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#4390705 - 11/21/17 10:46 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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Right now I'm just pleased there are plans to release an updated WWI title. I had started to believe RoF was going to be the last WWI sim we'd see.

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#4390729 - 11/21/17 02:37 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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I agree with all of Darts statements about the weaknesses of ROF. I just reinstalled two days ago and I'm enjoying it again, but yeah, all valid. I doubt if Jason is going to release Flying Circus with all the same issues. It is going to be, basically, ROF run through the updated graphics engine. But, I'm sure, with all of the good things they've implemented in the new IL-2 series. I'm letting my guard down with this stuff they are anouncing, and getting excited about it all. Hope I'm not disappointed as I have been, so many times, in the past. But they seem to deliver and seem to listen to the customers. Got my fingers crossed. CLoD 5.0., Operation Bodenplatte, and Flying Circus will, hopefully, make 2018 a very good flight simming year.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
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#4390836 - 11/22/17 02:26 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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What has me worried is that it will be all new flight models in an updated physics engine designed for higher speeds and altitudes. We will have to wait and see but I am optimistic.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#4390845 - 11/22/17 04:07 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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Nah, I don't see that as an issue. They're building a Po-2 for the Russian Front sim, and I don't think that thing could go over sixty miles an hour! They seem to know what they're doing.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#4391294 - 11/25/17 06:30 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Master]  
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Originally Posted by Master
What has me worried is that it will be all new flight models in an updated physics engine designed for higher speeds and altitudes. We will have to wait and see but I am optimistic.


Jason talked about this in his Teamspeak session and said the current flight models from ROF will be ported over into FC, existing side-by-side with the WWII-era flight models.

#4391330 - 11/25/17 04:55 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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No, what he said was that they imported a DR1 into the ww2 engine and flew it with a ww2 flight model. He said they can import the 3d models for the most part but they have to completely rebuild the flight models.

He also said on the forum that once it is done you should be able to fly them side by side with ww2 planes. As far as I know they have not to date imported a ww1 plane and built a ww1 flight model.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#4391419 - 11/26/17 05:06 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Master]  
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Originally Posted by Master
No, what he said was that they imported a DR1 into the ww2 engine and flew it with a ww2 flight model. He said they can import the 3d models for the most part but they have to completely rebuild the flight models..


Sorry, but that is absolutely incorrect. Go back and and listen to what he said. They aren't rebuilding anything with the WWI flight models but directly importing the flight models currently in the Digital Nature engine.

#4391420 - 11/26/17 05:15 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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Here is the quote.

"We imported the fokker dr1 into the engine several months ago to take a look at it. When I saw it in the engine, in the office, flying around with a wwii flight model, which was kind of funny, it held up. The plane looked great, it looked great in the engine."

They didnt import the flight model. They ONLY imported the 3d model and flew it with a makeshift wwii flight model. For these 10-15 planes just bringing the planes in and refurbishing them to work in engine will take almost a year. (thats a direct quote on the time frame.) So its not as simple as you think it is going to be. (from my interpretation at least)


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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http://www.alt-games-warbirds.com
Blood, Guts and Oil, My youtube channel
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#4391517 - 11/26/17 06:25 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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Some of those FMs were flakey after the last update so I hope they're reworked.

#4391546 - 11/26/17 09:04 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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They gutted the pfalz diii frown I hope they return it. It wasnt ever a great plane but if you had a bit of altitude you could hold your own with some of the better ent planes until you ran out of maneuvering altitude and then you ded.

On the last rebalanced they gave it a glass engine and cut it's engine output even more making it completely useless in game.

The biggest thing I hope they fix is the disparity between the two mgs. I know they were different rounds but the the ent side felt like it wasnt even affected by engine vibrations. It was just a lazer. And the CP side was like throwing hand fulls of gravel...

Last edited by Master; 11/26/17 09:06 PM.

And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
-IL-2 BoS Dev Team

http://www.alt-games-warbirds.com
Blood, Guts and Oil, My youtube channel
twitch.tv/masterjts

Unofficial SimHQ Discord
#4391641 - 11/27/17 07:37 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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Jason said that right now they build a switch in BOX that will allow to use directly ROF FMs for FC planes, and for this very reason they might not allow WWI and WW2 planes flying at the same time, unless they find an easy way to donit. WWI planes FMs in FC will be ROF FMs, no alteration.

Last edited by rollnloop.; 11/27/17 07:38 PM.
#4395117 - 12/16/17 03:01 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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I am overjoyed that we get an improved RoF. Whether it will be improved a little or a lot is secondary to me: the fact that we get VR support is enough for me. FlyingMonkey, I fully understand that you do not want to make the time investment to develop VR support for RoF. But it will probably be a long time before the first Flying Circus installment is released, and is it certain that we will get all RoF planes and other features back? I for one would still be ready to draw my wallet for a payware RoF VR support add-on. But, again, I completely sympathize if you do want to make the effort.
Best regards,
Stickshaker

#4396580 - 12/24/17 06:40 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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Flying Circus is indeed good news.


