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#4386476 - 10/23/17 11:46 PM F4 MP  
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New thread for MP sort of stuff.

About the subtitles, and flight leads making declare calls.... I think this works great until the merge. Once battle is joined, and there are 20 jets within 20 miles,what then? If guys are mutually supporting and flying formation through a furball, that's fantastic. But it more often than not devolves in to a free for all. How does the wingman, who has become separated from his flight lead know what is hostile for certain without making his own declare call with no IFF? Is it datalink? See who the lead has locked and listen to his AWACS response? If I have someone locked up and the lead has another locked up, is the lead supposed to drop his lock, to acquire mine so that I know if I can fire?

Curious to know how this works in practice. If everything in front of you is enemy that's one thing. In mixed airspace, with no IFF, I have trouble seeing this working. But if you guys have regularly flown this way in a mixed environment I'd like to learn more.

When we were flying this spring, we used subtitles so that everyone was free to use declare liberally. With subtitles it doesn't matter if two guys do so at the same time.


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#4386479 - 10/24/17 12:35 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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It was more or less a joke about the subtitles.

It takes a lot of practice to get to the point where you are comfy w/ comms and a lot of different VFW/S's do it different than one another. I have flown with several wings/squadrons so I'm pretty flexible.

If your flight lead is keeping tabs w/ AWACS like he/she should, then you will usually have time for sorting etc.

It's going to be our first flight together, so some bumps along the way are expected. Not a big deal. We just iron things out as we go and the more we fly together the more comfy we get.

May I suggest...

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#4386483 - 10/24/17 02:17 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Our chief weapon is surprise
Surprise and fear...fear and surprise
Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope
Our four, no, amongst our weapons -- amongst our weaponry, are such elements as fear, surprise....
I'll come in again.


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#4386484 - 10/24/17 02:22 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Haha! You know this stuff better than me!


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#4386485 - 10/24/17 02:25 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Big fan, big fan smile

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition, and those that do...

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#4386611 - 10/24/17 11:07 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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I have flown with some guys who had a system that you might like.

Anyone can call Awacs , pretty much at any time, providing that you first must state (for example) '2 calling awacs declare' or 'Lead awacs picture' etc.. After so stating it he is free to hit the keyboard command to actually make the command. His stating before making It tells all other pilots that they have to wait until he gets his response before making a call.

Using this no one should get walked on. Or rarely anyway.

DBond-- 'With subtitles it doesn't matter if two guys do so at the same time.' How does this work. Do I hear the response and see the subtitles of other pilots call, or just mine. ?

#4386617 - 10/24/17 11:54 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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You see all responses in the subtitles, but since each is addressed by callsign it's easy to pick your response.

The audio is immediately stepped on when a second guy makes a call while the first response is still coming over the radio, so the subtitles negate the need to wait until the first guy gets his reply. 10 seconds can be an eternity, and you feel bad if you're a second early and kill the first AWACS response before it's completed. I'm all for realistic procedures, but in this case I find unrestricted use with subtitles the best way to do it in multiplayer in this sim. Plus maybe two guys are waiting for the first to end, and they each declare at the same time. What then? After you, no I insist, after you. Dead. If BMS had IFF and datalinked AWACS things would be different, but we don't have that, yet anyway. The only sure way to know if a return is hostile is AWACS declare. I guess there's the Sniper pod too, and I see some guys doing that. I have yet to make that part of my bag o' tricks. But heads down is shot down sometimes, so anything I can do to keep eyes out is better, at least for me.


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#4386618 - 10/25/17 12:26 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Using subtitles does seem better. That 10 sec delay is indeed a bad thing. I have never used it the way you describe but does make a lot of sense.

Last edited by -Axe-; 10/25/17 12:27 AM. Reason: clarity
#4386632 - 10/25/17 04:53 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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IFF should not help as it tells who not to shoot at, not who to shoot at.
You guys can use my solution: anything infront of me gets a missile biggrin

#4386648 - 10/25/17 11:51 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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That's true Oden, but in a sim I'd expect it to be an absolute. In other words, in real life a plane may have a non-functioning or non-existent transponder, or the pilot may have forgotten to turn it on, or maybe squawking the wrong code. But in a sim I'd expect it to be more binary. So anything not squawking is enemy (or neutral I suppose, like in the Balkans). It could be coded of course to introduce a realistic grey area due to reasons like I mentioned. Regardless, it would surely help separate the good guys from the bad even if it weren't foolproof. Just by eliminating certain returns from the possible-enemy list the picture becomes much clearer. You would spend less time declaring friendlies anyway.

