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#4384085 - 10/09/17 11:52 PM So long, and thanks for all the fish...  
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messyhead Offline
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Well, I'm sad to say it, but I've come to the end of my time on EECH.

Over the last few weeks, I've been trying to get back into working on this game and fixing what I can. I've been trying to get some enthusiasm going with my roadmap and wishlist posts, to try and set out some sort of a plan that modders could work on.

The unexpected return of FireBird made me hopeful that some of that plan could be worked on, and with thealx also mentioning he might be coming back to work on some things, also made me hopeful that there would be some active development again. I was hoping that we could agree to work on some things together to really move this sim forward.

However, I've had a PM chat with FireBird and thealx this evening about the future of EE development, and it's brought me to this decision. It seems there's no appetite amongst those that have the most knowledge of the code, to agree a future direction and work together on some things. FireBird especially seems unhelpul in the replies, even going so far as to belittle my abilities and enthusiasm. It seems individual working is the way to go. Good luck to FireBird with the Ogre work. It seemed the best way to modernise this sim, and I was willing to help on this. But help doesn't seem very wanted.

So I'm off.

You might say it's throwing the dummies from the pram, maybe it is. But I've spent too much time on this game, and come to the realisation that it's pointless really. I've got a few other personal web based projects I want to work on, and have been putting them off for some time to work on EECH.

Everything I've worked on so far for the Havoc gauges fix is checked in to the develop_1_16_1_havoc_instruments branch in the codebase.

My Blackhawk cockpit work is also checked in under 2 separate branches. I'll gather together the files for that and check them in, or upload them somewhere over the next week or so. If someone wants to pick that up and work on it, then feel free. If you want a list of what was unfinished, then PM me.

Good luck with whatever you end up doing with EECH. Maybe I'll come back to it at some point in the future, as a player rather than a modder.

#4384086 - 10/09/17 11:53 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Deleted because PMs in the post.

Last edited by oldgrognard; 10/10/17 10:40 PM.
#4384113 - 10/10/17 04:24 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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FireBird_[WINE] Offline
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It's _very_ impolite to publish _private_ messages without correspondent's agreement.

"there's no appetite" was the reason for many TITANS to leave the project in our past. But they didn't publish private messages anyway.

#4384118 - 10/10/17 07:16 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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That's not cool, I really hope you are not trying to make someone responsible for your leaving. Good luck with your personal projects anyway.

#4384120 - 10/10/17 07:50 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: thealx]  
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messyhead Offline
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Originally Posted by thealx
That's not cool, I really hope you are not trying to make someone responsible for your leaving. Good luck with your personal projects anyway.


I'm not blaming any one person for my decision. The decision not to continue working on this is solely mine. I'm just highlighting the attitudes expressed that made me come to this decision.


My experience of building software in my professional life, is working in teams of developers, testers, and analysts that work collaboratively towards a common goal. I suppose I naively thought that those same principles could be used here.

#4384124 - 10/10/17 09:50 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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You are the one who decides how you spend your time. I know how it feels when you have spent so much time on something, and that in the end all momentum is lost...
While work still needs to be done, as a newbie, I can assure you that the last EECH releases are gorgeous! Many commercial, payware addons (for FSX for instance) are much buggier than EECH.
Anyway, we won't have had much time to know each other, but good luck with your new endeavours. Thank you for what you have done!


"We warned you, but you just wouldn't listen..."
#4384128 - 10/10/17 10:24 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Viper1970 Offline
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I fully agree with messyhead here!

It's not what you say, but how you say it. No-one wants to be a boss here and I think messyhead also never want's to be it, but if this project should come to a useable state we have to follow a roadmap.

It's not very pleasant to treat others like fools even if you have more experience in coding. No-one wants to grab Allmods as his project, but we have to make a plan to get things finished, because at the moment the simulation isn't really useable. There are to many bugs and unfinished content in it and if we want players to come to Allmods it should have a playable state for sure.

This is only possible with a plan, otherwise it will go on like the last years. Everyone makes something he has the desire for but nothing ever gets finished and we will never see a useable simulation like BMS is for example.

