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#4373925 - 08/11/17 07:45 PM Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game  
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Si89_Studios Offline
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Hello everyone!

I am here to share with you about the game we are creating. We are friends indie dev team (we named Si89 Studios), developing in this moment (for 4 months so far) a simulation game called Baptism By Fire, and I am here because it is very hard to find people interested in good ideas (at least we think this game will be a good idea dancinfools ). So I will explain some ideas of the game here, for the right understanding about what is this, and I need your feedback if its a good idea, if we need to change or improve something etc. We really need your ideas and support.

1 - The game is called Baptism By Fire and is under development for 4 months, we are using Unity engine for several reasons.
2 - The game will be made with almost full simulation features.
3 - The game will be a WW2 combat simulator, including tanks, infantry, air force, artillery, submarines etc, but we will start in this pre alpha with the armor part, that we are going to call "Steel".
4 - For resuming, the idea of the game is make something similar to Forgotten Hope 2 when it comes to variety of vehicles and kinds of maps, but not arcade like FH2. The difference with our maps is the size... now, in the tests, I am working with a 5km x 5km map, but the idea is bigger maps.
5 - It will be something similar to T34 vs Tiger when it comes to armored vehicle and battle distances, and the interior will be something like what is presented in the Red Orchestra 2 interiors of the tanks. The tanks will be made with positions, and military hierarchy
6 - It will be something similar to IL2 Sturmovik 1946 when it comes to aircrafts.
7 - It will be something like Operation Flashpoint : Dragon Rising 2 when it comes to FPS, but the damage will be as realist as possible to have a good gameplay and realism balance, but the realism will be the priority.
8 - The military hierarchy will be funcional in the war mode, but in the arena mode will be different.

The game is in very beginning, and for start from a good start, we are here to collect opinions and support, because we will need to test the game and we will need to recruit some of your for testing sometimes.

Here is the last video which shows some tests, we are working in the multiplayer system now. Almost everything is different now from the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCROL844xqk

Thank you in advance and feel free to give your opinion smile


Last edited by Si89_Studios; 08/11/17 09:54 PM.

"All Quality Springs From The Truth"

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#4373945 - 08/11/17 10:25 PM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Si89_Studios]  
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I dont hate what I am seeing so i'll wish you guys luck and hope to see more from you guys down the road.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#4373970 - 08/12/17 12:01 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Master]  
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Thank you for the support! We are going to post here all the updates and news... have you watched the video ? What do you think about the ideas itself ?


"All Quality Springs From The Truth"

www.si89studios.com

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#4373996 - 08/12/17 03:23 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Si89_Studios]  
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Looking good. I don't like having that much bounce in my step though.

#4373997 - 08/12/17 03:31 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Si89_Studios]  
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I like the idea and if it is implemented smoothly it should be a good game. Video looked good but too much motion blur and stuttering. It is very early view of the game though so I cant knock you for that.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
-IL-2 BoS Dev Team

http://www.alt-games-warbirds.com

RoF: =AGW= Master
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#4374015 - 08/12/17 09:40 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Master]  
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Yes, I agree because there is nothing done related to graphics and image yet, only provisional stuff. But the penetration values due to distance, angle of impact, bullet hardness vs armor hardness materials, ballistics etc is almost done! Because my primary focus is on the mechanics of the game, because this game is supposed to be free of complains like OP or nerf, because it will be accurate in historic data and physics... And thank you for the feedback!


"All Quality Springs From The Truth"

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#4374018 - 08/12/17 12:34 PM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Si89_Studios]  
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I see you are attempting a "ground-up" method of game development, and this is fine, but it can be very easy to lose control of the project scope. If at this stage your focus is on ground vehicles, you should be careful to pin down the limits of the game and where you will draw the line with regards to features. There are 5 different games (each successful in their own right) listed as gameplay goals for different parts of the simulator, and this is where I see a problem.

