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#4378737 - 09/09/17 07:07 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Lifer
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Lifer

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Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Congrats! What a journey you two had so far...

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#4378793 - 09/10/17 01:01 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Dart Offline
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Battery is kaput, so no flight today. Darned thing has some sort of internal defect, it's shorting itself out.

Good thing it happened at the start and not while I was up in the air!


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
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#4378875 - 09/10/17 07:49 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Ayrshire, Scotland
Hi Dart,

I've been following your build with interest.

Could I suggest that the battery has a "dead cell" ?

What happens is that, if a lead acid battery is charged to quickly or drained too quickly the heat generated causes the plates inside the cells to distort. If two of these plates touch that then becomes a short in that cell and makes it a dead cell. This now drains power from the other cells in the battery. Only solution I'm aware of is to replace the battery.

Keep up the good work.

Andy


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
#4378904 - 09/11/17 12:39 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: AndyB]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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Originally Posted by AndyB
Hi Dart,

I've been following your build with interest.

Could I suggest that the battery has a "dead cell" ?

What happens is that, if a lead acid battery is charged to quickly or drained too quickly the heat generated causes the plates inside the cells to distort. If two of these plates touch that then becomes a short in that cell and makes it a dead cell. This now drains power from the other cells in the battery. Only solution I'm aware of is to replace the battery.

Keep up the good work.

Andy


Yep, she's shorting internally.

Zero volts, zero amps across the posts, but the battery is very warm to the touch. Removed it at 0800 and at 1100 it was still generating heat sitting on the concrete floor.

But it's a damned motorcycle battery, which is laughably inexpensive in the context of aviation pricing.

It was a bad luck/good luck kind of day.

Bad luck in that the battery took a dump in a big way.

Good luck in that it did it right at start-up in front of the hangar. Here I am all flying helmet, goggles, strapped in and shouting "clear prop" and the battery goes fzzt. It didn't take much trouble shooting to figure it out.

But fantastic that it did so right then and not fifteen minutes later when I would have been 1,500 feet above the ground and working best glide to the airstrip or a field with a silent engine.

It gives me time to refine my vane airspeed indicator and mount the gun.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
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#4378923 - 09/11/17 06:57 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Talking of warm batteries, I had not used my drone for about 10 days, everything was all charged up when I put it away and then due to weather and lots of low flying aircraft never got to use the drone, so when I got it out last week and selected a battery to install in the drone the battery was quite warm Eeek! and with all the scare stories about Li-po batteries ...

Anyway I knew that the battery is "intelligent" so it turns out after leaving it for 10 days with a full charge it will self discharge to 60% for long term storage, now I store the batteries separate from the drone!

P.S. I had took some pictures of the wheels and suspension setup on the Bleriot monoplane that was at the local airshow but alas my camera has developed a fault and everything is out of focus frown the focus mechanism won't focus more than about 1m away.


Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil
Sons of the hound come here and get flesh
Clan Cameron
#4379003 - 09/11/17 05:33 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Seems scary that something as basic as a cheap bike battery might cause another year-long repair... wink

I wonder... obviously there's no magnetos on this engine, but there's an alternator. Not being an electrician myself, but couldn't there be a capacitor or similar thing put into the circuitry which would store the energy of the alternator long enough to provide the next spark for the ignition...?

#4379019 - 09/11/17 06:48 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Good question RSColonel,

There is normally a rectifier pack attached to the alternator (if it's like a car one) that converts the AC the alternator generates in to DC. Is there no way to use the DC out put from the alternator to run the ignition circuits and only use the battery to start it ?

What does the battery power other than the ignition ?

Andy


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
#4379034 - 09/11/17 07:54 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Hi Andy,

I've not the first clue about these things myself but I might guess that the alternator (since it's a car engine, it might well be from a car) produces "spikes" of converted DC power, not a steady output, based on rotational angle. That's why I could imagine you would need something acting as a puffer in between to run the ignition from it.

Second question would be how the fuel is moved (electrical pump or gravity feed?)

I'm sure Dart has had hundreds of thoughts on the topic and very curious what he thinks. Just seems a shame that a 70EUR part failure could turn him into a glider pilot...

#4379089 - 09/12/17 05:15 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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The electricity is generated by, well, a generator that's on the back of the engine - magnets on the flywheel and the coil on a case behind it. Can't use an alternator because the prop is on that end. wink This goes into a voltage regulator that then charges the battery. Anything over 1500 RPM's generates enough to begin the flow - but since it's run through a big (make two fists, put them together at the thumbs and that's about the size) regulator there aren't any spikes.

If one wants to do the research, it's a 20 amp Diehl case generator.

The fuel pump is electric as well, but it's a tiny pull on the charge.

If anything toasted the battery externally, it would have been the battery charger I used to re-juice it.

Dunno. Chalk it up to the risks inherent in Experimental aircraft. They don't call it flight testing for nothing.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#4379091 - 09/12/17 06:02 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Every Human is Unique
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Charging systems can be qualified by the type of magnet used to excite the electrons and the type of voltage produced. Ignition systems are similar in that they either need voltage present to fire or they can work from the electrons produced by the system. Modern batteries are not your fathers battery and care must be taken when charging.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. It's been 30 years since my last class work and the more I type, the more I realize I have forgotten.

