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#4362081 - 06/05/17 03:06 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: tempusmurphy]  
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#4362089 - 06/05/17 03:46 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: tempusmurphy]  
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So I guess a dynamic campaign is out...

:-|

#4362090 - 06/05/17 03:47 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: xXNightEagleXx]  
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Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx
Originally Posted by Chaos
Why do I even bother...? You guys have made up your mind anyway. I guess I'm just bored :-)



Perhaps you wouldn't be bored at all if DCS offered a full combat experience to play with XD


If it offered a dynamic campaign like Falcon 4.0/BMS, I'd own every single DCS module.

#4362182 - 06/05/17 08:41 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
So I guess a dynamic campaign is out...

I don't think it was ever "in" in the first place. ED was like "Oh, the DC option won in our polls. Meh. Like that's ever going to make us any money. After all, look at what happened to MicroProse after Falcon 4.0!!"


- Ice
#4362206 - 06/05/17 09:32 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: tempusmurphy]  
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So Eagle Dynamics SA is a Swiss branch of the company? Or a completely different entity? That's a bit confusing, I mean why have a separate name in Switzerland if it's the same company? Sorry if it's a silly thing to ask, just curious.

Also while I'm at it, what's the "unique CFD engine" the announcement talks about?

#4362208 - 06/05/17 09:37 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: tempusmurphy]  
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If you havent tried "Mbot dynamic campaign engine", it works quite nice.
It's still not a falcon4 dynamic campaign clone but some sort of DC mechanism(tracking war event, resource management, automatic mission generation) is implemented and it works.
So far, I have flown 7 A-10C sorties without CTD/error.


Im huge Falcon4 fan but I really dont know if DC is everything that keep us entertained.
as I and squadron do enjoy TE flghts in Falcon4 BMS no problem, the real boredom of DCS could be coming from "lack of modern US multirole fighter jet".


of course having falcon4 DC in DCS is way to go but it's not likely to happen in near future.

#4362209 - 06/05/17 09:40 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: tempusmurphy]  
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btw according to people in ED forum, F/A-18C can now be set as "Client" in mission editor which usually means release is gettin really close.

#4362255 - 06/06/17 12:30 AM Re: DCS F18 [Re: nadal]  
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Originally Posted by nadal
btw according to people in ED forum, F/A-18C can now be set as "Client" in mission editor which usually means release is gettin really close.

W O W!! Nice find!!

#4362334 - 06/06/17 01:23 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: nadal]  
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Originally Posted by nadal
btw according to people in ED forum, F/A-18C can now be set as "Client" in mission editor which usually means release is gettin really close.

I've built a lot of missions for our group in the past and you've been able to do that since 1.2 but you can't get in the pit so it's meaningless.

I think that they added it to the mission builder for internal testing because I started seeing that when we first started getting news about the F/A-18C back several years ago.

#4362349 - 06/06/17 02:07 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: tempusmurphy]  
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waiting to see how they'll handle the F-18 + carrier ops
THEN
I might buy it/them

Only module that got me interested on a long time but seeing how they run thing recently I'll wait a bit


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#4362509 - 06/07/17 01:31 AM Re: DCS F18 [Re: nadal]  
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Originally Posted by nadal

Im huge Falcon4 fan but I really dont know if DC is everything that keep us entertained.
as I and squadron do enjoy TE flghts in Falcon4 BMS no problem, the real boredom of DCS could be coming from "lack of modern US multirole fighter jet".


Nah. Dynamic campaign is literally everything. Once you live and breathe Falcon BMS's online dynamic campaign over a real living month, there's no going back. What's the point in flying pre-generated missions that you can memorize, ever again? I don't see any. The visceral thrill of flying in a Falcon theater where you must be on your toes at all time is amazing.

I see no point in memorizing the complexities of a jet, no matter the make in a sim that refuses to honor that knowledge with a campaign worthy replay like Falcon's.

