Not a learning curve for the customer but for the developer.

I keep replying to your posts then you shift the conversation to another topic. I guess you don't want to defend any of your points??


Hahahahahaha..... fools! You don't like the product but buy it anyway hoping the developer will give you something better down the road? Where's the logic in that? Besides, this is clearly not 159th_Viper's stance... he's perfectly happy with paying full price for only parts of a module.


Sure, and as long as you're comfortable waiting years for it.


This again? This has proven to be false so many times before...


Since when did supporting the developers become the responsibility of the customer? Also, you are happy to support a mediocre product because you're afraid there won't be any alternatives? Therefore, ED's got you by the balls.... Both your options are wrong, but enjoy your time as ED squeezes your nuts.

Also, "supporting" ED does not keep ED afloat. It encourages their current business practice.... it rewards their current behavior and attitudes and we can see it in their roadmap and their forums.


Again, the point is that if you can have enough fun with a 40% complete product, imagine what fun you'll have with a 100% complete product! Supporting ED's current business model is not doing anyone any favors. People like 159th_Viper think it's a win for them because they get their "toys" early but they don't realize how they're paying full price for a product that won't be complete for years and years down the line, if ever. People like him don't care anyway because by that time, they'd have gotten bored of this module and are looking for the next "new" thing that they can half-learn but pay full price again.


Oh sure, just make a statement of a "hack job" without even quantifing it. That's very above-board! I've been playing Falcon 4 BMS since 4.32.2 and if you've found any part of it as a hack job, that'll be because of the learning curve (cliff?) of Falcon.... an issue we still deal with today but the community is very supportive of new players.

Since your cup of tea is FC3-level aircraft, Falcon 4 BMS can clearly overwhelm you. If you want to detail your issues with Falcon 4 BMS and how it's a hack job, please start a thread in the Falcon sub-forum and I'll be glad to address any issues.

I also ROFLMAO when you say BMS is a hack job..... what do you think of DCS then? Hahahahahahaha.....



True. The model itself isn't bad, it's ED milking the system for all it's worth that is the issue. Like I said before, I'd happily buy early access in games I know that will be finished and polished in good time, and I've done so for a few games. For ED, my purchase of DCS BS2 was my "support" purchase and although I don't regret buying the Shark, I'm not one to throw away money and hope to have a good result from a developer that has a track record of bad results....



And the ad hominem attacks commence....



Indeed! Hilarious how ED phrase it as if they're doing us a favor, as if this was a "feature" of their Hornet release. Then again, there are people who are happy to pay full price for less-than-half of a module, there are people who are happy to be taken advantage of over and over and over and over....

I guess Flogger's initial fears of ED going out of business may be unfounded so long as there are people out there willing to bend over.

lol hackjobwut? It is anything but. DCS might be pretty, but it is soulless and dead. Falcon BMS is alive, with a living, breathing campaign inside.

A quick review of this thread shows your statement to be blatantly false. We did have a few exchanges up to when you made your three assumptions... I replied to that but your next reply started going off on simplified avionics... so I responded to that... then you go and talk about an FC3 Hornet, I responded to that... and then you talk about happy to support ED and BMS/DCS or nothing. So that's at least three tangents you've gone off on, I follow and tackle your points, then you come back on a different topic.

You will notice that I respond almost line-by-line, so you can't accuse me of ignoring anything. Maybe you think that's the case, but that'll be because you've missed my point, replied to your mistaken interpretation, and I had to point out the idea to you again.



I'm sure you've been around long enough to know how open discussions on open forums work. Please don't expect me to explain this to you as well.



Please let's not confuse what YOU'RE doing and then accuse me of it. Where did you agree with me and yet I call you an idiot? Where did I put words in your mouth, insult you, dodge your points, ignoring reality? I would SO love for you to point each one out. You're making the accusations, prove it.



So what if I get a dev-to-artist ratio? That doesn't mean ED is following any of it! LOL! We don't even know how many employees ED has, how it's spread around, etc.... what we **DO** know beyond a shadow of a doubt is that they're bumbling around like n00bs with their thumbs up their behinds. Proof? Check out what they plan for initial release on the Hornet.... but doesn't matter as long as we got LEX vapor trails, right??!



I wished you the best with your enjoyment of FC3 and vapor trails. Just because you can't deal with full study-sim level, doesn't mean I'm dick measuring.... I don't need to!

