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#4378136 - 09/06/17 06:25 PM DCS: Garmin GPS  
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bkthunder Offline
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Garmin GPS for DCS world


Well, I think it's a bargain. I mean, the real one, a second hand unit maybe, costs at least 500$, and here we can get it for 15$.
Thank you ED.

I'm looking forward do DCS: Professional Sports Chronometer (certified for GA aviation use) and DCS: Handheld backup VHF radio, as well!

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4378141 - 09/06/17 06:40 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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So will it cost more for each new aircraft? I also have a feeling Garmin charged exorbitant fees and likely some other stipulations to make this a reality and contribute to the high price.

#4378143 - 09/06/17 06:52 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Nate Offline
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popcorn

This should be fun.

Nate

#4378148 - 09/06/17 07:11 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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leaf_on_the_wind Offline
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Jesus H tity f**king christ

Is it april the 1st aready ?



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4378153 - 09/06/17 07:31 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Exorcet Offline
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
So will it cost more for each new aircraft?


If it does, that would be a bit of a damper. There is no word on how other modules will interact with it yet.


Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Jesus H tity f**king christ

Is it april the 1st aready ?

Is it that bad? This isn't the most out of place add on for a flight sim.

#4378158 - 09/06/17 07:49 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Not something I'd be interested in but some aircraft (like the MI8) might become more accessible for some people.

I'd be fed up if I had to buy a separate gps module for each aircraft though...

#4378163 - 09/06/17 08:06 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Wow, just wow.

#4378184 - 09/06/17 10:07 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Nothing wrong with this, I think we should pay for individual gauges and modules that make up the entire aircraft. I'd pay several hundred £££/$$$s for a good vertical speed indicator in any airframe/helo as its always been one of my favourites.

Also, I don't agree with the 'no damage' settings either. I'd much prefer that ED enabled a direct debit from my bank and every time I crashed an aircraft I was charged £50-£100 for a replacement. After all, it's much cheaper than the real thing and I'd learn by my mistakes.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4378185 - 09/06/17 10:19 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I haven't clicked the link yet, so I don't know what's on the other side. But I'll say this much, the U-2 flies with a handheld Garmin unit literally rubberbanded to one of the canopy-mounted mirrors, so it's not as out of place as one might think. Also, I'm predominantly flying the F-5 in NTTR (DCS), and it is a royal pain in the ass to fly "raw data" out there without spilling out of the assigned airspace. The Navy F-5s have been updated with integrated GPS and moving map (EHSI) so, I really like the idea of having a GPS add-on.

#4378224 - 09/07/17 01:35 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Gobsmacked. Im done. DCS is coming off my machine right now.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4378226 - 09/07/17 01:36 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Nothing wrong with this, I think we should pay for individual gauges and modules that make up the entire aircraft. I'd pay several hundred £££/$$$s for a good vertical speed indicator in any airframe/helo as its always been one of my favourites.

Also, I don't agree with the 'no damage' settings either. I'd much prefer that ED enabled a direct debit from my bank and every time I crashed an aircraft I was charged £50-£100 for a replacement. After all, it's much cheaper than the real thing and I'd learn by my mistakes.


rofl


i7 6700K/// Z170X-UD3 /// GB GTX 1070G1 /// 16Gb@2800 /// SSD + 1Tb Barracuda x2 (DCS here) /// NOX Hummer M750 /// HOTAS WartHog /// DIY IR Clip+Opentrack+PS3 EYE 60-120fps /// Win10 pro 64

#4378227 - 09/07/17 02:17 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Paradaz]  
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Exorcet Offline
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Nothing wrong with this, I think we should pay for individual gauges and modules that make up the entire aircraft.


That's not comparable though. Even if it was the case that modules were being sold piece by piece, would it matter if the total price for the module came out to be the same? It's nice to see that they're willing to go back and add to older modules. Perhaps things like this will lead to multiple variants of existing module aircraft being represented.

Sure I can appreciate that it's not everyone's priority, but it's not an unreasonable product for DCS. Or at least it won't be unreasonable if you don't have to buy it 15+ times.

#4378239 - 09/07/17 03:31 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Exorcet]  
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Derp derp. Derp.


#4378251 - 09/07/17 05:04 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I'm surprised to see the short-sightedness on display here. I don't think this is a play toward making us pay for essential components of an aircraft module. I see this as both an acknowledgement and a solution to the problem of having maps and aircraft covering widely disparate eras. I recall much gnashing of teeth when it came time to navigate around Normandy in a modern aircraft when the map doesn't include VOR/TACAN or RSBN facilities. I also recall much gnashing of teeth when it came time to operate 1960s equipment like the HIP or F-5 in a modern airspace structure like NTTR. This solves both of those issues in a completely optional package, and is actually pretty graceful in its execution since retrofitting GPS into older airframes has been standard practice for many years.

I'm the first one to call #%&*$# on ED's shenanigans - Lord knows, they dislike me so much I can't even help other users on their forum without getting insta-banned - but i see nothing wrong with this module, provided it works like it should. Now, if I have to buy it again for every airframe in which I want to use it, THAT's a problem. And as much as I love the stealth release (yay, no months-long #%&*$# fest!), not having the pricing strategy and roadmap ready to go at release is a party foul. And as usual, anyone who points that out gets a verbal beat down from the "community manager"...but I digress.

#4378252 - 09/07/17 05:05 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Sorry folks, this is gay as Easter. Being that Easter is full of pastel eggs and little fuzzy bunnies...................

#4378253 - 09/07/17 05:14 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Can't wait for DCS: Fuel Tank. Can be used with any aircraft, backwards compatible. Aircraft modules are $50, fuel tank is $250. Can't fly your module without it!!!!

[Linked Image]

#4378259 - 09/07/17 06:15 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Come on, man. That's intellectually dishonest.

#4378268 - 09/07/17 08:38 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: LOF_Rugg]  
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Originally Posted by LOF_Rugg
Can't wait for DCS: Fuel Tank. Can be used with any aircraft, backwards compatible. Aircraft modules are $50, fuel tank is $250. Can't fly your module without it!!!!

[Linked Image]



Even the guys at ED are looking forward to this

[Linked Image]

#4378285 - 09/07/17 11:02 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I'm gobsmacked... they can't be serious, right? Is this ED's product or Belsimtek's?


- Ice
#4378329 - 09/07/17 01:44 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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If you think Matt Wagner doesn't have final say in what's being sold think again. This went across his desk and was rubber stamped by him.

#4378373 - 09/07/17 05:26 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Look on the bright side......this module will only take 6 and a half years to fix when 2.5 breaks it on its release in 10 years time.

I'd rather trap my knob in the armoury door than accept payware piece-meal modules. ED can ram it.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4378386 - 09/07/17 06:13 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I've no problem with such addons. There is no sensible requirement that products offered appeal to me by content or price. What I fear is that patch content is conflated with new product content such that patch content is sidelined or conflated with additional product like the patch for Black Shark which was mixed with a little new content to confuse the issue and resold as Black Shark 2.

#4378432 - 09/07/17 09:31 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Maybe they did some work for a military contract and it's some kind of byproduct?

Jens


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#4378444 - 09/07/17 09:53 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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What do you use this product for in game? I know its GPS but what is their intent with the aircraft? Is it just fluff?

#4378451 - 09/07/17 10:41 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: DBcoop7]  
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Originally Posted by DBcoop7
What do you use this product for in game? I know its GPS but what is their intent with the aircraft? Is it just fluff?

Its an excuse. Its so they can say "we havent fixed X because we were developing this #%&*$#" Its not like they dont have many other things on their to do list that have been paid for already. "Nah were not going to fix this yet because our sales have shown that that product had reached its sales peak a long time ago. So we'll develop a freakin GPS see how that sells, if it doesnt sell well we'll charge them for the use of the F10 map."


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4378452 - 09/07/17 10:51 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Why work on 'high priorities' like the 2.5 merger because that will be released and not directly generate any funds..........they're more interested in getting payware modules out and are really going to town on campaigns because they are easy money-spinners.

