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#4393038 - 12/03/17 11:21 PM Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think?  
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Let's have a little contest here. Just put how many days you think ED will land on for online DRM. Let's keep this strictly on topic and keep the ugly out of it.

Just put down how many days you think. Winners will get some bragging rights.

There's no way they're doing 90. Thirty days is a stretch as well...I'm going to say 14 days.


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#4393039 - 12/03/17 11:23 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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#4393042 - 12/03/17 11:24 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Willing to split the bragging rights.

14


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#4393043 - 12/03/17 11:25 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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I think the poll will extend to the point that 90 days 'wins' with about 50% of the votes but there is no way on earth ED will opt for that. I reckon they'll go with 30 days......any less than that and it still won't help many people.


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#4393047 - 12/03/17 11:48 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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7



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#4393063 - 12/04/17 12:47 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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7 is the highest they'll go, I think, and they'll make a big fuss about how they listened to the community and how they're protecting their assets and how the 7 days is the bestest, most awesomest timeframe ever.

I think 30 would be better, 90 would be great, and I would give ED serious credit if they decide on 6 months.... but my bet is we'll end up with 7 days.


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#4393078 - 12/04/17 01:26 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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I hope they update the DRM as fast as other fixes to game.

I say 7 because they started with 3 and there's no way they do 30 or 90.

Last edited by IceecI; 12/04/17 01:36 AM.

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#4393092 - 12/04/17 03:48 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Unlimited.

#4393094 - 12/04/17 03:56 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Frederf]  
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Originally Posted by Frederf
Unlimited.


You honestly believe TFC/ Eagle Dynamics is going to set the re-verify time at Unlimited?



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#4393116 - 12/04/17 08:10 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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If they have any ethical integrity it is the only option.

#4393127 - 12/04/17 10:38 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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They'll keep it at 3 days because they know best.

#4393135 - 12/04/17 11:20 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Frederf]  
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Originally Posted by Frederf
Unlimited.


I think he is right ... why?

Because TFC (See EULA page) are based in the UK and have to follow uk law when selling digital items . .and
if they change to this new system they might be breaking the law and opening themselves up for people claiming refunds
on all ED purchases that use this new system, could you imagine what what happen to them if everyone reported them to UK trading standards and ask for refunds ?

Maybe everyone who doesn't want this new system logs into https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com site
and raises a support ticket asking about getting refunds for all ED products they own

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Last edited by leaf_on_the_wind; 12/04/17 12:57 PM.


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#4393136 - 12/04/17 11:23 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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That's where the tricky part comes in, it only applies to AV8B for now.
When they move modules over one-by-one I imagine less people will "notice".

#4393150 - 12/04/17 12:39 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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#4393155 - 12/04/17 01:22 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Want 30 as a minimum, expect ED to do 7. I hope they are in breach of EU regs, I will be asking for a refund of every module if that's the case. I have a lot of modules.

#4393158 - 12/04/17 02:07 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Ok,I'll ask.What's wrong with the DRM they have now? I've never had an issue with it except where I've forgotten to de-activate a module before uninstalling DCS (which I have done many,many times in the past).


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#4393167 - 12/04/17 03:08 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
Ok,I'll ask.What's wrong with the DRM they have now? I've never had an issue with it except where I've forgotten to de-activate a module before uninstalling DCS (which I have done many,many times in the past).



Nothing at all it works great in my opinion ...... but its costs ED money per key ...... they are trying to save a buck and screw us at the same time



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#4393187 - 12/04/17 04:39 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Think 30 would be more reasonable but ED might go 7

#4393219 - 12/04/17 07:09 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Chucky]  
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From our perspective, nothing.

From their perspective, I suspect two things:

1) They have to pay for StarForce keys, and my understanding is that they are not exactly cheap - but don't quote me on that
2) They may have noticed a lot of SP sessions with a whole lot of different IPs ... while you couldn't run multiple sessions concurrently, all someone has to do is block access to the activation server after activating once, and they now have a perfectly working game, they can receive updates for it etc. In other words, they may have noticed a lot of practical piracy - but this is a pure guess on my part.

