Wow.... interesting flurry of activity, and when Daz referred to him as "Cadet David," I even missed that one! I guess DCS is so interesting and awesome that he just has to come here again and again, huh? To be fair, he did try a new tactic this time with STOLEN vs. PAID criteria.


If you are fine with paying to be a free beta tester, if you are fine with paying full price for a module that isn't going to be full-feature for at least a few years, if you are going into this with open expectations, then fair enough and more power to you. At least you are honest enough to say these things, and for that, much respect.

I do hope you realize that we only try to discourage these things in order to send a message to ED.... you participating as you do kinda weakens the message. Maybe if ED had an internal or open beta testing phase, where people could try out the modules before it's fully released, then they (ED) won't get as much flak. Doing the beta testing while asking people to pay for the priviledge, however, that's another thing.


Nice to see you acknowledge that, Nate!

Why people should not buy early access?? Because they simply intoxicate the market with devs and publishers that simply exploit even when they can easily afford avoid early access. Unfortunately it seems that there is no way back, people just love to be f****ed to death and buy things blindly and the worst is when the product is horrible but fanboys comes is defending devs/publisher by simply going against their own interest.

Devs and publishers know that and simply exploit it even those who can afford avoiding early access. I could understand for some case but the thing just got out of control and now the market is full or buck of bugs games that either will take years to be fixed or even never been fixed. So they pay to be beta testers (unprepared beta testers but they feel so professional since they are part of the community and somehow the development) for full price and for some ludicrous discount.

The saddest part is that they fail to realize that the same game years ago would have taken less time and be released with a smaller bug list (specially major bugs)...but people love to poison their own interest


Obviously i'm referring to the whole gaming market and not just ED world

I'm not against beta testing or early access. Having to pay for the pleasure of bug reporting is another matter.

Paying to get the product in beta stage simply decreases or even removes the incentive of the publisher to finish and polish their product, and ED has shown this to be true time and again.

Yeah, best send money happy guinea pigs first... I am happy to wait till some major bugs ironed out first, then will think about getting it (ie when on sale...)...
(sorry edit if I knew it was going to be quality first release then I would be happy to support with cash, but considering past experience, will wait to throw cash at them, I'm not just a tight a*s waiting for next sale..., but I don't just throw money with blind enthusiasm!!!)

Im no financial maniac but you guys seriously think people buying EA release suddenly fulfill development cost that took years, and start making profit so they dont work on project anymore?

And why would they suddenly work on Project B when Project A is not yet finished? Why is work being done on terrains and campaigns when the core engine keeps getting delayed?

The answer is (and I am not saying ED is doing it right) that you have to keep moving forward with the eye toward future revenue. I happen to know the head of a major game studio (an Activision/Blizzard subsidiary) and the next project is in the works long before the previous project is considered complete.

Yes, but there's less incentive for the devs (and especially so in ED's case) to keep the focus on completing a project when you already have received a lot of revenue for it and there is still some way to go

Yes but the major game studio finishes Project A. You've missed the point again. It is not about starting Project B, it is about not finishing Project A. Nobody would care if ED has Project A at 90%, Project B at 40%, and Project C at 10% if we were confident that ED would finish Project A, then work on finishing Project B, then work on finishing Project C. However, ED has left Project A at 90%, worked on Project B from 40% to 50%, Project C was at 10% and is now at 85%, and yet all three are still not finished. So your answer may apply to a major game studio, but it does not apply in ED's case as ED is obviously not doing it right.

As before, just because others are doing it does not excuse ED for copying it and copying it badly.

Selling an incomplete product does produce a whole set of issues that are a bit out of line with the way most companies (outside of the gaming industry) do business. You can't sell a car if the transmission will be delivered in the future. I will agree that this can create a mindset that is counterproductive to the long term bottom line, IMHO. Steam is full of offerings from companies that never end up finishing the product and this is, indeed, a bad precedent.