However, ED will need to revisit these after 2.5 is released because they will all be broken and will need patching. The more content and campaigns released before 2.5 arrives means more to re-test, and more to fix.....but ED won't be taking that into account because they don't appreciate nor plan with any logic.....hence why this is a false economy.

DCS has been a massive mess since 2010 after Black Shark morphed into the idea of a 'World' with integrated modules (comical)......they're not suddenly going to change now, but more people are starting to realise their incompetence in everything they do, and every turn they take.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4378457 - 09/07/17 11:12 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I can't hardly wait for DCS: Left Wing for fixed wing aircraft as long as I don't have to pay for each DCS aircraft rolleyes

And after this I'll obviously and eagerly wait for the their next module, DCS: Right Wing for fixed aircraft... rolleyes

#4378476 - 09/08/17 01:37 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Way over in Perth, Western Aus...
I can't believe they are serious


mdwa
#4378485 - 09/08/17 03:19 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted by ricnunes
I can't hardly wait for DCS: Left Wing for fixed wing aircraft as long as I don't have to play for each DCS aircraft rolleyes

And after this I'll obviously and eagerly wait for the their next module, DCS: Right Wing for fixed aircraft... rolleyes


As long as you just want to turn right, you're golden.

#4378498 - 09/08/17 07:10 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: EjectEject]  
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Originally Posted by EjectEject
Originally Posted by ricnunes
I can't hardly wait for DCS: Left Wing for fixed wing aircraft as long as I don't have to play for each DCS aircraft rolleyes

And after this I'll obviously and eagerly wait for the their next module, DCS: Right Wing for fixed aircraft... rolleyes


As long as you just want to turn right, you're golden.



Although you might have a fighting chance of flying level if you buy the DCS: Ailleron module, I'm only interested in the 'DCS: Rivets and Bolts' to ensure my chosen airframes don't fall apart on take-off.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4378522 - 09/08/17 02:28 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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they simply offer better option than "F10 F1 F10 F1 stupid cycle" and "spamming MARK in kneeboard" in legacy planes (such as F5) with hopefully, waypoint functionality.

15 for each planes is meh though.



but tbh I wanted to see working JTIDS in eagle instead of putting garmin in it.

#4378525 - 09/08/17 03:11 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I'm looking forward to the day they'll charge you for Garmin map updates!

#4378572 - 09/08/17 08:59 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I can't wait to see the "but this product did not interfere with 2.5 release!" responses... they seem to be a bit slow with this thread....


- Ice
#4378575 - 09/08/17 09:26 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Truthfully, I was done giving them money. Then I talked myself into NTTR. This is the line in the sand. I'm done and over it.


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#4378649 - 09/09/17 08:21 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Noodle]  
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Originally Posted by Noodle
I haven't clicked the link yet, so I don't know what's on the other side. But I'll say this much, the U-2 flies with a handheld Garmin unit literally rubberbanded to one of the canopy-mounted mirrors, so it's not as out of place as one might think. Also, I'm predominantly flying the F-5 in NTTR (DCS), and it is a royal pain in the ass to fly "raw data" out there without spilling out of the assigned airspace. The Navy F-5s have been updated with integrated GPS and moving map (EHSI) so, I really like the idea of having a GPS add-on.


Noodle, I totally agree with you that this GPS is a very good addition, realistic and useful etc. In fact I was looking forward to it.
However, the reason why many people have concerns has nothing to do with the actual GPS itself, but rather with the business model.

Take FSX for example:
- it's a GA sim
- for ~$50 (upon release) you got a bunch of medium fidelity aircraft
- The whole world, covered in very acceptable (for the time) detail
- Nav aids, ATC, AI traffic, radios, a full simulation of a garmin GPS + glass cockpit
- Dynamic weather

In other words, even without any addons, you have a GA sim with all the tools you need to actually perform a pretty realistic VFR or IFR flight.
It does what it says on the box.

Now take DCS with FC3 addon (this should put it roughly on par with the FSX example):

- it claims to be a combat simulator
- you get the sim for free, but let's say you have to at least buy FC3 to have a bunch of medium fidelity aircraft
- A theater of operations, covered in acceptable detail
- Low-fidelity weapons (A-A missiles, bombs and rockets with no blast radius damage etc)
- No ATC, extremely basic (useless) AI / wingmen / awacs
- No campaigns
- Dynamic weather

So, DCS clearly lacks some of the fundamental parts that constitute a combat flight simulator, and yet we have to pay for extra stuff (or fluff). Makes you think, if they ever make proper A-A missiles, how much are they gonna charge?

"How much is the bean soup?"
"It's $40 sir, and I highly recommend it, it's our specialty"
"Sounds good! I'll have the bean soup then."
"Sure sir, here's your plate with the hot water, already salted, and 2 chickpeas! Oh, by the way, you get the spoon for free! if you want we also have one slice of garlic bread for $14.99"
"I sure like garlic bread, but I don't see any beans in my bean soup!"
"Don't worry sir, the beans are cooking. Would you like to add some pepper to the soup in the meantime? That's only $14.99 if you add it now!"

#4378651 - 09/09/17 08:25 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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P.S.

[Linked Image]

#4378656 - 09/09/17 10:01 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I don't think you have to explain this to Noodle, bkthunder smile All he's saying is that the Garmin module is useful and that it's used IRL in non-GPS equipped aircraft.

The "bigger picture" of this module being released now in the current ED situation is another matter altogether. biggrin


- Ice
#4378682 - 09/09/17 02:41 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Originally Posted by bkthunder

Noodle, I totally agree with you that this GPS is a very good addition, realistic and useful etc. In fact I was looking forward to it.
However, the reason why many people have concerns has nothing to do with the actual GPS itself, but rather with the business model.

Take FSX for example:
- it's a GA sim
- for ~$50 (upon release) you got a bunch of medium fidelity aircraft
- The whole world, covered in very acceptable (for the time) detail
- Nav aids, ATC, AI traffic, radios, a full simulation of a garmin GPS + glass cockpit
- Dynamic weather

In other words, even without any addons, you have a GA sim with all the tools you need to actually perform a pretty realistic VFR or IFR flight.
It does what it says on the box.

Now take DCS with FC3 addon (this should put it roughly on par with the FSX example):

- it claims to be a combat simulator
- you get the sim for free, but let's say you have to at least buy FC3 to have a bunch of medium fidelity aircraft
- A theater of operations, covered in acceptable detail
- Low-fidelity weapons (A-A missiles, bombs and rockets with no blast radius damage etc)
- No ATC, extremely basic (useless) AI / wingmen / awacs
- No campaigns
- Dynamic weather

So, DCS clearly lacks some of the fundamental parts that constitute a combat flight simulator, and yet we have to pay for extra stuff (or fluff). Makes you think, if they ever make proper A-A missiles, how much are they gonna charge?


I agree with pretty much everything you said except for the "no campaigns" part in FC3 and also in the "free DCS World" (with the Su-25T).
- FC3 basically brings a campaign for each aircraft (F-15C, A-10A, Mig-29S, Su-25 and Su-27) and two campaigns for the Su-33.
- "Free DCS World" brings one campaign for the Su-25T.

But again, I agree with the rest of what you said.

#4378689 - 09/09/17 03:05 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Exorcet Offline
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Originally Posted by bkthunder
Now take DCS with FC3 addon (this should put it roughly on par with the FSX example):

- it claims to be a combat simulator
- you get the sim for free, but let's say you have to at least buy FC3 to have a bunch of medium fidelity aircraft
- A theater of operations, covered in acceptable detail
- Low-fidelity weapons (A-A missiles, bombs and rockets with no blast radius damage etc)
- No ATC, extremely basic (useless) AI / wingmen / awacs
- No campaigns
- Dynamic weather

So, DCS clearly lacks some of the fundamental parts that constitute a combat flight simulator, and yet we have to pay for extra stuff (or fluff). Makes you think, if they ever make proper A-A missiles, how much are they gonna charge?

This is fair critique of DCS, the combat side is pretty shallow and as a mission builder I run into the issue all the time. I'd agree with the statement that DCS isn't truly a combat simulator, but I still think the product offers what is claimed. The issue is there is no strict definition for a combat simulator. DCS offers combat, it's just bad at it. Not something to cheer at obviously, but it doesn't fall into the category of deceptive marketing.