Originally Posted by Chucky
Ok,I'll ask.What's wrong with the DRM they have now? I've never had an issue with it except where I've forgotten to de-activate a module before uninstalling DCS (which I have done many,many times in the past).


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#4393225 - 12/04/17 07:32 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost

2) They may have noticed a lot of SP sessions with a whole lot of different IPs ... while you couldn't run multiple sessions concurrently, all someone has to do is block access to the activation server after activating once, and they now have a perfectly working game, they can receive updates for it etc. In other words, they may have noticed a lot of practical piracy - but this is a pure guess on my part.



Not an IT guy so this might sound silly to the ones that are.

Don't most residential ISP services have dynamic IP addresses that change often?
Would that not lead to a false positive that so many "Different" IP addresses are seen?



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#4393231 - 12/04/17 08:11 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Monnie Rock]  
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Originally Posted by Monnie Rock
Originally Posted by GrayGhost

2) They may have noticed a lot of SP sessions with a whole lot of different IPs ... while you couldn't run multiple sessions concurrently, all someone has to do is block access to the activation server after activating once, and they now have a perfectly working game, they can receive updates for it etc. In other words, they may have noticed a lot of practical piracy - but this is a pure guess on my part.



Not an IT guy so this might sound silly to the ones that are.

Don't most residential ISP services have dynamic IP addresses that change often?
Would that not lead to a false positive that so many "Different" IP addresses are seen?



Exactly correct, most ISP's give you an address for 24-48 hours then force change it
You can get a static IP ..... but you have to pay more for it per month for the privilidge ....



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#4393258 - 12/04/17 10:33 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Correct but not mitigating. The same key might 'show up' with geologically diverse IPs in a specific pattern (ie. unblocked for an update, or even as a first use and never updated again - many IPs from very improbably many locations).
You could shrug it off it was one or two time occurrences, but if they were to find that this is happening often then it's an indicator of piracy.


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#4393264 - 12/04/17 11:34 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Correct but not mitigating. The same key might 'show up' with geologically diverse IPs in a specific pattern (ie. unblocked for an update, or even as a first use and never updated again - many IPs from very improbably many locations).
You could shrug it off it was one or two time occurrences, but if they were to find that this is happening often then it's an indicator of piracy.


I'm going to go off the title topic a tad as well to explore this a little. I've never heard of any widespread piracy going on with ED's products...that doesn't mean it's not happening, but I highly doubt it since the base game is free anyway. It comes down to if the end justifies the means.

We know already that flight simming is a niche genre, so does ED actually come out ahead in combatting what is probably minor piracy vs the cost of implementing these intrusive and expensive DRM schemes? I think Denuvo has charged some developers 1 million dollars to use their DRM. I know ED
isn't using Denuvo...but when you look at license server cost, maintenance, personnel to run it, updating it constantly for new modules, new engines...etc. Then factor in the inconvienence to the customer and it seems a bit extreme for a small genre.

With most DRM schemes...the paying customer is the one that ends up getting the shaft. (performance hits, programs not launching etc.)


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#4393272 - 12/05/17 12:45 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Well, I looked and I looked hard.


I could not find any doom and gloom from official ED employees about widespread piracy. Maybe someone may find it better than me.

All i could find from official ED employees were terms, statements like " protecting our ip" " World class copy protection"


All the doom and gloom about losing tons of money, rampant loss , this horrible piracy is coming from either moderators or viper, maybe a few others. ( did not spend THAT much time looking)

You know the first thing ED would say if that was questioned. " Moderators are not ED employees. That is not an official statement"

That is all I could find.

Last edited by Monnie Rock; 12/05/17 12:46 AM.