Both an alternator and generator use copper winding to create a magnetic field, while a magneto uses rare earth, perminate magnets. The method used to ground the excited coils determines if the output is AC or DC. If your AC output is twice the required DC voltage, simple items like incandescent bulbs will function as AC or DC. A regulator or zenior diode ensures that the system does not exceed a given voltage. Both bleed excessive voltage to ground. A rectifier converts AC to DC. A rectifier is either single phase or three phase. AC voltage is a negative and positive sine wave. A single phase rectifier throws away the negative side of the AC output. A three phase rectifier converts the negative side of the AC output to a positive DC,

There are two types of ignition coils. The first requires power to a produce a spark. These are know as battery/coil ignition or TCI (when we replaced points with an electronic box). Examples are Honda CT 70 and Yamaha XS1100. The second type can produce a spark form the voltage provided by the spinning of the crankshaft. This version is always a rare earth flywheel. It may be points or CDI ignition. Example is your lawn mower an most off road motorbikes that do not have lights or electric start. wink and 100% they are not fuel injected.

There are three types of "motorcycle" (not Ion) battery. And since this is more important for educational purposes, I will use a new paragraph for each.

Let me precede by saying that all batteries will go bad if you let them sit with zero charge and most will start to sulfate once they drop below 50 percent charge. A typical lead/acid battery will loose 1 percent of charge per day and start to sulfate once the charge is below 50 percent. Storing near a concrete floor has more humidity, so the charge is drained faster. Plus, the concrete displaces heat. A fully charged battery (12.8V) will not freeze at 30F. Freezing can warp the plates, resulting in a short.

The first is the old school, wet, lead acid battery. These are the ones that leak fumes, do not like to be inverted, corrode your frame, and require that you add distilled water to them when they are low. This is your fathers battery. It will last as long as you keep fluid in it, do not seriously over heat it, and keep a charge in it. It is the most forgiving for over charging.

After those, we had sealed batteries. These work the same as the old wet batteries. But, they use a stronger acid and they use fumes, not fluid, between cells. It is critical that you do not over charge these batteries. Use a tender, or float charger, and not a trickle charger. If your charging makes the gasses too hot, then the pressure release will result in lost gasses. This is the same as low fluid in the wet type battery, but here you can not replace what you lost.. A general rule of thumb for charging is half the amp hour rating of the battery for the same amps charging. If the battery is warm, stop charging. This type of battery is better then your fathers battery, especially if you are worried about fumes/liquids corroding your equipment.

The latest fluid type of battery is a "Gel" battery. The fluid within is a jelly. This makes it less prone to over charging problems and less prone to shock damaging the plates. You can still over heat this type of battery, but is is much more difficult. It is more resistant to freezing. The down side is the cost.

wink sorry I was rivet counting.


TPA who TWI
#4379092 - 09/12/17 06:07 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Brit44 'Aldo' Offline
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Dart,
Reading the post you made while I was typing, I would suspect that you over charged the battery. I will rescind that assumption if your assure me that you used a float charger (battery tender) and not a standard charger. An old school, trickle charger is NOT a float charger.


TPA who TWI
#4379721 - 09/15/17 06:26 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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Alabaster, AL USA
This is my charger:

https://carkart.com/index.php?route...o7cOm1gIVwV6GCh2bhwGwEAQYBCABEgKNSvD_BwE

One of the thing we were talking about at the hangar today is the crappy power supply to the hangars. Running my little corded drill dimmed the fluorescents every time I pulled the trigger. I suspect there was a power spike or drain as I was charging the battery. I guess I'm going to have to bring out an uninterruptible power supply box and run the charger through that to keep the power levels steady.

There's a lot I like about my airport, but there's a bunch of things that piss me off. NASCAR operates the airport, and the board has not one pilot on it. The airport manager is not a pilot. They seem to resent the fact that part of the deal for putting the racetrack on the WWII airfield was that they had to build and maintain a new one for the County, and do the bare minimums.

Large sections of grass between the runways and the hangar area haven't been cut all Summer. The power in the hangars is jury rigged through the security lights. Our automated weather station hasn't provided wind information since March. The manager says it will cost 125K to have repaired, and isn't covered by Federal subsidies, so they aren't going to spend the money until the FAA starts threatening to fine them. Some of the hangars leak, and unless one puts in writing a complaint, along with a reminder that any damage to the aircraft or contents within due to watewill be their liability, nothing gets repaired.

Once my 40 hour testing is done, I'm moving ten miles to Pell City. It's about the same price and the management and board is made up of pilots who give a damn about the place.

