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#4383341 - 10/05/17 05:58 PM Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling.  
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I don't really care how accurate the fm is, rather, how it feels to just fly around, the sense of flight. So, DCS ww2 fighters, RoF, and Il-2 BoS have great feeling of flight. I can also live with a fm that is akin to FSX. So how does WoFF feel in this category?

And if anyone is kind enough, or have knowledge of, Aces High 3 is free to try and fly a couple WW1 fighters. In particular, how does the DR1 in WoFF compare to the AH3 Dr1? That would give me an idea.

Last edited by TerribleTwo; 10/05/17 05:59 PM.

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#4383346 - 10/05/17 06:37 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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After 250+ hours of ROF using Pat Wilson's Campaign Generator, WOFF's FMs feel... well... bad... There isn't much of a feeling of flight, side slipping is unexpectedly confusing and seems to result in a flat horizontal turn (no roll tendency like one would expect and slipping doesn't seem to carry forward momentum) and doesn't seem to help much with decelerating and that's aside from the fact that there is very little sensation of speed in the first place.

No experience with AH3 so I can't compare. I would say that FM are akin to vanilla FSX's feel/quality. I mean... It was born from MS CFS3... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That being said, although not relevant to the question, between ROF and WOFF as WWI "immersion/experience simulation" goes WOFF beats the pants off of ROF every day of the week and then some.

Last edited by FalkeEins; 10/05/17 06:38 PM.
#4383352 - 10/05/17 07:02 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Why are you wasting people's time asking them to spell out the obvious for you. WoFF is based upon CFS3. The FM's are improvements/modifications on that base.


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#4383360 - 10/05/17 07:19 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Wasting time Ace? And I was assuming WoFF's community was the best around..

I have no experience with CFS3 or have any clue how it flew. I also have no idea how much improvement was put into the fm by the WoFF team. So, therein lies the origin of my question. I'm absolutely clueless on how it flies.

Thanks FalkeEins for your detailed analysis.


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#4383370 - 10/05/17 08:00 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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I will chime in here with my experiences.
I don't subscribe to FalkenEins analysis of the FM.

I frequently side slip on landings and force quick deceleration. It definitely works and I can sustain it.
I don't see why he can't too.
Flat turn in the DR1 is possibly and I can do it but it does bleed of speed if done to the max.

I don't fly other sims but the FM in WOFF is miles above native CFS3


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#4383371 - 10/05/17 08:17 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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I get the distinct impression this thread follows the 'why is it suspiciously good' line. Put bluntly, it has the better team, people who actually care about ww1 and flying. If you want the bland arcade experience, go play RoF and il2. If you want something better that's made with passion...well, that's why you're here isn't it.


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#4383376 - 10/05/17 08:39 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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I would differ with FalkeEins assesment of the sensations of speed.
I get plenty of sensation of speed while tree hopping in a DVIIF trying to run away from an angry pack of Spad XIII's.
Flying in a 757 at 30000 feet, there is little sensation of speed even though i know I am doing 550mph.

I have read countless times of this "sense of flight" and so far, while sitting in a chair staring at a monitor, have not found anything that compares to the real thing.

Even should the FM, be not 100% and might have some quirks, any of those are easily forgotten when I become immersed due to all the other aspects of WOFF.

Last edited by Stache; 10/05/17 08:48 PM.

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#4383382 - 10/05/17 09:14 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Yes I completely understand the other aspects of the game, that's why it's considered one of the best single player aerial combat experiences of all time.. That's the selling point so I don't need that persuasive factor. I really do need a comparison somehow on the fm, and it's "feel". I'm one of those weird cats that dismiss all other aspects of aerial flight if the fm doesn't feel "good".... Doesn't have to be accurate, just good.

I can't play IL-2 FB because it's got a bit too much artificial feel to the fm.

I appreciate the detailed responses. I'd scoop it up right away, but $45 is enough for DCS Normandy, or the BF109k, or even upgrading Steel Beasts to version 4...