Poll Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit
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#4393311 - 12/05/17 02:06 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10
I'm going to go off the title topic a tad as well to explore this a little. I've never heard of any widespread piracy going on with ED's products...that doesn't mean it's not happening, but I highly doubt it since the base game is free anyway. It comes down to if the end justifies the means.


Like I said, there are two reasons:
1) SF costs money
2) Piracy is in fact happening

Quote

We know already that flight simming is a niche genre, so does ED actually come out ahead in combatting what is probably minor piracy vs the cost of implementing these intrusive and expensive DRM schemes? I think Denuvo has charged some developers 1 million dollars to use their DRM. I know ED
isn't using Denuvo...but when you look at license server cost, maintenance, personnel to run it, updating it constantly for new modules, new engines...etc. Then factor in the inconvienence to the customer and it seems a bit extreme for a small genre.

With most DRM schemes...the paying customer is the one that ends up getting the shaft. (performance hits, programs not launching etc.)


Do you really believe that ED would be spending a lot of money on DRM if it failed to do anything useful for them?


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#4393346 - 12/05/17 05:20 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost


Do you really believe that ED would be spending a lot of money on DRM if it failed to do anything useful for them?


I honestly don't know. ED has done some head scratching things in the past for sure. They were the first in video game history to have a pre-order bonus be 5 years late...so anything is possible. Pirates generally don't pay for software anyway so it's hard to get an accurate estimate of cost vs savings.

Keep in mind that intrusive DRM is what killed the Silent Hunter franchise. Ubisoft realized their mistake too late and reversed it, but the damage was done. I would guess ED knows how to handle their private contracts...and that's what keeps them afloat. Dealing with the public sector is not their strength.


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#4393369 - 12/05/17 08:47 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Do you really believe that ED would be spending a lot of money on DRM if it failed to do anything useful for them?


Does a bear crap in the woods? yep

Would ED create multiple development streams if it had the effect that there are 3 times as much work to do, 3 times as much integration to do, 3 times as much wasted resources as there needs to be and about 900% more work for any 3rd parties wanting to support their aircraft across all dev streams?


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#4393390 - 12/05/17 10:56 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz


Does a bear crap in the woods? yep

Would ED create multiple development streams if it had the effect that there are 3 times as much work to do, 3 times as much integration to do, 3 times as much wasted resources as there needs to be and about 900% more work for any 3rd parties wanting to support their aircraft across all dev streams?



And

Ready for this?


Three times as much DRM


Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Like I said, there are two reasons:
1) SF costs money
2) Piracy is in fact happening


Do you really believe that ED would be spending a lot of money on DRM if it failed to do anything useful for them?



If Starforce cost money, and piracy is happening as you stated, then, you answered your own question.

ED is spending a lot of money 1) Starforce on something that failed them e.g. 2) piracy is happening.

Last edited by Monnie Rock; 12/05/17 11:03 PM.


Poll Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit
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#4393392 - 12/05/17 11:03 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Regarding piracy.... so what? Is a new DRM really the solution? Didn't they block keys from certain resellers? What's wrong with that solution? If a certain IP keeps coming up from different locations and is suspect, then ban that key and let the legit owner raise a support ticket. If it is piracy, then they won't be raising a support ticket, done. If it's a legit owner, ask for proof, verify it, tell him his key and login activity is suspect, give him another one and tell him that if this 2nd key shows suspect activity again, it will be locked and a new key will not be given. Done. I'm sure that's a more-than-fair policy. Instead, ED pulls this 3-day-phone-home BS?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Like I said, there are two reasons:
1) SF costs money

And this one will not cost them money?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Do you really believe that ED would be spending a lot of money on DRM if it failed to do anything useful for them?

Well, it seems like ED just spent a lot of money developing and hyping the DCS Hornet when they didn't even have the permissions to release the module in the first place. It could've gone sour for them at any point and they'd have spent all that money for useless code, textures, and models.


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#4393411 - 12/06/17 01:55 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Regarding piracy.... so what? Is a new DRM really the solution?