What is the most important thing in an attack helicopter simulation? The helicopters for sure! It doesn't make sense to think about making the terrain looking nicer or what else, if the helicopters and their cockpits aren't working. That's the first which have to be in a functional state and after this we can make other improvements.

That's what I think about it and I hope that there is a way to work together as a community and not everyone for himself.


CockpitPC1: Ryzen9 5950X|64GB DDR4|512GB M2 SSD|2TB M2 SSD|Geforce RTX3090|Reverb G2|Win11Pro
CockpitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|32GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|2x Geforce GTX660 SLI|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC1: Ryzen9 3900XT|32GB DDR4|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce RTX2070|Win11 Pro
ComUnitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|16GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce GTX660|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC3: AthlonII X2 250|2GB DDR2|2TB HDD|Geforce 5950Ultra|2x VoodooII SLI|WinXPPro32&WinME
ComUnitPC4: K6-2+|768MB SDR|640GB HDD|Geforce 256DDR|VoodooI|Win98SE
#4384134 - 10/10/17 11:06 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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XIII Offline
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Firebird alone spend ~5 years for converting eech to dx9. you must understand him point of view. Without Firebird eech will be dead many years ago.

#4384138 - 10/10/17 12:11 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Maybe,

but that's no reason to be bearish to other guys I think. Don't know what's the reason for his reaction. No-one want's to take Allmods as his own project. He is and ever will be the father of Allmods even so Thealx.

I only had seen that there had no work been done on it for two years now and it still has a lot of errors or unfinished content. As I really love this simulation, for me it wasn't understandable that no-one had worked further on it and so I only tried to get it back to life. My intention was only to get those content which is already in the different versions to one version and maybe bring all of it to a new bugfixed release with some very small improvements like more realistic cockpits for the russian helicopters that weren't upgraded or fixed the last years (MI-28N, KA-50, KA-52).

That's what I still think is the most important. An complete overhaul is a great idea, but we need a functional release in the meantime so that people can play this game. As said an overhaul is an extrem time consumption project and the risk to fail, because the people who work at it have no more time for it, is really high. If this happens and there is no useable bugfixed alternative version available, I think Allmods will going to the graveyard as so many other mods still have done.

If Thealx or Firebird still working in the background at Allmods and don't want that their plans are messed up from people like messyhead or myself, they just have to told us that the project is still under development and they have other plans with it. But I think there have to be some results in a foreseeable future cause otherwise people will loose the interest on it. The bugfixing is the faster way to get results in my opinion and after this nothing is there against a new completely overhauled release maybe something like EECH Allmods 2.0 then.

P.S:

As an example, I want to use Allmods with my homecockpit and have still made a lot of hardware for it (own HOTAS for the helos of EECH, extra consoles etc.), but as I've had the possibility to do a more intense test with 1.16.0 for the first time ( because the past years I had also much work in my RL ) and jumped into the MI-28 pit seeing that there are no more working instruments (only tested 1.15.2 before) I really was very disappointed. Next step was jumping in the KA-50 and what's this, still no working instruments after the upgrade either cuss2 ! And still dark cockpits you couldn't read any instruments and so on...

Sh... for what I've made all the work for my cockpit to be compatible with Allmods if so much isn't working and no-one cares for it since two years?!?

But I love it and there is also no alternative to it at the moment if you want to fly attack helicopters other than only the KA-50. That's why I started to work on it and after making some small adjustments for myself I was able to do, I thought it would be real nice if the work on this project will come to a new begin to fix the content and make it really useable. So I decided to go to the forum and look for some other guys who are still interested in it.

It's a simulation, not an action game and that's why things have to work as realistic as possible of course. If you just want to jump in a helo and smash tanks or other aircraft with a lot of eyecandy and a impressive terrain there are many other action helicopter sims out there you can fly.



