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#4342714 - 03/08/17 02:25 AM Of what use is roll rate?  
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astra Offline
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For example: The Focke Wulf 190 was historically lauded for having a very high rate of roll, especially at speed. There's that quote from the Boscombe Down test pilots: something about how the FW pilot was asked if he was performing snap rolls, but in fact he was just doing regular aileron rolls.

However, short of a flat scissors, I can't figure out exactly what benefit a high rate of roll confers. It lets you re-orient your lift vector faster.... what can you do with that? Suppose you're merging head-on, co-E with a contemporary Spitfire, or a Yak. By my estimation the FW has two advantages: top speed and rate of roll. How does the FW pilot convert that to a victory?

Last edited by astra; 03/08/17 02:27 AM.
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#4342722 - 03/08/17 03:43 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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You can time your entry into a bandit's TC better that way.
You can perform defensive maneuvers better.
You can counter defensive maneuvers better.


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#4342763 - 03/08/17 12:15 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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On a one vs one scenario, bar the scissors as you said, it has very little effect.

However, we mostly have a wrong vision of what a massive dogfight involving non aces real pilots was. Their first goal was not to die, not killing the ennemy. With that main goal in mind, one understands that any advantage in avoiding ennemy fire has a great importance.
If, like the FW in late 1941 up to 1943, the swift roll is combined with a speed advantage (evade first shot, deny any later one) and good radio coordination, and you fight over your own territory without being outnumbered locally, you're in the good ride.

Last edited by rollnloop.; 03/08/17 12:16 PM.
#4342829 - 03/08/17 04:48 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Speaking specifically about the 190, in battle the superior roll rate allowed the German pilot a defensive advantage when performing a split-S. The higher the speed, the more advantage he could gain with this maneuver, especially against the Spitfire. Against the Thunderbolt it was far less effective.

#4342918 - 03/08/17 09:30 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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astra Offline
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You can time your entry into a bandit's TC better that way.


This seems to make sense, but can you elaborate on turn circle entry a little?

#4342932 - 03/08/17 09:59 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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You can have your lift vector pointed in the right direction before the other guy, or, you get the extra bit of time to fool him or potentially execute a slightly more complex maneuver. The point is that almost everything that saves you some time adds options.


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#4343253 - 03/09/17 10:07 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Specifically with the FW 190 and at speed of min 400 to 500Km/h, I would use the high roll rate in defensive maneuvers. While being jumped from my 6 o'clock, I will perform a quick clock wise roll and come out of it after a 3/4 of a rotation to make a swift left turn. But without pulling too much G, I will right away do the exact same action in the opposite direction while maintaining my altitude.

Most followers will try to copy you but with a slower roll rate, they will almost always be a bit late on you. Because you do not pull on that turn too tight before reversing it, you will maintain a good top speed. If your opponent pulls too hard on his turns, he will deplete himself of a lot of speed and while you are doing theses repetitive rolls followed by light turns, you become a very hard target for him to keep in his sight.

Remember that agility and maneuverability is not all about the capability to maintain a very tight turn for ever like with Zero, Hurricane or other stall turner. The FW is very agile and quick to change direction specifically because of his super fast roll rate at high speed. But if you maintain a tight turn for too long, you loose both roll rate and speed. (then you are screwed)

Chevy


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#4343424 - 03/10/17 03:27 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Snap shots are also easier while attacking. Agility is great. but it is hard to describe... Better felt behind the stick. or for sim pilots (v)stick;p

#4345584 - 03/20/17 01:49 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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If you have the book Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering by Shaw, there is a great excerpt of a P-47 getting bounced by a Spitfire as was common in the good old days of flying.

The only advantage the Jug guy had, he said, was roll. So the Jug rolled left, and the Spit rolled left. As the Spit was pulling lead for the shot, the Jug driver suddenly rolled right. The Spit followed. The continued on back and forth. Each time the Jug reversed, the Spit was just a little slower and was starting to get out of sync. Eventually, the Spit got, well, spit out and the Jug driver could redefine the fight in some other way.

So that's the advantage of roll in air combat. Much like any sport where "blockers" or interceptors are involved, the ability to make a move suddenly can offer some advantage. It's no silver bullet, but nothing is. You can squander any advantage your plane has if you use it improperly.

#4345912 - 03/21/17 06:48 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Deacon211]  
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Originally Posted by Deacon211
..flat scissors..

if the spit is in his deep six probably his only option. but i say the jug (or better use the FW190) already screwed up big time. when i'm flying it is the last thing i want.
if there's still some distance between them a inverted split-s would be better. after this use roll rate to do vertical scissors. if the spit doesn't come down it's then a top speed race. (or other factors come into play)

#4346273 - 03/23/17 01:09 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Schwalbe]  
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Originally Posted by Schwalbe
Originally Posted by Deacon211
..flat scissors..

if the spit is in his deep six probably his only option. but i say the jug (or better use the FW190) already screwed up big time. when i'm flying it is the last thing i want.
if there's still some distance between them a inverted split-s would be better. after this use roll rate to do vertical scissors. if the spit doesn't come down it's then a top speed race. (or other factors come into play)


I don't see where I said "Flat Scissors" in this thread, so please don't misquote me.

However, while this could be considered a flat scissors, my impression reading this was that this was a higher speed guns weave a little different than a classic scissors. I recall the F-16 used to use a similar technique.