I'll also add that my MP experience is colored by the fact that I've flown with many different people. If a guy were to fly continually with the same wingman (or wingmen) a certain degree of familiarity evolves allowing more strict or streamlined procedures. Things become more telepathic in a sense. You start to think alike and know what to expect. You know what the other guy is about to do, and he you. Frankly, this is what I'd like to attain, but with real life, and time zones and all the other things that prevent it, it is difficult to achieve. Maybe Axe and I can get back to that after all these years smile



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#4386741 - 10/25/17 08:59 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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oh durn this is going to be hard,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DBond bad news, I want theOden as my flight lead.

if ya know what i mean........

#4386742 - 10/25/17 09:06 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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and trail formation

#4386743 - 10/25/17 09:06 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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kicked out X 2

#4386749 - 10/25/17 09:49 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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It's a fine choice really. His missile shots will flash by (hopefully) and point toward the bad guys. Just follow the smoke biggrin

And he's also just a good dude.


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#4386875 - 10/26/17 10:46 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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In response to the original question: it depends.

If you have multiple bad guys and good guys in the same area, WTH are you doing there adding to the mess? I think the best option is to turn and run and hope the friendly AI picks off anyone who chases you.

If it's a 4v4, WTH are you doing merging in a 4v4? You should've picked at least one or two off in BVR before going in WVR. If you have 3 other guys in your flight, you should've been able to organize a chainsaw and solved the problem or whittled it down to a more bite-size level.

Assuming a 2v2 in the merge, well, one is attacker, one is support. I can't remember the terms for this or brevity used but it had something to do with "hounddog" and "high man/low man"... there are also tactics you can employ to separate the enemy flight and pick one off before the other one can reposition to be a threat.

Note that none of this relies on IFF. Like I said, that's a whole can of worms and relying on IFF for target ID is really not a smart move. IFF does not tell you who to shoot at, it can only tell you who **NOT** to shoot at and even then, it may be a bad guy that managed to hack the IFF codes and is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I've also read that IFF is turned off when crossing the FLOT --- no sense in advertising that you're part of the enemy team --- and is turned on when coming back in and even then, CAP flights do VID "just in case."


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#4386896 - 10/27/17 01:54 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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That strikes me as idealistic. Or great for TEs and campaigns on day 2. 4v4 or 2v2 is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about flying campaigns when there are 20+ jets within slammer range and you're in the middle. If you argue well you screwed up to find yourself in the middle then you haven't flown many campaigns. (Not insinuating you said this, just trying to discredit this possible counter-argument)

On day one of Strong DPRK Iron Fortress, or between Zagreb and Bihac in Balance of Power for example. These surgical procedures go straight out the window in my opinion when jets are at all points of the compass, Red and Blue, inbound and out. Not to mention Blue and Red flying the same aircraft type. When all flight members have missiles inbound, cohesion is quickly lost.

Real world procedures are sound. But when is the last time a real war was fought with supersonic, missile-armed jets and the numbers depicted in a typical F4 campaign? Never.

I've argued before, that if the USAF had to fight a real-world version of classic Iron Fortress for example, we'd see very different tactics and procedures than we see in real world in the current climate. In F4 campaigns, you can reach the point where the combat intensity renders 'normal' methods inadequate, if you want to live to tell the tale. This isn't a constant state of affairs, after a while you've broken the Wall O' MiGs, or knocked out key airfields. Usually Blue will gain air superiority before too long. But at 10 AM near the front in classic IF it's every man for himself. smile

Edit: My mistake was using the term merge in the original post. I should have said when in the combat zone or something.


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#4387065 - 10/28/17 12:42 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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20+ jets and how many of yours? What range? How far from FLOT or enemy SAMs? How far from your own forces? What is your mission? These will dictate tactics available to you.

You don't suddenly appear in the middle of a 20+ jet vs. your lonesome, you'd have had a heads up at least earlier on. Depending on your loadout, you may have to assume a defensive stance vs. an offensive one. Assuming an A-A loadout, can you bait them and drag them towards your own air defenses? Are they baiting YOU and enticing you to enter into their SAM coverage? Assuming an A-A loadout, 20+ enemy jets, and it's only you and your wingman with 6 Slammers total. Prioritization is key. Not all of them are going towards you. Not all of them are A-A fighters. Do you take out the fighters? Or do you take out the bombers heading for your bases/assets?