Went out today and replaced the battery and mounted the gun. Hopefully weather and my little Babette will cooperate and I can go around the patch.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
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#4379789 - 09/15/17 08:50 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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oldgrognard Online content
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PM sent.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4379848 - 09/16/17 04:27 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Dart,
Your description of when the battery failed is a bit odd. It does sound like a shorted cell.
The description of the charger does not mention float or tender. I suspect it is an old school, variable amp charger. These are fine for larger and/or old school "maintenance" free batteries. Can I trouble you to give the letter code of the battery that failed? Something like 12n14a2l, cb7a-l, yt14a, etc..

I was a big fan of NASCAR for 16 years starting with the year before R Petty retired.. I had tickets to MIS each August . Eventually ended up with row 2, seat 1-4 behind the flag stand. smile I have a signed stub from a legendary flagman. The only year I missed (lost tickets but later found and framed) was the only year a Pontiac won. NASCAR has turned "stock car" racing into a parade. NASCAR sux and they are trying to do the same to motocross.

They are doing a lot of work on this side of the field for PTK, but as I say since they built there sound wall "I grew up next to an airport. I live next to a prison wall".


TPA who TWI
#4379900 - 09/16/17 05:35 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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Well, the "one more thing" monster raised it's ugly head, but at least I solved why the last battery damned near melted.

The Diehl alternator is pumping pure juice to it. I was on taxi to the end of the runway and the voltmeter jumped with RPM's, going up to 16 volts before I backed off the throttle. If I'd of gunned it, the needle would have pegged for sure.

Back to the hangar. No flight. This is why one never invites spectators to initial test flights, or for the first few of them. It's a 50/50 chance they won't get to see anything but a lot of fussing.

A little troubleshooting later, and everything is grounded okay, with no change from what it was before. Disconnect the voltage regulator and it's a flat 12 volts on the battery. Run the engine and it's a flat 12v (as to be expected).*

Well, sh*t. So there's one of three things going on:

1) Voltage regulator is crap and needs to be replaced. Eighty bucks.

2) I need to run a ground directly from the Diehl case to the ground on the regulator. The instructions say "The regulator/rectifier unit must be properly grounded to the alternator. Simply placing the unit on standoffs located on the firewall may not be sufficient. A ground wire may be necessary." Apparently in putting things back together I wasn't holding my mouth right - mine is on a standoff to the firewall - and there's insufficient ground now. But it was okay before. Huh. Maybe two dollars.

3) There's a problem with the coils in the Diehl case. Highly unlikely, as if there was it wouldn't be producing juice, and it's not something that moves around and I was very careful with it when it was off the engine. The darned thing is dead simple:

http://www.greatplainsas.com/scdiehl.html

I called it a day, though, as I needed a decent Internet connection to do the research....plus I've found that when I attempt to repair a problem immediately after finding it, sometimes it turns into a fix that will require a larger repair later.

* My ground crew joked that I should just fly the plane the ten minutes around the pattern on just the battery. I guess I got bug eyed at the notion, as it brought big laughs. Flying an aircraft with the ignition on a total loss electrical system? I'm pretty cavalier, but damn.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#4379917 - 09/16/17 09:19 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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oldgrognard Online content
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I had to fly my Cardinal on a total loss situation back from Fernandina Beach to Brooksville. I made sure I had a good charge before I started out. Called ahead to my home field and told them about it so they were ready if I arrived without radio and had to use light signals. Had enough amps to start, so I didn't have to hand-prop it. Turned off all instruments except for transponder, primary radio and one GPS (Garmin 430 WAAS) which is also my primary radio and nav. Had my route planned so that if I lost power and the radio and transponder that I wasn't in controlled airspace. Then off I went . Uneventful. Arrived an hour and a half later with enough juice that I still had everything and made normal communication with tower for approach and landing. Good experience. Turned out it was a failed voltage regulator that took the alternator with it.

But I have dual magnetos and knew once the engine was running it would continue to do so even if I lost all battery power. You don't have that same situation. You lose electrical and you lose engine. Yeah, I would look at that a bit bugeyed too.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Someday your life will flash in front of your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
#4379943 - 09/17/17 04:14 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Brit44 'Aldo' Offline
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It is very old school (60's Lucus and British) and analog, but you could place a zenior diode in the hot wire for the charging system to battery. It would be a fail safe for the situation you have encountered. Do not forget that the diode needs cooling fins if it is passing current to ground. That flower below the headlight of a 70's Triumph bike is the bit that keeps the battery from cooking.


TPA who TWI
#4379945 - 09/17/17 04:21 AM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Brit44 'Aldo' Offline
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Quote
it would continue to do so even if I lost all battery power

True, but if you do something stupid that stops the prop from spinning, you are just as screwed. (apologies, counting rivets.)


TPA who TWI
#4380523 - 09/20/17 10:02 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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Installed the extra ground wire from the alternator case to the ground of the regulator, and SHAZAM! problem solved.

Back to waiting on weather....


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#4380534 - 09/20/17 11:24 PM Re: 7/8 scale Nieuport 11. [Re: Dart]  
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Living with the Trees
Go Dart...Go....when it's safe.


"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past."
Patrick Henry 1775

I personally believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and that deficit spending is sustainable forever. We really do need more Admirals in the Navy than ships and that millions of more poor immigrants will jump start the economy.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

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