Looks like you have it figured out, so tell us smile

Quote
And this one will not cost them money?


Maybe it will cost them less money. Maybe in addition to that it has other uses.

Quote
Well, it seems like ED just spent a lot of money developing and hyping the DCS Hornet when they didn't even have the permissions to release the module in the first place. It could've gone sour for them at any point and they'd have spent all that money for useless code, textures, and models.


... they've had permission to release it for years. They wouldn't even start without it. I'm aware of certain leads that they didn't pursue because they could not in fact get permission for what they wanted to do - they never started developing code for such things so, what you're saying just doesn't sound like ED.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 12/06/17 01:56 AM.

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#4393432 - 12/06/17 09:31 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost

Looks like you have it figured out, so tell us smile


us = I am part of

so, any news on those who own modules and want to gift/sell them ?

#4393528 - 12/07/17 12:10 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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3 days and 1 hour. They have to show they listened to the community and they also have to show they don't really care what the community want.

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#4393529 - 12/07/17 12:17 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Looks like you have it figured out, so tell us smile

If I **DID** have it figured out, do you think I will do so for free? I'm not in the business of giving professional companies handouts. smile

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Maybe it will cost them less money. Maybe in addition to that it has other uses.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't..... so until we know it won't cost them money, you point #1 is invalid.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
... they've had permission to release it for years. They wouldn't even start without it. I'm aware of certain leads that they didn't pursue because they could not in fact get permission for what they wanted to do - they never started developing code for such things so, what you're saying just doesn't sound like ED.

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More recently, and with great difficulties, we finally signed the necessary agreements to allow the sale of our upcoming DCS: F/A-18C Hornet.

I could be wrong, but if you have had permission to something for YEARS, you do not use terms like "more recently" and "finally."


- Ice
#4393536 - 12/07/17 02:28 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
If I **DID** have it figured out, do you think I will do so for free? I'm not in the business of giving professional companies handouts. smile


No I meant that you've got ED figured out.

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Maybe it will, maybe it won't..... so until we know it won't cost them money, you point #1 is invalid.


My point is fine, I explicitly pointed out that I was making assumptions some posts back.

Quote
I could be wrong, but if you have had permission to something for YEARS, you do not use terms like "more recently" and "finally."


For a guy who likes to take stuff with a grain of salt, you sure stick to literals when it suits you. That sentence is completely devoid of context and detail. What I said stands. I don't believe for a second that ED would put a lot of work in if they didn't know that they were going to be selling this thing to someone. Perhaps this has more to do with any perceived delay than anything else, too.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 12/07/17 02:29 AM.

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#4393708 - 12/08/17 12:18 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
No I meant that you've got ED figured out.

Oh that? I think we've had ED figured out for a good time now, so if you want to know, feel free to review threads here on SimHQ. smile


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
My point is fine, I explicitly pointed out that I was making assumptions some posts back.

You assumed that SF costs money, so I asked how did you come to the reasonable conclusion that this new DRM will not cost them money or will cost them less money compared to SF?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
For a guy who likes to take stuff with a grain of salt, you sure stick to literals when it suits you. That sentence is completely devoid of context and detail. What I said stands. I don't believe for a second that ED would put a lot of work in if they didn't know that they were going to be selling this thing to someone. Perhaps this has more to do with any perceived delay than anything else, too.

So you're defense is basically, ED can't speak English properly?

We know ED is totally clueless when forecasting that they will get XX done by time YY, but now you're telling me ED is also totally clueless as to when things have occurred in the past?


- Ice
#4393761 - 12/08/17 06:36 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: - Ice]  
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What I'm saying is that they're not telling you the whole story.

Originally Posted by - Ice
So you're defense is basically, ED can't speak English properly?

We know ED is totally clueless when forecasting that they will get XX done by time YY, but now you're telling me ED is also totally clueless as to when things have occurred in the past?


