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#4382300 - 09/30/17 09:55 PM monitors... how slow is too slow?  
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Rick.50cal Offline
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Looking at a touchscreen monitor, good price. But... it's listed as 9 miliseconds on the display specs. Now, I know that some hardcore gamers seem to want that down to 2ms, but how much will 8 or 9 really make any difference for an "average" gamer like myself? i mean I'm not doing FPS competitions for real money prizes... just a few flight sims, a few racing sims, a few FPS games... I get the feeling the racing sims will be the hardest hit with the delay, but I dunno really.

Any thoughts?


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#4382305 - 09/30/17 10:51 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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I always seem to buy monitors in the 5ms+ category -- because of better contrast and color reproduction. I've never tried one listed at over 10ms.

Like you, I don't play games to win against human competition (where a few ms might make a difference once a year). I never notice a problem (maybe I'm not observant enough).

Just a data point. I'm no expert.


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#4382369 - 10/01/17 02:43 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Why use a touchscreen?


- Ice
#4382391 - 10/01/17 07:18 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: - Ice]  
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Last edited by Rick.50cal; 10/01/17 07:23 PM.

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#4382403 - 10/01/17 09:22 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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I am well aware of using touchscreens as secondary display output and the touchscreen function is used as in Helios like in the videos you mentioned. However, you were talking about response times and I perhaps mistakenly assumed you were going to use the touchscreen as a PRIMARY display device which prompted the question.

Unless I am mistaken, the response time for a secondary display output is not important especially in these situations. How "mission critical" is it really if you flicked a switch and got a 15ms response delay? biggrin IMHO, the response time is only important for the primary display output as the picture there changes constantly. For Helios and gauge display, response time isn't really a deal breaker.


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#4383173 - 10/04/17 09:06 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Want it for primary display. Primarily for civilian flight sims. The delay for those won't likely matter.

BUT...

Thatt's not all I use.

In a military simulation dogfight, would such a delay cause me to miss a shot? I mean, he jinks to the left, I move my stick and fire, but since that's delayed, he's already jinked back to the right and I don't even see it because I'm seeing him jink to the Left, which is old news now.

Or, in racing simulations, cornering hard, back end comes loose, I steer into the skid, but the delay is such it's already too late to recover. Maybe.

I don't know in practical terms what 9 miliseconds means, in response times for dogfighting or racing, and am hoping that others with experience might have some idea.

Last edited by Rick.50cal; 10/04/17 09:07 PM.

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#4383180 - 10/04/17 10:48 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Quote
Since this site was created, it's recorded 54,757,219 reaction time clicks. The median reaction time is 271 milliseconds. The average reaction time is 282 ..


Quote
110ms is the fastest possible reaction time a human being can achieve


So 2ms vs 5ms vs 9ms is 3ms to 7ms delay. Less than one tenth of the fastest reaction time and less than one 30th of the average reaction time.

Like I mentioned in my post above, that should make a difference about once a year in gaming (when is pure luck) --- for normal folks like us.

Nonetheless, for mega-serious gamers who compete against human opponents, its reasonable to want the fastest -- and maybe get that one extra "kill" per year.

Just an uninformed opinion.


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#4383208 - 10/05/17 01:21 AM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Something I've wondered is how does VSync and refresh rate play into response time?

If the monitor is updating at 60fps, that's like 16ms of display time per frame?


WARNING: This post contains opinions produced in a facility which also occasionally processes fact products.
#4383269 - 10/05/17 01:01 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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I assume 60fps framerate is like 16ms per frame.

Using two GPU for CrossFireX or SLI can speed up the framerate. However, the method used in CrossFireX and SLI can result in "frame delays" larger than the framerate implies.

As posted above: With the advent of Vega and DX12, CrossFireX is out and mGPU is in. mGPU nominally does not have the delay "issues" of CrossFire and SLI.


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#4383324 - 10/05/17 04:52 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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My thinking has always been that using a 60 Hz refresh, any monitor able to change the image fully in half that time or so (thus having time to change and clearly display the new image before the next change), will probably do me OK.

If something in a game happens 8ms after a screen refresh, having a 2ms monitor will not reveal it any faster, since I'll still have to wait the full 8ms remaining before the next frame refreshes. Going on up to a 144 Hz refresh would seem to be a solution for this, allowing down to 7ms display time per frame. But I've never researched the tech to know whether it works out that way in practice.


