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#4373816 - 08/11/17 03:41 AM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Antoninus]  
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Originally Posted by Antoninus
For me concentrating on carrier warfare and starting with Midway as the most famous battle seems to be a reasonable approach to make a first Pacific war sim with limited resources.

Shouldn‘t it be possible to expand the battle of Midway scenario to a decent full early war carrier campaign with limited amount of additional work? Just as they added the Stalingrad summer and fall map and campaign later. Wake, the Gilbert and Marshall islands all only have tiny landmasses, the latter can be used again later for a 1943/1944 campaign. The Battles of the Coral Sea or the the Santa Cruz islands wouldn’t require any land bases at all. All doable with largely the same limited planeset a and a few more ships. Enough gameplay and both sides are well balanced.


Coral Sea and Santa Cruz were fought within range of land bases in New Guinea and the Solomons, respectively, and land based aircraft did play a role (if largely ineffectual at the tactical level) in those engagements. I will take whatever PTO sim I can get, and I suppose you could get away with an abstract water only map for those fights, but, for a realistic representation of Coral Sea or Santa Cruz, you would really need that Solomons map . . .

If the Midway game actually has a few maps representing small atolls such as Wake, the Gilberts, and/or Marshalls, you could have a somewhat satisfying campaign starting with the early carrier actions and culminating in Midway . .. it would still be short relative to the Eastern Front, but the nature of naval-air operations was that carrier pilots tended to fly fewer combat missions/per day (in the sense of a mission where there was a realistic chance of enemy contact, vs routing CAP and ASW patrols) in theater than their land based counterparts.

#4374363 - 08/14/17 10:59 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Antoninus]  
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Originally Posted by Antoninus
For me concentrating on carrier warfare and starting with Midway as the most famous battle seems to be a reasonable approach to make a first Pacific war sim with limited resources.

Shouldn‘t it be possible to expand the battle of Midway scenario to a decent full early war carrier campaign with limited amount of additional work? Just as they added the Stalingrad summer and fall map and campaign later. Wake, the Gilbert and Marshall islands all only have tiny landmasses, the latter can be used again later for a 1943/1944 campaign. The Battles of the Coral Sea or the the Santa Cruz islands wouldn’t require any land bases at all. All doable with largely the same limited planeset a and a few more ships. Enough gameplay and both sides are well balanced.


The issue is that the entire Battle of Midway lasted less than three days. Much less if you think about it. The main battle took place over a 24 hour period. Yes Coral Sea and Santa Cruz were primarily naval battles but again, other than throwing in different ships (add the Saratoga and Wasp, Shokaku and Zuihu) the fight would be pretty much the same. Stalingrad was a months long event with different kinds of missions. This would turn into a niche thing rapidly with players. Most wouldn't even consider taking up a Dauntless or a Kate since it will be nothing more than Air Quake with Zekes and Wildcats duking it out.

It needs greater context to bring in players. It is an ok starting point, or a 'beta' to try out carrier ops with the engine but for it to be a true game that is worth the cost of a serious upgrade (read cost of a full priced title) then it needs to be a battle of the Central and South Pacific. It's either that or make it a fight for the Phillippines with a ground and air component. Personally I would like this.


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#4380798 - 09/22/17 02:32 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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I think the next chapter should be called 'The Slot'. Would not only encompass early fights (Guadalcanal proper) but also follow on with airwar around and over Rabul. There were some carrier battles also, so having 'The Slot' would allow a wider range of tactical environments than simply 'Midway'.

#4381443 - 09/26/17 08:00 AM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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I'd buy that. The fighting in 1942-43 has been ignored for the most part. It was truly the last time that the Allies and Imperial Japanese fought on an almost equal basis, especially in the beginning. By the end of 1943 the Allies began to take total control of the air and the quality of the Imperial Japanese pilots and aircraft started to really decline.