As an indie dev team you don't have the manpower to make a game or simulator in the traditional sense using the same methods as larger studios, so you'll need to focus on a niche and do it better than everyone else. For example, as a vehicle simulator, consider using Unity's physics libraries to spice up your vehicle damage modeling. Using rigid body physics components linked by joints (a la Kerbal Space Program) could be a great head start towards a very robust damage system.

You'll need a dedicated artist on the team to ensure your scenes are visually consistent. This is a role that should never be attempted by the lead programmer, simply because it represents a conflict of interest (optimization vs. beauty) which usually results in mediocrity on both ends. A sound designer is also crucial - don't underestimate how difficult and time consuming an immersive audio environment can be to produce.

Those concerns aside, I wish you the best of luck in your development and hope to see you release a completed product in the near future!

#4374020 - 08/12/17 12:59 PM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: B25Mitch]  
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Originally Posted by B25Mitch
I see you are attempting a "ground-up" method of game development, and this is fine, but it can be very easy to lose control of the project scope. If at this stage your focus is on ground vehicles, you should be careful to pin down the limits of the game and where you will draw the line with regards to features. There are 5 different games (each successful in their own right) listed as gameplay goals for different parts of the simulator, and this is where I see a problem.

As an indie dev team you don't have the manpower to make a game or simulator in the traditional sense using the same methods as larger studios, so you'll need to focus on a niche and do it better than everyone else. For example, as a vehicle simulator, consider using Unity's physics libraries to spice up your vehicle damage modeling. Using rigid body physics components linked by joints (a la Kerbal Space Program) could be a great head start towards a very robust damage system.

You'll need a dedicated artist on the team to ensure your scenes are visually consistent. This is a role that should never be attempted by the lead programmer, simply because it represents a conflict of interest (optimization vs. beauty) which usually results in mediocrity on both ends. A sound designer is also crucial - don't underestimate how difficult and time consuming an immersive audio environment can be to produce.

Those concerns aside, I wish you the best of luck in your development and hope to see you release a completed product in the near future!


Hello! smile

When it comes to the 5 games I mentioned, it is only an example, because our goal is to make different, but in the same level. The game is being developed in parts exactly for do as you said. We are already using Rigidbody physics for the bullet system, and I had to create something more reliable than the unity's default collision detection system. I am a KSP player as well since I was student of aerospace engineering. We are in 6 now, 4 artists (2 photoshop artists for textures, UI etc and 1 char 3D modeler and 1 level and vehicle modeler, we already have a lot of 3D tanks ready to be prepared, I am a sound designer as well and composer, I used to be professional musician and composer for years ^^, I have composed 3 symphonies, for example haha).

I think we can go relatively fast since I was with 0 knowledge of unity 4 months ago (I was trained only in C language and 3D design for engineering), and now I have learned some stuff that i generally see the people having a lot of problems, I learn the stuff a little bit fast :P

Thank you for you feedback and I am really happy you liked the ideas. I explained the ideas veeeeeeery summarized , there are a lot of other details, for example: We are going to implement medics, with ambulances, needs of transport patients... combat support, with trucks of ammo for tanks, artillery etc... the game will be based on courses system, the war mode will be based on military hierarchy including dictators and presidents, which will manage supplies, position troops in the maps etc... the war will last 1 month and this month will be split in years of the war, which will be make vehicle available or not according with the years of availability in real life . The idea is pretty complete, I will telling here gradually !

Thanks biggrin


"All Quality Springs From The Truth"

www.si89studios.com

www.facebook.com/Si89Studios/


#4374035 - 08/12/17 04:39 PM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Si89_Studios]  
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I see that you are doing multiplayer. What are the plans for SP? Will there be any AI units in MP?

#4374061 - 08/12/17 08:43 PM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: James McKenzie-Smith]  
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Since it is a simulator, I haven't planned to add AI or SP so far, but it depends on the purpose, what ideas do you have about it ?


