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#4377780 - 09/04/17 04:21 PM Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too  
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Starting a new thread

I've been playing AoC the past few days and overall I really like it. There are some mechanics that I think are a great improvement, and some I don't care for as well. The province system is one of my favorites. Regional buildings that have province-wide bonuses make build orders fun to play with. It extends to retraining as well. Having a forge in your provincial capital means you can retrain armor and melee attack on a unit in any region within province. It's sort of the polar opposite of what I had just been playing in Stainless Steel, where units needed to be returned to a city where they could be recruited. I see pluses to each system. This is far less micro-management anyway. Religious spread works the same way and means you don't have to make each region a cookie-cutter copy of each other settlement.

I also really dig the traditions and unique names that armies receive. Generals come and go, but the army marches on. Battles are nothing too special. I've always found TW melee warfare to be OK, nothing special. I certainly prefer gunpowder when playing TW 3D battles. But the siege/settlement battles are more fun for me. As mentioned in the other thread, I tended to just auto-resolve these battles, but I want to play them out in this game.

The sanitation/squalor thing is a fine concept and mechanic, but at least in my Mercia run, the only buildings I could see that increase sanitation are the hospice line. And to build a hospice requires a ministry in the primary building slot of the provincial capital. That pigeonholes the urban planning since you certainly are going to need a hospice in each province if you want to build it up to be an economic powerhouse. I'd really like to see other options (bathhouses, aqueducts, that sort of thing) that can be built in any province and any slot, at a reduced sanitation bonus. I don't like the trait system. Every general and governor have exactly the same options, and the player picks them. I prefer a system to make each character more unique and out of the player's control. There are some traits that are handled that way though, and at one stage I think every general I had was flaccid. Yikes.

I do like the art scheme. Unit cards and buildings have the feel of the period. But CA has always done a good job with this. I'm not sold on naval units replenishing at sea. If feels cheap and easy. I think I'd prefer port-only.

Diplomacy is still way too light, but at least I haven't been back stabbed. I like how agreements and treaties with one nation affect relations with another. For example I have a defensive alliance with Franks. Of course they are at war with everyone. In order to maintain good relations with them, I have to be careful which of their enemies I am dealing with. At one point I needed to cancel a trade agreement with Venice in order to keep relations improving. It's far from EU IV-level diplomacy, but it's better than in any other TW game I've played.

I enjoy the mission system, which is more fleshed out than in any other version of TW I've played.

I could go on but just one more point I'll touch on. Agent play is almost nonexistent, at least in my run. Early on I had an enemy sow discontent a few times, but even then the -5 was easily offset by the positive factors of these regions. Even for myself, I basically have a priest if I need religious conversion and a few spies to act as scouts. I suppose it's better than say for example Shogun 2 where agents were everywhere and annoying. I'd prefer some sort of middle ground though. How do I recruit a champion? Do I need a certain building?

I completed the short campaign requirements as Mercia. I think I will try a legendary run as Cordoba perhaps. I want to see if I can get that achievement.


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#4377820 - 09/04/17 09:30 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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AOC plays a little different than Attila does and they use some different terms for what is essentially the same type of agent. Mercia doesn't get a character called a champion, hero, or veteran. Instead they get an Assassin, which essentially fills the same role. You may have noticed that as Mercia your priest/priestess is called an Abbess. Spies are sometimes scouts for some factions. Anyway to get the Assassin, one needs to build a hostel which is the first building in the tavern chain.

The in game encyclopedia is a bit lacking when trying to find this info. If you look up the faction and then their characters, it should have a link to the building that allows recruitment, but it doesn't. Instead, one has to stumble around through the building browser. I spent ages looking for this back when I first played Mercia. I kept looking in the military buildings. I should have remembered that taverns were the usual place for spies and assassins in many of the older TW games.

The diplomacy part of the game is certainly more involved than it used to be. I rarely paid much attention to it in past games. It was always just busy work to get to the 3D battles for me, but now one has to pay a bit more attention to it or they can get in trouble fast. At least it tends to make more sense---unlike in Empire when some oddball European country would offer to trade Iceland for all of North America and want money to boot.