As for being a sack of YOU, I'm sure you've got a better cockpit than mine So what if I'm not a real F-16 pilot? Are you? For someone who is in the USA, you have all the opportunities. I left the Philippines when I was 27, the US pulled out of their bases in the Philippines when I was 10-12, so there weren't really any F-16 opportunities for me in my home country. What's YOUR excuse?

Seriously, if you can't refute my points and resort to personal attacks and 180-degree accusations of falsehoods, it's no wonder you think this is a dick measuring contest.



Hahahahahahaha..... you cracked first, bro. What does that say about your 1st world sh!thole? Hahahahahaha..... Very nice of you to PM me this message on Steam too... scared of mods recognizing your post for the manure that it is?



I'm sorry, where's the pics of YOUR pit? I bet you're going to ignore THIS challenge, like you've done with the rest of the challenges I've posted.



Hahahahahahaha..... you talk as if 1st world doesn't have trash..... hahahahahahaha.... pure comedy gold, Flogger!




Hack job? The menu system is an adaptation of the Falcon 4.0 menu, being horizontal along the top as opposed to being vertical along the left side. As for buttons being off, that's never happened to me and there's been no complaints of it on the official BMS forums... this leads me to believe this is a PICNIC instance.

I just love how the rest of the post goes... "textures were muddy, sounds horrendous, 3D models from the 90s".... yeah, real legit complaints there. I suppose you've gone to the BMS forums to see how this issues could be fixed? I would bet you didn't. Falcon is WIP and DCS is complete? Hahahahahaha.... I'm really, really, really sorry, Flogger, but statements like these just makes you look like a stupid fanboy. You don't need my help at all!!

Your argument is basically "Falcon suxx, DCS rulz!!" You have won the argument, my friend! I hope you're happy! I honestly have no comeback for such a well thought-out and detailed argument.

I was on your Steam Friends List, I had added you months back if you don't recall (before you were an @sshat). I copy/pasted my message as your PM box was full, just to be sure you read it in the event it gets deleted. I have since blocked you. Post my response to you anywhere you want if it makes you feel better. The best part of your sh!t slinging fest is when you admitted to trolling.



The moment everyone gets to see ICE's intention of posting on the DCS forum. Good old fashion trolling.

And if you had western civilization so much, leave.

Now, go play pretend pilot on your hackjob "cockpit". Try not to remember there are real pilots out there flying actual planes because you couldn't hack it. Or are too stupid. Or too low speed. Whatever your logic was.

Edit, and to quote for yet another contradiction:



Again with the dick measuring. Either I struck a nerve or your trolling has just imploded for everyone to see.

Oh, this isn't about making me feel better, this is now about exposing YOU I hope you enjoy it!



Yet another baseless accusation. You do know just because you say so, doesn't make it so, right? This isn't the same as when you wish DCS was all the things it wasn't.




"If I **HAD** western civilization"??? Do you even English, bro? Maybe you need some 3rd-world English lessons.

Also, have a read of my posts before your mental breakdown, and then go look up trolling. Take your time. I'd draw you a picture, but I'm all out of crayons.
(hint: that last sentence was trolling. I'm saying this just to be sure we're on the same page.... as we started this discussion with you insisting on using a sarcastic post as "evidence" and I had to spend the next few posts clearing up that mess.)



Hahahahahahahaha.... I called it!! Where's *YOUR* awesome cockpit picture again? Hahahahahahahahahaha......
Also, are YOU a pilot? What's *YOUR* excuse? Pity you can't use the 3rd-world origins as an excuse! Hahahahahahahaha.....

ps. This may or may not be true, but I may or may not have some hours on powered aircraft. I also may or may not have some hours on gliders. Pity that you'll never know the truth.... it's out there somewhere!



I'm sorry, but I'm not related to you and therefore I lack skills in self-fukkery. You, on the other hand, look so natural at it!

Have a great day!

Oh, you edited this part in.... let me address that....

No, no dick measuring at all. To say "dick measuring" implies that you have a dick to begin with. As there's obviously nothing there between your legs, the dick measuring exercise is moot; I win by default.

Now stop side-stepping like a true DCS fanboi and post a pic of YOUR pit and show us all how much of a hackjob MY pit is. Let's see if YOU have the balls to post your crap, or if all you're good for is making noise by the sidelines.

Have a great day!

Lunch breaks would never be the same without the DCS threads
Thank you guys !