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#4381655 - 09/27/17 12:38 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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As long as there are F4Us in it, I'll buy next smile
Slot is great, Okinawa is great, Mariannas are great, Philippines too, whatever place with enough land for a plausible ground battle, even on a small scale, combined with seaborne ops is great, but if there are F4Us involved it's instant deal

#4381718 - 09/27/17 05:08 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
I was under the impression the new "IL-2" series was a online airquake game (created by, and for Alberts online group) but all these grandiose expectations here tells me otherwise. Has it matured?


There is a lot of really bad things you could accurately say about the new IL-2 series as well as the developers. But airquake game isnt one of them.

As for midway. They have to get carrier groups and carrier landings working. It will come with a midway map and an empty water map and a fantasy campaign. That would be my guess at least. Maybe several other maps with some islands with targets you can attack like storage facilities, harbors, refineries etc.

#4381764 - 09/27/17 09:40 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
Not sure that I would have done Midway as a move towards the Pacific. I'm happy that they are going there, but Midway is not a deep enough campaign to keep everybody busy for the length of time that Stalingrad seems to have. Or even CLOD. How long will it take to tire of fighting over that mile long little island.
Guadalcanal. That's what they should be doing.


It seems you don't understand how that works: The idea is to limit the scenario to the smallest scale possible, so as to sell you multiple full price games with little content - basicly the "DLC" concept taken a step further; Next-Gen DLC, if you will - while also drawing in the gullible masses via flashy names like "Stalingrad", "Moscow" or "Battle of Midway", which everybody knows.

Simple, really. Everything else is just noise. Hey, why after all would they sell you a fully featured game like "1942: The Pacific Air War" when people today are glad to buy or even pre-order half assed unfinished products for 60+ bucks? People are getting what they deserve.

#4381789 - 09/27/17 11:48 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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No doubt they will maximize profits, but, considering that the price of video games has not scaled up with inflation (let alone the increased personnel cost of making them), the reality is a decent video game probably needs to retail for a lot more that $50-$60; my guess would be in the $100-$120 range. Most studios, it seems, are getting around the sticker shock of such a price increase by spreading it out over DLC, multi-part releases, etc. But there is a reason very few serious simulations or strategy games have been released these last 5 years or so, and it is not because of any malicious intent on the part of softwafe programmers or game designers.

#4381802 - 09/28/17 02:09 AM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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But it HAS scaled up, you are contradicting yourself there. It doesn't matter whether you pay more for the same offer or pay the same for less. And actually, even still, absolute prices have increased with "inflation", at least in Euroland.

Aside from that, the "malicious" intent is also there in the form of, yes, they are going to sell it for what the "market" is willing to pay for it, and that part of the equation they have much improved to their advantage through getting much better at marketing shenanigans and more effectively utilizing through social media their fanboi army that is gladly doing for free what no company some 10 years ago could have afforded doing without a gigantic marketing department on the scale of some Hollywood studio. Some of them might even be paid forum shills or developer alt accounts, though that is probably not even necessary. Then also heavy shilling by giving free "review" copies to flightsim sites and especially Youtube channels. And going the "Early Access" route, which means nothing other than releasing unfinished software with no obligation or timetable to finish it, with the customer paying for the "privilege" to be a beta - or alpha - tester.

Another reason why less is on offer flightsim-wise as time goes on is also that people are getting dumber each day. No, really. The overall market is getting relatively dumber by more and more influx from the masses into the computer gaming hobby, but people as such are also getting absolutely dumber, because they are being engineered that way.


#4382062 - 09/29/17 01:20 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: heartc]  
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Originally Posted by heartc
Originally Posted by Pooch
Not sure that I would have done Midway as a move towards the Pacific. I'm happy that they are going there, but Midway is not a deep enough campaign to keep everybody busy for the length of time that Stalingrad seems to have. Or even CLOD. How long will it take to tire of fighting over that mile long little island.
Guadalcanal. That's what they should be doing.