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#4383375 - 10/05/17 08:33 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Originally Posted by Rick.50cal
Want it for primary display. Primarily for civilian flight sims. The delay for those won't likely matter.

Interesting. Depending on the sim, some may not work as primary display.


Originally Posted by Rick.50cal
In a military simulation dogfight, would such a delay cause me to miss a shot? I mean, he jinks to the left, I move my stick and fire, but since that's delayed, he's already jinked back to the right and I don't even see it because I'm seeing him jink to the Left, which is old news now.

I don't think this will be much of an issue unless you're doing a quick guns snapshot. Most guns kills are tracking shots, I think, and you'll definitely be tracking him for more than 9ms smile This parameter is really more for twitch gaming like counterstrike, I would argue that racing and combat flight sims are much less "twitch"-y.


- Ice
#4383446 - 10/06/17 02:25 AM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Ok, so thank you all very much, gentlemen! This is exactly the kinds of answers I was hoping for, and the content of those answers pleases me!

I'm no super-dogfighter, and I'm not being paid thousands to win a shooter tournament, heck I doubt I could even qualify to enter such tourneys! So the "display delay" as Allen describes it should do very well for me!



Basically I scored two large touchscreen monitors, for cheap. These are commercial duty, meant for mall displays, or kiosk interactive displays for all the kids and teens to bash, throw up on, not break, and continue displaying for years and years continuous use. When these were first introduced to the industry market, the first bunch were priced around $2700 US. I just got them for a steal, at $270 Canadian each! So for under $600 cash, I now have two 42" touchscreen monitors!

Touchscreens seem to work for DCS 2.0 and X-Plane. I'm not 100% sure, but I think Falcon BMS' current version also is touchscreen compatible.

I ordered a Delan Engineering head tracking device, it's basically a "budget TrackIR" from England...

http://www.delanengineering.com/

sure I could have built one, but I know I'll have my hands full trying to set all the preferences for everything, I wanted a turnkey thing, and it seems to be well received by people who bought it. Also the arm what holds the LED's is cut from a sheet of stainless steel, so it won't likely break like the TIR apparently does!

This is the package I picked:
http://www.delanengineering.com/shop/#!/DelanClip-Gamer/p/43397050/category=0


So the idea is, head tracking on the large screen, tilt head forward to zoom in on part of the virtual cockpit where the switch or lever is located, and physically touch that switch on the screen, and move head to see out the windows again! And with DCS now having the Northrop F-5E Tiger, I've watched several youtubes of it in action, and I think I'll enjoy dogfighting in that tiny jet! Not so complex as to take forever to learn, easy enough to fly, but a challenge to win a fight... sounds about right!


POLITICS, WAR, ECONOMY, CONTROVERSY! and other heated discussions and debates in the PWEC sub-forum at the bottom of this forum main page. See you there!
#4383461 - 10/06/17 08:02 AM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Originally Posted by Rick.50cal
Basically I scored two large touchscreen monitors, for cheap. These are commercial duty, meant for mall displays, or kiosk interactive displays for all the kids and teens to bash, throw up on, not break, and continue displaying for years and years continuous use. When these were first introduced to the industry market, the first bunch were priced around $2700 US. I just got them for a steal, at $270 Canadian each! So for under $600 cash, I now have two 42" touchscreen monitors!

Wow, that's a great deal!! Pics when you get it set up please!!

Originally Posted by Rick.50cal
Touchscreens seem to work for DCS 2.0 and X-Plane. I'm not 100% sure, but I think Falcon BMS' current version also is touchscreen compatible.

Just set up BMS on my touchscreen and.... nope. Doesn't work. I remember there was some explanation to this in the BMS forums but can't exactly remember the explanation.


- Ice
#4383498 - 10/06/17 01:02 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Hmm... Viperpits was making F16 pits for BMS, and their latest was going to be touchscreen panels to have multiple aircraft types represented, but i have no idea if they were thinking of a different sim for it? Or maybe they have a script or patch to enable it? I dunno...


Edit:
Yea,i thought someone had figured it out, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7lEzNNp_BE

Last edited by Rick.50cal; 10/06/17 01:09 PM.