Besides, I can fly the F/18C in Falcon BMS.

DCS needs to get with the program; it is costing them sales by not doing the right thing.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 06/07/17 01:31 AM.
#4362525 - 06/07/17 04:11 AM Re: DCS F18 [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by nadal

Im huge Falcon4 fan but I really dont know if DC is everything that keep us entertained.
as I and squadron do enjoy TE flghts in Falcon4 BMS no problem, the real boredom of DCS could be coming from "lack of modern US multirole fighter jet".


Nah. Dynamic campaign is literally everything. Once you live and breathe Falcon BMS's online dynamic campaign over a real living month, there's no going back. What's the point in flying pre-generated missions that you can memorize, ever again? I don't see any. The visceral thrill of flying in a Falcon theater where you must be on your toes at all time is amazing.

I see no point in memorizing the complexities of a jet, no matter the make in a sim that refuses to honor that knowledge with a campaign worthy replay like Falcon's.

Besides, I can fly the F/18C in Falcon BMS.

DCS needs to get with the program; it is costing them sales by not doing the right thing.


I am wondering how truly dynamic the campaign in Falcon 4 is. Surely after a few runs you will know what each typical scenario will be? Say you have to bomb a bridge. You'll know which few locations the bridges will spawn at? The areas where the air defense may spawn? The same canned voice overs with nothing unique for a unique mission?

I'm wondering because I've never played it.

#4362526 - 06/07/17 04:19 AM Re: DCS F18 [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
[quote=nadal]Nah. Dynamic campaign is literally everything.............

Besides, I can fly the F/18C in Falcon BMS.

The Falcon simulation was actually built as a campaign engine with different F-16 variants to begin with so comparing that to a dissimilar module based simulation isn't really fair in my opinion. And besides, there are actually groups and individuals like Buddyspike and Mbot that have been working on multiplayer campaign environments that are similar to the original Microprose concept. It still has a way to go but if you add the combined arms and multi-role modules it will be far beyond what Microprose ever envisioned when it finally happens.

And you can not fly the F/A-18 anything in BMS. You are simply using the same Block whatever F-16 with a different skin and slightly modified flight models. So saying that you can fly other air frames inside BMS is a really nonsense talking point.

#4362527 - 06/07/17 04:42 AM Re: DCS F18 [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I am wondering how truly dynamic the campaign in Falcon 4 is. Surely after a few runs you will know what each typical scenario will be? Say you have to bomb a bridge. You'll know which few locations the bridges will spawn at? The areas where the air defense may spawn? The same canned voice overs with nothing unique for a unique mission?

I'm wondering because I've never played it.

The original F4 campaign was really remarkable for it's time and it kind of still is. You can move the ground units around and if you are aggressive and know how to work the PAK's efficiently you can create an almost new campaign every time. And say if you move the Northeast Battalion to the West or vice versa, the AI reacts to that, so you can do the exact same campaign over and over again and it will play out a little differently each time you do it. Also, if you know how to set up proper flights, you can learn to win the scenario very quickly even if you are cornered and outnumbered. I know from first hand experience because I ran a squadron and the became part of a big Falcon squadron years ago.

But the graphics are or at least were very outdated in some versions, the terrain was very 2D and the ground units looked like paper dolls. BMS started out as a mod that was installed alongside the original EXE. Some versions still had a lot of the original F4 bugs. Falcon AF was a complete rewrite of the code from Lead Pursuit because they purchased the code from Microprose, rewrote it and was exceptional for MP. BMS was still very glitchy in MP, or at least it was the last few time I played it, because it still used from what I understood to be the same but updated network coding. I saw the same problems with clients disconnecting and blowing up just like the original F4 was the last time I tried it.