I currently work, when I wish, on various projects and my contracts always stipulate a partial payment at the start (usually less than 25% of the projected total cost) and the remainder is not due until the customer/contract has been satisfied. The gaming industry has evolved it's own set of rules that, in my mind, seem to defy logic in many ways. Unfortunately, it appears to be working for most of the companies involved.

I can't dispute that. You are quite correct. However, you are very prone to nitpicking issues that really are not significant (i.e. graphics work as opposed to ground radar coding).

When I was very young I worked as draftsman (back in the pencil/pen on paper era) and there were often times when our department was waiting on the engineers to complete their work. The company did not fire the group of us, they found other work for us to do.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What does Steam Greenlight or indie devs have to do with ED? A dev company made up of maybe 2-5 guys starting out with their first game and you compare that to ED?



And what would happen if you failed to deliver on your contract well after the time stipulated on the contract? What would happen if you were 5 years overdue?



So you're saying ground radar is not important but graphics work is?



Ah yes, because my point was that the very moment there is no work to do, fire those people? Is that how you really understood what I said? Can you not comprehend that maybe in your instance, there were enough of your group for the work that was anticipated, but not enough engineers? Do you understand the concept of a bottleneck?

Wow ......

So pre-order half finished harrier for 49.99 ...... or

Pay 69.99 at release


So the early access sales were not as big as they hoped and they stuck the price up more to encourage( Scare) more
people into pre-purchase to save more money ....

You have absolutely no basis for anything you just posted outside of the 10 dollar final price increase. Everything else you posted is pure ASS-umption.

And here I was about to post about how wonderful it is to have reasonable, balanced discourse free of speculation and hyperbole in the Sim Hq DCS Forum.

Everything anyone else posts is pure ASS-umptions unless one is privvy to the inner workings of ED.... however, with these guesses, some are more plausible than others.

You want reasonable, balanced discourse? leaf speculated that the $10 increase is to "encourage" people to pre-order and thus "save" more money. Why do YOU think ED put the price up by $10?

Discussions here tend to border more on the negative, as the disillusioned find SimHQ after the wonderful moderation being done on the official ED forums. That's not to say that it is blind and outright negativity, but you'll have to be able to stand your ground and be able to stand up to scrutiny, logic, and common sense. We are all fans of ED, but fanboi-ism is a totally different thing.

$69 is a reasonable price for a product that has been five years in the making.

considering that it might take another year or two for it to be out of beta, by then a $99.99 price would be fair, since the developer by then will have spent 7 years on it.



that is what beta means - not finished

that is why I try not to buy betas of any games or flight sims, to avoid frustration,

Eh,

It's no big deal. In every single hobby/pastime I have, the fanbase is like this. With no exceptions whatsoever.

We can have different ways of looking at the same situation I guess it means we care.

I also ASS-ume the price is to "encourage" people to buy early and as such I also ASS-ume that their pre-release-party didn't really turn out as they hoped for.

Personally I will wait for a summer sale of $20 which I feel a single aircraft, at best, is worth.

Maybe the glourious June of 2028 when I am half-dead.

Could it be that these modules are so complex to create it becomes impossible to bring it all home financially?

Personally I would buy a $20 4-pack FC3 level planes every quarter if offered (the DCS environment isn't on the level of these modules anyhow, hardly at FC3 level even with ECM reducing lock range with 15% or what hardcoded and AI climbing hard losing all speed when missile inbound and why not jettison all those ARM weapons while at it?).

Okay,

So long as we are having an ASS-umption-Fest.

If the pre-release has been disappointing (and I have no idea one way or the other), I'd ASS-ume the real reason is the looming release of the F-18C. If you have limited income, are married to a shrew, etc, your purchase options are going to be limited.

I ASS-ume the F-18C is going to be wildly successful, and will absolutely bury any module it competes with. Imagine if you were Belsimtec and ED informed you that the F-18 was going to be released concurrently, or worse off BEFORE the AV-8. Talk about 5 years worth of work down the tubes....

Your ASS-umptions may vary.

This thread starts to deliver
I think you have a good point on the F/A-18 contra other modules Clutch, people will probably bury them into it not looking at other stuff for 6 months.