CockpitPC1: Ryzen9 5950X|64GB DDR4|512GB M2 SSD|2TB M2 SSD|Geforce RTX3090|Reverb G2|Win11Pro
CockpitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|32GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|2x Geforce GTX660 SLI|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC1: Ryzen9 3900XT|32GB DDR4|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce RTX2070|Win11 Pro
ComUnitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|16GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce GTX660|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC3: AthlonII X2 250|2GB DDR2|2TB HDD|Geforce 5950Ultra|2x VoodooII SLI|WinXPPro32&WinME
ComUnitPC4: K6-2+|768MB SDR|640GB HDD|Geforce 256DDR|VoodooI|Win98SE
#4384156 - 10/10/17 01:39 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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I have no idea what is going on, but I don't like the way how modders was separated on good guys and bad guys.
Conflict started with firebird's attitude. Have someone checked code he pushing? Can you read it? I can't. So when he giving me advice, I am listening and not argue, like it happen in provided conversation.
As for topic - making public discussions about game future is not correct - most of the people can't know game from the inside, and opinions about what is right and what is wrong are completely subjective. Community pushing game forward, but directions should be chosen by someone professional.

#4384165 - 10/10/17 02:20 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Hi Guys,

I'm watching this thread and wondering where this is going to end.

I think messyhead made the mistake of trying to organise the modding of EECH as he would a project at work, which would never work. At work, people are paid to work on stuff they don't particularly want to. On EECH we rely on individual's giving up their time for free.

We also can't expect modders to go back and fix the mistakes or unfinished code of someone else. If they want to, that's great, but it's not their responsibility.

I personally use version 1.15.4 in my pit because that was the last one I am aware of without problems. I'd love to install the latest work, but I'm not confident in it.

I agree that messyhead should not have published a personal message on the forum, it is exactly that PERSONAL.

Viper has been desperately trying to kickstart what he thought was a dying simulation. I must admit it looked that way to me too. Cudos to him for trying.

I would try and help with coding and fixing bugs if I could, but I cannot follow how the sections of the program interact. I've programmed in the past, but these were always linear programs. If the existing modders could explain how the sections interact, that may allow some of us less capable ones to try and fix what's wrong. This is only a suggestion and not me "taking charge".

I'm sure there are others like me out here.

How about we start the discussion again ?

Andy


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
#4384167 - 10/10/17 02:31 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: AndyB]  
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messyhead Offline
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Originally Posted by AndyB
I think messyhead made the mistake of trying to organise the modding of EECH as he would a project at work, which would never work. At work, people are paid to work on stuff they don't particularly want to. On EECH we rely on individual's giving up their time for free.


I was trying to get a community of modders to work together towards some common goals. The mistake I made was assuming that there was a community.

#4384168 - 10/10/17 02:37 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Viper1970 Offline
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No-one seperates the modders to good and bad guys. In my opinion Firebird is one of the best guys which ever worked at Allmods and we have to thank him for his work alot, but there is also no reason for him to be unkind to other guys, if they make some suggestions to bring Allmods further, specifically as he disappeared for two years from the project. Who should know that he will ever come back again?

Maybe it's a language problem here but it seemed a bit arrogant to me too what he answered and this obtains not only to what messyhead here posted.

There maybe some different assumptions to what is important and what not, but there is no doubt that in an attack helicopter simulation the cockpits and the weapon systems of the helos should work first before thinking about anything else.

It's like building a race-car without a steering wheel and footpedals and then going to work at the race-track for a more enjoyable ride. It doesn't make any sense if the essentials don't work. For this I have not to be a professional to know this.

Maybe the whole cockpits have to be reworked if a new technology for Allmods is used and that's why he is the meaning that it makes no sense to fix anything before now. But as I said before, no-one wants to wait for an completely overhauled Allmods 1.1X.X in the year 202X which most likely never happens if you look at the past two years.

There were two years gone without even the smallest fix after 1.16.0 Fix1. I don't think it is really in an usefull completely playable state, so that no fix was necessary. And now rebuild the whole thing again before making anything really useable!?!

I don't understand this. Maybe for coders it is more important to work at the project and not to have a useable, flyable and enjoyable simulation, but if that's the reason it should be stated as a tech-demo.