Last edited by *Striker*; 08/05/17 03:11 PM. Reason: corrected second paragraph to reflect prior versions to current BMS 4.33 U1
#4362548 - 06/07/17 07:08 AM Re: DCS F18 [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Originally Posted by nadal

Im huge Falcon4 fan but I really dont know if DC is everything that keep us entertained.
as I and squadron do enjoy TE flghts in Falcon4 BMS no problem, the real boredom of DCS could be coming from "lack of modern US multirole fighter jet".


Nah. Dynamic campaign is literally everything. Once you live and breathe Falcon BMS's online dynamic campaign over a real living month, there's no going back. What's the point in flying pre-generated missions that you can memorize, ever again? I don't see any. The visceral thrill of flying in a Falcon theater where you must be on your toes at all time is amazing.

I see no point in memorizing the complexities of a jet, no matter the make in a sim that refuses to honor that knowledge with a campaign worthy replay like Falcon's.

Besides, I can fly the F/18C in Falcon BMS.

DCS needs to get with the program; it is costing them sales by not doing the right thing.


I am wondering how truly dynamic the campaign in Falcon 4 is. Surely after a few runs you will know what each typical scenario will be? Say you have to bomb a bridge. You'll know which few locations the bridges will spawn at? The areas where the air defense may spawn? The same canned voice overs with nothing unique for a unique mission?

I'm wondering because I've never played it.


Nope. Falcon 4's campaign is truly fluid and ever changing. No campaign run is ever the same. Every time you hop in the pit you have no idea what to expect when approaching the FLOT. Granted, mission planning is key, but due to the ever changing fog of war, you can't be quite sure what you'll be up against due to how units move and are re-allocated between sorties.

Now, there is some degree of similarity with starting forces, but that's about it. The beauty of Falcon's campaign engine is it runs in both 2D mode and 3D mode, and they integrate with one another, and if played on a persistent online server, someone can act as AWAC in the 2D sim and guide folks in the 3D sim.

It is hard to describe, you simply need to experience it. It is hands down the greatest campaign engine ever created for a flight sim, with EECH's being second.

Is it perfect? No. That's why the community has spent so many years improving it even further, and adding multiple theaters to the sim (I don't know how many there are now, but I do know the Israeli and Balkans theaters are fantastic). But it is the best that we have.

It is scary as hell flying out over the flot unaware of what you might face, and is the ultimate test of a pilot's aptitude, because so much is happening so quickly, it literally simulates information overload to perfection.

#4362549 - 06/07/17 07:11 AM Re: DCS F18 [Re: *Striker*]  
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Originally Posted by *Striker*

But the graphics are very outdated, the terrain is very 2D and the ground units look like paper dolls. BMS is only a mod that is installed alongside the original EXE, so it still has most of the original F4 bugs with a few exceptions. Falcon AF was a complete rewrite of the code from Lead Pursuit because they purchased the code from Microprose, rewrote it and was exceptional for MP. BMS is still very glitchy in MP, or at least it was the last time I played it, because it still uses from what I understand the same but updated network coding. I saw the same problems with clients disconnecting and blowing up just like the original F4 was the last time I tried it.


Have you played Falcon BMS 4.33? I beg to differ. The graphics are outstanding, especially considering what it is, and the replayability is unmatched in the jet sim genre.

#4362591 - 06/07/17 02:43 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Have you played Falcon BMS 4.33? I beg to differ. The graphics are outstanding, especially considering what it is, and the replayability is unmatched in the jet sim genre.

Yes I have. I loaded it back awhile ago (original 4.33 release only and not latest version) to just see what all the buzz was about. It was still the same flat boring graphics that it was years ago. I agree that the realism is excellent though but it's still the same Falcon 4.0 that I remember. Red Viper, Open Falcon, Free Falcon, BMS, these are all just different iterations of the same idea and some of the same people from what I understand. They were all mods for F4 that added some features and did some tweaking to what code they could but you still had to use the original disc to install it. It still had a lot of the same bugs that it always did. So don't make it out to be some sort of "latest and greatest" simulation thingy.

