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#4373172 - 08/07/17 05:52 PM Getting started - need advice from the experienced :)  
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Spectre-63 Offline
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Hi all -

I threw caution to the wind after finding a great car seat to build my cockpit around over the weekend and have started with a basic cockpit. Eventually, I plan to have a side console for the throttle, but the laptop tray will suffice for the moment.

Issues to be addressed:

1.) Seat height vs monitor - my current seat sits approximately 16" from the floor to the base of the seat - trying to figure out how best to support the car seat without adding too much weight.

2.) Keyboard tray - how are others handling this with a center stick? I'd like something that can be swiveled into and out of position, but I'm struggling finding an option that's not part of a commercial cockpit package.

3.) Considering an extension - probably a 75mm - I was looking at Dudley's pvc extension for his friend's pit as I like the angled extension.

Here's a pic of the initial setup - pardon the mess:

[Linked Image]

The stick mount was done with 3" ABS pipe, a 3-4" expander, and a 4" blind cap. Once I got the right screws (M4 20mm), everything went together quickly.

If anyone has any suggestions on this stuff, I'd greatly appreciate any advice!

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4373204 - 08/07/17 11:05 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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You forgot one important thing... a pic of your car seat! smile

Here's a few pics of my current setup:
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


I mounted my seat on a frame of timber and fixed castor wheels. You can see the groove for the castor wheels on the 2nd pic. The height of the side consoles was then worked out based on the resulting height of the seat plus the platform base. Everything.... the height of the monitors, the actual mount position of the center monitors, the height of the main monitor trays.... everything is derived from the resulting dimensions of your seat setup.

I've opted for a side-stick mount because I play Falcon BMS and the F-16 has a side-stick setup. Doing so allows me to have a keyboard tray... you can see the lip of the tray under my center touchscreen. However, the tray is not wide enough for a keyboard and mouse, so the mouse is on the side console.... or I offset the keyboard so that it's resting on the throttle as well to make room on the tray for the mouse. Also, the tray cannot accomodate the keyboard through the open-close position, so the keyboard is actually off to the side when not in use and just placed on the tray as needed.

As for extension, it depends on what sim you're flying. While I did enjoy having an extension when flying DCS A10C (on an old pit with center-stick mount), I felt like the whole setup became too top-heavy and the springs inside the WH base could not compensate for the extra weight/length. I do like your setup where you raised the WH base... maybe you could combine a raised base with a short extension to get the best of both worlds? I would make the frame out of wood --- I like my setups over-engineered to give as little play as possible.

Hope that helps.... and welcome to the entrance to the rabbit hole!


- Ice
#4373254 - 08/08/17 07:56 AM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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I use a 15cm extension centre mounted with a KG13 repro. Works well for me, even when I had the standard Warthog grip attached.
But if I did feel it was top heavy Sahaj has started to produce stronger springs for the Warthog to compliment his stick extensions

https://warthog-extensions-by-sahaj.com

#4373302 - 08/08/17 04:08 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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Thanks for the input guys!

Ice -

the reason there's no pic of the seat is that I'm still trying to figure out how to mount it. The struggle at the moment is that I've calculated I want approximately 16" of height from the base of the seat to the floor so that I'm looking at the center of the screen. I like the looks of your castor track as I'm sure that provides great stability. How (if at all) are you locking the seat in position once you're flying? Did you build the desk or was that something you had already?

I'm primarily flying IL2 at the moment, although it wouldn't be impossible to imagine that expanding in the future. The center stick may wind up being discarded if I can't identify a good way to address the keyboard issue.

#4373350 - 08/08/17 07:35 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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The height from the base.... which is the pit floor you see on the 2nd pic... to the underside of my knee is exactly 16 inches smile My bum is obviously lower... but like I said, I worked out the height of the monitors and consoles and everything else based on the height of the seat. The seat determines my eye level and my arm position and thus everything is based off of that position. You're doing it the other way around. Do you already have a table for your monitors then? I had to make my own monitor "table" because I needed to mount a touchscreen in the most ergonomic position possible...

As for locking my seat in position, you will see a small latch on the lower left corner of my seat assembly. It's basically this item painted to match.


- Ice
#4373361 - 08/08/17 08:23 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
The height from the base.... which is the pit floor you see on the 2nd pic... to the underside of my knee is exactly 16 inches smile My bum is obviously lower... but like I said, I worked out the height of the monitors and consoles and everything else based on the height of the seat. The seat determines my eye level and my arm position and thus everything is based off of that position. You're doing it the other way around. Do you already have a table for your monitors then? I had to make my own monitor "table" because I needed to mount a touchscreen in the most ergonomic position possible...


Yes, I currently have a desk but am considering replacing it, particularly if it'd allow me to use the chair more or less as it sits. Interesting use of a child latch!

What eye height did you use? I just sat in my chair in the garage and measured an eye height of 38"...to place my eyes in the middle of my monitor, I'd need a desk approximately 24" high.

#4373378 - 08/08/17 09:21 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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What does your desk look like? You may be able to use it for now.... like I said, I needed a custom monitor solution because of the arrangement I wanted for my screens.