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#4393927 - 12/08/17 11:21 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
What I'm saying is that they're not telling you the whole story.

Oh, do tell!

Now the excuse is that ED can't tell a story properly....


- Ice
#4393931 - 12/08/17 11:32 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: - Ice]  
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Nice trolling. smile No, I'm just telling you they don't care to tell you. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though!

Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by GrayGhost
What I'm saying is that they're not telling you the whole story.

Oh, do tell!

Now the excuse is that ED can't tell a story properly....


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#4393935 - 12/08/17 11:47 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Oh, my sincerest apology for hurting your feelings over the internet.

Now that we've got that out of the way, what proof do you have that they're not telling me and the entire DCS community the whole story? I suppose they made a public statement on their Facebook page but this is not the whole story because they want to make a statement, but they don't care to tell it fully or properly or even use the correct wording for their story...... and I suppose you expect me to believe that they've told YOU the whole story?

Source? Put up or shut up, GrayGhost. I'm tired of chasing you around for a clear answer when you have the gall to accuse me of doing the trolling.


- Ice
#4393942 - 12/09/17 12:06 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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During our entire history, we have remained loyal to our initial dream of making the most realistic combat aviation simulations.

.... which we are now changing as we develop trainer aircraft and we have OK'ed the inclusion of the Christen Eagle II to the stable of Digital COMBAT Simulations.

Quote
More recently, and with great difficulties, we finally signed the necessary agreements to allow the sale of our upcoming DCS: F/A-18C Hornet. The team has been working very hard on this project and we are at the point now where we are talking much more about it with regular updates. After a long period of developing needed technologies (flight model and radar), research, design (data on late-LOT F/A-18C), and legal matters, we are nearing the point in which we will be able to provide the Early Access version of the Hornet.

Have they recently got permission to sell the Hornet? If so, then they've been promoting and teasing and working on a module for years that they've not yet gotten the permissions to sell. If they've got permission long ago, then why use words like recently and finally?

They must not know how to speak English because we know there have not been regular updates on the Hornet. We also know that they've not yet fully developed the radar as the Hornet is slated to be released with a stunted A-A radar and no A-G radar, so what's this talk about a long period of developing needed technologies? They might've spent a long period developing the FM, but obviously not a significant time has been allocated on radar development. They either don't know how to speak English or they don't know how to properly convey their message..... or they're just plain spouting BS.

Now I wonder which one is more plausible based on ED's track record?


- Ice
#4393964 - 12/09/17 04:06 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: - Ice]  
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I didn't say that either, you just made it up. smile

Originally Posted by - Ice
andd I suppose you expect me to believe that they've told YOU the whole story?


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#4394019 - 12/09/17 04:10 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I didn't say that either, you just made it up. smile

Did I say that you said it? Read the quote again.

You say ED has not told the whole story, so that implies you know more of the story than we do, if not the whole story. So.... source? Put up or shut up, GrayGhost.


- Ice
#4394041 - 12/09/17 06:00 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Reading over the whole thing again and not just how it effects me and my working habits, but how it effects others too, best compromise would seem to be 30 days and the most realistic balance if this is how DCS ED wish to go forward ... I really dont think they have much of a piracy issue, one of my *ahem* work friends is the biggest pirate since Blackbeard and he says he is aware of DCS and nobody in his scene as he calls it bothers with it ... I honestly do not condone that crap, I pay for my software and expect others to do so too.

So my vote for what its worth would be 30 days., that's basically a month and is that not roughly how long any used up activations would renew on old system?, it does beg the question why does this need to be changed in the first place though? 3 days seems ridiculously short ... was not a fan of the original activation thing to start with, but so long as I remembered to de-activate before upgrading PC it always worked and even on rare occasion I had computer crash and re-install, was it not a month before a lost activation came back? something like that, its always been complicated with ED DCS and they are one of the few Sim Companys I need to seriously consider before upgrading my FS rig that I like to do often enthusiast wise.