"All Quality Springs From The Truth"

www.si89studios.com

www.facebook.com/Si89Studios/


#4374086 - 08/13/17 01:10 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Si89_Studios]  
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Thanks for the quick reply.

I think that there is a problem with having a game relying on MP, and being the scale that you are simulating. Simply put, even if you have a battlefield that has say 100 people in it, it will feel quite empty, and also have unrealistic force ratios. With 100 players and a 5x5 km map, you will average 4 people per square km. Of course, during game play, some areas will be more densely populated, but some rather less, and in no case will any area be anything close to what one might expect in a WW2 battlefield. Also, as noted previously, force ratios will be skewed; with even one aircraft in the air, that means a greater proportion of the total force in an air role than in reality, by a long shot. Put in a number of aircraft that will make for minimally good game play, say four fighter bombers vs. four fighter bombers, and things get radically skewed away from reality. Same thing for tanks. You will require unrealistic numbers of AT guns and systems, and AAA as well, in order to give leg units a chance. You might end up with about ten riflemen a side when all is said and done. This is all to say nothing about the inclusion of submarines.

There is another problem with having an MP only game; it cannot be played without other players. This is not a problem for a game with solid SP options, and also one that requires only small numbers of MP players (two player games such as chess being a classic example). However, if you have a 5x5 km battlefield, you need a significant number of players to make things viable. There are millions of game players out there, but once you factor in everyone in the world's different tastes, different languages, schedules, owned systems, purchasing power, competing products etc., coupled with your marketing budget - I am guessing that this is going to be small - then you will need to be damned lucky to get enough players to make this game viable. Just look at the many MP specific games on Steam that die immediately for lack of players.

I asked about AI because AI can assist in eliminating some of these deficiencies. I play the ArmA2 derivative sim Iron Front in SP mode, and, given the type of game play that I do, viz., player controlled companies and understrength battalions with the ability to jump into any of the units on the battlefield at any time, I could not hope to experience this without AI. I like some of your ideas, to be sure, but the sort of game play that I enjoy in Iron Front will likely not be possible in an MP only product.

I suggest that you have a few alternatives available to you:

1. Carry on with your plan, and hope that you can attract a meaningful player base to make the game viable. In all sincerity, if you choose to carry on this course, I wish you the very best of luck.

2. Introduce AI into the existing design to make up deficiencies in player numbers, in order to avoid a vast, depopulated game.

3. Radically reduce the scope of the game. Think MUCH smaller battles, like the modern conflict-based game Squad, and lose things like submarines entirely, and player controlled aircraft. Ensure that tanks are present in relatively small numbers, except for specifically tank-centric scenarios, where you can probably increase distances a little. Other aspects of game play can be added as desired after initial release. This is my recommended solution if you must remain an MP-only, AI free game, although do note this market has a few games in it already, with more on the horizon.

4. Produce a game that with each layer of game play simulated rather differently. Something like the solutions developed for WW2 Online and Heroes and Generals, with several small ground battlefields connected on a larger strategic map, on which air action can take place. When aircraft enter the air space of the ground battlefields, then these can be rendered for the aircraft (and the AC can appear to the ground troops as well). Of course, this space is occupied by Heroes and Generals, but AI filling out units would help you stand out.

#4374110 - 08/13/17 11:02 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: James McKenzie-Smith]  
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Thank you for your time!

What I have to say is I haven't thought about these details yet, and you gave me a light, so the AI system and SP systems will be implemented , but I will program these systems after the multiplayer system is done and stable.
About the number 3 advice, this is already in the plans, there will be the arena mode and the war mode for it. Aircraft and submarine will be done later, not now. The 5km maps will allow bug battles but the advances will be like in real life, in groups, and for specific points. I am already planning a system to avoid forever alone players in nowhere: if the distance between one soldier and the officer greater than X, the officer will be informed, and can kick the player if he wants, exactly for not having the heroes and generals problems (tank rambos on bike, tank balance problems like OP and NERF stuff etc will not be here as well, because these is one of the most problematic issues in heroes and generals. Since our game will be based on physics and real data, this problem will be eliminated). The tip number 4 is in the plans too. The huge maps will be as well for the aircraft pilots having a realistic experience (the first map Idea was 60km x 60km hahaahaha).