At the end of the day, you will want to do the most damage to the enemy and minimizing damage to your own side. That may mean taking out the bombers and ignoring the fighters and then running for your life after you're skosh/winchester. Or it may mean ignoring the bombers and lobbing the spears at the fighters. Or maybe even just bugging out and trying to enter the fight from another direction. Just because a target is there does not mean you have to kill it, nor does it mean you have to do everything you can to kill it.


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#4387071 - 10/28/17 01:18 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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20 jets both Blue and Red, that's the point. Mixed airspace.


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#4387113 - 10/28/17 07:16 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Or maybe even just bugging out and trying to enter the fight from another direction. Just because a target is there does not mean you have to kill it, nor does it mean you have to do everything you can to kill it.


This!

This is the hardest thing to learn as a sim pilot. You have to consider your mission priorities and treat the situation as real if you want to survive and not kill friendlies. If I am ingress to target, I am usually doing my damnedest to try to avoid enemy air contacts.

Unfortunately there really is no correct answer because there are too many variables with the 20 ship scenario. I would avoid getting in the mix with that many ships in one place, maybe hanging out at a safe distance outside the furball and see if any fighters break out and head toward friendly territory. I would then make a decision about whether or not to go after them based on their threat towards blue forces.

If I am in Cat 3 I usually avoid A2A engagements unless they can't be avoided.


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#4387115 - 10/28/17 07:35 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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OK, all this is fine advice, but the question was not about tactics, or how to fly combat. I was asking how a wingman sorts dense mixed airspace if the lead is the only one making picture and declare calls. And specifically in Falcon 4 campaigns.

Clearly I'm not the best F4 pilot, but I have been doing it for nearly 20 years with 2000+ combat sorties under my belt biggrin

Last edited by DBond; 10/28/17 08:29 PM.

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#4387123 - 10/28/17 08:44 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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OK, first of all, I may have confused you a little bit with the lead making calls part. I didn't mean that other members are completely restricted from making calls, such as declaring contacts. These procedures vary among different wings/squadrons.

I'm not trying to criticize you, but I don't know how to answer your question because when you have 20 or so ships from both sides in one area, there are just too many chances for a FUBAR. That is why I stay on the outside looking in. I'm surely not going to fire a slammer into a mix like that, mainly because I'm not going to take a chance on a frat kill. It is also unlikely that any flights in this mess are going to be in formation which means sorting via radar contacts is going to be near impossible. This is why I try to stay away from this mess.

But, if I did stray into this mess and had a contact locked up, I would call out something like, Fury 1-2, Raygun, Bullseye 205, 35 miles Angels 16. Then I would wait for a buddy spike call (AI will do this automatically if you hard lock them), or cleared hot from my flight lead. Then act accordingly. But I would probably have already ID'd the contact visually or on my TGP, so if I'm already weapons free, then I'm taking the shot if I'm in good position.

IRL, just using IFF data is not a qualifier for taking a shot. BTW, your radar will ID your target if you are close enough (15-20 miles?) and you have a good head on angle.

The way we did it the other night is just fine, when we called out or intent to call AWACS before calling AWACS so that other flight members knew not to step on our calls.

I really hope that helps. Maybe I'm not quite understanding exactly what you are asking.

tactical


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#4387141 - 10/28/17 11:23 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
If I have someone locked up and the lead has another locked up, is the lead supposed to drop his lock, to acquire mine so that I know if I can fire?



In your case, thing should have been pre-briefed so once 2 or 1 confirmed they have locked same target 2 or 1 change target as briefed.
Detail Lead/Wingman sorting procedure including brevities is in AFTTP.

#4387144 - 10/28/17 11:44 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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I guess it's no longer important, but was asked after you had mentioned that the flight lead was responsible for picture, threat and declare calls. Since we were flying in a few hours I wanted to wrap my head around the concept, mainly considering that I've mostly flown with this open to all pilots. In most cases, it's not an issue, bad guys are on one side, and good guys are on the other. However, there are times when you find yourself in the middle and I listed some examples of when this is likely to occur. It seems too simple to me to assume that Red aircraft cannot get behind you as long as you're careful. Maybe if you're flying strictly air to air you can keep things this way. But if your mission is to say hit Bihac airfield a few hours in to Balance of Power you are almost certain to come off target with enemy and friendlies in all quadrants. In Strong DPRK IF you could easily have Red aircraft behind you, even capping your base.