CockpitPC1: Ryzen9 5950X|64GB DDR4|512GB M2 SSD|2TB M2 SSD|Geforce RTX3090|Reverb G2|Win11Pro
CockpitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|32GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|2x Geforce GTX660 SLI|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC1: Ryzen9 3900XT|32GB DDR4|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce RTX2070|Win11 Pro
ComUnitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|16GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce GTX660|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC3: AthlonII X2 250|2GB DDR2|2TB HDD|Geforce 5950Ultra|2x VoodooII SLI|WinXPPro32&WinME
ComUnitPC4: K6-2+|768MB SDR|640GB HDD|Geforce 256DDR|VoodooI|Win98SE
#4384175 - 10/10/17 03:08 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Hi Andy,

nice to see you here again.

I think you are right with starting again, but at the moment I'm really angry. I'm the guy who ever want's to get along with everyone but I could not suffer it if someone get's unkind without any reason. Maybe it's also so much disappointing to see what happens if some guys that actually share the same interest and hobby try to work together.

I started this whole thing in the hope we get further with Allmods and maybe become friends in a new great community.


CockpitPC1: Ryzen9 5950X|64GB DDR4|512GB M2 SSD|2TB M2 SSD|Geforce RTX3090|Reverb G2|Win11Pro
CockpitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|32GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|2x Geforce GTX660 SLI|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC1: Ryzen9 3900XT|32GB DDR4|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce RTX2070|Win11 Pro
ComUnitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|16GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce GTX660|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC3: AthlonII X2 250|2GB DDR2|2TB HDD|Geforce 5950Ultra|2x VoodooII SLI|WinXPPro32&WinME
ComUnitPC4: K6-2+|768MB SDR|640GB HDD|Geforce 256DDR|VoodooI|Win98SE
#4384201 - 10/10/17 06:22 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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O.k. after thinking about all this a little bit more intense, I also decided to quit my attempt to get Allmods alive again.

I have another project I really want to finish, my homepit. That's all I want to do from the beginning.

I will stay with 1.15.4 and only use the US choppers, cause as Andy mentioned before and what I also always told, I'm thinking that this version is the most advanced at the moment.

Allmods should stay where it belongs and this is in the hands of the professionals. I'm confident looking for further releases or bugfixes.


CockpitPC1: Ryzen9 5950X|64GB DDR4|512GB M2 SSD|2TB M2 SSD|Geforce RTX3090|Reverb G2|Win11Pro
CockpitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|32GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|2x Geforce GTX660 SLI|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC1: Ryzen9 3900XT|32GB DDR4|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce RTX2070|Win11 Pro
ComUnitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|16GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce GTX660|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC3: AthlonII X2 250|2GB DDR2|2TB HDD|Geforce 5950Ultra|2x VoodooII SLI|WinXPPro32&WinME
ComUnitPC4: K6-2+|768MB SDR|640GB HDD|Geforce 256DDR|VoodooI|Win98SE
#4384211 - 10/10/17 06:49 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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XIII Offline
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Allelujah! Cant read 100 times the same bs in every thread. whoohoo

#4384213 - 10/10/17 06:52 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: XIII]  
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messyhead Offline
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Originally Posted by blackshark
Allelujah! Cant read 100 times the same bs in every thread. whoohoo


I don't really think that's called for.

#4384215 - 10/10/17 07:08 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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I dont really think public private messages is serious.

#4384216 - 10/10/17 07:13 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Viper1970 Offline
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@ blackshark

clapping what an intelligent response


CockpitPC1: Ryzen9 5950X|64GB DDR4|512GB M2 SSD|2TB M2 SSD|Geforce RTX3090|Reverb G2|Win11Pro
CockpitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|32GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|2x Geforce GTX660 SLI|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC1: Ryzen9 3900XT|32GB DDR4|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce RTX2070|Win11 Pro
ComUnitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|16GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce GTX660|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC3: AthlonII X2 250|2GB DDR2|2TB HDD|Geforce 5950Ultra|2x VoodooII SLI|WinXPPro32&WinME
ComUnitPC4: K6-2+|768MB SDR|640GB HDD|Geforce 256DDR|VoodooI|Win98SE
#4384217 - 10/10/17 07:15 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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messyhead Offline
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Ok. I don't think what I posted was particularly bad. It could have been a conversation carried out in the forum, and the response would have been the same.

