusion would ensue.... as we have already seen.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
Your contention was that it's better to put it on the case.... and "you don't have to take my word for it".... so sure!

Not what I said.

Sigh.... really? Here you go, present Flogger.... this is what past Flogger said:
Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You don't have to take my word for it, there are a few reviews out there which came to such conclusions. It seems like the primary fan (the push) does the majority of the work and the pulling fan is fairly worthless. Case fans are different because they bring in cold air and allow the ambient temps of the case interior to become cooler and help cancel out the hotter air the components pump out.

So sure... case fans bring in cold air.... now where is the review which shows this is beneficial over a push-pull configuration?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You ended up proving yourself wrong. End of that discussion.

1. That was like 5 posts ago.
2. I did not prove myself wrong. You seem to be confused about needing proof and actually being on the opposite camp. I needed proof, you showed it, I agree with you.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
If your case has poor airflow your CPU/GPU temps will suffer. I never mentioned "CPU fan vs case fan". I said if you have a case fan with good airflow I would suggest skipping the extra CPU fan.

OMG!! Since when were we talking about case airflow? We're talking about heatsinks. Stop adding more variables to confuse future Flogger!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Again, responding to a sub argument you started (choosing between CPU fan vs case fans). But I think you will agree that good airflow (and a lot of case fans) is very important for keeping temps down. More than 1-3C of a second CPU fan will help. Again, I am sure if you put some research into it you'd come to the same conclusion that I have:

-Good case airflow will allow a CPU to run safe and cool to the point that the extra fan won't provide any practical advantages. Well, you've already agreed to the second part at least...

A sub-argument that I started? LOL! Somebody clearly needs to review the thread. Somebody also needs to realize that airflow and case selection was never the subject of the argument; that was assumed to be adequate or at the very least, a constant variable. Any change in airflow or case selection would be assumed to affect both argument points (mid-range coolers vs. NH-D15) so stop trying this strawman.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Where are your links to these reviews that show putting a fan on the case is better than doing a push-pull config?

I never stated that.
I never said that.

Way to backpedal. Read above... starts with "You don't have to take my word for it"
We agree that the pull-fan does little.... but then you make a claim about case fans being different.... now show me the reviews that support this claim.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
What? I was not referring to case fans, I was referring to CPU fans...

What?? Show me a case fan that is specifically a case fan and show me a CPU fan that is specifically a CPU fan....


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Now you're outright lying:
Originally Posted by Flogger23m

1) Cool ambient temps (no brainier)
2) Coolers that are better than bottom of the barrel
3) Cool case ambient temps (good air flow)

4) The higher end coolers

Yes, I did say mid-range coolers are of a higher priority than case ambient temps. Exactly as it is in my list. You're outright lying or didn't bother readying the entire list.

Sorry, what was #1 on your list again??? Or have you now introduced a THIRD variable which is room air? So first we were talking about CPU coolers with a side-trip of single-tower coolers in push-only and push-pull config, then you add a variable of case airflow, and now you add a variable of room ambient temp? Let me see what past Flogger said:
Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Thank you for setting the parameters people must discuss things in again. It is lovely how you quote my points and then attempt to invalidate them because you decided to put certain parameters into place that I was never talking about.



Originally Posted by Flogger23m
It was aimed at you. You decided to get right back at it by quoting my post, dismissing my arguments (and then dropping them when you proved them right :D) outright lying, and again contorting any point I had made. Like the case fan vs CPU fan argument you started. I don't mind questioning my reasoning or even my sources, but each post of yours side steps the issues and props up new ones...

What? I'm confused now... you were replying to another member.... then you were replying to me? Please get your excuses straight in the future.

As for dropping topics, the only thing we agreed on was the 1-2C degree difference on a single-tower cooler in push-pull. You've yet to prove how adding a case fan is better than using that fan in push-pull. Sure, push-pull may only be 1-2C but maybe using that fan as a case fan will only add 0.5C in which case it's even MORE useless.... but you've not yet presented a review to prove either way.

It's quite rich for you to accuse me of lying when you can't even follow your own conversation, you confuse your points as mine (case fan vs CPU fan), you introduce a new parameter (push-pull), then introduce another new parameter (ROOM ambient air), and you celebrate winning that when you've never been honest about previous points (budget? NH-D15 performance?), and you keep trying to get me to do your research for you. Speaking of dropped points, where is your research?

I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth; I don't appreciate being called a liar. Do you have the maturity to admit to your errors, concede the points you've lost, and talk like a grown up? I've no issues conceding on the push-pull issue; like I said, I never had a dog/horse in that race anyway as my recommendation is a two-tower, two-fan Noctua NH-D15.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
And you have let to show us what that is a problem. More side stepping? I suppose even one of your own sources proves you wrong but you won't admit it? biggrin

Cite the source that proves me wrong here?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
.... however, past Flogger tried talking about NH-U14S and how it compared to his "cheaper coolers" despite me never talking about the NH-U14S. Proper fail.

You're the one who quoted me.