Just a question regarding ROF aeroplanes. Will they be able to be imported into the new game? Over time I've spent quite a bit of money building up my hanger (like a lot of guys here I would expect).


"Somewhere out there is page 6!"
"But Emillo you promised ....... it's postpone"
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#4396645 - 12/24/17 07:13 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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Jason said the plane was to bring more RoF models into the new engine.

But reading your post, it sounds like you are expecting that your RoF hangar and the Flying Circus hanger to be linked somehow.

They wont, you will be buying all the aircraft again.

The Digital Nature Engine in BoX has moved along quite a bit since RoFand Flying circus, although borrowing a lot from RoF will be a new titile and all players will be starting from new.




.

Last edited by Steve_F; 12/24/17 07:16 PM.
#4396715 - 12/25/17 11:28 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted by Dart
Unleash the AI. Good gravy, the Beta AI was loads better than the release one, and it only got worse with updates. I guess people complained when the AI, at higher levels, would extend away during a fight, attempt to climb away, and lower AI would actually run away if it got the chance when damaged. This was replaced with the knife fighting to-the-death AI we have now.


This (along with the problems with ridiculously weak damage models and too effective shooting at long range that Maddox games always have) is the main reason I gave up on buying a better computer so I could play ROF regularly. Enemy pilots don't behave like real pilots. No human stays in a dogfight when they're in a plane that's badly damaged and can't turn. I mean, it's just ridiculous that an aircraft that can outclimb or outrun me sticks in a turning fight with me when he's badly damaged but can easily get away. And it's not as if modeling the desire to escape from a no-win situation is hard to do. The result is a visually beautiful WW1 air combat simulation that fails to simulate one of the most basic aspects of WW1 air combat. It's fricken ludicrous.

Last edited by Beery; 12/25/17 11:29 AM.
#4396845 - 12/26/17 04:49 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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To be fair, Beery, human players - with the luxury of a restart option - aren't much better in multi-player. Indeed, I was on a mixed server, with both AI and human planes, and was often fooled on which was AI and which was human operated.

Both out of a sense of personal challenge and experience in "Dead is Dead" tournaments back in the IL-2 days, I tend to either attempt to disengage if damaged or flat out avoid fights when the odds are against me (and the mission allows it). This is rare, no matter what the flight sim is.

Heck, the number of times when there were four of us humans flying formation in IL-2 and some lone guy below us would attack (when he could have tried to evade) were mind boggling. Nothing like being attacked from below by a Val when one is in a flight of four Corsairs.

But the AI does need improvement.

I like your ideas about dispersal of rounds, particularly on WWI aircraft. There's a reason why pilots flew so close to the enemy that they would have blood on their cowls after a successful kill, and it wasn't about poor marksmanship. A 300 meter shot should be pissing in the wind, and yet it's pretty commonly taken in RoF, with good effects.

As to the damage model, after building a modern style fabric covered biplane, I can understand why they often pulled and escorted newer pilots away from their aircraft after their first combat - they didn't want them to see the number of holes in the fabric due to bullets.

However, computer pilots lack a couple of things, and gain a few, that real pilots either have or don't have. First, real pilots feel g forces and fear. They tend to go hand and hand for most people, including pilots (which is why very few peacetime pilots perform aerobatics), and while it's a lot of fun to throw an aircraft into steep turns, dives, zoom climbs, tail skids, and all manner of maneuvers in a simulation, it's a different kettle of fish in an actual aircraft. I've flown some mild aerobatics and it turns out I do not like it one bit. It's important to learn for the sake of precision flying, but just awful. Throw in that someone is shooting at one, there are a lot of other aircraft in close proximity to avoid, and it's no wonder death rates were so high.

When one reads about aircraft kills, there isn't a lot about maneuver. The few extended fights with aggressive maneuvers are well documented because they were so rare. If it were typical they wouldn't get much mention. No, there were a lot of turns, dives and climbs, but barrel rolls and split-S maneuvers were out.

To make up for this, the DM is weakened a bit, to make every hit count. It's a way of decreasing the frustration factor, and I understand and approve of it, to a certain degree. Shooting a rudder off of a biplane is hilariously wrong on so many levels, but if we reduced the places where one must hit to bring down an aircraft like these the kill rates would plummet. People would think the guns are powerless and the sim too difficult. Oddly enough, the DM for pilots is too tough. The Irish Linen around pilots seems to be made of kevelar. Firing through the bottom of aircraft into the cockpit rarely brings any result at all - when this was a favored tactic against recon aircraft.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

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#4396940 - 12/27/17 02:45 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted by Dart
To be fair, Beery, human players - with the luxury of a restart option - aren't much better in multi-player. Indeed, I was on a mixed server, with both AI and human planes, and was often fooled on which was AI and which was human operated.

