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#4383443 - 10/06/17 02:08 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
Not necessarily Stache. The reason I suggest Aces High 3 and not RoF is because AH3 is not state of the art flight modelling. So if WoFF exceeds AH3, then that's good enough for me. I like the feel in Aces High. So it provides an excellent baseline for forming an opinion. We all know RoF is great and WoFF doesn't match that level. But I don't need or want that. I simply would like for someone, and I was assuming Mr Wiggins was volunteering to go a step further in helping me out.

I can't just throw out $45 to see what it's all about. With tight money, it's not my style.


Well I took your suggestion and downloaded AH3, flew the DR1 as you suggested and I can tell you that my impression was the FM sucked big time. I have to say WOFF FM is hands down way ahead of AH3.
That is my personal opinion and other may not agree for what ever reason. If you like AH3, you will find WOFF absolutely amazing!

Cheers mate!



Thank you Mr. Wiggins, that is very nice to hear. Appreciate your time doing this.


"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4383449 - 10/06/17 03:08 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
Not necessarily Stache. The reason I suggest Aces High 3 and not RoF is because AH3 is not state of the art flight modelling. So if WoFF exceeds AH3, then that's good enough for me. I like the feel in Aces High. So it provides an excellent baseline for forming an opinion. We all know RoF is great and WoFF doesn't match that level. But I don't need or want that. I simply would like for someone, and I was assuming Mr Wiggins was volunteering to go a step further in helping me out.

I can't just throw out $45 to see what it's all about. With tight money, it's not my style.


Well I took your suggestion and downloaded AH3, flew the DR1 as you suggested and I can tell you that my impression was the FM sucked big time. I have to say WOFF FM is hands down way ahead of AH3.
That is my personal opinion and other may not agree for what ever reason. If you like AH3, you will find WOFF absolutely amazing!

Cheers mate!



Thank you Mr. Wiggins, that is very nice to hear. Appreciate your time doing this.





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#4383476 - 10/06/17 11:20 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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.

It's been noted before that while ROF is an excellent flight simulator featuring WWI aircraft, WOFF is a fully immersive WWI combat experience featuring the war in the air.

.


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#4383486 - 10/06/17 11:42 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: OvStachel]  
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Originally Posted by OvStachel
LOL... I LOVE these conversations...

Here, I'll give you a good example of how silly some of this gets.

I work for a major international carrier that happens to be based at LHR and fly to JFK on a daily basis... for 25 years now... I have an FAA A/P and I carry 3 EASA licenses (B747, B777 and B767). OK... so I know a thing or two about being hands-on with very large planes.

I have Prepar3dv4, and PMDG's 747-400 and 777-200/300ER along with countless other planes installed.

For the fun of practicing my job, I load-up the 747-400 and "break it" based on what I know about the plane... well... it doesn't quite 'feel' right to me when it breaks. The CMC (Central Maintenance Computer) fails to give me the correct FIM (Fault Isolation Manual) codes.. so I can't clear messages the way I could normally... I can't flip the 'Ground Enable' swith on the P441, so I can't do the correct ground tests when I need to... I can't get into the Lower 41 to pull the breakers I normally would pull for No Land 3 status messages... I can't pull the P6 breakers for the "Pack" status messages... All I can do is a pack reset on the P5. AND there's NO MEL so I can't ADD anything!!!! Oh yeah... where's the the Tech Log??? How can I release the damn plane out without a Tech Log?!?!?!

Get what I'm saying?? ... it's a damn simulator... hence the term 'simulation' meaning... not real... meant to seem like real... meant to be kinda real.... meant to have fun with...

Not selling the game... but we broke our collective asses for over 10 years to bring to the community the best possible work as we could. The only pilots I have ever met that have flown these era planes were at Rhinebeck and The VA in New Zealand and they all said the same thing... quirky as hell to fly and a real work out after one hour you're ready for bed. So take that for what it is, a Jumbo (747-400) at cruise altitude of FL390 will turn on the pressure from breathing too hard on the yoke (actual quote from a Captain I'm friends with) .... and no one simulates that in any simulator either.

Just enjoy the skies over Flanders ... I'm happy as hell I can.

OvS


Absolutely! smile

#4383505 - 10/06/17 01:38 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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You know I remember (must be about 8 years ago!) when off 3 was just out. People were worried that RoF was going to be better (we got the usual arguments of newer engine, better graphics, multiplayer etc), but after a few months it was clear that it was a very different product. Having just failed to beat Off BHaH in reviews and awards, we then released WoFF, which has dominated since. off vs rof was settled with off3 beating it on the whole, then came WoFF which has stayed on top. And now, coming soon will be WotR, a ww2 combat experience, It's a great time to be involved in flight sims.