FFS Flogger. Look at your graphics in this post
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Please show me where I talked about anything other than the Noctua NH-D15 prior to that post. Since you are such an upstanding citizen from a first world country with first world attitudes, I expect an apology once your blunder sinks in.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
If you only wanted to talk about your specific cooler of choice, then you should never have my argument, which was referring to mid range vs high end cooelrs in general. Keep in mind, the above quote is exactly what you quoted in post #4395769.

I never recommended high end coolers in general.... who the fk does that? I recommend a specific cooler because I have experience with that specific cooler and there are reviews showing how that SPECIFIC cooler outperforms other SPECIFIC coolers. Do I have to explain to you how reviews work?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Maybe you should try the following yourself:
Originally Posted by - Ice
...communication, writing, and quoting skills...

Hahahaha... says the guy who can't even quote posts properly, much less read and comprehend.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
My point is that heat is the enemy of electronics. Do you dispute that?

The same strawman from earlier.

Hahahahahahahahaha.... OMG. Okay, explain how it's a strawman?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
So why run at 72C when you can run at 68C or whatever lower temps?

Do show us what advantage this has. Higher operating clocks? A notable increase in CPU life? You have been side stepping the entire time.

Wrong. Answered so many times. Please find someone to read this thread and explain it to you. Crayons might help.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Check the benchmark results you posted maybe? A mid range cooler came within 1.33C of a much more expensive cooler.

At this point we've linked so many benchmarks so be a gentleman and show me where.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
YOU claimed that the high-end coolers provided no extra utility. YOU argued that the few degrees difference does not matter. Therefore, YOU show me the proof.

I've already done that. You've even done it yourself. smile

Oh great! Awesome! That solves the issue then. Please provide a link/screenshot/direct quote where YOU have shown proof that the few degrees does not matter. Thank you!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
You have a knack of flipping statements around and you were unsuccessful in doing so in previous threads, you won't be doing that here either.

Read above. You outright lied above. Insults, side stepping & making others prove fictional arguments is not how you have a discussion.

You **ARE** aware that your distasteful and crass posts are still up in the other sub-forum, right? To then tell me that I am the one doing lies, insults, and side-stepping is funny.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Burden of proof is on you. I've proved my points; if you want to counter them do the same.

"I've proven my points".... hahahaha... really? I wouldn't be asking proof if you've already proven them. I'll give you an example --- I will no longer ask for proof of the efficiency of push-pull because you've already shown that and we've already agreed on it. Done! Sorted! The other points --- fans being better as a case fan as opposed to sticking them onto the single-tower heatsink, a few degrees of temperature difference does not shorten the life of a component, and my recommendation of the NH-D15 is breaking the OP's budget --- I'm still waiting on those.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
LOL.... "less heat = less wear" is a strawman?

I never said less heat = less wear. But you keep bringing up that point because you cannot counter the following:

Yes, Flogger, I know what a "strawman" is.... I never said you said the phrase either. You did, however, say that the phrase was an epic strawman, so please explain why it is so.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
CPU wise, get a decent $30 or so cooler. If your case has good airflow the expensive Noctuas are not necessary. The others will perform well within the safe operating temperatures and still be practically silent, even if you up the voltage on the CPU for overclocks. I would only bother with the large Noctuas or water cooling if you intended on squeezing every last MHZ out of your overclock, and by reading your replies in this thread, I do not think you will be doing that.

Already did so the first time I quoted that line. Read again.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Try addressing the points and we'd get somewhere.

Sure. Give me a bullet point of one and we'll do it.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
Still failing at following along.... tell me, is the OP on a tight budget??

Originally Posted by - malibu43
Less would be good too, as that makes it an easier sell to my wife.

Hahahahaha.... now go look up quote-mining, you smart and classy American, you!!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I'm trying to save him money where possible. I think I've been following along just fine.

Yes, I'm sure his wife would appreciate the $30 or so you've saved him by going for a cheaper cooler!! Wow!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
We've established the following:
- Mid range coolers can safely run a modest OC
- Mid range coolers are offer similar noise levels (differences are likely not noticeable to the human ear)
Points you originally were skeptical of.

Err... okay, maybe. We've also established that the NH-D15 runs cooler than your mid-range coolers and runs at the same or lower noise levels.... therefore better performance. More expensive too, yes. But breaking the budget? Nope.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
This is not wrong, but he also specifically mentioned to save if possible. And if you can get the same practical results, why not save a bit?

Yes!! Buy components well over £300 and then get a £25 cooler! You are mixing two build philosophies here. If you wanted to save, there are motherboards and CPUs that can provide stock 8600K-level performance for much less so if this was the build philosophy we were following, I'd agree with you 100% and get a mid-range cooler. If you wanted performance, then buy a K-series chip.... and the OP clearly stated he had a budget that would allow for a good, beefy cooler.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Then why did you post it? If it wasn't bolstering an argument you were making by bother?