Cheers


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#4377899 - 09/05/17 10:59 AM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond


I think I will try a legendary run as Cordoba perhaps. I want to see if I can get that achievement.



You may be able to pull this off since your only major threat early in the game is Asturias and you can usually get friendly relations with the Muslim Taifas in Spain. Your biggest problem will be internal. Cordoba starts off the campaign with major sanitation and public order issues and playing on "legendary" will make it even tougher to get those under control.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4377929 - 09/05/17 02:18 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Yes, well, my thinking was that the way the map is set up the Iberian peninsula is secure. I've mentioned on these boards before, but I like to play nations that have one direction to fight. And if they don't, then my opening strategies are usually geared to removing the threat 'behind me'. The Moors here fit the bill as there is no North Africa behind me to worry about.

But as you mentioned, Cordoba has internal issues that might be more trouble than it's worth.

I did start one run and here's how it went lol.

Cordoba starts at war with one nation to the north. I moved my starting army toward it, recruiting several mercs and regulars for a stack of 17/20.

The same-size enemy stack came down on turn one and took one of my small towns, easily overpowering my 400-strong garrison. I then moved to encircle them on the next turn. The enemy then moved a second half-stack down and engaged and whooped me but good. Killed my King and all but 400 of my troops. I need a new plan eek

My new thinking is to absorb the loss of a town and quickly raise a second full stack. If I can knock these guys out quickly, then I can establish front security. But to do so I have to fight on more or less even terms. It's legendary, which I have no experience with quite frankly. Perhaps by the time I have two stacks, they'll have three. This might be more than I can handle at this point. It was clear in the battle I lost that the AI has fairly strong buffs. I've played various TW games for hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of hours over the years I'm sure, so I know what I'm doing on the battlefield. But these guys were ummm, fanatical.


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#4377933 - 09/05/17 02:37 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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You can look it up online. The morale, unit upkeep and treasury bonuses (cheats) the AI gets under "legendary" is absurd. I've never played a TW campaign above "hard".


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4377953 - 09/05/17 04:10 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Legendary as Cordoba is way beyond me. I tried again and it all crashed in spectacular fashion. I do not have the knowledge and skill it takes to win this one.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4378082 - 09/06/17 01:29 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Well now, I have met my Total War match it would seem. After giving up trying to act like I could play Cordoba on Legendary I decided to give Attila proper, a go. Started a game as the Sassanids. No troubles really, but something about it didn't click with me. Staring at all that sand I guess.

So I started a new game as the Franks, on normal. Got a good start, knocking out the Saxons (sniped their starting at-sea stack with my navy), and then the next nation to the north to complete the province. I sort of turtled for a bit then took a couple of former WRE provinces in Belgium. One had been razed by the Jutes, so colonised it. A second was taken by rebels, so I took it from them.

But now it's a complete sh!t storm and I am at war with at least eight factions. I am struggling to survive, my economy is barely in the black, and probably not for long. I'm sure Attila himself will be along at any moment to pile on.

But you know what? It's fun. This is probably the most active and highly contested TW campaign I've ever seen. It's mayhem, and it's cool. I'm continually hanging by a thread, and usually that's only the case in the first 40 turns or so, after that you become a snowballing steamroller. But I am close to 60 turns in and I'm getting sacked, beaten in field battles, losing at the walls. Winning too. But I can't recall so much struggle in any TW game I've played. And this is Normal difficulty!

I've never been a sacker, looter raider. I tend to occupy. But I think I need to change my paradigm here and be well, more Barbarian. When in Rome and all.

One more thought... When deciding on which factions to try I read quite a few threads around the 'net. One thing that struck me is how TW Attila is an amazing story generator. The sheer diversity of each player's experience is really quite remarkable. The world in Attila is more dynamic than in any other version I'd reckon. This is a really good game.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4378084 - 09/06/17 01:43 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Playing as the Sassanids is recommended for newcomers to Attila since that faction gets a lot of territory and money to start off. However, you are an experienced TW player so playing as the Sassanids might have been too easy and boring. smile


If you play as a barbarian faction, sacking and looting is actually very important because often times you will find yourself desperately needing money BUT you can't risk over-extending your armies or you can't deal with the huge public order problem if you take that new settlement.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4378087 - 09/06/17 02:02 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Yeah, raiding and sacking allows you to play 'tall' I suppose, filling your coffers while draining the enemy's. I can only afford 2 field armies and they aren't even quite full stack. I cannot afford to upgrade them either. It was all going fine and then it all blew up.