Cheers,
Slug

And he continues to post the same things over and over again. You're just digging a bigger hole.

And no, I don't have a home built cockpit. I never challenged you to build one and I never accepted a challenge of yours. No, I am not a pilot. My experience is limited to steering around in a Cessna 152/172. Experience or lack of has never been my point. You insulted me by, and I'm paraphrasing, saying I and similar people who enjoy more simplified flight sims are idiots. Additionally, you said the reason I never had an interest in Falcon 4 was because I was too stupid. I could not gain an interest not because it was complex, but because I felt it was shoddy and an incomplete experience. My point is that if you are going by these metrics, I am unintelligent because of my flight simulator of choice. But you are still not top of the food chain, because real pilots triumph over anyone who sits their ass behind a computer pretending they're flying. So by your logic, you don't have much to boost about.

But, compared to the quality of DCS and BMS, your cockpit does look like crap all things considered.

Nice try. There aren't many threads here on the DCS forum at SimHQ. Search recent threads made in the last 6-8 months and you will see I criticize DCS when I feel it is warranted. Really, look it up and post the thread. At least put effort into your accusation.



You're the one who can't follow an argument. As for the part in bold, lol. Still going back to the compensating argument. Wow, you have mastered Falcon 4. I enjoy FC3. I feel terrible now, that makes my arguments invalid! Just read what you write.

I hate to be an @ss, but those @sshole comments I wrote earlier fit the bill the more you respond.

What?? Monkeys don't live in holes!! Pfft!!


Wow, I'm impressed! A bit of honesty on your part! Let me get this straight...... the guy who DOES NOT have a home built cockpit feels qualified to call a "hackjob" on someone who DOES have a homebuilt cockpit?? Are you even serious?


Who said anything about challenging anyone to build one? Damn, bro, you need to work on your reading and comprehension skills.....


Where is that exact quote? Has it not occurred to you that maybe you're misinterpreting what I've typed??


And in your next reply, you will link me to your threads here and/or in the BMS forums asking for help in this matter. Complaining about something because you can't get it to work WITHOUT showing evidence of your attempts to get help regarding the matter is simply absurd.


Emphasis mine. That is YOUR interpretation. I've never said anything like that, and I would never act "top of the food chain" at all because I still know what it's like to be going up. I simply prefer high-fidelity. You like FC3? Great! More power to you! I absolutely loved my time in the A10A and the Su-27/Su-33 and I would never look down on people on their way up or simply preferring to stay at FC3 level.

Now do both of us a favor..... re-read my responses but do it again under the premise that you've been misreading everything I've said. You may find a different message in there all along.


Honestly dude, the insults are getting tiring, especially from one who doesn't have a cockpit to start with. I initially thought of using an analogy where someone with a 1990 Honda Civic was badmouthing someone with a R36 Skyline GT-R, only to find out that the guy dissing the GT-R takes public transportation. Seal clubbing isn't my idea of fun.

So what if your previous threads were more sane? Your recent ones here would make ED moderators proud.

Ad hominem attacks, name calling, side-stepping questions, limited comprehension, going rogue, building strawmen, the list goes on. I take down your post almost line-by-line and you respond with 3rd-world this and hackjob that and boo-hoo he's not a real pilot. You're not even a fanboy, you're a fanboi.



When a picture is worth a thousand words....

I'm sure we can both tell the difference between a car that rolled out from a BMW factory and one that rolled out of bubba's garage. You don't need to be a mechanic to know a garbage car or *insert other object* here. Do you agree? I thought so.

And if you want to talk about honesty, tell me where I have been dishonest. You are the one claiming I added you on Steam just to insult you (you have poor memory, lol), are claiming I am a fanboi when I made a large thread a few months back critiquing a certain module. What else? I can't even remember now. And unlike myself, you never seem to own up to your mistakes.

Now, do prove how I messed up my BMS installed. If you have a post or thread I made in the past do post it here for all to see.

Sigh.... I suggest you leave now or you're going to miss your bus.

A racecar driver commenting on the pros and cons of a BMW vs. bubba's handiwork holds infinitely more credibility than the guy who takes public transport. Learn the difference. I would've given you more credit if you had a simpit, any simpit... but to diss my simpit when you don't even have one? You're just at the sidelines yelling "you suck!" and it stopped being funny and is now just sad. Stop projecting on me Flogger and take a long, hard look inwards.