As far as the business model, the reason why there are people failing to understand the negativity toward the GPS (or at least why I'm having a hard time understanding it) is because it doesn't hint at the sim being divided into minute parts that are going to be sold for extraordinary prices. The only real point of concern for me is if you need to buy it multiple times. That would be a very bad deal and not really make much sense. Were that to happen I would understand your viewpoint a little more. As a one time purchase, it falls in line with other products. Take FC3 standalone to represent the price of PFM (~$15), the GPS add on is $15. Together that's $30, which is less than the cost of some ,modules. Throw in another $25 or so for ASM (this "price" would probably vary a bit depending on the module complexity) and then you have something around the cost of a full module.

Let's also not forget all the good deals that ED provided. 2.5 is free but originally required a map purchase to take full advantage of. ED changed this with the updated default map. AFM missiles were provided free, though ED didn't take the guidance side of this into account which really hurt this effort. The alpha branch has introduced AI improvements for free and ATC is planned, although info is TBA. I suppose you could take this as a sign that ED's is changing their product strategy, but it also doesn't look much different from a regular product arrival.

Quote

"How much is the bean soup?"
"It's $40 sir, and I highly recommend it, it's our specialty"
"Sounds good! I'll have the bean soup then."
"Sure sir, here's your plate with the hot water, already salted, and 2 chickpeas! Oh, by the way, you get the spoon for free! if you want we also have one slice of garlic bread for $14.99"
"I sure like garlic bread, but I don't see any beans in my bean soup!"
"Don't worry sir, the beans are cooking. Would you like to add some pepper to the soup in the meantime? That's only $14.99 if you add it now!"

The caveat I'd add here is that the server informed you that if you ordered now it wouldn't be ready.

#4378730 - 09/09/17 06:24 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Exorcet]  
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Well, the server intially told you the meal would be ready in 10 minutes.... however, this happened about an hour ago. biggrin
When you ask the server now when your bean soup would be ready, he just shrugs his shoulders and says "due to hostile customer responses, we no longer give estimates on how long it will take before their food is ready."


Originally Posted by Exorcet
DCS offers combat, it's just bad at it. Not something to cheer at obviously, but it doesn't fall into the category of deceptive marketing.

Indeed, just as Ace Combat and HAWX are also combat flight simulators!


Originally Posted by Exorcet
Take FC3 standalone to represent the price of PFM (~$15), the GPS add on is $15. Together that's $30, which is less than the cost of some ,modules. Throw in another $25 or so for ASM (this "price" would probably vary a bit depending on the module complexity) and then you have something around the cost of a full module.

Not sure what you're getting at here... but at this point, we're not even sure if the GPS will work with other aircraft yet, just the Mi-8.


Originally Posted by Exorcet
Let's also not forget all the good deals that ED provided. 2.5 is free but originally required a map purchase to take full advantage of. ED changed this with the updated default map. AFM missiles were provided free, though ED didn't take the guidance side of this into account which really hurt this effort. The alpha branch has introduced AI improvements for free and ATC is planned, although info is TBA. I suppose you could take this as a sign that ED's is changing their product strategy, but it also doesn't look much different from a regular product arrival.

2.5 = irrelevant as it's not out yet
AFM = missiles still broken though
AI improvements = so.... fixing broken stuff means we should be grateful to the devs now?
ATC = irrelevant as it's not out yet

Again, I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. ED fixing things is not a "good deal," every software and game company worth the time of day does this. It is expected of them.

If they were to release DCS: Su-33 along the same fidelity as DCS A10C and make this new module free to all the own the Su-33 standalone or FC3, then **THAT** is a good deal!


- Ice
#4378767 - 09/09/17 09:36 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Hahahaha, i loved it. DCS fanboys deserve this, simply as that!

They supported this kind of business and now it is backfiring at them. Honestly i hope it gets even worst, because only then maybe, maybe the will open their eyes and stand for the own interest.


I LOVED IT!!!!!!


PS: Obviously i jumped off the boat a long time ago, uninstalled everything from ED and never looked back. My memories are full or boring combat experience and unfinished product AF.

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 09/09/17 09:48 PM.
#4378810 - 09/10/17 05:23 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Yeah, as I mentioned to the folks in my squad, I have a hair trigger when it comes to ED's fukkery. I despise Wags and his merry band of misfit "moderators" and "community manager" and I genuinely, in all seriousness, believe they should be fired for gross incompetence; and I don't say that lightly.

But as critical as I am, I don't throw shade just for the sake of throwing shade. I don't think the addition of a standalone GPS signals a broader attempt to monetize crucial aspects of the sim in some "pay to win" scheme. I do share the concern that one might need to purchase the GPS multiple times for multiple modules, but even in the absence of an official position there is still evidence to the contrary (see L-39 functionality). Besides, in this particular case I'd only ever use it in one module anyway, so for me its a moot point.

Now, if they start trying to sell separate modules for core simulator functions like AMRAAM performance, ECM, or JDAM flight modeling, I'll pick up my pitchfork and light a torch. Believe me. But it's not like they held back some crucial feature just so they could sell it to you later. A GPS retrofit is an obvious and logical add-on that increases the usability of aircraft modeled from other eras...exactly like you'd find in most warbirds at your local airshow. It makes those spewing DCS:Aileron jokes appear terribly ignorant.

Anyway, I've been an MSFS developer for 30 years - since FS4 - so maybe I'm just conditioned to appreciate a robust 3rd party ecosystem and a thriving add-on market. That's why I wish ED would cut the #%&*$# and release an SDK so the community could rally around the platform. Alas, we're stuck throwing spears at a handful of 3rd parties for not giving us what we want. There's so much I'd love to create, but ED intentionally stifles innovation. It blows my mind.

All of that is to say, there are SO MANY reasons to be upset with ED, but an aftermarket GPS from BST just isn't one of them. In my humble opinion.


#4378820 - 09/10/17 10:39 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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You are right IF ED released an SDK there would be a lot more going on mod wise

Look at BIS and Arma3 on how doing that can make a huge difference to game modding ..... for the better

But do you want to know why ED will NEVER do this? They would loose control on what is produced (read not be able to charge for it)



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4378835 - 09/10/17 02:58 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Well, the server intially told you the meal would be ready in 10 minutes.... however, this happened about an hour ago. biggrin
When you ask the server now when your bean soup would be ready, he just shrugs his shoulders and says "due to hostile customer responses, we no longer give estimates on how long it will take before their food is ready."

True as well.



Quote

Indeed, just as Ace Combat and HAWX are also combat flight simulators!

Without a strict definition of what a combat simulator is you can squeeze almost anything in I guess. DCS is very different from those two titles though. I'm not extremely familiar with HAWX except a few short minutes of gameplay that I saw that made it look like a UFO simulator, but Ace Combat has nothing approaching realistic sensors or weapon restrictions. Wingmen are even less existent, and the situations that the game pits you in don't even try to resemble reality (always have to have at least one enemy the size of Alaska subcontracted by the same group that put exhaust ports on the Deathstar). DCS with humans replacing the AI, as can be done in MP, can provide a fairly good combat experience. Scripting can also help in the single player bit. Ace Combat still won't look realistic even with people trying to act in a realistic way. I think that DCS is clearly in a different category despite its short comings.


Quote

Not sure what you're getting at here... but at this point, we're not even sure if the GPS will work with other aircraft yet, just the Mi-8.

Yeah it was a loose point. Basically just try to point out that it's not much of a money grab. The scope of modules that GPS will work on is a concern, but despite being labeled as Mi-8 only, it has an option to work with the L-39. So ED might be leaning toward making it multi-module compatible. If this ends up being not the case, then I'll be a lot less excited and will probably not buy the GPS ever.


Quote

2.5 = irrelevant as it's not out yet
AFM = missiles still broken though
AI improvements = so.... fixing broken stuff means we should be grateful to the devs now?
ATC = irrelevant as it's not out yet

Again, I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. ED fixing things is not a "good deal," every software and game company worth the time of day does this. It is expected of them.