It seems you don't understand how that works: The idea is to limit the scenario to the smallest scale possible, so as to sell you multiple full price games with little content - basicly the "DLC" concept taken a step further; Next-Gen DLC, if you will - while also drawing in the gullible masses via flashy names like "Stalingrad", "Moscow" or "Battle of Midway", which everybody knows.

Simple, really. Everything else is just noise. Hey, why after all would they sell you a fully featured game like "1942: The Pacific Air War" when people today are glad to buy or even pre-order half assed unfinished products for 60+ bucks? People are getting what they deserve.


Chip on the shoulder verified.

All subsequent opinions will be taken with a bowl of salt.

#4382063 - 09/29/17 01:22 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: heartc]  
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Originally Posted by heartc
-snip-

marketing shenanigans and more effectively utilizing through social media their fanboi army that is gladly doing for free what no company some 10 years ago could have afforded doing without a gigantic marketing department on the scale of some Hollywood studio. Some of them might even be paid forum shills or developer alt accounts, though that is probably not even necessary.

-snip-


Build that straw man up!

#4382072 - 09/29/17 02:11 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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Do you have a problem? Did I hit a nerve with you? You are the sort of people that are allowing this hobby to go to $hit, by immediately trying to deflect ANY criticism anyone would voice against degenerate developements that are taking place.

#4382074 - 09/29/17 02:17 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: heartc]  
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Originally Posted by heartc
Do you have a problem? Did I hit a nerve with you? You are the sort of people that are allowing this hobby to go to #%&*$#, by immediately trying to deflect ANY criticism anyone would voice against degenerate developements that are taking place.


Do you have a problem? Did I hit a nerve with you?

Keep building that straw man! The real people who are allowing this hobby to go to #%&*$# are the people like you who trod around with a massive, pedantic, self-defeating chip on their shoulder spouting virtually baseless nothings, touting them as "criticism" when it's obviously simple bashing, doing everything you can to defeat and bankrupt the handful of developers who actually give more of a #%&*$# about this hobby and genre than you do and are creating massively niche products at a near guaranteed loss.

You've got nothing to offer that's any deeper than the suppositions you come up with out of whatever angst you feel... Just saying...

#4382076 - 09/29/17 02:24 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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Thanks for confirming you are just a marketing shill. You have not provided a single counter point anywhere that would address the issue at hand. All you are doing is damage control. How much do you get paid? Do you get free "test" copies? Where can I apply? Nah. I can't shill against the truth. Just can't do it. I leave that to shills like you.

#4382077 - 09/29/17 02:28 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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Oh, stupid me. You said so yourself in the other thread: "We don't deal with Loft anymore". Case closed. Maybe YOU try to make a good flightsim for a change, instead of shilling against customer criticism on the forums, how about that? But if it's true that there is only 1 programmer, and all the rest of you are marketing shills, then I begin to understand what is going on here. Holy crap.

#4382083 - 09/29/17 02:48 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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I'm a marketing shill? You're #%&*$# hilarious. You don't know me and you should really grow the #%&*$# up, man. That is THE absolute most sophomoric thing you could've done.

I didn't go point-for-point with another grown man (over the internet, mind you...) because nothing you've said has any true merit or substance but you have evidently written whatever you suppose to be true in to stone. I've read a bit of your post history and it illustrated to me that you live in a world of flight sim cognitive dissonance, you have no fundamental understanding of software development (I understand not everybody has had experience in that industry...), project/resource management and that it wasn't going to do me any good (nor did I owe it to you...) to explain my stance on anything because throughout your membership you've shown that you're not really interested in hearing the opinions of others or having civil discussions. You're not interested in new information. You're not interested in a "single counter point anywhere" not that you really made a point about anything in the first place... You're interested in the circle-jerk. You want an echo chamber. You want to baselessly suppose and assert those suppositions as dear fact - a "fact," that if disagreed upon, you will continue to assert as fact by doing your own damage control - accusing other people of being "shills," insult others on how they were "bullshitted" when you yourself are completely uninformed allthewhile trying to mitigate the burden of proof off on to the people you're insulting. Constant "REEEEEEEEEE MARKETING!!1!" It's disingenuous and frankly, completely immature.