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#4383611 - 10/06/17 09:53 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Ok so I bought it and had my first aerial combat. I'll say that the sense of flying is better than I was assuming. Beautiful scenery as well, in spite of being an old engine.

I'm always the first to try to find an exploit in combat, so please enlighten me on one thing I found quickly. I notice that the planes tend to hang vertically too well with full power despite speed being nearly zero. I am also able to give some full rudder opposite of the way the plane wants to fall and able to keep in hanging. I do have the fm set on realistic. Is there a setting somewhere that can prevent this, or is it simply a part of the fm?

Last edited by TerribleTwo; 10/06/17 09:54 PM.

"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4383627 - 10/06/17 10:35 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
Ok so I bought it and had my first aerial combat. I'll say that the sense of flying is better than I was assuming. Beautiful scenery as well, in spite of being an old engine.

I'm always the first to try to find an exploit in combat, so please enlighten me on one thing I found quickly. I notice that the planes tend to hang vertically too well with full power despite speed being nearly zero. I am also able to give some full rudder opposite of the way the plane wants to fall and able to keep in hanging. I do have the fm set on realistic. Is there a setting somewhere that can prevent this, or is it simply a part of the fm?


The way you describe it, the plane hangs vertical at zero air speed indefinitely. I have never experienced that. Are you sure you are not falling tail down for some time?


(System_Specs)
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Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4383643 - 10/07/17 12:11 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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It's not gaining in altitude, but kinda hanging tail down at an angle. I notice it most with the Nieuport models. It's not indefinite but seems to have very powerful rudder response with little to no airspeed. Other planes seem to keel right over.

BTW, love the combat. A DVII got tired of turning with me and just decided to rocket for home. Couldn't catch him. Love it.

Last edited by TerribleTwo; 10/07/17 12:11 AM.

"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4383667 - 10/07/17 07:17 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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AnKor Offline
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I'll be honest and say that the rudder is the bane of WOFF flight models. And it was the same in OFF:BHaH.
The problem is not in the game engine but in the way FMs are configured. Some aircrafts are very good, some are in OMG WTF IT IS A HELICOPTER category.

#4383675 - 10/07/17 10:49 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: AnKor]  
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Originally Posted by AnKor
I'll be honest and say that the rudder is the bane of WOFF flight models. And it was the same in OFF:BHaH.
The problem is not in the game engine but in the way FMs are configured. Some aircrafts are very good, some are in OMG WTF IT IS A HELICOPTER category.


Ankor, that is a pretty broad statement without much explanatory detail. I have made an FM mod before and would be willing to try and address your concerns if you would kindly PM me with details on specific aircraft. I can make changes and send them to you for testing.

How do you feel about that.


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
Pwr Sup: OCZ, GameXStream,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
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#4383680 - 10/07/17 12:15 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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AnKor Offline
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I've tried your mod some time ago (sorry I didn't comment on it back then). It improves the behavior but didn't solve the main problem with the rudder.
I'm still wondering if I'm the only one who is bothered by the issue or maybe it just doesn't happen for other players.

Here is a couple of videos about DH4 I recorded some time ago

Here I apply full right rudder and then struggle to actually fly to the right without much success (of course I could just roll right and use the elevator, but I wanted to do a flat turn).


Here I line up with a line of trees then apply full left rudder, aircraft turns left but flies... to the right. And with increased ground speed (+20 km/h with the rudder).



Albatros DII suffers from similar issues, but at the same time D.Va is quite good if I recall correctly.

#4383682 - 10/07/17 12:29 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Ankor, those aren't the issues I see. The rudder is too powerful at high angle of attacks and low speed (pulling up to high rate of climb, keep stick back all the way, and use rudder to keep nose pointing skyward, full throttle). If anyone is familiar with remote control 3D flying, this is what I'm talking about.

I've noticed, especially with the Nieuports, that if you do the above, the plane will maintain nose pointing up, and you can use the engine and rudder to hold that position for a good while, constantly using the controls to keep upward direction. Even gaining altitude.

Also, while doing this, I noticed my speed NEVER gets below 30 or so knots, so you can essentially gain altitude by doing some 3D flying.

Now, if you cut the engine off, the plane will fall over as normal. So the prop is holding the plane up like a helicopter.


So I'm not sure if this is something that is part of the hardcoded fm, or if there is a setting I can adjust. In my newbie opinion it seems like there too much power to weight ratio going on in certain planes, like the Nieuports. In RC 3D flying, it's all about power to weight, that's what you need to do this: right about the 30 second is what I'm referring to:



"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4383686 - 10/07/17 12:53 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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AnKor Offline
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I've seen one mention of the same behavior and I believe it is likely the same issue. I just don't expect the cfs3 engine to behave well outside normal flight envelope smile
But a problem specific to WOFF is that for some aircrafts applying rudder greatly reduces the drag (especially sideways) and allows all kinds of weird stuff to happen.