So in these situations, when the flight lead is evading a missile shot and going one way, and the wingman is doing the same going the other way, cohesion is lost and within minutes you'll find yourself 15 miles apart and surrounded and maybe evading the next missile shot Survival is you focus then, not helping sort the airspace for your wingman.I know about hard locking and buddy spike replies. I use this too. My question mostly stemmed from thinking about how am I going to sort this if I cannot make a declare call? Of course we worked this out shortly after with a method to announce intention, but at it's root allows all pilots to use these AWACS calls, negating the reason for my question in the first place. I haven't used the TGP for aircraft identification, and it seems this might be more common than I realized. I doubt however it's real-world, or at least I've never seen mention of this in anything I've read, and seems to be a Falcon 4 sort of work around for the other identification tools we are missing. But I should start to use it to fill the gap. Maybe it is real world and I'm just not up to date.

I want us to fly an Ace classic Iron Fortress, so everyone can see I have a point smile It truly can be every man for himself, and it can happen very quickly. Standard procedures work well when you are in control of the situation. But I've flown enough to realize that you cannot always be in control. You will find yourself beset on all sides sooner or later and it's crucial that you can separate the good guys from the bad, and quickly, or you're going to get shot down.


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#4387145 - 10/28/17 11:47 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: nadal]  
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Originally Posted by nadal
Originally Posted by DBond
If I have someone locked up and the lead has another locked up, is the lead supposed to drop his lock, to acquire mine so that I know if I can fire?



In your case, thing should have been pre-briefed so once 2 or 1 confirmed they have locked same target 2 or 1 change target as briefed.
Detail Lead/Wingman sorting procedure including brevities is in AFTTP.



Thanks for your input but this example is when two different targets are locked, and one of the guys cannot use declare. This subject has taken on a life of it's own and I feel I'm having trouble making myself understood. We now have a method that is effective, and I think we should move on to another subject.

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Last edited by DBond; 10/29/17 01:00 AM.

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#4387146 - 10/29/17 01:02 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Lockheed advertises A2A capabilities of it's targeting pods. So yes, this is used in RL and I recommend it! TGP is slaved to the radar, and when a target is locked up goes into point track mode. You can start to make out features on the screen at around 25 miles or so. I use it quite a bit with my FCR on the LMFD and the TGP on the RMFD.


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#4387148 - 10/29/17 01:19 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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I need to start using it, yes. It's easy to DMS over and toggle from HSD to TGP and back. Thanks.


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#4387234 - 10/29/17 07:09 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
20 jets both Blue and Red, that's the point. Mixed airspace.

Over how big an area?


Originally Posted by DBond
OK, all this is fine advice, but the question was not about tactics, or how to fly combat. I was asking how a wingman sorts dense mixed airspace if the lead is the only one making picture and declare calls.

Pass on that one. I'm not a big fan of babysitting wingman AI frown


Originally Posted by DBond
So in these situations, when the flight lead is evading a missile shot and going one way, and the wingman is doing the same going the other way, cohesion is lost and within minutes you'll find yourself 15 miles apart and surrounded and maybe evading the next missile shot Survival is you focus then, not helping sort the airspace for your wingman.I know about hard locking and buddy spike replies. I use this too. My question mostly stemmed from thinking about how am I going to sort this if I cannot make a declare call? Of course we worked this out shortly after with a method to announce intention, but at it's root allows all pilots to use these AWACS calls, negating the reason for my question in the first place. I haven't used the TGP for aircraft identification, and it seems this might be more common than I realized. I doubt however it's real-world, or at least I've never seen mention of this in anything I've read, and seems to be a Falcon 4 sort of work around for the other identification tools we are missing. But I should start to use it to fill the gap. Maybe it is real world and I'm just not up to date.

I think you should re-frame your example situation to make it clearer. I think you've just thrown out a hypothetical and did not expect it to be dissected smile Don't take any offense to our replies, I like talking tactics and nothing against you at all. The Falcon Gods well know that "talking" tactics is one thing, doing it is another!! Hehehehe... and keeping up SA... wow....

So in your new example, Lead and #2 are both evasive, get separated, what next?

Assuming they've both trashed their missiles and are no longer under threat, then the next step is to rejoin Lead and #2, build up SA, then either rejoin the fight or continue on with their original mission, whatever that may be.

Assuming they've both trashed their missiles but both are still under threat, then continue on defensive and bugging out seems to be the wisest choice. If there is time or opportunity, they should work towards going in the same general direction so they can either shake off one or both bandits off their tail.