You result to ad Hominem and creating straw men because your position has no real logical foundation, no merit and no substance. You attempt to use the assertion of your own supposition and insulting others as a validation of whatever hurt, angst or passive aggressiveness underlies in your posts.

SimHQ is generally a pretty welcoming community (especially the WoFF guys) but it's guys like you who give it the reputation it has throughout all of the flight simulation communities out there.

#4382084 - 09/29/17 02:49 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: heartc]  
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Originally Posted by heartc
Oh, stupid me. You said so yourself in the other thread: "We don't deal with Loft anymore". Case closed. Maybe YOU try to make a good flightsim for a change, instead of shilling against customer criticism on the forums, how about that? But if it's true that there is only 1 programmer, and all the rest of you are marketing shills, then I begin to understand what is going on here. Holy crap.


What in the god awful #%&*$# are you on about? We, as a community of players, don't have to deal with the design #%&*$# that Loft created. Loft's vision for IL-2 was #%&*$# terrible with gamey stuff like the unlocks, pilot levels, lack of co-op, etc.

Take your tinfoil hat somewhere else, bud. Again, you don't #%&*$# know me so don't act like you do.

Last edited by FalkeEins; 09/29/17 02:55 PM.
#4382085 - 09/29/17 02:52 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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And by the way, #%&*$#, I'm a 25 year old father of two from eastern South Dakota who is a computer support specialist for a non-profit.

Shilly enough for you, dumbass?

Last edited by FalkeEins; 09/29/17 02:55 PM.
#4382086 - 09/29/17 02:57 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: Nimits]  
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You are still not making any argument. And really, "tinfoil hat"? You feel the need to bring that up in a mere flightsim discussion? You should work on your PR skills. The "tinfoil hat" you are throwing around is but a good indicator that I'm right on target.

From what you said in the other thread:

Quote
It has nothing to do with a lack of programming skills or "making it too hard." That's entirely baseless and it seems you're a little misinformed about the resources 777/1CGS has available. Perhaps its that you have a chip on your shoulder because of the misguided direction that Loft wanted the product to follow?

We don't deal with Loft anymore. And thank god... Because if IL-2 had continued to follow his "vision" it wouldn't have improved in any of the ways that it has now and the future of the project would certainly be a lot duller.


So, where is the tinfoil hat here? And don't say "We" was "You" and the members of the flightsim community who were not happy with "Loft", like any number of community members would know who "Loft" is. You have blown your cover yourself, no "tinfoil hat" neccessary here.

#4382089 - 09/29/17 02:58 PM Re: Battle of Midway Game? [Re: heartc]  
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Originally Posted by heartc
You are still not making any argument. And really, "tinfoil hat"? You feel the need to bring that up in a mere flightsim discussion? You should work on your PR skills. The "tinfoil hat" you are throwing around is but a good indicator that I'm right on target.

From what you said in the other thread:

Quote
It has nothing to do with a lack of programming skills or "making it too hard." That's entirely baseless and it seems you're a little misinformed about the resources 777/1CGS has available. Perhaps its that you have a chip on your shoulder because of the misguided direction that Loft wanted the product to follow?

We don't deal with Loft anymore. And thank god... Because if IL-2 had continued to follow his "vision" it wouldn't have improved in any of the ways that it has now and the future of the project would certainly be a lot duller.


So, where is the tinfoil hat here? And don't say "We" was "You" and the members of the flightsim community who were not happy with "Loft", like any number of community members would know who "Loft" is. You have blown your cover yourself, no "tinfoil hat" neccessary here.






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