This part was a response to the idea that ED might charge for missile fixes, etc. It's expected that they fix what's broken for free, and for a lot of cases that is what they've planned to do or have done. For things not released this can change, but the GPS module isn't a fix, so I don't see why people would jump to conclude that ED will charge for fixes based on the release of this module.

#4378873 - 09/10/17 07:21 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Exorcet]  
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Originally Posted by Exorcet
Originally Posted by - Ice
Well, the server intially told you the meal would be ready in 10 minutes.... however, this happened about an hour ago. biggrin
When you ask the server now when your bean soup would be ready, he just shrugs his shoulders and says "due to hostile customer responses, we no longer give estimates on how long it will take before their food is ready."

True as well.

And hence the discontent. I hope this shows you the scope of dissatisfaction regarding ED's practices... we were talking about this on the other thread. True, there are a dozen or so very vocal members, but stick around long enough and read enough posts and you'll see others expressing their minds along the same lines.


Originally Posted by Exorcet
Without a strict definition of what a combat simulator is you can squeeze almost anything in I guess. DCS is very different from those two titles though....... I think that DCS is clearly in a different category despite its short comings.

Like you said, without a strict definition of combat flight simulator nearly anything goes... especially if you try to squeeze in DCS in that definition, then Ace Combat and HAWX and everything in between can be called such.


Originally Posted by Exorcet
Yeah it was a loose point. Basically just try to point out that it's not much of a money grab. The scope of modules that GPS will work on is a concern, but despite being labeled as Mi-8 only, it has an option to work with the L-39. So ED might be leaning toward making it multi-module compatible. If this ends up being not the case, then I'll be a lot less excited and will probably not buy the GPS ever.

True, the GPS module by itself is much more useful than making trains or selling Su-33 as stand-alone. However, once you step back and appreciate it on the bigger picture, the same questions start coming up.... most of it can be moot if this was done by Belsimtek, but if ED was the one that made this module, then we go back to the same issues regarding resources, ED being desperate for money, etc. etc.


Originally Posted by Exorcet
This part was a response to the idea that ED might charge for missile fixes, etc.

The "charging for missiles" bit is just a poke at ED chopping up everything to bits now and selling them individually. Not realistic, just as my suggestion of selling landing gear separately, but the exaggeration is there to prove a point.


Originally Posted by Exorcet
It's expected that they fix what's broken for free, and for a lot of cases that is what they've planned to do or have done.

For very minor things. Other stuff is still broken and has been so for years.


Originally Posted by Exorcet
For things not released this can change, but the GPS module isn't a fix, so I don't see why people would jump to conclude that ED will charge for fixes based on the release of this module.

No, it isn't a fix.... but it's another one of those things that can be and will most likely be broken after a patch and another one of those things that they'll need to adapt into 2.5.


- Ice
#4378901 - 09/11/17 12:03 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I like the idea of a gauge, if they're selling it for individual modules I disagree with that.

DCS is full of people who don't actually know how to use this gauge or other IFR equipment.

There ARE however some people who take IFR flight seriously and if you're into helicopters and live ATC, this GPS in combination with a helicopter presents the best helicopter flight simulation experience available right now. P3D helicopters are mostly junk.

If they make this gauge work with navigraph data it will be a decent addition to the sim.

I may pick this up and use it on pilotedge in the Huey and Mi8.

For those who don't understand what this GPS is for, it is primarily for people who are using their sims to simulate the non-combat aspects of flight, which are actually the most important to general airmanship..! These days you can link up DCS with PilotEDGE's ATC network and get live ATC coverage. Having a GPS with accurate waypoints would allow a lot of additional realism and good practice dealing with ATC under challenging weather conditions and terrain. The caveat is the GPS MUST include some kind of function to use navigraph data to load the most recent AIRAC cycle. If it cannot do this it is useless.

The Mi8 already has some fantastic navigation systems like the doppler navigation system, but that is old technology and it does not work well with precision RNAV approaches. Most people are not good enough at using it and it takes time to set up each new waypoint, a problem when you need to time your turns to the second in order to be at the right waypoint/fix at the right moment in time. The GPS will eliminate that problem and free people from having to do only VOR / NDB approaches.

#4378924 - 09/11/17 07:29 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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lol, I guess everyone has its own taste

First of all, IMO flight experience is not made only by flight model but by the overall experience made by good scenery, complex weather, realistic aircraft (model, system, mechanics, feeling both on the ground and in the sky), realistic failures due to bad use, realistic ATC, realistic traffic (aircrafts and ground handling) and others.

With that premise, trying to fit/push DCS in the same category as typical flight simulators just make this product even weirder. By itself it is just a very bad combat simulator. Forcing this up just make it a bad combat sim with the worst traditional/civilian flight simulation in the market.
I get that some people are so in love with ED/DCS that for them it fits everything (you can see that by those who keep suggesting DCS when people ask whether they should buy XP or P3D, it really happens on /r/flightsim) but c'mon IMO you are just fooling yourself.

Both GPS module + DCS and pilotedge + DCS are a waste. If it is free or already included then ok but spending money on a module that adds a GPS for 15$, which is pretty high for a single gauge, for a extremely limited navigation experience is really pointless.

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 09/11/17 11:19 AM.
#4378940 - 09/11/17 10:55 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: xXNightEagleXx]  
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+1 to what he said

I love using the doppler Nav on the mi-8, its old skool but reasonably functional



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4378942 - 09/11/17 11:34 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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What I'm curious about is why this on DCS? Can you not do what Longbow said in FSX/P3D/XP11? Are they not a better platform on which you can practice things like airmanship, ATC, instrument approaches, etc? XP11 and P3D is $60 each, but comes with a much bigger area to fly in and I'm sure lots more aircraft and helicopters to choose from... also, don't some aircraft come with GPS/Garmin already built in? I know it was for some aircraft in FSX.


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#4378954 - 09/11/17 12:55 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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DCS is the best helicopter simulator that exists in the consumer market. there is nothing that comes even remotely close.

so for helicopter flying, this makes perfect sense.

IFR helicopter flying has been heavily neglected in the sim world. this is kind of exciting for me to see because DCS is now the only high fidelity helicopter simulator in which we can fly a real RNAV approach in challenging terrain - the altitude and mountains make NTTS challenging enough for a helo pilot, with a simulated sandstorm or a pitch black night into a small airfield, it is going to be a lot of fun.

for fixed aircraft p3d / fsx are fine but for military DCS is a lot better in most respects. for rotary aviation, no other sim is worth considering. DCS wins for rotary aviation.

someone said pilotedge is a waste of money, well that may be your opinion, but some of us don't believe that air quake is a good thing and this and the pilotedge connectivity is the first step DCS has taken toward improving navigation and realistic flight ops which has been a very weak point since its creation. no other military simulator i know of, including falcon bms, has ATC remotely resembling the realism you get on something like pilotedge. the gps is directly related to the ability to comply with modern ATC traffic control. VOR approaches are still in use in some places, but if you want to be able to fit into the average traffic flow at a big airport you're going to need to be able to fly an RNAV approach.

some of you might want to try it. you will likely be chewed out by controllers if you don't know how to do procedures properly or if you use radio terminology that is not in line with FAA/US military standards. How many people here even know how to work their transponder and its different modes? This addon is a great chance to improve your real airmanship, but again only if the navdata can be updated regularly using navigraph.

#4378959 - 09/11/17 01:14 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
DCS is the best helicopter simulator that exists in the consumer market. there is nothing that comes even remotely close.
for fixed aircraft p3d / fsx are fine but for military DCS is a lot better in most respects. for rotary aviation, no other sim is worth considering. DCS wins for rotary aviation.

What do you mean exactly? Physics-wise? Have you included XP11 in this equation? What flying experience do you have to validate the "feel" for DCS helos? Honest questions here, Longbow; I'm really curious why you can make such a statement.


Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
IFR helicopter flying has been heavily neglected in the sim world

I thought DCS was a bit short on the IFR stuff? I could be wrong though...


Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
someone said pilotedge is a waste of money,

I've never heard of them before but the few videos I've just watched makes it quite interesting! Do you know if this can tie in with something like FSEconomy?


Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
some of you might want to try it. you will likely be chewed out by controllers if you don't know how to do procedures properly or if you use radio terminology that is not in line with FAA/US military standards. How many people here even know how to work their transponder and its different modes? This addon is a great chance to improve your real airmanship, but again only if the navdata can be updated regularly using navigraph.

At this point, we're talking more about PilotEdge than DCS smile


- Ice
#4378965 - 09/11/17 01:53 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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What an achievement for a military sim, a real controller. Who cares about real combat stuff, who cares for missile flight model, who cares for damage models, who cares for war environment that is unpredictable....no no pilotedge connection is the milestone....how lucky we are.....
I like pilotedge but in the list of the required stuff, it surely stays in the last position when it comes to military sim, even traffic comes way before.

BTW, let's cut this myth that DCS is the only one with no contest. DCS flight model is very good but not flawless even the praised and incredible HUEY. XP also offers a nice flight model, as matter of fact also this platform is used by helicopters real world pilot.......probably you are right.....they are so dumb to use this inferior platform and not hail the superior DCS platform.
A few days ago i came across this link about this guy who basically jumped from virtual to real helicopter and wanted to share its experience. What a dumb *** how can a guy ditch the vastly superior DCS over the vastly inferior XP?! Maybe because the flight model is not that different?! Maybe because when you add all aspects to the overall experience then DCS just falls among the last?!
This was just something that i wanted to share, at this point, but it easy to find video/article/post of real world pilots with years of experience that admire DCS flight model but never picks it as first simulator choice, I even know a few in real life. TBH, the thing is a bit complex because not everyone give the same 'weight' to each aspect of a flight simulator so for example i saw private pilots preferring P3D over X-Plane due to overall weather and scenary experience, even though they knew that the flight model was not that good.

To be fair, i know of some who would pick DCS every day but in their case is just because they love the HUEY so much and the only version that is done so well is the DCS one.

Update: you can swap pilotedge for navigation just to make this statement a litte more generalized
Update 2: just in case you didn't understand, the guy from the link started in DCS but then moved to XP 11

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 09/11/17 02:05 PM.
#4378967 - 09/11/17 02:08 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: xXNightEagleXx]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
What I'm curious about is why this on DCS? Can you not do what Longbow said in FSX/P3D/XP11?


I just have P3D, but when it comes to flight model, DCS is on another level, even with fixed wing aircraft. For alot of us, flightsims entusiasts, flight modeling is not a minor feature. P3D does alot of things much better than DCS, but piloting in DCS feels more real. And if you put combat environment on it, it becomes even better.
I usually agree with your critics about ED but if you can't compreend why in some aspects DCS is much preferred over other simulators, than your opinion starts to look alike the DCS forum minions, but for the darkside.



Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx

I get that some people are so in love with ED/DCS that for them it fits everything (you can see that by those who keep suggesting DCS when people ask whether they should buy XP or P3D, it really happens on /r/flightsim) but c'mon IMO you are just fooling yourself.

Both GPS module + DCS and pilotedge + DCS are a waste.


Do you even realise that between this two extreme opinions are thousands of players that are aware of DCS shortcomings but still can have fun with what DCS has to offer? there are alot of shades between fanboys and haters.

During last month me and a friend were doing very nice missions of MIG21 in Syria, using Nevada. I was the one who creates the missions, using of course DCS mission editor. This editor is very very powerful and we were having an amazing time flying it.
Of course there are many upsets regarding DCS: ATC is barely nonexistent and faulty; ordenance damage is sometimes way off; AI ground forces interaction is a joke, ground battles are mainly placeolders; in 2017 new DCS 3D engine isn't capable of dealing with antialiasing; our airbase (Creech) don't have medium and big planes slots (acording to SiThSpAwN this is "simply not realistic, as in not in the real world" LOL); because of stupidity of using models with milions of polys and 8K textures we can't have a decent populated world and the list goes on and on and unfortunately with every pach ir becomes worst.
But still we are having a very good time flying it. So acording to you we are just fooling ourself?

Amazing. Now you guys know how are we, other people than you, suposed to have fun.

If you know a better MIG-21 simulator that could give me the tools to recreate these missions, please enlight me.

About DCS: Garmin:
Will I buy it? No. It doesn't suit my needs for realistic combat flight simulator.
Can I understand the need for it? For some users, yes. FV9_Longbow described it very weel.
Do I disagree with this release? As long as isn't made by Ed and therefore don't becomes in the way of more relevant features and bug fixes, I'm ok with it.
To me, high detailed Nevada trains is doing much more damage to DCS for many reasons than this, 3d party navegation module.

#4378972 - 09/11/17 02:41 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: alexb]  
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Originally Posted by alexb
...


Lol, you quoted one part that you got completely wrong. The fool was related to those who keep insisting that DCS is the answer when the question is which one should i buy, XP or P3D, i thought that i was clear on the target of that sentence. Everyone is free to enjoy whatever they want, i simply don't care. I do care when people support market schemes poisoning the whole market. This does not apply only to DCS but to videogames in overall, indeed it goes beyond videogames. We are moving to a generation where there is a risk that a phone might cost like a high end PC and why? Because people simply buy those stuff no matter what. There are example of people driving the market to normal levels (eg. PS3 in japan) but unfortunately we are full of people being drove by the market.

I want to see combat simulators that really care about combat aspect instead of software which main goal is ' how to milk the community' and ignores all bugs/unfinished stuff of the core product. Sure the GPS is not ED fault, directly, but it seems that people already forgot the 'Asset Addon'....when you allow those stuff don't be surprised that others will follow you.

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 09/11/17 02:44 PM.
#4378997 - 09/11/17 04:50 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: alexb]  
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Originally Posted by alexb
I just have P3D, but when it comes to flight model, DCS is on another level, even with fixed wing aircraft. For alot of us, flightsims entusiasts, flight modeling is not a minor feature. P3D does alot of things much better than DCS, but piloting in DCS feels more real.

And again, I put the question to you... what flying experience do you have to validate this "feel"?


Originally Posted by alexb
I usually agree with your critics about ED but if you can't compreend why in some aspects DCS is much preferred over other simulators, than your opinion starts to look alike the DCS forum minions, but for the darkside.

I make no claims to the authenticity of any FM, DCS, BMS or otherwise, simply because I am not in a position to do so. That is why I am asking you and Longbow what background do you guys have regarding flying fixed- or rotary-wing aircraft.


Originally Posted by alexb
Do you even realise that between this two extreme opinions are thousands of players that are aware of DCS shortcomings but still can have fun with what DCS has to offer? there are alot of shades between fanboys and haters.

Some of us do not doubt the fun that DCS has to offer... just because it's fun doesn't mean it doesn't have its shortcomings. Just because it has its shortcomings doesn't mean it isn't fun. It's just that for some of us, we've outgrown the fun part and are still waiting for ED to catch up.


Originally Posted by alexb
But still we are having a very good time flying it. So acording to you we are just fooling ourself?

Different strokes for different folks. Personally, I couldn't fly a mission I've created. It's like writing, casting, and directing my own movie... I cannot then watch it with suspense and wonder.


Originally Posted by alexb
Do I disagree with this release? As long as isn't made by Ed and therefore don't becomes in the way of more relevant features and bug fixes, I'm ok with it.

ED will still have to deal with this module and all other modules and DLCs once 2.5 comes out....


- Ice
#4379045 - 09/11/17 09:40 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

And hence the discontent. I hope this shows you the scope of dissatisfaction regarding ED's practices... we were talking about this on the other thread. True, there are a dozen or so very vocal members, but stick around long enough and read enough posts and you'll see others expressing their minds along the same lines.

I've said before that I don't think ED is above criticism. I do feel like some things get overblown though, just my opinion.


Quote

Like you said, without a strict definition of combat flight simulator nearly anything goes... especially if you try to squeeze in DCS in that definition, then Ace Combat and HAWX and everything in between can be called such.