Fly it if you like, that's your choice. But I know for a fact that when the F/A-18C comes out for DCS, a huge number of people from BMS will abandon it for DCS World. A lot of people I knew from years ago went to F4 when Janes died out because they were craving the multi role. And they'll jump on carrier ops when it's out and leave BMS in the dust. And I personally have absolutely no desire to go back to that.

Last edited by *Striker*; 08/05/17 03:16 PM. Reason: I removed the "Nothing being done to core" and updated to "prior releases".
#4362608 - 06/07/17 06:07 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: tempusmurphy]  
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At least the airports have working ATC, the AI are usually no rolly polly that can't fly sh!t, the campaign engine generates mission for me or i can handle my
own squadron, move the ground units if i want to, fly in different theatres and have the feeling of being an armchair pilot in a big, big war.
Designing MP missions in the campaign for 4 - 16 pilots takes less than one hour ...

Can't imagine how many hours it would take me to create one of my campaign missions in DCS ... just to see my system come to a stop with that
many units. But you are correct, the graphics are great - i mean, once they fix the MSAA dilemma with deferred shading.
But it is still "early access alpha", so no haste, take your time.

#4362610 - 06/07/17 06:28 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: *Striker*]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Nah. Dynamic campaign is literally everything. Once you live and breathe Falcon BMS's online dynamic campaign over a real living month, there's no going back. What's the point in flying pre-generated missions that you can memorize, ever again? I don't see any. The visceral thrill of flying in a Falcon theater where you must be on your toes at all time is amazing.

While I agree with you there, there is still some value of scripted, repeatable missions --- training.

Once you've got a good level of skill and want to fly with the "training wheels" off, that's when a DC comes in. Sure, scripted missions can still work if it has enough randomness and triggers scripted in, but that's really too much work for something that can come "automatically" with a DC.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I am wondering how truly dynamic the campaign in Falcon 4 is. Surely after a few runs you will know what each typical scenario will be? Say you have to bomb a bridge. You'll know which few locations the bridges will spawn at? The areas where the air defense may spawn? The same canned voice overs with nothing unique for a unique mission?

I'm wondering because I've never played it.

You have the ENTIRE Korea map. You play as a fighter pilot for the South Korean side. There's about 20 airbases to choose from in South Korea. Let's say you fly the same campaign 20 times, each time from a different airbase. Do you really think you'll be bombing the same bridge 20x over? Do you really think you'll be flying over the same air defenses? In one campaign run, the AI aircraft might manage to take out a bunch of SAM radars and open up a clear corridor into enemy territory. In another campaign run, it might be YOUR FLIGHT that is tasked to take out those SAM radars. In another campaign run, the AI flight may be jumped by an enemy flight and fail to tak eout the SAM radars.

To be fair, some people who've been playing for ages have a general idea of how a campaign would play out.... just have a read of the latest posts in the Falcon sub-forum here. However, even with that knowledge, you'll still be flying different flights even if it is for the same goal. For instance, in one campaign run, you may be flying as the STRIKE package of a multi-flight group. You can save the campaign before you fly that mission, then fly the mission again, but this time as SEAD package. Fly the mission again but this time as the ESCORT flight.

Take those concepts and realize that the standard Korean map has three campaigns. Then there are other maps each with at least one or two campaigns each.... Better yet, give Falcon a try.


Originally Posted by *Striker*
but if you add the combined arms and multi-role modules it will be far beyond what Microprose ever envisioned when it finally happens.

Can we stop living in the far future please? Have you seen the state of Combined Arms? How many multi-role modules do we have now? How long do you think before "it" finally happens?

Originally Posted by *Striker*
And you can not fly the F/A-18 anything in BMS. You are simply using the same Block whatever F-16 with a different skin and slightly modified flight models. So saying that you can fly other air frames inside BMS is a really nonsense talking point.

Hahahahahahahahaha.... I dare you to go to the BMS forums and make this point again and see how long you last. The avionics may be tweaked/modded F-16, sure, but explain to me how the F/A-18 in BMS is an "F-16 with a different skin"?