I wonder if I should have cancelled my treaties with the WRE. It might have saved me from being at war with all of my neighbors. Diplomacy is the most fleshed-out in the series.

As much praise as I am heaping on this game, I want to counter by saying I hate the web-based encyclopedia.


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#4378100 - 09/06/17 02:51 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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You should try playing as the Huns! You can't settle at all so sacking, looting and razing is the order of the day! I had a lot of fun playing as them.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4378156 - 09/06/17 07:41 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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I should, indeed. I need to change my mindset and what better way?

Which factions in Atilla, AoC or TLR did you guys find gave you the best game?

I mentioned reading about different player's experiences. Many involved the player picking a faction, say the Franks for example, packing up and heading elsewhere, like moving to Carthage and setting up shop there. That seems so interesting. The scope of possibility in this game is huge.


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#4378157 - 09/06/17 07:43 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: Forward Observer]  
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Originally Posted by Forward Observer
AOC plays a little different than Attila does and they use some different terms for what is essentially the same type of agent. Mercia doesn't get a character called a champion, hero, or veteran. Instead they get an Assassin, which essentially fills the same role. You may have noticed that as Mercia your priest/priestess is called an Abbess. Spies are sometimes scouts for some factions. Anyway to get the Assassin, one needs to build a hostel which is the first building in the tavern chain.

The in game encyclopedia is a bit lacking when trying to find this info. If you look up the faction and then their characters, it should have a link to the building that allows recruitment, but it doesn't. Instead, one has to stumble around through the building browser. I spent ages looking for this back when I first played Mercia. I kept looking in the military buildings. I should have remembered that taverns were the usual place for spies and assassins in many of the older TW games.

The diplomacy part of the game is certainly more involved than it used to be. I rarely paid much attention to it in past games. It was always just busy work to get to the 3D battles for me, but now one has to pay a bit more attention to it or they can get in trouble fast. At least it tends to make more sense---unlike in Empire when some oddball European country would offer to trade Iceland for all of North America and want money to boot.

Cheers



Hey F/O, sorry, didn't mean to ignore your helpful post and good points all. I hate the encyclopedia. At the very least it could default to the player's current faction. But even then I would still hate it.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4378279 - 09/07/17 10:45 AM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond


Which factions in Atilla, AoC or TLR did you guys find gave you the best game?






If we are talking about the most fun and challenging campaigns then these are my definite picks:

Main game

Western Roman Empire
Eastern Roman Empire


The Last Roman

Roman Expedition (Belisarius)
Frankish Kingdom


Age of Charlemagne

Kingdom of Charlemagne
Emirate of Cordoba


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4378330 - 09/07/17 01:45 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Yeah, well best is subjective isn't it? But I thought I'd leave what it means up to anyone who chose to respond smile

Thanks for the reply. I gave up on the Franks game. I could have probably survived, but I think my choices and the way I played it backed me in to a corner and it would have been a slog for many years. So I set about picking another faction. You mentioned the ERE as fun, and I almost did that campaign, but I didn't want to start with such a sprawling empire. Many pick ERE as their favorite faction in Attila, so I will have to give it a go at some point and see what all the fuss is about. Those Visigoths look a b!tch to handle at the start eh?

So ultimately I decided to go with Saxons. My plan was to knock out The Franks for the port and then migrate to London, and that's just what I did.

I don't know if others want to read about my adventures, or if it's more like when someone tells you about a dream they had and you just want to roll your eyes, but anyway...

I jumped on the Franks on turn 2 and knocked them out, aside from 4 or 5 mauled units that escaped the battle. They took off to the south next turn and disappeared in to the fog. Good riddance. They won't be a problem again. Built a couple of ships to protect my intrepid migrators and headed for Britannia Superior, leaving a razed homeland in our wake. I needed the cash to fund the expedition. The WRE is overstretched and had only garrisons so the fights for London and Kent were fairly easy and the Saxons now were Anglo-Saxons.