I can't really agree that HAWX and AC are in the same spot as DCS. DCS has the elements of a combat flight sim, but they only work on a basic level. The other titles don't even really make an effort at simulation. You could at least tweak DCS combat to turn into a decent simulation, and I think more modern aircraft fit the current sim better than older aircraft. Ace Combat and HAWX would need to be built from scratch to compete. Wingmen have been brought up in this thread. If you're flying the F-15, you can actually get use out of the pincer commands and the AI's SA. BVR and long range sensors give you time to issue commands and allow the AI see enough of the airspace to have some use (none of this applies to Ace Combat). In something like the F-5 it's a lot harder since everything is WVR. I've found that success is more dependent on the flight plan, I've started giving my own flight AI tasks and have half of the flight split off to follow the flight plan on their own while I fly with 1 wingman and support the more autonomous AI.


Quote

True, the GPS module by itself is much more useful than making trains or selling Su-33 as stand-alone. However, once you step back and appreciate it on the bigger picture, the same questions start coming up.... most of it can be moot if this was done by Belsimtek, but if ED was the one that made this module, then we go back to the same issues regarding resources, ED being desperate for money, etc. etc.

I guess I'm just more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in the absence of information. I don't know how ED is splitting work. 2.5 is also planned to have some big features to cover some of the short comings of the current sim, in this case it's not surprising if it's really going to take this long to get it out. On paper dropping everything and focusing on 2.5 sounds like the best path, but I'm unsure enough as an outsider that I can't insist that ED go that route.


Quote

The "charging for missiles" bit is just a poke at ED chopping up everything to bits now and selling them individually. Not realistic, just as my suggestion of selling landing gear separately, but the exaggeration is there to prove a point.

They still come of as being unrelated to the GPS module issue, except when it comes to diverting resources from something else.


Quote
[/quote]
For very minor things. Other stuff is still broken and has been so for years.

I wouldn't consider flight model fixes and CTD issues minor. But point taken that DCS has existing problems.


Quote

No, it isn't a fix.... but it's another one of those things that can be and will most likely be broken after a patch and another one of those things that they'll need to adapt into 2.5.

That's totally fair to point out. It's all the worry over having to buy modules piece by piece that I found confusing.

#4379053 - 09/11/17 11:20 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: xXNightEagleXx]  
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Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx

I want to see combat simulators that really care about combat aspect instead of software which main goal is ' how to milk the community' and ignores all bugs/unfinished stuff of the core product. Sure the GPS is not ED fault, directly, but it seems that people already forgot the 'Asset Addon'....when you allow those stuff don't be surprised that others will follow you.


Exactly, ED have already starting going down this route. Not only does their greed steer them in the direction of 'asset packs' we can do without everyone embracing 3rd parties that are testing the water with these additional modules too.

Just don't act surprised when you need to buy multiple components of an aircraft just to get airborne. We warned people of this years ago. It's allegedly a 'combat simulator'............let ED actually provide this before we get ourselves into a position whereby we need payware modules to reach the objective and then an asset pack to actually see enemy presence. ED have barely delivered anything like what their supposed 'vision' entails yet the customer base are continually giving them more rope to hang everyone with......just don't whinge when the key foundations of this sim are still not in place in 5 years time because it's more fruitful to them to knock out crap that creates funding than free patches which are dependent parts of the actual 'sim' and were promised years ago.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4379054 - 09/11/17 11:44 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Exorcet]  
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Originally Posted by Exorcet
I've said before that I don't think ED is above criticism. I do feel like some things get overblown though, just my opinion.

I was just referring to **these** lines in a previous thread....
Originally Posted by Exorcet
Rampant dissatisfaction? That I haven't seen, but if it existed it could be a problem.
There are a dozen(?) regulars in this section. That's not "rampant". Unless you have links handy to a bunch of sites maybe.



Originally Posted by Exorcet
Quote
Like you said, without a strict definition of combat flight simulator nearly anything goes... especially if you try to squeeze in DCS in that definition, then Ace Combat and HAWX and everything in between can be called such.

I can't really agree that HAWX and AC are in the same spot as DCS

Again, without a strict definition of combat flight simulator nearly anything goes...


Originally Posted by Exorcet
I guess I'm just more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in the absence of information. I don't know how ED is splitting work. 2.5 is also planned to have some big features to cover some of the short comings of the current sim, in this case it's not surprising if it's really going to take this long to get it out. On paper dropping everything and focusing on 2.5 sounds like the best path, but I'm unsure enough as an outsider that I can't insist that ED go that route.

You are giving them too much credit... even on things that can be surmised based on common sense and the idea of limited resources.

Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with "insisting that ED go that route." ED can take whatever route they want, and this is exactly what they are doing. All we're doing here is watching them, wondering what they're up to, and scratching our heads in confusion.
"On paper dropping everything and focusing on 2.5 sounds like the best path" indeed it is!! Do you know of a better path?


Originally Posted by Exorcet
They still come of as being unrelated to the GPS module issue, except when it comes to diverting resources from something else.

but the exaggeration is there to prove a point.


Originally Posted by Exorcet
I wouldn't consider flight model fixes and CTD issues minor. But point taken that DCS has existing problems.

Pfftt... flight models should be something they get right (or mostly right) from the get-go. So with CTD issues. These can be "major" items, sure, but again, ED does not get any brownie points for fixing stuff that shouldn't have made it past testing in the first place.


Originally Posted by Exorcet
That's totally fair to point out. It's all the worry over having to buy modules piece by piece that I found confusing.

If you read carefully, it wasn't only the "buying GPS for each module" issue that was being talked about. smile


- Ice
#4379141 - 09/12/17 01:14 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Xplane does not even come close to real helicopter flight as far as I can see. Not yet. Maybe someday. I do think Xplane has good flight modeling for the most part, but it is not perfect. For helicopter simming though, DCS is hands down better.

The DCS ATC sucks which is why I think that this GPS addon is a great thing, because again, with Pilotedge, you can have REAL atc and it will inject traffic into your sim (civilian AI aircraft on random routes, AND online flyers.)
DCS navigation is poor, but this is a good step in the right direction.

I'm sure some people won't find any use for this, but others will. I tend to do very little actual combat in DCS except for maybe the A-10C and occasional M2000 mission. Most of my time is spent in helicopters or sometimes the L-39. I use the sim to polish my skills, airmanship, navigation, IFR technique, etc. There actually are people out there doing this kind of thing. It's not only about combat.

As for pilotedge with fseconomy, it works fine. Pilotedge is merely an ATC service (live atc) and is not really connected to the sim other than to inject traffic and transmit your location to their server. So you can fly the same way you would offline. But you have to obey the pilotedge ATC, which means you can't really cheat and take the most direct routing all the time if ATC doesn't say it's OK. With all the drones and live players in the world, the chances are fairly high that you'll have to get in line on the ground or in the air at busy airports, and you'd better have your stuff together because they don't have a lot of patience when it's busy. You need to be able to fly STARS or VOR approaches correctly or they'll chew you out.

Not everyone's cup of tea, but if you like realism, and you want to be a better real world pilot, this combination will make you better, I'd be willing to guarantee it. Find all the faults with DCS you like, but you can use it as a simulator and it will improve your technique.

#4379225 - 09/12/17 05:11 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Still not answered one question, Longbow --- what RL experience do you have to make this call about helicopter flight model?

You are also talking about two things --- flight model and real world procedures. Won't flying in FSX/P3D/XP11 using the same program (ATC service like PilotEdge) still make you a better pilot? Even more, you can fly all over the world in those sims, so while the FM may not be "spot on," you basically see more of the world and get to practice more and different approaches to different airbases. Seems like all DCS really has is a better helo FM.... and then again, what RL experience do you have to make this call?


- Ice
#4379266 - 09/12/17 09:18 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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#4379348 - 09/13/17 09:56 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
...."no other military simulator i know of, including falcon bms, has ATC remotely resembling the realism you get on something like pilotedge. the gps is directly related to the ability to comply with modern ATC traffic control. VOR approaches are still in use in some places, but if you want to be able to fit into the average traffic flow at a big airport you're going to need to be able to fly an RNAV approach.

some of you might want to try it. you will likely be chewed out by controllers if you don't know how to do procedures properly or if you use radio terminology that is not in line with FAA/US military standards. How many people here even know how to work their transponder and its different modes? This addon is a great chance to improve your real airmanship, but again only if the navdata can be updated regularly using navigraph.
....