Your post above is a direct attack on a forum member. It's not the first time recently that it's happened.

I'm going to lock this thread now, and ask another moderator to look at your post, and what I posted. If they see anything to be out of order, I'll apologise for it.

#4384250 - 10/10/17 10:08 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Hi guys,

With the caveat that I have not followed EECH development closely, I'll chime in on this thread, per messyhead's request for a review.

I will observe that it is generally considered bad form to post Private Message content without the consent of the other party/parties. There can be exceptions to that, but I don't think I see one of those in this case.

Moving along, FireBird_[WINE]'s PM / PMs can certainly be viewed as brusque, but one should keep in mind that he is entitled to react as he chooses, for whatever his reasons may be. The community is not entitled to demand anything from any of you as far as advancing any of these projects go. Some of the attitude that seems to be there may be attributable to the language difference. Or it may just be a natural result of past experiences related to the project(s) community. I don't know, but again... nobody can really demand anything from someone else in here as far as working on a project goes.

Each of you has to decide for yourselves what you are willing to do. While I applaud messyhead attempting to get things moving again/faster, I can also understand backing off from it, if it doesn't appear promising. Everybody has to decide what they are willing to do, and under what circumstances. It may simply be that various folks can not see going at it in a similar way. Stuff like that happens in the real world.

While I do not have a stake in it, I would encourage any of you that have common ground to try again to find a way to work together if that is feasible.

As for this thread, since the PM traffic has been visible for awhile now, it probably would not do much good for me to make it go away. I would say that if any of the affected parties request the PM text to be deleted, then it should be edited out of the thread. I'm going to unlock this thread so that discussion can resume. Please keep it respectful of one another. You guys have done some pretty cool stuff with EECH, and I think that is admirable. It would be great if that could continue to progress.

Best regards,

CyBerkut

#4384280 - 10/11/17 01:09 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Ah, yes, it may really look "brusque". "Noone is boss" did not mean "messyhead, please don't be bossy". It was just a simple fact.

I lead to me those time when I created EE releases and wanted people to fix this or that. Or improve something. Sometimes they did that. But more often - they did not.
As for "features list", I had my own TODO, I added tasks inspired by both me and community there.
Those "task list does not work for COMMUNITY" is totally my experience. I saw that behavior ten years ago and once again.

I warmly remember times when I was able to work in close contact on some features with some community representatives.
Unfortunately my lack of communication skills didn't allow me to continue working with many good people. I had less and less understanding what they said to me and I could not express my thoughts clear enough as well.

If it was a commercial development it would be much easier to communicate, because people would be forced to TRY to understand each other (otherwise - wages decrease or fire away). Open source has its own features.

Well, I say again, we did much in our time, I liked a lot both people we worked together and the results of jobs we did. It does not matter if the project is dead or not. We had great time in development and I'm proud of it.

A dozen of years in EE development of course improved me. Both EE code and people of community influenced me all of that time.
Being very young I was awed by computer games, and specially - combat flight simulators. EE was a jewel when I first read about it.
My work always was very far from games, and EE development gave me both practical knowledge and fun. Being a programmer makes me happy when a dumb silicon box becomes to do what I expect it to do, having some kind of life I put into that box.
It's twice as good if the result looks great.

I want to thank all of the people who improved both the game and me during all those long dozen of years. Breaking the limits and exploring the world beyond my experience made me what I am.

I don't know if I can add significant amount of Ogre support. Real life problems increase in numbers each year.
But the memory of project, people, contribution, new knowledge and skills will always warm me.

FireBird

#4384308 - 10/11/17 06:22 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
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Rhugouvi Offline
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Hello,

I had no idea about what is EECH less than one month ago, so I know nothing about the past of Allmods, who did what abd so on.
But what I can see now is that:
- we all like EECH and want it to get it even better!
- we all have contributed to it (from a very humble bat launcher to large code rewritings)
- there is such a comprehensive knowledge of the intricacies of the game among you and published in the wiki
- you (we?) have so many skills and know-hows in coding, modelling, texturing etc

So let's face it : this lot of people is the best one could dream of to bring EECH further!