Assuming they've both trashed their missiles but one of them is still under threat, then the free aircraft should come in to support the other guy. In this scenario, there won't be a need to call AWACS as you will clearly see who is running after your buddy.

I think what's important to remember here is that AWACS is only really useful to building up a picture of the situation and to confirm target ID in BVR. The flight then sorts out targets and engages. You don't contact AWACS for each and every target you lock on and when in a furball (ie, WVR), I don't think real-life AWACS can sort out which is which in a rolling, tumbling mess of radar contacts. Also, once WVR, you have the MK II Eyeball and TGP which is quicker than making a call to AWACS.

Also ---- TGP!! Never leave home without one. I learned this in DCS A10C and had it reinforced in Falcon BMS. Even on A-A missions, bring a TGP!



Originally Posted by schnidrman
This is the hardest thing to learn as a sim pilot. You have to consider your mission priorities and treat the situation as real if you want to survive and not kill friendlies. If I am ingress to target, I am usually doing my damnedest to try to avoid enemy air contacts.

I like to fly taking risks I would imagine RL pilots taking. Sure, it would be fun to jump in a furball and see if you can come out alive, and I'd do that in TEs or IAs, but not in a campaign. I try to make every airframe count. In the 20-jet scenario, not all of those are a direct threat to the player as the other Blue forces in the area is keeping those Red forces busy. If my mission were not to deal with them, then I would see if I can sneak by and do my task. If my mission was to deal with enemy aircraft, I would try to find which ones were easier or more likely to pick off. No sense in firing 6 slammers for only 2 air superiority enemy fighter kills.... I'd rather fire 6 missiles for 6 kills, even if some of those are bombers.


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#4387241 - 10/29/17 07:49 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Sorry Ice, I appreciate your interest and input, but I'm not interested in correcting misunderstandings any longer. I said the range was slammer range, and I am the wingman, not the AI. I've moved on, but I do sincerely appreciate the attempt to help.

Anyway, Schnidrman has just made the single most important discovery in the history of BMS, and I must share! But I will give him a little while to add it the campaign thread if he is so inclined.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4387242 - 10/29/17 07:54 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 361
schnidrman Offline
Jason Schneider
schnidrman  Offline
Jason Schneider
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 361
Kansas City, Missouri
Share away, not sure what thread you want it in, so I'll let you take it from here.


[Linked Image]
#4387243 - 10/29/17 07:58 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 13,194
DBond Online content
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DBond  Online Content
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NooJoyzee


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4387245 - 10/29/17 08:02 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 361
schnidrman Offline
Jason Schneider
schnidrman  Offline
Jason Schneider
Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 361
Kansas City, Missouri
Okay, I just copied and pasted to that thread.


[Linked Image]
#4387394 - 10/30/17 05:47 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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- Ice Offline
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Originally Posted by DBond
Sorry Ice, I appreciate your interest and input, but I'm not interested in correcting misunderstandings any longer. I said the range was slammer range, and I am the wingman, not the AI. I've moved on, but I do sincerely appreciate the attempt to help.

No worries smile

Since I'm not flying much (at least not BMS!), all I can really do is talk tactics.... frown


- Ice
#4387398 - 10/30/17 06:01 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Oct 2000
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DBond Online content
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NooJoyzee
Well, I always appreciate your input, you know your stuff, no doubt. And I also appreciate you taking it the right way. Cheers mate, brilliant. smile


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4387399 - 10/30/17 06:08 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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I really like it when things go "according to plan" in the game, which as you know is not very often biggrin Talking about it just brings it to the front of my mind and thus hopefully will be more "automatic" once in the game. As for knowing stuff, I probably know how to fly, but you sure know way more than I do regarding Falcon.


- Ice
#4387592 - 10/31/17 08:52 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 79
Tazz Offline
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Tazz  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 79
Wellington, NZ
Originally Posted by DBond
I need to start using it, yes. It's easy to DMS over and toggle from HSD to TGP and back. Thanks.


Even in 4.32.7 I never leave on a Sweep mission without a TGP - it works very well in A2A mode, though it does remind me a bit of F-19 Stealth Fighter smile

[Linked Image]

Remember this? smile

[Linked Image]

As I've just purchased a Cougar, I can finally switch over to 4.33.3 and join the MP circus again. smile

Last edited by Tazz; 10/31/17 08:53 PM.
#4387630 - 10/31/17 11:44 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Wasn't there a way to be able to get the TGP onto the target without bugging it with your radar first? Kinda like a stealth kill....


- Ice
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