Originally Posted by *Striker*
But the graphics are very outdated, the terrain is very 2D and the ground units look like paper dolls.

Yeah, we really don't play BMS because of the graphics.... most of the time, we're too busy maintaining SA and blowing stuff up while trying to keep ourselves from getting blown up. You know, proper COMBAT stuff...

Originally Posted by *Striker*
BMS is only a mod that is installed alongside the original EXE

Wrong. Anyone who has installed BMS 4.33 will know why this is wrong.

Originally Posted by *Striker*
BMS is still very glitchy in MP, or at least it was the last time I played it, because it still uses from what I understand the same but updated network coding. I saw the same problems with clients disconnecting and blowing up just like the original F4 was the last time I tried it.

Ah yes. The glitchy MP code only allows 32+ players in a virtual squadron's open flight night. The glitchy MP code also means things like Falcon Online cannot possibly be success stories. Your statement above just shows that you KNOW NOTHING about MP in Falcon BMS.

Originally Posted by *Striker*
Yes I have. I loaded it back awhile ago to just see what all the buzz was about. It's still the same flat boring graphics that it was years ago.

**cough!**Israel Theatre**cough!**
**cough!**Polak Tiles**cough!**
Sorry, you were saying something about flat boring graphics? You may be confusing a COMBAT flight simulator and a pretty wallpaper generator featuring combat aircraft....

Originally Posted by *Striker*
I agree that the realism is excellent though but it's still the same Falcon 4.0 that I remember. Red Viper, Open Falcon, Free Falcon, BMS, these are all just different iterations of the same idea and some of the same people from what I understand. It's a mod for F4 that adds some features and does some tweaking to what code they can but you still have to use the original disc to install it. Nothing is being done to the core part of the sim so it still has most of the same bugs that it always did. So don't make it out to be some sort of "latest and greatest" simulation thingy.

Hahahahaha!!! And DCS is just basically Flanker 2.0 or LOMAC. What kind of messed up logic are you trying here?
Full 6DoF clickable cockpit? Yeah, nothing has been done to the code. Buddy lasing? Sure, yeah, it's still F4.
As for having to use the original disc, again, you're doing a great impression of Jon Snow here...

Please do state some of the bugs "that always existed" that the appropriate bug spray may be applied.

Originally Posted by *Striker*
Fly it if you like, that's your choice. But I know for a fact that when the F/A-18C comes out for DCS, a huge number of people from BMS will abandon it for DCS World.

That remains to be seen. Some people will try out the F/A-18C, sure. As to how many will stay after the initial honeymoon period is over, well, that remains to be seen. Again, can we please stop living in the far future?

Originally Posted by *Striker*
A lot of people I knew from years ago went to F4 when Janes died out because they were craving the multi role. And they'll jump on carrier ops when it's out and leave BMS in the dust. And I personally have absolutely no desire to go back to that.

See, the thing is, what use is carrier ops in the current sterile world of DCS? Sure, it'll be fun doing carrier traps in modern graphics. Sure, it'll be great learning the F/A-18's systems.... but without a living theatre to play in... what happens when you want the training wheels to come off?

Don't get me wrong... I'm one of those that will most likely be re-installing DCS the moment I can fly the F-14 or the F-18 and I know I will be having fun with those airframes. I'm quite confident that unless ED has been pranking us for the last 5+ years, BMS has nothing to worry about with "being left in the dust." Simply put, even with just one aircraft in BMS and outdated graphics, DCS has a LOT of catching up to do.

Unless you like pretty wallpaper screenshots, then DCS wins hands down.


- Ice
#4362627 - 06/07/17 07:58 PM Re: DCS F18 [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

wallpaper generator


Not a chance I am wading in to this one, you know which side of that fence I am on anyway.

But this is an instant classic Ice. Made me lolz


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
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