I really appreciate your help! And you just changed important things of the game! If you have some game developing ability, even as a beginner, join us! Let's participate to make this idea real!

Thank you for everything smile


"All Quality Springs From The Truth"

www.si89studios.com

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#4374127 - 08/13/17 03:04 PM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Si89_Studios]  
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As a long time player of War Thunder, specifically Ground Forces in Sim Mode, the big killer for me and a big complaint was to many aircraft and their ability to easily one shot ground units and take you out of the game early, sometimes only a minute after you had spawned into a 30 minute match. Another other problem from a game play point was small maps, even Kursk is only something like 4k by 4k, but it seems you are not going that route. Another biggie was it doesn't take long for people to work out the best one shot spots on tanks, Tiger through the drivers hatch, Shermans in the front corners etc. so as long as you had the bigger gun/better pen value and you weren't a noob you could wreak havoc. The game was a ton of fun and looks beautiful but i'm convinced the devs seem to want to kill it and leave it as an arcade fest which is terrible considering how many good points it does have. Great models, decent physics, some really good looking maps despite the sizes and nice environment destruction. The ship side of it they are working on now had me excited initially but world of warships has that covered and far far better than what they have shown as to leave me totally uninterested in the merge of water with land and sky battles.

Pop up or long range rendering, also a problem with many pvp games, how good does Unity handle that as it's a big factor in long distance battles? You think you're hidden or at least partially in cover but you are standing out starkly and easily picked off.

Heroes and Generals kept me interested for about a month but the grind and level up factor is once again terrible once you hit the wall after the initial quick rewards, please don't make yet another grind game, the market is past flooded smile

Good luck, it's a long road and many games die early, wish you lot the best and drop me a pm if you need any testing done i would be more than happy.


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#4374158 - 08/13/17 05:40 PM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Ajay]  
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Thank you Ajay, for your feedback!

In the case of war thunder, there is no simulation mode, the game is only arcade and what changes is only some features and details. There is no simulation in any tank game which the player can shot and drive at the same time.
When it comes to overpowered aircrafts, the problem is that they really were OP, but, these situations you have mentioned aren't so common because there was a lot of anti aircraft guns everywhere to avoid it.
The one shot kill spots would only exists if it was like that in real life, because our game is not based on raycast shots. Instead raycast we are using rigidbodies so physics rules.
As a player, I can say you are completely right when you say a lot of game devs are trying to kill the their own games when they DON'T LISTEN to the players! Not the complains but important stuff like bugs or unrealistic and unfair gameplay problems. Not the realistic unfair features (there was a lot, and we are not going to give unrealistic features in exchange with fair gameplay features).

In unity, I have tested in my provisional 5km x 5km maps shots in distances around 4km and works very fine. The penetration tests we are building as in real life, exhaustive empiric tests, shooting several times, in several angles on a large range of distances, and it is the main goal: this bullet system works fine. For deal with rendering distance issues, we are using LOD and Occlusion Culling optimization... Because we need some precision, like, for example, it will be possible to attach vegetation on the tanks, for camouflage, for examples, but the tank crew or infantry will need to add it manually.

Do you believe my first idea about make a game myself was because I was a Heroes and Generals player (3000 hours playing), and I know deeply their problems. Our game is going to work in a course system, and will be very different to H&G but I will try to preserve the good features of the game, and the Pay to win from heroes and generals is not on the plans. We have a very different way of thinking.

If you want, email us for it, because we are going to need tester players soon (today for example we would test some features, but it was not possible due to the others haha).