Hopefully they will do the right thing, but sometimes, when something just works (and even if not popular) perhaps its best to leave it alone and concentrate on what does need fixing ... if its not broke, please dont try fix it springs to mind.

To be honest and for reasons I can not fathom, ED have built up an Us and Them culture and it might have been easier for them to recognise customers for what they are worth (their income or at least part of it given the military contracts) I'm not saying who I am over on their boards, but I'm clinging on, its not a good atmosphere there at all.

Do enjoy DCS with its limitations and ongoing promises, its not all bad, but its not an ideal situation here or over there.

Would be great if we had some sort of mediating body between ED and the Community, because there is a lot of bad blood flowing ... had hoped Mudspike might be, but they seem to want to stay out of any such issues, indeed one of the ED DCS mods presides there, so thats not gonna happen I guess?

#4394080 - 12/09/17 09:44 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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I'm ok with copy protection, it's just about mandatory nowadays. However, it feels like ED assumes that all of us are thieving bastards from the get go. Doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy with this latest shot at copy protection.

#4394093 - 12/10/17 12:50 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Carefree]  
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Originally Posted by Carefree
Reading over the whole thing again and not just how it effects me and my working habits, but how it effects others too, best compromise would seem to be 30 days and the most realistic balance if this is how DCS ED wish to go forward ...


I would be okay with that. But if they insist on connecting to the internet once every 30 days, then can the hardware checks outside of the motherboard be removed? I recall changing my RAM/SSD and loosing an activation or two. The whole deactivate/reactivate thing is a pain each time you make a minor hardware change. If they're adding an online check they should remove the hardware check, IMO.

Originally Posted by - Ice
Regarding piracy.... so what? Is a new DRM really the solution? Didn't they block keys from certain resellers? What's wrong with that solution? If a certain IP keeps coming up from different locations and is suspect, then ban that key and let the legit owner raise a support ticket. If it is piracy, then they won't be raising a support ticket, done. If it's a legit owner, ask for proof, verify it, tell him his key and login activity is suspect, give him another one and tell him that if this 2nd key shows suspect activity again, it will be locked and a new key will not be given. Done. I'm sure that's a more-than-fair policy. Instead, ED pulls this 3-day-phone-home BS?


Maybe I not reading that in the correct context (I have only skimmed the thread) but do you seriously think that is a fair policy? Ban a suspected key, and if a legitimate owner accidentally gets screwed over they can open a support ticket to appeal after the fact? I disagree and cannot get behind such a scheme at all. Unless they are very, very lenient with what they define as a "suspect key" I can't see that being anything short of a disaster.

Regarding the keys they did ban, those grey market sites bought the keys via stolen credit cards. That isn't exactly piracy, but rather is outright theft. Unlike piracy this directly hurts the developers financially. There was a good article some months (or a year or so) back about another developer who explained the situation in more detail. Never went to those third party grey market sites (G2A ect.) but after reading how a lot of the sellers operated on them, I will certainly never take my business there. Ubisoft started doing similar but the backlash was so big that they re-instated the keys if I recall due to the backlash. Being a bigger publisher they were likely able to adsorb the costs.

Eurogamer on Ubisoft.

I went a bit off topic and if I misinterpreted you then I apologize.

#4394103 - 12/10/17 02:11 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Maybe I not reading that in the correct context (I have only skimmed the thread) but do you seriously think that is a fair policy? Ban a suspected key, and if a legitimate owner accidentally gets screwed over they can open a support ticket to appeal after the fact? I disagree and cannot get behind such a scheme at all. Unless they are very, very lenient with what they define as a "suspect key" I can't see that being anything short of a disaster.


I was responding to the discussion about keys and IP addresses. Explain to me why you think it's unfair? Where are the holes?

As for grey market and keys from those sites, this does not seem to be included in the current DRM discussion so no sense in going there.