If\When DCS implement Human ATC....you would get these examples below, not a scripted sales pitch by actual airline pilots as is on the pilotedge home page.....

In reality....as in IRL....DCS multiplayer with human ATC would be something along the lines of these fine examples.....





Or perhaps....


#4379354 - 09/13/17 10:39 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
...


hahahahaha, first time i see these videos and i found them hilarious

thanks for sharing

BTW, this is probably what DCS would offers XD

#4379376 - 09/13/17 02:12 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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I'd probably fly DCS just for that entertainment factor!! smile


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#4379377 - 09/13/17 02:13 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield

In reality....as in IRL....DCS multiplayer with human ATC would be something along the lines of these fine examples.....


Sadly, you're not too far off the mark. The few servers that host a Simple Radio are getting that way. The large majority are fine, but a few leak in and garbage up the radios with chatter, despite established freqs for CAP, A2G, ATC, etc...
Or they arent on comms and just do whatever they want. Buzz the field repeatedly or takeoff opposite traffic flow.

#4379413 - 09/13/17 05:05 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: ST0RM]  
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Originally Posted by ST0RM
Originally Posted by Winfield

In reality....as in IRL....DCS multiplayer with human ATC would be something along the lines of these fine examples.....


Sadly, you're not too far off the mark. The few servers that host a Simple Radio are getting that way. The large majority are fine, but a few leak in and garbage up the radios with chatter, despite established freqs for CAP, A2G, ATC, etc...
Or they arent on comms and just do whatever they want. Buzz the field repeatedly or takeoff opposite traffic flow.


but then again...

Originally Posted by Nate
I'm sure he'll be back to explain once he's slept off his hangover

Nate



Nate would have to repeat this comment numerous times if ever there came about a "DCS Human ATC thread" and postings were allowed here or there (ED)......especially the recordings that would be posted to youtube as Airforceproud95 does with all his FSX vids. oh the humanity.....Everyone enjoys a realistic "combat simulator" Let's not forget.....most people who would join as ATC would need to blow higher than 0,08% in order to "control" the airspace and add to the multiplayer realism......

#4379427 - 09/13/17 06:08 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield

but then again...

Originally Posted by Nate
I'm sure he'll be back to explain once he's slept off his hangover

Nate



Nate would have to repeat this comment numerous times if ever there came about a "DCS Human ATC thread" and postings were allowed here or there (ED)......especially the recordings that would be posted to youtube as Airforceproud95 does with all his FSX vids. oh the humanity.....Everyone enjoys a realistic "combat simulator" Let's not forget.....most people who would join as ATC would need to blow higher than 0,08% in order to "control" the airspace and add to the multiplayer realism......


Still haven't gotten over that? LOL

Nate

#4379433 - 09/13/17 06:40 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Still not answered one question, Longbow --- what RL experience do you have to make this call about helicopter flight model?

You are also talking about two things --- flight model and real world procedures. Won't flying in FSX/P3D/XP11 using the same program (ATC service like PilotEdge) still make you a better pilot? Even more, you can fly all over the world in those sims, so while the FM may not be "spot on," you basically see more of the world and get to practice more and different approaches to different airbases. Seems like all DCS really has is a better helo FM.... and then again, what RL experience do you have to make this call?


several thousand flight hours (around 2000 if you want to be particular about it) and probably double or triple that in unloggable time (various reasons i won't discuss online, nothing too dark i assure you)

my first loggable flight hours were in a c150, followed by a c172 and then an R22 all on my 12th birthday. various other aircraft fixed and rotary including turbines and multi for both rotary and fixed followed over the years until 9/11 when i changed my career due to the destruction of the industry in north america. i have logged time in everything from tiny singles to 4 engine heavies, the most interesting probably being a turbine cricri experimental copy which is probably a death trap.

now i work primarily as a CRM trainer for japanese, chinese and korean pilots working with their respective national or commercial airlines. i started this company about 4 or 5 years ago.

Last edited by VF9_Longbow; 09/13/17 07:15 PM.
#4379447 - 09/13/17 08:04 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Thanks for that confirmation, Longbow! smile Interesting to see that DCS gets helos better than XP...

Now my other question... won't flying in FSX/P3D/XP11 using the same program make you a better pilot... if not in aircraft handling, at least in procedures? Is there any difference between FSX/P3D/XP11 vs. DCS that makes one or the other better at enabling pilots to practice procedures and airmanship?


- Ice
#4379451 - 09/13/17 08:40 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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for general fixed wing aviation, p3d or xplane are fine, but DCS is king of the hill for rotary.

yes, procedures won't change much between simulators, but the workload difference is immense when it comes to doing procedures in a helicopter in DCS. p3d and xplane helicopters fly on rails. you may as well be taking the train while talking to ATC.

with DCS you get a lot busier especially in IFR with autopilot off because the aircraft is very dynamic

#4379465 - 09/13/17 11:21 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
for general fixed wing aviation, p3d or xplane are fine, but DCS is king of the hill for rotary.
yes, procedures won't change much between simulators, but the workload difference is immense when it comes to doing procedures in a helicopter in DCS. p3d and xplane helicopters fly on rails. you may as well be taking the train while talking to ATC.
with DCS you get a lot busier especially in IFR with autopilot off because the aircraft is very dynamic

That's quite an interesting point, Longbow. I may try XPlane helos to compare, but this might explain why I'm crap at DCS BS2 smile
Is your last statement applicable to ALL helos in DCS? Or more so for specific helos and not so much for others??


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#4379524 - 09/14/17 06:29 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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All helos, but the Gazelle in DCS is not up to par IMO, though I've never flown the real one. But it feels like something is wrong with it, and from what I understand the developer is a former FSX developer and it shows the flight characteristics. It flies like it's on rails to some extent. The Huey and Mi-8 behave as most helicopters I've flown behave. No idea if the ka-52 is realistic because it's a weird rare helicopter, but it feels like it's a good approximation of what I would expect for that kind of rotor arrangement.

Real helos are easier to fly because the controls are better, having a joystick extension may help with this but I'm not going to spend $1,000 for a joystick with an extension since $1,000 will buy you nearly a dozen rental hours in a light helicopter or pay for half of a new rating to tag on to your license.

Emergency procedures are more difficult in DCS than real life too, in my opinion. It is easier to autorotate and more difficult to get into VRS or other settling-with-power type of situations. Tailwind danger is almost nonexistent in DCS but is a serious risk to be considered in real heli flying especially with obstacles nearby. I think DCS is too forgiving in that respect so it's easy to do vertical takeoffs all day and night at maximum weight. In real helicopters you try to avoid this when you can and use all the available runway or flat space you can.

But at normal flight speeds it is remarkably good, hovers are very well done, especially in ground effect, and DCS has extremely dark nights and very thick fog for wonderful IFR training.

That being said I am primarily a fixed wing pilot and heli flying is just a side-hobby of mine I pursued to broaden career options. I bow to anyone who's got more heli time than me. This is just my experience and opinion.

#4379540 - 09/14/17 09:51 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
... since $1,000 will buy you nearly a dozen rental hours in a light helicopter or pay for half of a new rating to tag on to your license.

Wow, about 12 hours of light heli for $1000!? Man, in Germany helicopter flight is soooo expensive.

Agree on the Gazelle, and it sometime behave weird. Pat01 (the code guy) wrote they work on the FM.

#4379559 - 09/14/17 12:19 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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#4379570 - 09/14/17 01:03 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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i wonder if that is insurance. if you guys can make it to the countryside in the US or even better, canada, the rates are very cheap still.

if you can fly solo the rental rate is significantly cheaper at most schools too.

it's also worth looking into partial ownership of a helicopter - usually ends up being cheaper per hour and is a good way to build time. have seen R22 partial ownerships for as low as $5,000 before.

#4379571 - 09/14/17 01:05 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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Hahaha!! Nice of you to say that about the Shark, Longbow.... maybe it's not totally my fault! smile Unfortunately, I don't own other helos...

Leaf, might be heli-type dependent? Maybe Longbow is talking about those really small helicopters? He did say light heli.


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#4379577 - 09/14/17 01:39 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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#4379619 - 09/14/17 04:00 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
Originally Posted by - Ice
Still not answered one question, Longbow --- what RL experience do you have to make this call about helicopter flight model?