Last edited by TerribleTwo; 10/05/17 09:17 PM.

"College graduates should not have to live out their 20s in their childhood bedrooms, staring up at fading Obama posters and wondering when they can move out and get going with life" - Paul Ryan
#4383384 - 10/05/17 09:18 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
Yes I completely understand the other aspects of the game, that's why it's considered one of the best single player aerial combat experiences of all time.. That's the selling point so I don't need that persuasive factor. I really do need a comparison somehow on the fm, and it's "feel". I'm one of those weird cats that dismiss all other aspects of aerial flight if the fm doesn't feel "good".... Doesn't have to be accurate, just good.

I can't play IL-2 FB because it's got a bit too much artificial feel to the fm.

I appreciate them detailed responses. I'd scoop it up right away, but $45 is enough for DCS Normandy, or the BF109k.




I don't know how to alleviate your concerns. I have no idea what your expectation levels are and whether or not you would like the FM's. I can generate a video to demo the side slip and speed drop with extreme rudder on but that would only give you the visual and not the full experience.
If there is something you would like to see demo'd any one of us can provide it for you. I certainly am willing.


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#4383395 - 10/05/17 09:53 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins

-snip-

I frequently side slip on landings and force quick deceleration. It definitely works and I can sustain it.
I don't see why he can't too.

-snip-


My experience has been that when my flight lead slows down and I *attempt* to put the plane in a slip it ends with me flat turning towards the lead and blowing past him anyway. Instead of slowing down in a slip I've had to cut engine power to a sputter in these situations.

I also don't have to counter the attempted slip with much aileron because there seems to be no roll tendency and since slipping results in a flat turn I don't maintain much forward momentum... Too busy flat turning.

With all of that aside, while the FM isn't what I'm used to I'm really enamored with everything else OBD has managed to do with WOFF. I've never had such a positive SP experience. The AI is engaging, the world is full of life, lots of replayability with the massive amount of content, lots of great community made mods.

When I caught wind of WOFF I asked the same question as OP and the answers I received have been accurate to my experience. I didn't come with the expectation of FM fidelity like ROF or IL-2 BOX and I'm therefore completely happy with my purchase and my experience.

Originally Posted by matmilne
I get the distinct impression this thread follows the 'why is it suspiciously good' line. Put bluntly, it has the better team, people who actually care about ww1 and flying. If you want the bland arcade experience, go play RoF and il2. If you want something better that's made with passion...well, that's why you're here isn't it.


While bland is entirely accurate as far as ground/air life I can't say I agree with the "arcade" part. The guys at 777 certainly do have a passion for what they do. Anybody in the business of creating consumer flight simulators does.

Last edited by FalkeEins; 10/05/17 09:58 PM.
#4383396 - 10/05/17 09:54 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: Stache]  
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Originally Posted by Stache
-snip-

Even should the FM, be not 100% and might have some quirks, any of those are easily forgotten when I become immersed due to all the other aspects of WOFF.


This.

#4383398 - 10/05/17 10:06 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
-snip-

I can't play IL-2 FB because it's got a bit too much artificial feel to the fm.

I appreciate the detailed responses. I'd scoop it up right away, but $45 is enough for DCS Normandy, or the BF109k, or even upgrading Steel Beasts to version 4...



To be completely honest I would compare the WOFF FM to modded IL-2 1946.

I never played CFS3 but I'm sure WOFF's FM improved things. Modded 1946 is an upgrade from vanilla FB but it still "is what it is."

I own all of the DCS stuff but it's always been a little too sandboxy for me and the poor DM (as it applies to the WWII planes) was kind of a turnoff. Systems modeling is obviously the best of the best but past that I always felt like there wasn't much to do.

Last edited by FalkeEins; 10/05/17 10:07 PM.
#4383404 - 10/05/17 10:39 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: Robert_Wiggins]  
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Originally Posted by Robert_Wiggins
Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
Yes I completely understand the other aspects of the game, that's why it's considered one of the best single player aerial combat experiences of all time.. That's the selling point so I don't need that persuasive factor. I really do need a comparison somehow on the fm, and it's "feel". I'm one of those weird cats that dismiss all other aspects of aerial flight if the fm doesn't feel "good".... Doesn't have to be accurate, just good.

