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#4366626 - 06/28/17 09:01 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Suicidal_6 Offline
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Deacon and Andy were actual fighter pilots. Enough said.


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#4366635 - 06/28/17 10:26 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Suicidal_6]  
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Schwalbe Offline
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Originally Posted by Suicidal_6
Deacon and Andy were actual fighter pilots. Enough said.

Oh great. "The pilot, his highness, is always better than you, no matter what the reasoning."
Sarcasm aside, what knowledge of their past experience have they actually brought to this discussion.
I've talked and flown with active service F-16 pilots. I learned a great deal and I literally wanted to scream from the revelation of knowledge, and naturally, I pay them great respect. I fail to see this here is one of those.
Now if you excuse me, I have my own, non-piloting.. stuff to do.

Last edited by Schwalbe; 06/28/17 10:29 PM.
#4368548 - 07/11/17 03:29 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Tampa, Florida, USA, North Ame...

Roll rate and zoom climbs were the Zeros advantages. Frankly, they sucked at tight turns. Anything over 6Gs would rip their wings off, while the US planes could easily pull 9Gs. An example of US planes' superior construction is when Swede Vejtasa took out three zeroes while in a Dauntless dive bomber, by out turning them. The Dauntless could pull 12Gs, and he used all of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDPyvyt-MQ - 10:24



-Irish


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.........................................................................odonovan1 on World War II Online - Formerly @Power Play on City of Heroes.........................................................................
#4368728 - 07/12/17 12:13 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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VF9_Longbow Offline
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I am not sure about that Irish.

The Zero was famous for problems with roll rate at higher speeds. Anything faster than normal cruise speed flight caused stiff controls and it was also very affected by torque. The stiff control problem was so severe that it was nearly impossible to achieve any aileron deflection. Accounts I have read stated that the pilots resorted to mashing on the rudder to turn at high speed, but there are some accounts of the aircraft falling apart after high speed rudder deflections. Incidentally the P-51 also had problems with shedding the tail of the aircraft during high speed rudder deflections. Anecdotal evidence from the pacific theater tells of American pilots always turning off to the right because the JP pilots couldn't roll the aircraft to the right as fast as they could to the left. I think the hydraulic assist of the P-38 may have been one of the reasons it fared so well against the Zero and other similarly designed JP aircraft.

I am not so sure high G ability is all that useful in a WW2 fighter either. It may have its place, but the Zero's turning circle is TINY, at CORNER SPEED. As far as I know there were no US frontline aircraft that could outturn a Zero at corner speed. In jets high-g may be important but when you only have 900-1200hp keeping your plane moving, pulling G's is not going to improve your situation most of the time. You end up with very high AoA and a bad guy following you in a lag pursuit will just change to lead and shoot you down.

#4369710 - 07/18/17 02:03 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Deacon211]  
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bisher Offline
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Originally Posted by Deacon211
If you have the book Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering by Shaw.


Sounds like an interesting read



#4369711 - 07/18/17 02:12 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Schwalbe]  
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bisher Offline
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Originally Posted by Schwalbe
Originally Posted by Suicidal_6
Deacon and Andy were actual fighter pilots. Enough said.

Oh great. "The pilot, his highness, is always better than you, no matter what the reasoning."
Sarcasm aside, what knowledge of their past experience have they actually brought to this discussion.
I've talked and flown with active service F-16 pilots. I learned a great deal and I literally wanted to scream from the revelation of knowledge, and naturally, I pay them great respect. I fail to see this here is one of those.
Now if you excuse me, I have my own, non-piloting.. stuff to do.


Oh great, we get the occasional post by Andy Bush, but get to hear on and on from members like Schwalbe. This is why SimHQ is failing for me, this guy should be suspended for being disrespectful to our members. You do not need to call somebody a name to be derogatory





#4369757 - 07/18/17 11:28 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: bisher]  
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Schwalbe Offline
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Originally Posted by bisher

Oh great, we get the occasional post by Andy Bush, but get to hear on and on from members like Schwalbe. This is why SimHQ is failing for me, this guy should be suspended for being disrespectful to our members. You do not need to call somebody a name to be derogatory

Won't respond to this. As said better things to do.

#4369833 - 07/18/17 05:34 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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VF9_Longbow Offline
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Keep it civil guys, if you don't like what you see ignore it.

#4387281 - 10/30/17 01:47 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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462cid Offline
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Old discussion...

My understanding has always been that "maneuverability", in a fighter aircraft, results from the ability to change the aircraft's vector and attitude quickly. In another sense, this means a fairly unstable platform, as a stable one would resist the changes inherently. Roll rate advantage would then be a desirable thing for a fighter.

In the sim world I routinely use roll rate to go into a bank, then continue the roll "under" to bank opposite if I am flying say a Bf-109E vs a Spit I or a P-40B vs a Ki-43. I can usually then flick out where I choose, ruining a pursuer's firing solution. If he's greedy, I might trick him into something dumb. But better to never have let him behind me! When I have to resort to that, it's because I made bad decisions. Or, during a merge, I can go into a right or left bank, hold it to reel in the head-on enemy, then roll out "under" to opposite, ruining his solution and maybe inviting him to waste E correcting his solution hopelessly. Then maybe I end the roll under with a quick low yo-yo to put E "in the bank" while he's blown his, and onto his tail. Worth a try.

But in general, offensively, going into a fast hard bank to quickly change heading seems very fighter-ish when I ID a new target and desire to position myself to bounce him. I'd say that tactically, I use it offensively to cut off a target inside his turn circle (I travel less distance through the air going to 90* than he can, after all) if I can time that and have enough elevator authority, and defensively to roll out of a bad situation. It's also nice to have a defensive maneuver handy that may well result in offense, which should be the fighter pilot's goal. Strategically, I use it to position myself to secure advantage quickly before engaging.


What kind of car is that? What does it matter? When I drive it, I'm Steve McQueen
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