Thank you for your feedback and we will appreciate your help or anyone else from this forum as test players biggrin


"All Quality Springs From The Truth"

www.si89studios.com

www.facebook.com/Si89Studios/


#4374212 - 08/14/17 06:32 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Si89_Studios]  
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I think it is still possible as an independent developer to work on a project like this if you
  • Use third party elements like render engine, network libraries, etc. as much as possible
  • keep your staff small
  • keep your work focused on the barebone components, to flesh them out later if the initial concept is successful
  • are prepared that everything takes longer than expected
  • establish your design goals early, and stick to them

Also, you want to keep in mind scalability:
  • Will your game still perform if you increase the map size by a factor of 100, or 1,000?
  • Will your game perform with 10 players, 1,000, a million, ten million?
  • Different units need different map sizes. Different map sizes require different levels of detail.
    Different LODs can become a big issue once that you have, say, the aircraft shooting on the infantry guy. The infantry guy sees himself in cover, but the aircraft player's LOD doesn't include the covering elements, so the infantry player actually is exposed. This correlation problem is serious because it threatens the perception of balance and fairness.
  • Who will create your maps and your game scenarios - can you scale the content creation as well?

If you want to do everything as a simulation, be preprared for the consequences, or drop the "simulation" argument in your marketing.

#4374214 - 08/14/17 07:23 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake
  • are prepared that everything takes longer than expected
  • establish your design goals early, and stick to them

Those are the most important in my experience. Also, do not be afraid to kick anyone from the team if they do not share and follow the teams dream. PEDG would have done better if they had kicked me to the curb rather then moving on and leaving it to me. But, then SB may not have had some of the great people they had.

Originally Posted by Ssnake

If you want to do everything as a simulation, be preprared for the consequences, or drop the "simulation" argument in your marketing.

Yes, be prepared for the people that think your simulation is not accurate enough, or think it is too difficult. There will always be people who are not happy with your dream. Do not take there opinion as a personal attack.


TPA who TWI
#4374222 - 08/14/17 10:36 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Si89_Studios]  
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Some random, personal observations...

1. For me, no SP = no interest, no matter how good the rest is.

2. SP should include a decent mission builder and one or more campaigns (even if composed of no more than themed mission sets). Frills like medals or crew management are non-essential.

3. Must feature (i) reasonably accurate crew drills eg for target indication and tank commander role, and (ii) reasonably good platoon command and control, including R/T and intercom traffic, including spotting/contact/damage reports.

4. AI should be at least adequate eg keeping frontal armour towards threats, preferably using cover.

5. For the tank sim/game element, playing and learning from existing sims that do most or all of the above best - currently Steel Beasts, Panzer Elite and SABOW - is essential. OFP/ARMA2/Iron Front is not a great example, as a tanksim. T-34-v-Tiger is very good at simulating the handling of one tank, but is very much let down by doing 2 above inadequately, not doing at all the second part of 3, and doing 4 badly.

6. Something that a real soldier would recognise as an accurate representation of the military activity being portrayed is an important goal - for 'Steel', get some real tankers involved. Accurate armour penetration etc is useless, on its own. And read a lot, concentrating on tankie memoirs. My recommendations would include Mailed Fist by John Foley, Take These Men by Cyril Jolly, Tank Action by David Render & Stuart Tootal, and Armoured Guardsmen by Robert Bowscawen. Donald Featherstone was a tanker in Tunis and Italy and his 'Tank Battles in Miniature - a Wargamer's Guide to the Mediterranean Campaigns 1943-1945' is very useful. Also stuff like this [url=http://pedg.chollie.co.uk/index/Britno41pt2.pdf][/url]. You need to understand how armies work, not just how tanks work.

7. Ostfront has been overdone, even as a first theatre. NW Europe 1944-45 would be much preferable - British & US -v- German. Or North Africa 1941-2, DAK -v- 8th Army.

