#4366626 - 06/28/17 09:01 PM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: astra]
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Suicidal_6
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Gulfport
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Deacon and Andy were actual fighter pilots. Enough said.
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S6
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#4366635 - 06/28/17 10:26 PM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: Suicidal_6]
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Posts: 694
Schwalbe
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Deacon and Andy were actual fighter pilots. Enough said. Oh great. "The pilot, his highness, is always better than you, no matter what the reasoning." Sarcasm aside, what knowledge of their past experience have they actually brought to this discussion. I've talked and flown with active service F-16 pilots. I learned a great deal and I literally wanted to scream from the revelation of knowledge, and naturally, I pay them great respect. I fail to see this here is one of those. Now if you excuse me, I have my own, non-piloting.. stuff to do.
Last edited by Schwalbe; 06/28/17 10:29 PM.
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#4368548 - 07/11/17 03:29 AM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: astra]
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 20
ODonovan
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Tampa, Florida, USA, North Ame...
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Roll rate and zoom climbs were the Zeros advantages. Frankly, they sucked at tight turns. Anything over 6Gs would rip their wings off, while the US planes could easily pull 9Gs. An example of US planes' superior construction is when Swede Vejtasa took out three zeroes while in a Dauntless dive bomber, by out turning them. The Dauntless could pull 12Gs, and he used all of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDPyvyt-MQ - 10:24 -Irish
.........................................................................odonovan1 on World War II Online - Formerly @Power Play on City of Heroes.........................................................................
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#4369710 - 07/18/17 02:03 AM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: Deacon211]
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Joined: Mar 2001
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bisher
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I'll be your Huckleberry
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Manitoba, Canada
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If you have the book Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering by Shaw. Sounds like an interesting read
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#4369711 - 07/18/17 02:12 AM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: Schwalbe]
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,179
bisher
I'll be your Huckleberry
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I'll be your Huckleberry
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,179
Manitoba, Canada
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Deacon and Andy were actual fighter pilots. Enough said. Oh great. "The pilot, his highness, is always better than you, no matter what the reasoning." Sarcasm aside, what knowledge of their past experience have they actually brought to this discussion. I've talked and flown with active service F-16 pilots. I learned a great deal and I literally wanted to scream from the revelation of knowledge, and naturally, I pay them great respect. I fail to see this here is one of those. Now if you excuse me, I have my own, non-piloting.. stuff to do. Oh great, we get the occasional post by Andy Bush, but get to hear on and on from members like Schwalbe. This is why SimHQ is failing for me, this guy should be suspended for being disrespectful to our members. You do not need to call somebody a name to be derogatory
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#4369757 - 07/18/17 11:28 AM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: bisher]
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Posts: 694
Schwalbe
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Oh great, we get the occasional post by Andy Bush, but get to hear on and on from members like Schwalbe. This is why SimHQ is failing for me, this guy should be suspended for being disrespectful to our members. You do not need to call somebody a name to be derogatory
Won't respond to this. As said better things to do.
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#4387281 - 10/30/17 01:47 AM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: astra]
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,588
462cid
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USA
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Old discussion...
My understanding has always been that "maneuverability", in a fighter aircraft, results from the ability to change the aircraft's vector and attitude quickly. In another sense, this means a fairly unstable platform, as a stable one would resist the changes inherently. Roll rate advantage would then be a desirable thing for a fighter.
In the sim world I routinely use roll rate to go into a bank, then continue the roll "under" to bank opposite if I am flying say a Bf-109E vs a Spit I or a P-40B vs a Ki-43. I can usually then flick out where I choose, ruining a pursuer's firing solution. If he's greedy, I might trick him into something dumb. But better to never have let him behind me! When I have to resort to that, it's because I made bad decisions. Or, during a merge, I can go into a right or left bank, hold it to reel in the head-on enemy, then roll out "under" to opposite, ruining his solution and maybe inviting him to waste E correcting his solution hopelessly. Then maybe I end the roll under with a quick low yo-yo to put E "in the bank" while he's blown his, and onto his tail. Worth a try.