I'm still waiting on your quotes/screenshots proving all the things you're saying that I've said. Until you do so, just claiming I said this or that without proof is dishonest.


My apologies for that one. You were not on my friends list and I know you can message people without them being your friends.... I was not aware that blocking me would remove you from my friends list.


Link? And while you're at it, links to your threads asking for help for your BMS issues. Otherwise, I'm going to file that under dishonest as well.


Missing textures, click areas not aligned to text, you said all of these yourself. Now prove to me how those behaviors are evidence of a 100% working install? Now prove to me you've asked for assistance in rectifying these issues? Or did you just unwittingly do a botched install, fired up BMS, encountered all these problems, and then assumed that's how BMS came out of the box? Then you come here claiming BMS was a hackjob? That's dishonest.

Also, you're the one making the claim, YOU dig up your threads or posts. I'm not doing your research for you.

Right, and what exactly does that mean? I don't think everything about the sim is bad. And that makes me a "fanboi"? Even after I made a complaint thread here and on the ED forums about the poor M2000 documentation so late after release, apparently I am still a fanboi. Yes, the thread you replied to. The only one who seems to be a "fanboi" here is you. Can't possibly be anything wrong with BMS, nothing is WIP. No horrible sound effects, muddy cockpit textures or anything like that. Never existed. If it did, the user was an idiot. Ha!

I am still waiting for you to find a post/thread showing how my BMS install was incorrect. Considering how you missed my M2000C complaint thread, I can't imagine you will find said posts/threads anytime soon. But do message me when you do. Then you can explain what I did wrong and I will happily give BMS another shot.



That is exactly what you started doing. You still have not even replied to most of my points. You side step and when I ask you to clarify or explain your position, you respond with doses of sarcasm at best. I am no longer going to bother to ask you to clarify anything. If you feel so inclined, you can re-read the first few long back and fourths and provide some substantial responses.

I am sorry, but I have stopped reading your last few posts fully because you will continue doing the exact things you claim you won't do. I believe the last one I fully read was your epic management solution to ED. Which amounted to fluffy marketing words that would make any CEO proud. But, I'd still like to see how you would manage the ED studio and finances. It would be interesting to read in any case.

You can get to that after:

1) You find my ED critique posts. If you're having trouble, head to the ED forums because you'll likely find more there. But be aware, it is mixed in with some praise, some wishful posting, and some random fan made skins I post. The horror.

2) Find a post/thread showing how I messed up my BMS install and correct me.

Until then you are merely throwing accusations. Quit side stepping and correct me. Post it right here on the forums for everyone to read.

I've seen all those issues in various other games. Missing textures, misaligned UI buttons due to resolution scaling, and more. No, those are not symptoms of a botched install. You seem to not realize that bugs/issues may not appear on one person's install. Not all issues are 100% repeatable. I am not sure what the issues were, bugs or if it was WIP. I recall it being WIP. But it was not a silky smooth experience in the slightest. If you cannot wrap your head around that you are the one being dishonest. You cannot sit there with a straight face and spew those words out if you had any experience with software. And we both know you do.

As for the links, you find them. You accused me of being a fanboi and being too stupid to install BMS. Since you are accusing me of those things, you are going to have to prove it. I have already found the M2000 thread... yes, the one you posted in. But I'm sure you can find it if you'd like. As I mentioned, go to the ED forums and view my posts there. Dozens go against the "fanboi" mindset.

You're the one accusing me of these things. If you can't prove those two things, then that shows how little weight your arguments have. You do not accuse someone of being a fanboi or botching the install with no substantial evidence only to ask them to prove that is not true. I suppose that is an alien concept to you. If you're making the accusation, prove it. Innocent until proven guilty is a sentiment strong in the West. I don't follow the "lets murder people in the streets because they look like a drug dealer" line of thought, if you catch my drift.


But I do not recall if I ever made a thread asking for help about BMS. I never posted much of anything about it. The only notable thing I can recall posting is complaining about the blurry textures of the F-16 cockpit which I considered to be a notable downside because it required the use of a clickable cockpit. Someone (probably yourself) replied saying you thought it looked amazing. And it wasn't horrible, but it was a notable step down from whatever I used in DCS at that point. But the legibility of the words on the various panels at distance were simply inferior to DCS. Maybe this has changed in one of the many updates since.