I can't play IL-2 FB because it's got a bit too much artificial feel to the fm.

I appreciate them detailed responses. I'd scoop it up right away, but $45 is enough for DCS Normandy, or the BF109k.




I don't know how to alleviate your concerns. I have no idea what your expectation levels are and whether or not you would like the FM's. I can generate a video to demo the side slip and speed drop with extreme rudder on but that would only give you the visual and not the full experience.
If there is something you would like to see demo'd any one of us can provide it for you. I certainly am willing.




If you're willing to download Aces High 3 (its free and requires no registration,and relatively small), go into offline arena and take the Dr1 for a spin. Before you do that be sure that "stall limiter" is off in options - flight menu. If you can do that, compare the two, I'd be much obliged. That way I could get a "feel" for how WoFF handles flight.

Last edited by TerribleTwo; 10/05/17 10:40 PM.

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#4383409 - 10/05/17 10:53 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Not being an actual pilot, this is all very subjective. I find the feeling of closure to be similar between RoF and WOFF, as well as the difficulty in holding a steady firing position. I think that the inline engine craft do pretty well but the rotary craft lack some of their idiosyncratic character. The camel doesn't seem to cause it's historical handling problems, for example. The ground handling is also fairly simplistic. With the later wind modeling added and improved upon in the Ultimate Edition, I think it has gotten a lot better in the feel department. I haven't flown RoF much lately, there isn't enough to do once I get in there to justify the hard drive real estate, but another thing to keep in mind is how the feeling of combat builds from the feeling of flight, and there WOFF really does a good job. Most RoF flights seem to turn into descending races to the deck, whereas in WOFF, you tend to get more opportunity for the individual plane characteristics to matter. Hope that helps somewhat and hope to see you in the skies!

salute

#4383417 - 10/05/17 11:12 PM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: FalkeEins]  
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Originally Posted by FalkeEins

While bland is entirely accurate as far as ground/air life I can't say I agree with the "arcade" part. The guys at 777 certainly do have a passion for what they do. Anybody in the business of creating consumer flight simulators does.


Unless you're a pilot, you haven't encountered the 'feeling of flight' yet. Real pilots play WoFF all the time, and it comes with a Royal Aeronautical Society recommendation.
please understand, I did some work with 777, for RoF and BoM, and they were almost totally disinterested behind the scenes. The guys at OBD were a completely different matter, the interest and focus was there from the start, an almost opposite work environment.


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#4383428 - 10/06/17 01:04 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
I really do need a comparison somehow on the fm, and it's "feel". I'm one of those weird cats that dismiss all other aspects of aerial flight if the fm doesn't feel "good".... Doesn't have to be accurate, just good.


Sounds like you are very particular.

Originally Posted by TerribleTwo

If you're willing to download Aces High 3 go into offline arena and take the Dr1 for a spin. That way I could get a "feel" for how WoFF handles flight.


We have all been telling you it is "good" enough for us.
I have no interest in trying to do a comparison to AH3 in one particular plane model - that's no comparison at all.
Maybe someone else will, but whatever we "feel" will be what we "feel" and may not correlate to what you would feel at all.

The only way for you to "get a feel" is for you to fly WOFF yourself.


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#4383433 - 10/06/17 01:31 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Not necessarily Stache. The reason I suggest Aces High 3 and not RoF is because AH3 is not state of the art flight modelling. So if WoFF exceeds AH3, then that's good enough for me. I like the feel in Aces High. So it provides an excellent baseline for forming an opinion. We all know RoF is great and WoFF doesn't match that level. But I don't need or want that. I simply would like for someone, and I was assuming Mr Wiggins was volunteering to go a step further in helping me out.

I can't just throw out $45 to see what it's all about. With tight money, it's not my style.