- Ice
#4394113 - 12/10/17 02:30 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Maybe I not reading that in the correct context (I have only skimmed the thread) but do you seriously think that is a fair policy? Ban a suspected key, and if a legitimate owner accidentally gets screwed over they can open a support ticket to appeal after the fact? I disagree and cannot get behind such a scheme at all. Unless they are very, very lenient with what they define as a "suspect key" I can't see that being anything short of a disaster.


I was responding to the discussion about keys and IP addresses.


In general pirates will entirely remove the DRM, so ED will not even be able to flag IPs. In other words, if an IP keeps popping up in different locations, it will be a legitimate key. I don't see how it will be helpful aside from flagging customers who change their IP (travel, ect.) frequently.

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were referring to.

If I am understanding you correctly, personally (this is just an opinion) I find it too harsh. But I feel the same for ED's current plan.

#4394117 - 12/10/17 03:00 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
]In general pirates will entirely remove the DRM, so ED will not even be able to flag IPs. In other words, if an IP keeps popping up in different locations, it will be a legitimate key. I don't see how it will be helpful aside from flagging customers who change their IP (travel, ect.) frequently.

Agreed. I was more referring to GrayGhost's post:
Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Correct but not mitigating. The same key might 'show up' with geologically diverse IPs in a specific pattern (ie. unblocked for an update, or even as a first use and never updated again - many IPs from very improbably many locations).
You could shrug it off it was one or two time occurrences, but if they were to find that this is happening often then it's an indicator of piracy.


So in your example, your key might show up in the USA, then a day later in Germany, then maybe 2 days later in the UK. So long as it's one location at a time, that's fine.... maybe even two locations in one day.... you could've started the day in Germany then hopped on a flight to the UK. Showing up from many IPs from very improbable or many locations and this happening often can be an indication that that particular key has been "shared" and so I was suggesting the policy that you've highlighted in bold above. Still think it's unfair? Where are the holes?


- Ice
#4394706 - 12/14/17 12:57 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Has ED decided yet what the time limit will be? Read they might announce it this week after some review.

#4394730 - 12/14/17 04:14 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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I am not sure I understand this. This new protection means you have to log on within every 3 days or what happens? I also don't understand why ED is having such bad Piracy problems but no other Flight sims have this kind of protection(3 days). I have been drifting away from ED and not buying any modules lately after the disappointing optimization of the Normandy map, but this may be the last nail in the coffin for me, as I only log in when an update is happening. Between BOX, CLOD, ROF and WOFF UE I think I can find my Flight Sim fix without ED anymore. salute

S!Blade<><

#4394742 - 12/14/17 05:35 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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I do not think they have such bad problems but when sales are going down the easy way out as a producer is to tell everyone this product is still very very popular but there are so many pirates out there stealing it so THAT's why sales are down through the floor.

We've all learnt by now that we, DCS consumers, are not what ED makes their business from but we are rather a side income from contracted work (hence the insane delays on already announced stuff that would have had any producer in the world sacked in a frigging second) so there is nothing to gain from putting retarded DRM's on us but we are most probably guniea pigs for some tools they plan to use for their real customers.

#4394752 - 12/14/17 07:16 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
I do not think they have such bad problems but when sales are going down the easy way out as a producer is to tell everyone this product is still very very popular but there are so many pirates out there stealing it so THAT's why sales are down through the floor.

We've all learnt by now that we, DCS consumers, are not what ED makes their business from but we are rather a side income from contracted work (hence the insane delays on already announced stuff that would have had any producer in the world sacked in a frigging second) so there is nothing to gain from putting retarded DRM's on us but we are most probably guniea pigs for some tools they plan to use for their real customers.



Sorry Oden, but that's backwards thinking IMHO and should not be accepted in any shape or form, but for a moment, lets assume ED as you say treat us as (guinea pigs) for real customers ... then who are the real customers? we all know ED have military contracts, so basically what you are saying is ... we are public people are testing for the military, please get a grip ..... ??? ...... Since when has a general gaming audience ever become the beta testing for a real military contract, please think about what you say before you type in future.