I understand Firebird when he writes that modding is for fun, and one can not expect that someone would work on something one doesn't like.
I understand Messyhead when he writes that a minimum of coordination (not directing) is needed to know who works on what (the worst being two guys working on the same thing without knowing it).
Firebird's and messyhead's points are not contradictary, but highlight two aspects that are both true!

Written communication is very complicated indeed. At first I took Firebird's remark about "coding can be done by mid-school pupil" as a plain insult, but on second thought, it came to me that the intented meaning could be more like "hey, give coding a try, you'll see it is that hard in the end". What totally changes the meaning of the whole comment.

We are all EECH well-wishers here, so let's be positive in out comments and in our reading of said comments.
This thread started pretty lively, but I hope it has been an opportunity for everyone to speak their mind, and share their thoughts about EECH's future.

I wouldn't want to feel like someone who comes late to a party, just as the music is turned off and everybody is going to sleep.
I am sure I won't.


"We warned you, but you just wouldn't listen..."
#4384312 - 10/11/17 07:19 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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FireBird_[WINE] Offline
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> "coding can be done by mid-school pupil"
Yup. One of greats said once something like. "Programming is easy. It's hard to write good programs."
Anyway result would not be good without experience, experience won't come up without doing.

I really appreciated when ten years ago we publicly discussed bugs found in the code (original and created by community). It was both educational and made EE better. I remember when there were huge stability issues and I had to implement autosave feature just not to loose to much campaign progress because of those. Does anyone use that feature now?


But you quoted me a little incorrectly. I said that "C language is easy". Language knowledge and programming are not the same.
If someone knows English it does not mean he can write novels and poetry. But he can write a letter or at least a note.
Also, if one both knows German and good in novel writing he can write good English novels after a little studying English.

When I started to work with 3D code in EE, I knew nothing about Lightwave. I succeeded to learn basics of it, and was able to provide that knowledge to many others. I did nothing in 3d modeling, but many others did a lot. I was able to understand where provided 3d models had problems but I did no changes to them.
So even that basic knowledge I gathered helped both me and other people a lot. Of course I'm not saying that everybody got all Lightwave knowledge just from me. wink

#4384318 - 10/11/17 08:59 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
Joined: Dec 2010
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messyhead Offline
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Cyberkut, thanks for intervening, and I take your comments on board.

FireBird, I apologise for publicly posting the PM that we had. It was in no way meant as an attack on you. I thought it was the best way for me to illustrate the attitudes that made me decide to give up on modding EE. Having read it again, and your comments above, I now see that what you wrote, and your intention were not the same. It was all just lost in communication. Thank you for clarifying what you meant.

My intention was not to dictate what should be done, or try to have some control. But everyone will know the phrase "Divide and Conquer". I think that getting EE working in Ogre, which is really what's needed for the future of EE, is too big a task for one person. So I hoped that by working on parts of the same problem, we'd get results quicker.

I also think there's some quick fixes that could be done in the short term to make small improvements to EE, and then spend a longer time working on things like Ogre, and other bigger improvements.

I think that if we continue working as individuals, then progress will be slow, and the playerbase that is there, however big it is, will drift away.


I've been a player of EE since Apache/Havoc was first released, and I've always liked it. I would love to see it continue to be improved, and I genuinely felt sad when I posted this thread as I was walking away from helping improve it. There are things I'd like to see added personally, like my Blackhawk cockpit, but I would need help in getting those finished. I don't have enough knowledge of the codebase to instantly know where to look to fix or improve things. However, that doesn't mean I'm not willing to try. I learned C when I studied Mechanical Engineering at university, more than 20 years ago, and I've worked as a tester/developer for almost 15 years using other languages other than C. So programming concepts and how to write code is not alien to me.