In any case, prove to me those two points if possible. You can even define the criteria for fanboi. Reply to that in this thread for everyone to see. Once you get those out of the way, maybe we can move onto something else. Or you can side step as usual. Your move.




Added to my Steam wish list. It looks like a decent start. I for one hope it ends it a complete, whole experience before they start adding a whole lot of planes and theaters. Smart AI, BMPs that don't snipe fighters out of the sky, a good mission editor, a nice campaign, and quality production values. If that ends up being the case, I fully welcome this as a third option.

In before some people tear that game down, the developers, and the mentally undeveloped people who may enjoy a non-study sim. I'll even wish the developers good luck, and hope they can expand and add many great features in the future. That ought to ruff some feathers!

I'm sure you can figure that one out.


Still waiting on your links about your complaint thread and your links about you asking for help regarding your BMS issues. Heck, tell you what.... I've just located my BMS 4.32 installers. Tell me what version of 4.32 you encountered the problems, I'll install that version, and make a video to show the hackjob menu, mis-aligned click zones, muddy cockpit textures, horrendous sounds... and if you tell me which 3D models were the offending ones, I'll include that on the video as well. Time to put your money where your mouth is, buddy. Put up, or shut up. I'll even make a thread on the Falcon sub-forum for us to continue this discussion.

I am clearly a BMS fanboy and if you give me a legit issue with BMS, I'll gladly admit to it. Now let's see if you have the same level of honesty.



Hahahaha... you clearly don't know how this works. YOU mentioned your BMS install had issues. YOU prove to me your install was correct. Or better yet, tell me what version you were using and I'll show you how it's supposed to look like.

I could say you could download 4.33.3 and give that a fair shot, but let's not do that. Let's get the worst-case scenario.... you could try 4.33.3 and there won't be any issues and you could just say "they fixed the issues I was having" and I won't let you weasel out like that. Put up or shut up.



Oh did I? Where? Link? Post? Quote? Screenshot? Put up or shut up.



Hahahahaha.... you do know you've just admitted to your dishonesty, right? Engaging me in conversation without even fully reading my posts? And **THEN** you accuse me of not replying/side-stepping/etc. Epic trolling!



Hahahahaha.... you're the one that said BMS was a hackjob
You're the one that said your cockpit had missing textures.... but no screenshot to prove it.

You obviously don't know how burden of proof works. Please try to get your brain to at least high-school level comprehension, gather your wits about you, and in your next reply, please include the following:

1. Definition of "burden of proof"
2. The BMS version you claim to have issues with
3. The links to you asking for help resolving these issues, either on the SimHQ forum or BMS forum
4. The link to your M2000C complaint
5. Quotes and links to where I have done ad hominem attacks, name calling, side-stepping questions, etc.

Feel free to start a new thread for this here or in the Falcon sub-forum. Like I said, I'm not doing your research for you.
Put up or shut up.

Read my posts above. It is you that has to put up or shut up. I don't need to prove anything to myself, it is you who must prove to the rest of us why I am:

1) A pure DCS fanboi.

2) Find a post/thread showing how I messed up my BMS install and correct me.

As I mentioned in my last posts, address those two simple points. You've side stepped it countless times now. When you do that I will entertain your other points.

Until then, keep repeating the same thing over and over again. It should be a simple task....

I hate stereotypes, but sometimes they are true and it can be hilarious.

I don't wish to continue to stir a hornets nest but the latest replies (by 159th_Viper) to my latest post deserve in my opinion a reply from my part.




No I don't get "worked out" over PC games. I do get "worked out" with double standard statements/opinions.
For example, you seem to indicate (at least that's what I get from your post) that if I can't get enjoyment from DCS than I should " consider another hobby".
Let me tell you this: I have lots of games, including NON-DCS sims (yes, those things EXISTS!!) which I enjoy and play without suffering from all DCS frustrations - Oh and in a more completely, non-alpha, non-beta state with fully working air-to-ground radars and TWS radars!





So I rest my case!

You cannot (or you should not) come here or to any other place defending that people should buy DCS incomplete modules in order to support the genre when you don't do the same when it comes to other combat flight simulations (which are also in a alpha/beta stage). The same applies to the vast majority of people who so staunchly defend DCS (incomplete) modules which I'm pretty sure that don't and won't give a chance to any other developers and sims like CAP2 for example. This is having double standards!

By the way, if you have so many things to attend to and PC games being relatively low on your list of priorities, what are you doing here defending DCS so much??