But in general, offensively, going into a fast hard bank to quickly change heading seems very fighter-ish when I ID a new target and desire to position myself to bounce him. I'd say that tactically, I use it offensively to cut off a target inside his turn circle (I travel less distance through the air going to 90* than he can, after all) if I can time that and have enough elevator authority, and defensively to roll out of a bad situation. It's also nice to have a defensive maneuver handy that may well result in offense, which should be the fighter pilot's goal. Strategically, I use it to position myself to secure advantage quickly before engaging.
What kind of car is that? What does it matter? When I drive it, I'm Steve McQueen
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#4523726 - 06/04/20 04:13 AM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,338
W-Molders
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I.E. Commiefornia ..S.B Count...
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You can time your entry into a bandit's TC better that way. You can perform defensive maneuvers better. You can counter defensive maneuvers better. whats TC
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#4533564 - 08/14/20 05:31 AM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: Lieste]
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W-Molders
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Buy a copy of Shaw's Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manoeuvring - an excellent study of the implications of similar and dissimilar performance and single and multi-aircraft tactics.
Turn rate can be more *easily* exploited, and because of it peak having higher energy gives advantages in multi-aircraft environments, while turn radius requires lower energy state. However an advantage in turn radius can be exploited, even by a poorer turning fighter if the other carries too much energy, if it is used in the right time and place. bro... talk to me as if you were talking to a child... so, in essence turn rate (a fast turner) is generally better than a plane with a tighter radius? or the opposite.. thanks I would think that with turn rate, you can use other tactics to get guns on target like a small/quick hi yo yo
Last edited by W-Molders; 08/14/20 05:33 AM.
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#4533581 - 08/14/20 11:35 AM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: astra]
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Posts: 3,340
Lieste
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Being double advantaged is good. Being double disadvantaged is bad (Higher T/W, Lower WL is double advantage, Lower T/W and Higher WL is double disadvantage).
It is possible to win from double disadvantage if you minimise exposure, seek optimal geometry but it is an uphill battle (usually literally).
It is easier to win from double advantage, but poor geometry selection (being greedy, usually) can put you at risk. Additional unseen bogeys can take snapshots while you manoeuvre against the first target, and in tracking shots your path is predictable and close to the (lower) performance of your target.
With a single advantage you can avoid the options which favour your opponent, and select those which favour you. This is initially the use of all aspect weapons pre-merge, then the decision of whether to turn nose-nose or nose to tail (or just to extend straight out of the fight) according to whether you want to be 'inside' his turn radius (you have a turn rate inferiority/low energy), or to brute force turn rate if you have excess energy, or a higher T/W or lower WL. Either tactic can be made decisive in a few turns, sometimes even within the first turn, but especially nose-nose turns (inside the radius) can have very tight manoeuvring and places a burden on minimum range boundaries and crossing angles/all aspect capability.
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#4540021 - 10/09/20 04:22 AM
Re: Of what use is roll rate?
[Re: astra]
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Posts: 2,222
Bard
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a quicker roll rate allows you to establish a lift vector positioning lag in your opponent, and prevent your opponent establishing one on you.
what practical use? makes it easier to follow a target - particularly at high speeds where an opponents turn rate is suffering, and conversely makes it easier to get out of the way at high speeds.
a great defensive maneuver for an aircraft with better roll rate is to lure an opponent into a tracking shot at high turn rate and as soon as the attacker takes lead you reverse with a 180 degree roll, pull back until you've reversed and then nose down and extend away.
offensively you can use the roll rate in a head on merge, when you pull into what looks like a climb after merging when you are vertical you roll your aircraft 90 degrees, pull back until you are canopy down, roll the opposite direction 90 degrees and circle around. an opponent will usually turn their climb into a loop. if they do, geometry will enable you to roll into a control position on their six when they bottom out in the loop. without a high roll rate this can be difficult to pull off.
What WW2 Fighter pilots say about Angels and Airspeed:
"Nice job of getting down to the basics - love your choice of a cover!" Col. Clarence 'Bud' Anderson
"I have enjoyed reading angels and airspeed, it should prove good reading for all interested in combat tactics and their application related to the fluid air environment and state of technology in WWII years. All the best as you make it available." - Col. Charles McGee - Tuskegee Airman
NEVER ENGAGE STUPID.
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