I understand how your opinion of working together in the past has left you feeling like it doesn't work. But I'm genuinely offering to try working that way now. It might mean you need to put up with my questions as I learn how the 3D code works, but you currently have the most knowledge in that area. I understand that people will want to work on their own thing, but if all of the modders have the goal of improving EE, then it might be that sometimes you need to park your own work, and do some other tasks. For example, I've left my Blackhawk cockpit for now to try and work on getting the Havoc needles working and a couple of other things.


I'd be grateful if you would be willing to help and support myself and the other modders whilst we get to work on things, and if there's some way we could work collectively on some of the bigger problems, than that would be great as well.

#4384322 - 10/11/17 09:39 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 675
FireBird_[WINE] Offline
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wink

For all my time in this community I always helped people with any direct question they addressed me with.
Unfortunately from some point in time I just stopped to understand most of them. I don't know what the reason of it was. It's just a fact.

You have my e-mail, we had talks previously via it.
I doubt I can give wide answers but I'm able to point somewhere and give a couple "how it should be made" advices. Most of them are "look like it's done in other places yet". wink

FireBird

#4384331 - 10/11/17 10:41 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
Joined: Jul 2009
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CyBerkut Offline
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CyBerkut  Offline
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Florida
thumbsup

#4384339 - 10/11/17 11:10 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
Joined: Dec 2010
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Viper1970 Offline
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Bavaria, near Munich
O.k. I see it was really a misunderstanding. I was very disappointed because I want that this awesome simulation gets a little bit more finished. I hate if good things left unfinished and Allmods is such a great work, in my opinion really the best attack helicopter simulator ever built. I said this not only to to kiss up to this community, its my real conviction. I have also played this sim since the original EEAH came out in 1998 here in Germany and I'm a rotorhead since LHX Attack Chopper and Gunship2000 in the good old DOS-times.

I apologize my indignant behavior, but my real life problems also increase every new month and this is why I'm a bit nervous at the moment. My hobby is and was the only pleasant thing in my life I had, because many other things get totally wrong.

I really don't want to push someone to make things I would like to see in a direction, but I think that content which is already in Allmods has to work of course. If I would like to push, I would urge to get an AH-1F Cobra to Allmods too, because this is really my all time favorite attack helicopter. If I would be able to fix the things that not working on my own, I would do so and of course share this with the community too, but I couldn't because I have not all the knowledge needed. For this reason I tried to help with those things I could already do like texture-work or learn things I'm really able to learn like 3D modeling.

I've been sitting here for hours every night to get some improvements for the russian helicopter cockpits done, which was a really hard work if you have to learn it from scratch, but I know from the beginning that I need the help of some other guys to get all the instrument stuff working. At the moment I'm working on the MI-28N and the KA-52, to make the modernized versions of their cockpits, because so much had changed since the early days of those helicopters.

Since so much had changed, many instruments must be moved or totally new builded and of course also get working again, but this last point is what I'm not able to do completely on my own at the moment. So I need the help of more experienced guys here. There are also some questions I was not able to get answers on my own, because not much is available at the web. For example things like what happend to the periscope in the modernized version of the KA-52 Alligator? Is this avionics part still there and if where is the image of the camera displayed on (at one of the MFD's ?) or is it completely removed or replaced by anything else?

I also advised to make a some new improved versions of the original cockpit textures for the MI-28A which are compatible to the fix messyhead makes at the moment of course.
The MI-28 black cockpit I made may look a bit nicer as the blue one, but it isn't realistic because such a version never exists. As said before I'm working on the real black MI-28N cockpit in paralell to the KA-52 at the moment and also will try to make a gunner pit for it. Maybe I will convert my KA-50 pit to a blue version (which was also existing in RL) and make some improvements to the old KA-52 Alligator cockpit too, so everyone can decide which one he prefers, old or new.

But all this will take time, because sadly I'm a bit a perfectionist and will try do get the things as realistic as possible. Here comes also the first question I have to the community. Is it really needed to make all gauges 3D? As said I'm a perfectionist but I really couldn't see much difference in the game itself if a gauge is only made 2D. At least at the front panel it's not really noticeable and the 3D effect could also be done by good textures. For other panels like e.g. overhead it makes a clear difference because of the viewing angle, but I'm not able to test it with a head tracking system at the moment, so I need your advice. If all should be done with 3D, I will take much more time but I will try to do if favored.