If I have to explain that, Flogger, you've clearly not read or understood my post. Read again, good buddy.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
But what will a top of the line cooler provide in terms of practical advantages? It will successfully spend more money (when the OP is looking to save if possible) but what will it accomplish? Yes, it will run 2-3C (or in the case of the Reeven, maybe less) cooler, but what practical advantage will that provide?

deadhorse
I've gone over this so many times now that doing it again would be futile. Try reading the thread again. Circles!!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You shouldn't have quoted me, and then attempted to steer the conversation to the NH-D15 vs everything else. Because that was never my argument. Maybe you should go back to my original response to this thread and re-read what you quoted.

Says the guy who can't even do quotes properly. Please, if you wish to instruct me on who or what to quote, ensure you do a better job first.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Hardly. You've even proven the following points of mine to be correct with your own links:
- An extra CPU fan will only provide around 1-2C lower temps

That was YOUR point, not mine. If you insist on saying it's mine, show me where I did so and please ensure that none of your posts before that bring it up.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
- A mid range cooler will be sufficient for a CPU even with a modest voltage bump

Never argued about this. Try reading the thread again. Circles!!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Correct. What you were talking about, not me. For some reason you're shoving that argument into my mouth and are trying to make me prove it? What?

Present Flogger can't keep up with past Flogger's tangents... re-read the thread to see how it's YOUR argument.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
On the other hands, the images and links you've posted did prove that my Noctua NH-D15 is cooler and more silent than your mid-range offerings. Thanks!

That was painful to read, because I never claimed a mid range cooler performed better or more silent than an NH-D15. Again the imaginary arguments!

Who said you claimed that? I simply said thanks for proving my point... that the Noctua is cooler and more silent or as-silent depending on which one of your recommendation to compare against. Stop imagining an imaginary argument when none is being made.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
A very common theme for you. You never post anything substantial, side step, and seldom backup your points.

Oh, my apologies. If you think any of my points needs further clarification, please feel free to say so and I'll happily clarify or refer you to sections in the thread where I've done so.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
Again, I don't appreciate words being put in my mouth. My build philosophy is clearly stated above for everyone to see.

I know, I just summarized it for you. smile

Then you've either not understood my post or are being dishonest on purpose. Please stop doing either or both.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Reality - You haven't provided anything substantial.

We've JUST established that the NH-D15 is cooler and more silent (or as-quiet) as your other recommendations.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Your skepticism was proven to be off the mark in more than one way. As a result, you quickly dance over to another topic that was never being discussed "heat is the enemy of electronics, are you saying this is't true?!" and similar.

The skepticism was only on your claim of 1-2C of push-pull performance which I've already agreed with you as fact. However, the "heat is enemy of electronics" statement was on my 4th reply to you, so we were "dancing over that topic" way before the push-pull discussion. Try to get your timeline in order especially when you start throwing accusations around.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
The few times you did ended up working in my favor, extra CPU fan having minimal effect as an example. If you can go back to the start and actually counter what you originally quoted:

I think that's the only one working in your favor smile


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Well do tell us what is wrong with that picture.

If you've STILL not gotten the point, I doubt re-hashing it for the nth time will work. The thread is there for you to review. Good luck!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Taking your cooler of choice as an example, comparing it to a Reveen Justice, I can't imagine the heat difference of 1.33C is enough to make the CPU last longer or achieve a higher clocking.

Sure! The 1.33C difference (you do know other reviews like this one shows about a 3.4C difference at 200W heat load or 1.8C/150W, etc.) may not make a CPU last longer.... or it might.... where's your source to prove either way?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
If you can't or don't want to explain why (with something substantial) then don't even bother replying. smile

Just boggles the mind!!


- Ice
#4397732 - 01/01/18 03:36 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,581
Raw Kryptonite Offline
Beat the Kobayashi Maru
Raw Kryptonite  Offline
Beat the Kobayashi Maru
Veteran

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,581
MS
This is exhausting and I’m not even reading it. LOL


·Steam: Raw Kryptonite ·MWO & Elite Dangerous: Defcon Won ·Meager youtube channel
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#4397740 - 01/01/18 04:52 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,603
malibu43 Offline
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malibu43  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,603
SoCal
Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
This is exhausting and I’m not even reading it. LOL


Yep. I stopped reading these repliesca while ago!


Sager NP8671 17.3" Notebook, i74720HQ (3.6GHz), GTX 970M (3.0GB), 8GB DDR3 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HD, TrackIR 4, CH HOTAS and rudder pedals
#4397742 - 01/01/18 05:16 AM Re: New PC for simming (wishful thinking) [Re: malibu43]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Haha! Apologies for the thread derail guys. No need to read, really, we're just going around in circles! I'm just really countering him so that the falsehoods do not go unchallenged and maybe lead you to be believing one thing when it is either wrong or at least a different method/philosophy/concept exists. At the end of the day, it's up to the buyer to decide whether he wants to spend more for X or if he prefers allocating the money to Y or if he just prefers not to spend the money at all!

malibu, good luck with your future build and I do hope you post it here along with some pics!


- Ice
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