But man is it expensive to convert the Roman regions. I was in a new land without my religion, with no way to recruit or replenish my armies and losing money every turn. I used every trick I knew as a noob, slowly disbanding to save on upkeep, juggling edicts and households, sacking nearby WRE settlements for cash,. Bye navy, was good to know ya. There goes my plan to sack everything along the coasts.

Eventually I got my economy, crippling famine and public order sorted, but it was close, ending some turns with less than 20 ducats or florins or whatever it's called in this game. Britain emerged to my west and north, and gave a nice buffer with Scottish. Finally able to support an almost- full stack in London I prepared to go on the offensive. And the Franks landed with a full stack! Son of a gun! I thought I was done with these guys. They just spent the last 20 turns hording around western Europe with revenge on their minds. They sieged London and stopped my recruitment queue so I had to fight them at less than favorable odds, but we won the sally battle with a close pyrrhic victory, but that's good enough, as long as no one dogpiles in my moment of weakness that is.

I did some scouting and saw that the Britains, or Britons, or whatever, were Roman type troops. Great.

Now I had to wait another 20 turns teching up to take them on. Once I could field Nordic Warriors and stand a chance I attacked the region to the west (Exeter, Cornwall), sorry I can't remember the Roman name, but it ends with 'ium' lol. As F/O mentioned before, having an Onager made them come at me, which made the battle for the city much easier. Took that region to complete the province and then moved my second army north to Nottingham (or whatever it is in the game). Took this region as well and made Britain my puppet, though that drags me in to a war with Caledonia to the north. Just as well as they would have been my next target and now I have another sacking and raiding target.

Looked at the clock and it was 2 am and had to be up at 6:30 to get the kid to school and get to work. Too old for this sh!t. biggrin



No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4378334 - 09/07/17 01:56 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
Those Visigoths look a b!tch to handle at the start eh?






They are but once you've played the ERE campaign a few times you realize the perfect strategy. I can eliminate those two Visigoth armies in about 4 turns tops. Of course, one or two of the cities in Greece will get sacked but that's the trade off.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4378532 - 09/08/17 04:30 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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That's a good start then eh? Then the Sassanids and all of their vassals probably declare on you. Seems a daunting start, but I imagine if you can survive the early going, things would come together quite nicely.

In my Saxon run things have also come together quite nicely. It's around 425, so about 100 turns in I think. I've concentrated on the British Isles, knocking out Caledonia, the Picts and the Celtic nation in Ireland, who decided to break our NAP and trade deal, so without a reason to keep 'em around we attacked. Again I sniped their full stack at sea, and then a second and their homeland was easy pickings. So the whole region is now just my Saxons and our vassal Britain. I see no real value in having a vassal in the center of my realm any longer, aside from the decent spear unit I can levy from them. I doubt they'll be much help when war turns to the continent, so thinking of breaking the treaties and knocking them out too.

I noticed that the starting Saxon and Franks regions that I razed at the start of our migration still have yet to be colonized. Is that common? Does the AI not do so? Maybe a good place to go back to, to reclaim those lands. I like a good story.

So here's a question. I have my economy purring along nicely, making plenty of money. But I know from what I've read, that climate change will eventually (soon?) hit me hard with severely reduced fertility in my lands. My current food production is predominately from the farm line. Should I be thinking of converting these to animal husbandry line? Is the fertility thing gradual, or will I one turn be at like -300 food all of a sudden? I'd like to mitigate the climate effect if I can, particularly as I have the funds at the mo to do so.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4378663 - 09/09/17 12:21 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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If you are in 425 the next climate change hit will occur in 432 and then again in 445 which is the final one. Try to build more fishing ports as those are unaffected by the climate change.

As for the razed settlements, the AI will resettle some of them but not all. I'm not sure what the algorithm is that guides that AI behavior.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4378668 - 09/09/17 12:36 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks PM. Stay safe!

I began building more animal husbandry buildings. Fishing ports is a good suggestion thanks. I have about 16 regions now, but only about 4 of them are coastal. Kent is my trade hub and Wales is my military port. That leaves 2 for fishing.