You are also talking about two things --- flight model and real world procedures. Won't flying in FSX/P3D/XP11 using the same program (ATC service like PilotEdge) still make you a better pilot? Even more, you can fly all over the world in those sims, so while the FM may not be "spot on," you basically see more of the world and get to practice more and different approaches to different airbases. Seems like all DCS really has is a better helo FM.... and then again, what RL experience do you have to make this call?


several thousand flight hours (around 2000 if you want to be particular about it) and probably double or triple that in unloggable time (various reasons i won't discuss online, nothing too dark i assure you)

my first loggable flight hours were in a c150, followed by a c172 and then an R22 all on my 12th birthday. various other aircraft fixed and rotary including turbines and multi for both rotary and fixed followed over the years until 9/11 when i changed my career due to the destruction of the industry in north america. i have logged time in everything from tiny singles to 4 engine heavies, the most interesting probably being a turbine cricri experimental copy which is probably a death trap.

now i work primarily as a CRM trainer for japanese, chinese and korean pilots working with their respective national or commercial airlines. i started this company about 4 or 5 years ago.


*drops checklist during takeoff run, bends down to retrieve it*

#4379724 - 09/15/17 09:18 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow


several thousand flight hours (around 2000 if you want to be particular about it) and probably double or triple that in unloggable time (various reasons i won't discuss online, nothing too dark i assure you)

my first loggable flight hours were in a c150, followed by a c172 and then an R22 all on my 12th birthday. various other aircraft fixed and rotary including turbines and multi for both rotary and fixed followed over the years until 9/11 when i changed my career due to the destruction of the industry in north america. i have logged time in everything from tiny singles to 4 engine heavies, the most interesting probably being a turbine cricri experimental copy which is probably a death trap.

now i work primarily as a CRM trainer for japanese, chinese and korean pilots working with their respective national or commercial airlines. i started this company about 4 or 5 years ago.


As a passenger?? or actually in control of the aircraft?

As a passenger, I have several hundred hours up on heavy's (international and domestic flights) and around 1000 hours in various R22's mustering cattle on properties.

EDIT: My current place of work..... Helimuster situated Outback NT Australia

Last edited by Winfield; 09/15/17 12:07 PM.
#4379762 - 09/15/17 04:58 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
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A few hundred hours PIC in helicopters (Don't have heli logbook in Japan right now, in storage) plus a bunch of time PIC but not loggable due to regulation stuff. Mostly related to CRM training and freebies or trades with clients.

Cattle driving sounds like fun. At one point I was considering switching from fixed wing to rotary completely. I was looking at those boats in the pacific to wrangle tuna, now there is a dangerous job. A few accidents every year apparently. No shortage of work I guess.

Do you have a favorite sim copter?

I have to say the DCS Mi-8 is a lot of fun, I fly it a lot more than the Huey.

Heh, I just found this picture someone in my family posted up on facebook: This was my 2nd flight on my 12th birthday in C-FBOG, an ancient C172. Don't think it had a GPS. Very good learning experience. My airfield was TINY so standard approaches were short field, every time. Trees around all sides of the runway so every takeoff was done at best angle of climb. CYCD Nanaimo is about 15 minutes away across the water and they used to have an NDB a few miles off the field. Got a lot of NDB approach practice in marginal conditions. Not sure if that is still there anymore, probably replaced with a GPS fix. But that kind of practice really sticks with you, must be tough for younger folks now who struggle with NDB approaches - too much GPS reliance.

[img]https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.ne...37041d98718e776d8032e6d6&oe=5A159BFF[/img]

And here's a video of some guy making a crappy landing at my home field..! (Not my vid - I'd never bounce a landing that bad biggrin )
[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/nPQ11ZuWcas?t=4m9s[/video]

#4379768 - 09/15/17 05:13 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Winfield]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,555
VF9_Longbow Offline
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VF9_Longbow  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,555
Tokyo, Japan
out of curiosity how do they make money doing heli-mustering? Do the cattle owners really have that much money that they can afford to pay for helicopter flights?!

#4379797 - 09/15/17 10:17 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 8
Tread_Head57 Offline
Junior Member
Tread_Head57  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
out of curiosity how do they make money doing heli-mustering? Do the cattle owners really have that much money that they can afford to pay for helicopter flights?!


Owners of large ranches definitely do have the money to afford rounding up cattle via helecopter. Also, on very large ranches, this is actually the most cost effective means of gathering cattle.

#4379882 - 09/16/17 02:21 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Winfield]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 7,365
Stratos Offline
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Stratos  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 7,365
Amposta, Spain
Originally Posted by Winfield
EDIT: My current place of work..... Helimuster situated Outback NT Australia


Now, we want pics of this "work" or should I say "fun" of you...


-Sir in case of retreat, were we have to retreat??
-To the Graveyard!!

sandbagger.uk.com/stratos.html
#4379950 - 09/17/17 06:02 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: Stratos]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
Winfield Offline
model citizen
Winfield  Offline
model citizen
Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
QLD
Originally Posted by Stratos
Originally Posted by Winfield
EDIT: My current place of work..... Helimuster situated Outback NT Australia


Now, we want pics of this "work" or should I say "fun" of you...


Surely not.....it's just a job...like any other really. However it takes patience (and pestering) to get into this role\line of work. The "best" pilots come from working cattle on the ground and in the yards to understand how cattle think from the air.

I left the industry, worked at coal mines for several years, received a phone call from a good friend of mine to come back as a mentor at VRD.

It is just a "job"....

Who could forget the apache pilot who joined the ED forums and was bombarded with questions about his "day job" etc etc and never heard from again. it really is just a "job", there are enough vids\pics etc from heli-cowboys on youtube to quench your thirst.....

....Just because I fly rotor's as a day job, doesn't mean I fly rotor's on days off.

when there is cow s**t on the windshield.....add more collective







#4379951 - 09/17/17 07:17 AM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
Winfield Offline
model citizen
Winfield  Offline
model citizen
Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
QLD
Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
Cattle driving sounds like fun. At one point I was considering switching from fixed wing to rotary completely. I was looking at those boats in the pacific to wrangle tuna, now there is a dangerous job. A few accidents every year apparently. No shortage of work I guess.

Do you have a favorite sim copter?

I have to say the DCS Mi-8 is a lot of fun, I fly it a lot more than the Huey.


I enjoy the Huey....my scholarship\sponsorship where I gained my CPL was flying revised editions of the UH-1B\204 with these guys

Everyone on here (SimHQ) probably has flying experience in one way or another. I enjoy x-plane 10\11 that is my favourite sim for rotorcraft....when duty calls, I crank up DCS: A-10C, L-39 etc as it is a completely different feel to what I know.

But hey....what would I know?.... I am just here (externally) to support ED, it's moderators, community managers and throw my support behind all those who have been banned for voicing their opinion on the direction ED has taken the last 4 or 5 years.

It is only a matter of time before ED\TFC take on 3rd party developers (like IRIS, Carenado etc etc) and the focus turns to civil aviation.....Surely I can not be the only one who can see the direction that TFC is eventually heading.....more money in civil than milsim, especially with the quality of the maps that will be produced once ORBX get their hands on the SDK. Dovetails FSW is no doubt already in talks with ED\TFC as a way to further map development and GP for both companies.

#4379967 - 09/17/17 12:08 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
Winfield Offline
model citizen
Winfield  Offline
model citizen
Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
QLD
Originally Posted by Stratos


Now, we want pics of this "work" or should I say "fun" of you...


Someone on the ground was nice enough to upload one of my last flights with McDermott's before I called it quits. This is my "hover check"




Skip to 1:17 as for some reason the time stamp does not work within SimHQ's forums.

#4380003 - 09/17/17 07:38 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Totally, totally not jealous at all. No sir!


- Ice
#4380782 - 09/22/17 01:35 PM Re: DCS: Garmin GPS [Re: bkthunder]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
Winfield Offline
model citizen
Winfield  Offline
model citizen
Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 871
QLD
Crapmin??.....pfft,,,,,give me a Skymap any day....perhaps that might interest ED\TFC's consumers. .

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