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#4383506 - 10/06/17 01:47 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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I think you misunderstand.... if you use a touchscreen as a secondary monitor plus Helios, then yes, it works with BMS. You can control the switches on the 2nd monitor and have a separate monitor (non-touch or touch, doesn't matter) for the actual display. What I tried was actually displaying BMS on a touchscreen, looking at the ICP, and "pressing the buttons" on the screen to see if I can get any input. I could not. I could do it if I "clicked" via the mouse pointer, but tapping on the screen did nothing. Therefore, using a touchscreen as a primary monitor for BMS will give you no advantage compared to using a non-touchscreen as a primary monitor.

I am under the impression that the situation is different for other sims such as DCS or XP11 where you can use a touchscreen as a primary monitor and use the touch function to activate switches and press buttons, but I've not tried this.


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#4384232 - 10/10/17 08:46 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Sooooo.... what about designating your main touchscreen... as your "secondary"? And just have the "main" feed go... nowhere? Or to an old 16" monitor? I mean maybe that wouldn't work, but I'd be trying something like that!

Also, what about the BMS team? are they working on touch support?


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#4384420 - 10/11/17 06:38 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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I currently have 3x 27" main screens and two touchscreens for Helios display. As for BMS, I don't think they're working on this frown


- Ice
#4386677 - 10/25/17 03:00 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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I got in on LCDs in the early days and a 15" Samsung LCD with 30ms response time cost me $1,000.00 CAD, after taxes. I gamed on it and it was OK so 9ms should not be too bad in comparison.

#4390915 - 11/22/17 06:02 PM Re: monitors... how slow is too slow? [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Originally Posted by Rick.50cal
In a military simulation dogfight, would such a delay cause me to miss a shot? I mean, he jinks to the left, I move my stick and fire, but since that's delayed, he's already jinked back to the right and I don't even see it because I'm seeing him jink to the Left, which is old news now.

Or, in racing simulations, cornering hard, back end comes loose, I steer into the skid, but the delay is such it's already too late to recover. Maybe.

I don't know in practical terms what 9 miliseconds means, in response times for dogfighting or racing, and am hoping that others with experience might have some idea.

Here, it sounds like you're actually mistaking response time (the time for pixels to change from one value to another) with input lag (the time it takes for the display to finish processing the video signal it's being fed before it can tell the pixels to start changing).

Input lag is generally not an issue with computer monitors since most people are likely to notice their mouse cursor movement feeling off, though HDTVs are a completely different story. Most of those are terrible at maintaining low input lag.

Response time has more to do with the overall motion clarity of the image - if each new frame looks sharp, or if it's a blurred mess like someone set the shutter speeds on a camera too long (which causes motion blur). It's not consistent throughout all transition types, either; for example, my Eizo FG2421 has a VA panel (as opposed to the more common TN or IPS panel types) that handles most transitions fine, but black/dark grey transitions tend to leave this noticeable smear behind due to VA generally having slow response times for those transitions.

One other factor nobody has considered thus far in the motion clarity equation is refresh rate. Most displays are 60 Hz, but there's a reason 120/144 Hz monitors exist. (The aforementioned FG2421 is a 120 Hz monitor.) The higher refresh rate, assuming your computer can maintain that framerate in a game, means you're seeing more information in a given second than you normally would have, allowing you to pick up on changes faster and notice everything just moving much more smoothly. It's also a big reason why the major VR HMDs run at 90 Hz instead of just 60 Hz; motion clarity is paramount with a system that relies on head-tracking.

High refresh rates and near-instantaneous response times are actually a big reason why I found it difficult to move on from CRTs for so long, since those are areas where they still wipe the floor with LCDs and are preferred for gaming. The FG2421 was the first monitor I laid eyes on that wasn't a total downgrade by comparison.

Finally, there's the sample-and-hold blur inherent to LCDs and most other flat-panel types. CRTs strobe, which makes for better motion clarity - and also headache-inducing flicker if the refresh rate is too low, like 60 Hz. LCDs generally don't strobe at all, making them easier on the eyes, but blurbusters.com pioneered the whole notion of hacking LightBoost monitors for 2D strobing due to the improvements in motion clarity, which in turn led to Ultra Low Motion Blur strobing modes on high-refresh-rate gaming monitors produced over the last few years. The drawback is that it's fundamentally incompatible with variable-refresh-rate techniques like G-SYNC and FreeSync, since it's basically deliberate PWM backlighting that requires a consistent frequency for a given perceived brightness. (Also, VR HMDs strobe by default; it's how they achieve low persistence.)

All in all, I'd say that a typical 4ms response time monitor will be fine for general use, so long as you're not an extremely competitive gamer who demands that extra bit of motion clarity.


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