Not knowing how severely the climate change would affect me, I decided to be strategically proactive and began looking for a fertile target. Just about then, the Maurians in Iberia declared war. on me. With preparations just completing in a most timely manner I shipped two armies there and now own Galicia, which is still fairly fertile and has helped stabilize the food supply situation, and got some gold for a nice bonus.

I got a glimpse of Attila himself as he sacked and razed the French coast. A little scary. Just praying he doesn't decide to come after me. My entire realm is as far away as possible, all the British isles and the NW corner of Iberia. I wonder if the Huns would cross the English channel?


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#4378703 - 09/09/17 04:24 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
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Hi guys, I just got back in town, and although I had my laptop with me, I didn't have the time to do any more than check the forum once or twice.

Anyway, Dbond, it's interesting that you switched to the Saxons since that's the faction that I had been playing before I went out of town. Playing on normal, I defeated the Franks right off the bat just as you did, and also had a small contingent get away. A turn or two later I got an offer for peace from them, which I refused. They pretty much disappeared into the Mediterranean, and I sort of forgot about them as I planned my assault on the British Isles. The slowest going to that part was when I would capture a former Roman settlement. The cost of converting concrete and marble structures to log huts and muddy pig runs is astronomical and takes 10 turns for the capitols and 8 for the minor settlements--one would almost be better off to raze the settlement and then resettle.

Anyway, after I got the the British Isles captured, I turned back to the mainland and Gaul with the idea to cut through to the Mediterranean at Italy and work my way around the north coast to take on the ERE and Constantinople. I made it to the coast and am currently settling a former desolated province at the shank of the Italian peninsula. it turns out that the ERE no longer holds Constantinople. The Visagoths have it, so it's now all Germanic--the once shining capitol of the eastern Romans is now all log huts and more pig runs.

However the big surprise was that the long forgotten about Franks now control a good portion of North Africa. They are at the number four power spot with 17 settlements. Looks like, I'm going to have to fight them again. Luckily, I'm the number one power, so I do have an edge.

It's still slow going because of having to resettle too many desolated provinces, which just takes time.

Panzer is spot on about fishing jetties. They give you plus 50 food and 450 gold in income at the basic level which is not affected by the climate changes. That's one of the reasons I plan to work my way clockwise down the coast of the Med just to get as many ports as I can. You can get by with one or two military ports and trade ports are just a luxury for later on.

As to playing the ERE, I had been playing them almost exclusively for quite a while after getting Attila. I tend to get into a rut like that once I play a faction and enjoy the campaign. They do start with a large Empire, but it's not in good shape nor do you have armies of sufficient size to defend it--much less go on the offensive. You start out at war with four migratory factions.

I got so obsessed with it that I constantly experimented with the 1st ten to fifteen turns to come up with the best strategy to overcome the starting obstacles. I have one now that works pretty well about 4 out of every 5 starts on the normal difficulty. I haven't tried this strategy at a higher level, but it should work. I've gotten lazy in my old age and mostly stick to the normal levels for most games. I did win a legendary campaign in Shogun 2 after about 20 tries just to get the Steam achievement, but it was not fun and it almost soured me on the series. Now I find normal and occasionally hard more than enough to be challenged, but still enjoy the game.

I can't imagine playing either of the Roman factions on something like legendary in Attila.

If you do decide to have a go at the ERE, just ask and I can give you a few tips that might save you a little time in getting things under control at the start.

Cheers


Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
#4378718 - 09/09/17 05:19 PM Re: Attila and Age of Charlemage plus The Last Roman too [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 13,199
DBond Offline
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DBond  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 13,199
NooJoyzee
Great post F/O, thanks much. You and PM have been very helpful.

I want to ask how you know what the construction is like in Constantinople? How do you see the buildings in settlements you do not own?

It sounds like you are further along than I am in your Saxon run right? What sort of army composition are you running with? I am mostly using Nordic Spears with a mix of Nordic warriors and Hearth Guard and a mix of skirmish/light/lancer type cav.. I do have a province that can recruit the Heroic cavalry, spears and infantry, but it is the northernmost one in Scotland. And they are too expensive to use in all armies. I have just one 'elite' army and the rest are Hearth Guard sort of caliber.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
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