Last edited by TerribleTwo; 10/06/17 01:32 AM.

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#4383437 - 10/06/17 01:46 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
Not necessarily Stache. The reason I suggest Aces High 3 and not RoF is because AH3 is not state of the art flight modelling. So if WoFF exceeds AH3, then that's good enough for me. I like the feel in Aces High. So it provides an excellent baseline for forming an opinion. We all know RoF is great and WoFF doesn't match that level. But I don't need or want that. I simply would like for someone, and I was assuming Mr Wiggins was volunteering to go a step further in helping me out.

I can't just throw out $45 to see what it's all about. With tight money, it's not my style.


Well I took your suggestion and downloaded AH3, flew the DR1 as you suggested and I can tell you that my impression was the FM sucked big time. I have to say WOFF FM is hands down way ahead of AH3.
That is my personal opinion and other may not agree for what ever reason. If you like AH3, you will find WOFF absolutely amazing!

Cheers mate!


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#4383439 - 10/06/17 01:48 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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LOL... I LOVE these conversations...

Here, I'll give you a good example of how silly some of this gets.

I work for a major international carrier that happens to be based at LHR and fly to JFK on a daily basis... for 25 years now... I have an FAA A/P and I carry 3 EASA licenses (B747, B777 and B767). OK... so I know a thing or two about being hands-on with very large planes.

I have Prepar3dv4, and PMDG's 747-400 and 777-200/300ER along with countless other planes installed.

For the fun of practicing my job, I load-up the 747-400 and "break it" based on what I know about the plane... well... it doesn't quite 'feel' right to me when it breaks. The CMC (Central Maintenance Computer) fails to give me the correct FIM (Fault Isolation Manual) codes.. so I can't clear messages the way I could normally... I can't flip the 'Ground Enable' swith on the P441, so I can't do the correct ground tests when I need to... I can't get into the Lower 41 to pull the breakers I normally would pull for No Land 3 status messages... I can't pull the P6 breakers for the "Pack" status messages... All I can do is a pack reset on the P5. AND there's NO MEL so I can't ADD anything!!!! Oh yeah... where's the the Tech Log??? How can I release the damn plane out without a Tech Log?!?!?!

Get what I'm saying?? ... it's a damn simulator... hence the term 'simulation' meaning... not real... meant to seem like real... meant to be kinda real.... meant to have fun with...

Not selling the game... but we broke our collective asses for over 10 years to bring to the community the best possible work as we could. The only pilots I have ever met that have flown these era planes were at Rhinebeck and The VA in New Zealand and they all said the same thing... quirky as hell to fly and a real work out after one hour you're ready for bed. So take that for what it is, a Jumbo (747-400) at cruise altitude of FL390 will turn on the pressure from breathing too hard on the yoke (actual quote from a Captain I'm friends with) .... and no one simulates that in any simulator either.

Just enjoy the skies over Flanders ... I'm happy as hell I can.

OvS


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#4383442 - 10/06/17 02:05 AM Re: Don't "sell" the game, be honest about the flight modelling. [Re: TerribleTwo]  
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I was trying to state that just comparing a single aircraft FM is not a reasonable comparison for the entire simulation.
We all know that there are a great many people who do not like the FM of certain RoF planes. (any say nerfed Camel?)

Originally Posted by TerribleTwo
Not necessarily Stache. The reason I suggest Aces High 3 and not RoF is because AH3 is not state of the art flight modelling. So if WoFF exceeds AH3, then that's good enough for me. I like the feel in Aces High. So it provides an excellent baseline for forming an opinion. We all know RoF is great and WoFF doesn't match that level. But I don't need or want that. I simply would like for someone, and I was assuming Mr Wiggins was volunteering to go a step further in helping me out.


But wait... you already state that AH3 is not state of the art FM, but you like the "FEEL".

Glad Robert went the distance and tried AH3, but all he told you was the FM sucked, nothing about how it "FEELS".

Can you describe why you like the feel AH3?

Last edited by Stache; 10/06/17 02:08 AM.

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