#4383689 - 10/07/17 01:35 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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"The Dr1 is porked!"

Er, sorry. For a moment I was having a flashback to one of the RB3d FM flamewars on the Delphi flightsim forum. Has it really been almost 25 years ago now?

Seriously, it is nice to have some new blood on the forum to spice things up a bit. Welcome to the forum, TerribleTwo! New lad buys the drinks!

#4383690 - 10/07/17 01:58 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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A few points regarding the WOFFUE FM's:

1. As mentioned above, the FM's are individual for each aircraft, so there does tend to be some variability in FM's for different plane types.

2. Beginning, I think, with WOFF3, OBD took away the ability to directly modify some FM variables contained in the CFS3 .cfg and .air files, such as induced drag and parasitic drag. While you can alter these coefficients in the WOFF UE .xfm file, I have been unable to observe any effect on the FM when I manipulate these variables. If I recall, you could also fiddle around with engine settings such as hp and cylinder compression settings in the old files, but I could be mistaken.

Note: I am NOT trashing OBD's decision to remove these settings from our direct control, as I am sure this is a design issue, and I am confident OBD has very good reasons, most likely unknown to us, for doing so.

3. On the other hand, some settings, such as rudder effectiveness, roll damping, roll aoaReduction rate, and aoaZeroSpeed_mph, among many others, ARE available to us, so we do have some control over some aspects of flight. Perhaps tweaking these variables might address some of TT's concerns, although I am afraid the cure to his specific issue most likely lies around the aircraft drag and engine settings.

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 10/07/17 02:39 PM.
#4383708 - 10/07/17 03:37 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Looking at the FM for the Nieuports, I would concentrate on two variables: the aoaReduc_frac and the rudder propEffec_frac.

For all planes, the aoaReduction_frac ranges from .12 to .35, with the N11 and the N16 at the lowest setting of .12. Other Nieups are at .29.

The rudder propEffec_frac varies between 1.0 to 1.95, with an average of 1.16. Most of the Nieuports are set to 1.22, slightly higher than average, and perhaps a little too high for their relatively weak engines.

Therefore, try increasing the aoaReduction_frac and decreasing the rudder propEffec_frac a bit as a start.

#4383714 - 10/07/17 04:23 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Here we go again...

BTW some craft for example the Fok DVII could actually hang on the prop.
Nieuports are extremely light compared to some other a/c.

Also the a/c are well balanced and fit within their historical position relative to other craft.

For anyone who wants to create new FMs hope you have a lot of time, there's 80+ aircraft smile


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of the fabulously immersive
"WINGS: Over Flanders Fields" WW1 Sim.
http://www.overflandersfields.com
#4383720 - 10/07/17 05:04 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
Ankor, those aren't the issues I see. The rudder is too powerful at high angle of attacks and low speed (pulling up to high rate of climb, keep stick back all the way, and use rudder to keep nose pointing skyward, full throttle). If anyone is familiar with remote control 3D flying, this is what I'm talking about.

I've noticed, especially with the Nieuports, that if you do the above, the plane will maintain nose pointing up, and you can use the engine and rudder to hold that position for a good while, constantly using the controls to keep upward direction. Even gaining altitude.

Also, while doing this, I noticed my speed NEVER gets below 30 or so knots, so you can essentially gain altitude by doing some 3D flying.

Now, if you cut the engine off, the plane will fall over as normal. So the prop is holding the plane up like a helicopter.


So I'm not sure if this is something that is part of the hardcoded fm, or if there is a setting I can adjust. In my newbie opinion it seems like there too much power to weight ratio going on in certain planes, like the Nieuports. In RC 3D flying, it's all about power to weight, that's what you need to do this: right about the 30 second is .....



Can you vid capture this effect for us in WOFF while occasionally showing airspeed and post it here. Please identify which Newport models.

Tnx


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
Pwr Sup: OCZ, GameXStream,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4383729 - 10/07/17 05:54 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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JJJ65 Offline
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Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
Looking at the FM for the Nieuports, I would concentrate on two variables: the aoaReduc_frac and the rudder propEffec_frac.

For all planes, the aoaReduction_frac ranges from .12 to .35, with the N11 and the N16 at the lowest setting of .12. Other Nieups are at .29.

The rudder propEffec_frac varies between 1.0 to 1.95, with an average of 1.16. Most of the Nieuports are set to 1.22, slightly higher than average, and perhaps a little too high for their relatively weak engines.

Therefore, try increasing the aoaReduction_frac and decreasing the rudder propEffec_frac a bit as a start.

+1

#4383734 - 10/07/17 06:54 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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dutch Offline
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Just try this mod for the Albatros DV and the N17
https://combatace.com/files/file/14657-alb_dva_n17_fm_mod/

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