Both out of a sense of personal challenge and experience in "Dead is Dead" tournaments back in the IL-2 days, I tend to either attempt to disengage if damaged or flat out avoid fights when the odds are against me (and the mission allows it). This is rare, no matter what the flight sim is.

Heck, the number of times when there were four of us humans flying formation in IL-2 and some lone guy below us would attack (when he could have tried to evade) were mind boggling. Nothing like being attacked from below by a Val when one is in a flight of four Corsairs.

But the AI does need improvement.

I like your ideas about dispersal of rounds, particularly on WWI aircraft. There's a reason why pilots flew so close to the enemy that they would have blood on their cowls after a successful kill, and it wasn't about poor marksmanship. A 300 meter shot should be pissing in the wind, and yet it's pretty commonly taken in RoF, with good effects.

As to the damage model, after building a modern style fabric covered biplane, I can understand why they often pulled and escorted newer pilots away from their aircraft after their first combat - they didn't want them to see the number of holes in the fabric due to bullets.

However, computer pilots lack a couple of things, and gain a few, that real pilots either have or don't have. First, real pilots feel g forces and fear. They tend to go hand and hand for most people, including pilots (which is why very few peacetime pilots perform aerobatics), and while it's a lot of fun to throw an aircraft into steep turns, dives, zoom climbs, tail skids, and all manner of maneuvers in a simulation, it's a different kettle of fish in an actual aircraft. I've flown some mild aerobatics and it turns out I do not like it one bit. It's important to learn for the sake of precision flying, but just awful. Throw in that someone is shooting at one, there are a lot of other aircraft in close proximity to avoid, and it's no wonder death rates were so high.

When one reads about aircraft kills, there isn't a lot about maneuver. The few extended fights with aggressive maneuvers are well documented because they were so rare. If it were typical they wouldn't get much mention. No, there were a lot of turns, dives and climbs, but barrel rolls and split-S maneuvers were out.

To make up for this, the DM is weakened a bit, to make every hit count. It's a way of decreasing the frustration factor, and I understand and approve of it, to a certain degree. Shooting a rudder off of a biplane is hilariously wrong on so many levels, but if we reduced the places where one must hit to bring down an aircraft like these the kill rates would plummet. People would think the guns are powerless and the sim too difficult. Oddly enough, the DM for pilots is too tough. The Irish Linen around pilots seems to be made of kevelar. Firing through the bottom of aircraft into the cockpit rarely brings any result at all - when this was a favored tactic against recon aircraft.


Quite insightful. Something else that should be pointed out is that nearly every pilot's kill count was wildly inflated (even with the supposedly draconian kill confirmation rules and static front of for most of WWI); for every legitimate kill that was not credited, there were several double counts, or planes damaged or that simply disengaged which were credited as kills. The point of saying this, is real air combat was not as bloody, in the short term anyway, as most believe. While bad days happened, it was not as if 2, 3, or 4 planes were being shot down in a flight every time a patrol went out. The casualties mounted due to the number of missions flown (punctuated by an extremely violent encounter every no and then), but the vast majority of pilots survived the vast majority of engagements.

#4396952 - 12/27/17 03:49 AM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Beery]  
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Originally Posted by Beery
This (along with the problems with ridiculously weak damage models and too effective shooting at long range that Maddox games always have) is the main reason I gave up on buying a better computer so I could play ROF regularly. Enemy pilots don't behave like real pilots. No human stays in a dogfight when they're in a plane that's badly damaged and can't turn. I mean, it's just ridiculous that an aircraft that can outclimb or outrun me sticks in a turning fight with me when he's badly damaged but can easily get away. And it's not as if modeling the desire to escape from a no-win situation is hard to do. The result is a visually beautiful WW1 air combat simulation that fails to simulate one of the most basic aspects of WW1 air combat. It's fricken ludicrous.


First thing: Maddox doesn't have anything to do with ROF nor ever has.

Secondly, there is an AI feature in the game telling the AI to RTB when damaged, but the mission designer has to enable it. Otherwise, yes, they will fight to the death.

#4397042 - 12/27/17 07:08 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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I bought BoK solely because of it’s rep for excellent VR. What I notice is that QM 1v1 fights still follow the RoF pattern of ace AI settling into circle fight until shot to bits. If the developers could improve this behavior they would have done so by now. I suspect the “will get to it eventually” posture provides cover for inability to effectively address AI coding. I have always felt that RoF ace AI sharpshooting is achieved by huge hit boxes placed around the player, making suspension of disbelief impossible for me. I suspect this “bubble” also is present online. Agree that there must be armor plating around AI pilots. The only reason for me to buy a resuscitated RoF would be the WW1 VR experience. I certainly would not preorder if VR (in dx11 engine) is the only inducement to buy.

#4405653 - 02/17/18 03:26 PM Re: Flying Circus Volume 1 [Re: Steve_F]  
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Glad to see that they are porting WW1 flight over to the new engine they announced.
VR will be a very welcome addition to the experience.

Been too long: Can't wait to get up in the air again with those crates and fight some familiar foes! smile

S!

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