As for the eye height, I used mine... a lot of sitting down in the chair, measuring, cutting stuff out, testing, and so on... The nice thing about my setup is that I can raise/lower the main monitor table just by altering the height of 2-4 panels...


- Ice
#4373418 - 08/09/17 01:49 AM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: - Ice]  
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The desk is that L-shaped oak beastie in the top picture. It's a refugee from a former employer and I'm fairly certain it's an Ikea creation. The struggle I see with using the existing desk with the new seat is that it would either require raising the seat by about 10 inches or lowering the desk by a similar amount. I was looking at temporarily using a coffee table as a monitor stand, but it'd require disassembling the existing setup to get it into the right place. The Ikea desk uses metal legs so lowering them isn't an option without replacing them.

I'd originally thought that I'd use the seat with the existing desk, but I think raising the seat to the required height would be problematic. I'd either have a 10" tall platform supporting the stick and rudders or the seat would get pretty unstable.

Last edited by Spectre-63; 08/09/17 06:29 PM.
#4373544 - 08/09/17 06:44 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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Ice-

do you have any plans for the table or base that you built that you'd be able to share?

Also - what did you build it out of? I used MDF for the base and wasn't happy with it because of how it reacted once I put the screws in.

#4373563 - 08/09/17 08:53 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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Okay, any pics of the seat? I struggle to see why you can't mount it on a frame and get the height you want.

I build out of MDF, but I do not screw MDF-to-MDF. I always have a bit of timber behind each "join," so I screw MDF-to-timber. Here are a few build pics I took and should give you a better idea of how the pit is shaped. You will also see how I have bits of timber throughout the build...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


You're free to copy the idea but I don't really have dimension plans because things are always changing during the build process and so what's on the plans does not always equate to my end setup. Some stuff needs to be added on some places, it needs to be shaved down or taken out on other places.... in my current pit, for example, I only planned to have one layer as the main floor but on testing, I found that my side consoles had too much play, so I added another lower layer with structure supports built in to give the side consoles more rigidity.


- Ice
#4373565 - 08/09/17 09:18 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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Don't even try putting screws into the "end grain" of MDF. Even if you pre-drill, it'll just split. If you have to make a perpendicular joint with MDF, use "L" brackets or Pine to give a proper attachment surface to the joint. You can also use dowels and glue, but I'd still back up that joint with some kind of reinforcement.

g.


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#4373566 - 08/09/17 09:24 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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I don't even trust MDF enough going through it perpendicularly. My screws can go through MDF pretty easily if I'm not careful! smile


- Ice
#4373596 - 08/10/17 12:32 AM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
I don't even trust MDF enough going through it perpendicularly. My screws can go through MDF pretty easily if I'm not careful! smile

Why I use Plywood for everything.. smile

#4373652 - 08/10/17 12:31 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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I didn't like the surface of the plywood.... the smooth surface of the MDF is what I liked. Plus you can't go "end grain" on plywood either, so it's still advised to go Ply-to-timber.


- Ice
#4374297 - 08/14/17 05:32 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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f15sim Offline
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You can use threaded inserts as well - that has the added benefit of being able to take it apart later without damaging the wood. wink

g.


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#4374395 - 08/15/17 03:38 AM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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Also handy for 3D printed parts wink

#4374398 - 08/15/17 04:59 AM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: f15sim]  
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Originally Posted by f15sim
You can use threaded inserts as well - that has the added benefit of being able to take it apart later without damaging the wood. wink

Which one are you talking about f15sim? Since the inserts are in the wood, won't any pressure/torque/etc. still pull on the insert and thus, damage the soft MDF anyway?


- Ice
#4374439 - 08/15/17 01:45 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: Spectre-63]  
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Search Amazon for "threaded insert for wood" and you'll get an idea of what I mean. As long as the hole for the insert is pre-drilled and you set it with glue, it would work well. I wouldn't use them for "end grain" connections though. It's too easy to split the MDF.

They do work very will in end-grain on Plywood though.

One thing to keep in mind - if you like the smooth finish of MDF, you can achieve the same thing with plywood - it just takes some work to get there. (and body filler) biggrin

g.


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#4374468 - 08/15/17 03:15 PM Re: Getting started - need advice from the experienced :) [Re: f15sim]  
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Still don't see how threaded insert will work whether screwing it onto MDF or the timber underneath. I tend to use screws where the threads stop with 1/3rd or so of the screw length remaining and the idea is to go through the MDF and onto the timber underneath and then "pull" the two bits of wood tight together, compressing them together. This reduces/eliminates play between joins where I cannot or do not want to use glue. If the threaded insert is used on the timber underneath, I can kinda see the benefit as I don't thread through the wood each time, but the pull effect will still be there. I guess it'll be less of an issue because the force is spread over a bigger area compared to just using the screw threads alone? I don't think you're suggesting to use the threaded insert on the MDF, right?

Originally Posted by f15sim
you can achieve the same thing with plywood - it just takes some work to get there. (and body filler) biggrin

True. Lots and lots of body filler and sanding.... but MDF is just.... done. My dad used to have a business of building arcade machines and initially built it out of plywood frown


- Ice

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