8. Make it mod-able, so that modders can add content like additional vehicles and weapons, and maps etc.

9. The programme seems impossibly ambitious, such that wider goals could interfere with getting any one thing done sufficiently well (to me, 'sufficiently well' = to the standard where, even if a 'sim lite', the result is still clearly a sim and not an arcade game (ie has realistic gunsights, no floating target markers for gunning in the external view etc). To make a decent ww2 tanksim would be more than ambitious enough for any one project. OFP demonstrates that a soldier sim is likely to be an indifferent tanksim or air combat sim - 'jack of all trades and master of none' syndrome. By all means, plan to follow up a tanksim/game with other genres based on similar engine or whatever, but don't compromise any one product - especially not the first one - for the sake of trying to do 'everything'. Park the rest, concentrate on making Phase 1 everything that you (and the potential customers you're aiming it at) want it to be.




Last edited by 33lima; 08/14/17 11:06 AM.
#4374226 - 08/14/17 11:05 AM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: 33lima]  
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Originally Posted by 33lima
Some random, personal observations...

1. For me, no SP = no interest, no matter how good the rest is.





+1


I will also chime in with my 2 cents. The demographic that is mostly going to be interested in a game like this is the SimHQ one (ie males over the age of 35 or so).


A strong single-player component is vital for this demographic.


Mandata tua!
#4374359 - 08/14/17 10:46 PM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake
I think it is still possible as an independent developer to work on a project like this if you
  • Use third party elements like render engine, network libraries, etc. as much as possible
  • keep your staff small
  • keep your work focused on the barebone components, to flesh them out later if the initial concept is successful
  • are prepared that everything takes longer than expected
  • establish your design goals early, and stick to them

Also, you want to keep in mind scalability:
  • Will your game still perform if you increase the map size by a factor of 100, or 1,000?
  • Will your game perform with 10 players, 1,000, a million, ten million?
  • Different units need different map sizes. Different map sizes require different levels of detail.
    Different LODs can become a big issue once that you have, say, the aircraft shooting on the infantry guy. The infantry guy sees himself in cover, but the aircraft player's LOD doesn't include the covering elements, so the infantry player actually is exposed. This correlation problem is serious because it threatens the perception of balance and fairness.
  • Who will create your maps and your game scenarios - can you scale the content creation as well?

If you want to do everything as a simulation, be preprared for the consequences, or drop the "simulation" argument in your marketing.


Hello Ssnake!

Thank you for your time thinking about it (and writing as well haha)! I can say almost everything you said is already on the plans! This part of LOD system is something "basic" for me even for me as a new unity user, I have studied it a lot because I am very focused in the details in my life, in general, so when it comes to something what would me angry as player, I will do it right! biggrin

The "responsibility" of being a simulator is really something very important, and we are going to have a arena mode of playing, which will include more "arcade" stuff.. I can't really call arcade because it will work with the same features of the war mode, but with a common matchmarking system..

Thank you! biggrin

Feel free to add more ideas, I am glad that you guys are participating! Thank you all ! biggrin


"All Quality Springs From The Truth"

www.si89studios.com

www.facebook.com/Si89Studios/


#4374362 - 08/14/17 10:57 PM Re: Baptism By Fire - A integrated simulation game [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 33
Si89_Studios Offline
Junior Member
Si89_Studios  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 33
Brazil, Brasília and UK, Lond...
Thank you for your opinion Brit44 'Aldo'! It is very important for us!

I don't know what is PEDG or SB though haha. I know the people are crazy... if there are doubts about it, just look for the comments in any video on youtube... almost every topic there are people unsatisfied and complaining and we are prepared to it (no, indeed we aren't because nobody is prepared to it hahah).
With the support from here, we can make this game a game that born here, created by the SimHQ users.. I am new on the forum but with you all support we can do that like this, I guess.

If you want to help more, feel free to say what you want, and you don't need to care about nothing you want to say: just say sincerely what is in your mind, without "smooth" nothing biggrin

Thank you for you help!


"All Quality Springs From The Truth"

www.si89studios.com

www.facebook.com/Si89Studios/


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