So this is what I want to bring to the project in future, isn't as much as others made, but the only thing I can do with my knowledge. At first I think the cockpits should only have a small upgrade to make them a bit more functional e.g. like MI-28 gauges (messyhead maybe will work further on this) and the KA-50 missing instruments have to be integrated and somethings also fixed (HUD, MFD). Some other bugs like collision problems have also to be quick fixed and we have something players can use in the meantime.

Other things could be integrated in a complete overhaul (I will also need some time to make all this work come true, cause there is my homepit also). Don't know what you all think of my suggestion (I'm not trying to push here to any direction), so please give a comment on this. Would be also nice to hear some opinions of some new guys, not allways the same people which discuss here or sometimes argue biggrin

And I'm no lone warrior so any help at my project is welcome and we can make all decisions together. If needed I'm willing to share my results at anytime so others can help to improve it, only restriction is that it should look like the real thing as far as possible no fantasy parts or something else.


CockpitPC1: Ryzen9 5950X|64GB DDR4|512GB M2 SSD|2TB M2 SSD|Geforce RTX3090|Reverb G2|Win11Pro
CockpitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|32GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|2x Geforce GTX660 SLI|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC1: Ryzen9 3900XT|32GB DDR4|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce RTX2070|Win11 Pro
ComUnitPC2: PhenomII X6 1100T|16GB DDR2|2x 2TB HDD|Geforce GTX660|Win7Pro64
ComUnitPC3: AthlonII X2 250|2GB DDR2|2TB HDD|Geforce 5950Ultra|2x VoodooII SLI|WinXPPro32&WinME
ComUnitPC4: K6-2+|768MB SDR|640GB HDD|Geforce 256DDR|VoodooI|Win98SE
#4384340 - 10/11/17 11:19 AM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,382
thealx Offline
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Now I get confused by all these sudden retirements. As I am not going anywhere, I have several questions for you, messyhead:
1. are you planning, and able to finish Havoc instruments?
2. are you planning to finish Blackhawk cockpit in near future? it's not just a curiosity. I have Soczkien's cockpit ready to be released, so now I have to add new aircraft to not cause problems for you, or just include this cockpit to master branch as-is.

#4384346 - 10/11/17 12:03 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: thealx]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,883
messyhead Offline
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messyhead  Offline
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Originally Posted by thealx
Now I get confused by all these sudden retirements.


Ha ha, yeah it did get a bit crazy. As I've said above, I realise now it was all just a bit of a misunderstanding, and got blown out of proportion. As FireBird has clarified things, I think my hasty retirement was unnecessary.

So to answer your questions...

Originally Posted by thealx
1. are you planning, and able to finish Havoc instruments?


Yes. I'm still working on this. Although in light of some things that Firebird mentioned, I'm going to take another look at how I'm doing it, as I might be doing it from the wrong approach.

Originally Posted by thealx
2. are you planning to finish Blackhawk cockpit in near future? it's not just a curiosity. I have Soczkien's cockpit ready to be released, so now I have to add new aircraft to not cause problems for you, or just include this cockpit to master branch as-is.


Yes, I am also planning on going back to this once the Havoc gauges are working. Although I'm not sure if I can say it will be done in near future. There's still quite a bit to add. The texturing as well all needed properly done. However, if I can get the engine gauges in the Havoc working, then I think that will help me with getting the engine displays in the Blackhawk working, as they'll likely use similar methods to display the coloured bars.

What is Sockziens cockpit that you have? Is that the one that had multiple MFDs, and was more like the UH-60M cockpit, and was in 1.15.4?

#4384348 - 10/11/17 12:12 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
Joined: Dec 2012
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thealx Offline
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thealx  Offline
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By near future I meant next 5 years, so I will plan to duplicate cockpit and instruments code.

Yes, UH-60M that was included in 1.15.4.

#4384352 - 10/11/17 12:36 PM Re: So long, and thanks for all the fish... [Re: messyhead]  
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,883
messyhead Offline
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messyhead  Offline
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Hopefully it'll be done in less than 5!

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