But going back to my MO, have ED in their infinite wisdom and despite the overwhelming sway in the poll they put up, have they decided yet or not how to make it more painful for their customers, to punish them more?

Just how difficult is it to decide (or back down?) when needed? ED really are the worst, they treat customers like garbage and wonder why they get back lash.

#4394756 - 12/14/17 08:07 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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It's not just military...it's private contracts as well. The YAK-52 is a good example. It's an "outgrowth" from a professional model sim that is being brought to us. What on Earth would the military want with a high fidelity, professional YAK52 simulator?


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#4394757 - 12/14/17 08:10 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10
It's not just military...it's private contracts as well. The YAK-52 is a good example. It's an "outgrowth" from a professional model sim that is being brought to us. What on Earth would the military want with a high fidelity, professional YAK52 simulator?


Nobody ever said it was a military contract. IIRC, the statement indicated that it was a private contract. Aside from that, I still agree. Who, that could afford it, would want to contract for that aircraft?


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#4394761 - 12/14/17 09:21 AM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Carefree]  
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Originally Posted by Blade_Meister
I am not sure I understand this. This new protection means you have to log on within every 3 days or what happens?

From what I understand, if it's been more than 3 days since authentication and you use the module and it cannot connect to the internet to phone home, the module will not work and you will be unable to play that module.


Originally Posted by Blade_Meister
I also don't understand why ED is having such bad Piracy problems but no other Flight sims have this kind of protection(3 days). I have been drifting away from ED and not buying any modules lately after the disappointing optimization of the Normandy map, but this may be the last nail in the coffin for me, as I only log in when an update is happening. Between BOX, CLOD, ROF and WOFF UE I think I can find my Flight Sim fix without ED anymore. salute

Because only ED has recognized this to be a world class copy protection system and all the other flight sims have no idea what they're doing. biggrin biggrin biggrin


Originally Posted by Carefree
Sorry Oden, but that's backwards thinking IMHO and should not be accepted in any shape or form, but for a moment, lets assume

No need to assume. ED has shown its backwards thinking many times now.... constant delays, 3 dev streams, aircraft selection....


Originally Posted by Carefree
ED as you say treat us as (guinea pigs) for real customers ... then who are the real customers? we all know ED have military contracts, so basically what you are saying is ... we are public people are testing for the military, please get a grip ..... ???

You misunderstand.... and it's funny how you use phrases like "please get a grip".... maybe you should understand the message first. We are a side-income group for ED. There was nothing about us testing for the military.


Originally Posted by Carefree
Since when has a general gaming audience ever become the beta testing for a real military contract, please think about what you say before you type in future.

Please read the message clearly and don't put words in people's mouths then responding to your misinterpretation when you make a reply in the future.


Originally Posted by Carefree
But going back to my MO, have ED in their infinite wisdom and despite the overwhelming sway in the poll they put up, have they decided yet or not how to make it more painful for their customers, to punish them more?

What were you saying about backwards thinking now? biggrin


Originally Posted by Carefree
Just how difficult is it to decide (or back down?) when needed? ED really are the worst, they treat customers like garbage and wonder why they get back lash.

Let's just stop for a moment and realize that ED has decided on this DRM scheme and has decided on a 3-day phone home time limit and decided to announce it right after Harrier release. They are now looking like idiots talking about compromise and unobtrusive protection.... which means to say they never considered those points BEFORE now.


- Ice
#4394811 - 12/14/17 05:50 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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The biggest issue with how ED handled this new DRM ...... they never told the customer until AFTER they had suckered them in



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4394856 - 12/14/17 09:55 PM Re: Based on ED's poll...how many days do you think? [Re: Force10]  
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Very nice of them too!! They can tell us and tease us for YEARS regarding a new module or a new version of DCS, but DRM? No, that's hush-hush and then SURPRISE!!! smile


- Ice
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