As to the preference for the tactic, it has been awhile, but this was the endgame after quite a bit of maneuvering. Also, the point of the game was to fight, which encouraged some different tactics than he might have used if he were actually trying to kill the Spit. This was play.

#4346325 - 03/23/17 03:41 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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ok yes, i find it funny that u consider such a simple maneuver a big deal and used so many words plus quoting from one of the common classics just to descibe it. For someone that's done a lotta combat sims, it is a bit ... bizzarre. but apparently this hurts ur feelings and u dont like that. Yet ive no intention of snowballing this to a pissing contest. so goodbye.

#4346442 - 03/24/17 01:19 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Originally Posted by Schwalbe
ok yes, i find it funny that u consider such a simple maneuver a big deal and used so many words plus quoting from one of the common classics just to descibe it. For someone that's done a lotta combat sims, it is a bit ... bizzarre. but apparently this hurts ur feelings and u dont like that. Yet ive no intention of snowballing this to a pissing contest. so goodbye.


I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this. Don't quote someone and change their quote. Period.

Especially incorrectly, as I was not describing a flat scissors.

I'm glad you've flown a lot of combat sims. Those who know me around here know my background, which is neither here nor there in the context of this discussion.


To the OP:

The point of paraphrasing the maneuver is a demonstration of the value of being agile. To expound, the Jug pilot stayed in the fight for the fun of it. He didn't use the Jug to its full tactical advantage and stuck around to "mix it up". As previously stated, it's been awhile since I read the quote, but the Jug was fully out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas at the point of the author's quote.

He was not, from my memory, in a flat scissors primarily because he no longer was capable of forcing the Spit to overshoot in the horizontal. This was part of his dilemma. The only virtue of the Jug he had to exploit was its superior roll rate. By doing so, he managed to force the Spit out of phase, long enough to redefine the fight. I confess I don't recall where the fight went from there but if nothing else, he substantially delayed the Spit's time to kill.

Incidentally when fighting 1v1 similar, as with a student, mental agility can often provide a similar advantage. The more experienced pilot will generally win not only because he may choose the better maneuver, but because he can choose it faster. This is the famous OODA Loop.

#4346470 - 03/24/17 07:31 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Deacon211]  
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Originally Posted by Deacon211
as I was not describing a flat scissors


well, that is not good enough. instead of seeing what this is really about u chose to stick to that gibberish of a post of yours above this one. so no more goodbye, and pissing contest here we go. to start:

what do you think what you described is. i'm not asking Shaw what he wrote. but what U wrote.

#4346494 - 03/24/17 12:22 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Schwalbe]  
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Originally Posted by Schwalbe


...u chose to stick to that gibberish of a post of yours above this one. so no more goodbye, and pissing contest here we go. to start:



I don't think I've ever seen Deacon post gibberish, certainly not in this thread. I think the OP was looking for a little help, not pointless bickering. Can we stick to that?

#4346542 - 03/24/17 03:14 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Andy,

Great to see you back!

You are right of course and I apologize for letting this one get into a Luf.

#4346647 - 03/24/17 08:25 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Deacon211]  
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oh great, let's divert to saying hello to mod friends, instead of arguing with reason, eh?

let's see:
Originally Posted by Deacon211

...higher speed guns weave... I recall the F-16 used to use a similar technique.

find a maneuver with this name.
why not call it... low speed missiles pancakes? want me to describe it?

what's so specific about the f-16 that only it can use it. also, it "used" to use it, what stopped the f-16 from using it now?

what???

Quote
As to the preference for the tactic, it has been awhile, but this was the endgame after quite a bit of maneuvering. Also, the point of the game was to fight, which encouraged some different tactics than he might have used if he were actually trying to kill the Spit. This was play.

totally irrelevant.


let's look at your orig. post:
Quote
So the Jug rolled left, and the Spit rolled left. As the Spit was pulling lead for the shot, the Jug driver suddenly rolled right. The Spit followed. The continued on back and forth. Each time the Jug reversed, the Spit was just a little slower and was starting to get out of sync. Eventually, the Spit got, well, spit out

according to your description, how exactly did the spit end up in front?


now here's what's in the book:

"We were at 5,000 feet, the Spitfire skidding around hard and coming in on
my tail. No use turning; he'd whip right inside me as if I were a truck loaded
with cement, and snap out in firing position. Well, I had a few tricks, too. The
P-47 was faster, and I threw the ship into a roll. Right here I had him. The Jug
could outroll any plane in the air, bar none. With my speed, roll was my only
advantage, and I made full use of the manner in which the Thunderbolt could
whirl. I kicked the Jug into a wicked left roll, horizon spinning crazily, once,
twice, into a third. As he turned to the left to follow, I tramped down on the
right rudder, banged the stick over to the right. Around and around we went,
left, right, left, right. I could whip through better than two rolls before the
Spitfire even completed his first. And this killed his ability to turn inside me.
I just refused to turn. Every time he tried to follow me in a roll, I flashed away
to the opposite side, opening the gap between our two planes.
Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air,
trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt
howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow—and I was a
long way ahead of him by now—when I j erked back on the stick and threw the
Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climb, the British ship had the
advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter
that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the
Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt
hammering around. And that was it—for in the next few moments the
Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slower-climbing Thunderbolt
rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit."


the Jug's end game move was a vertical reversal after some boom and zoom.


-> You butchered the book. Rewrote it and made it to a flat scissors fight. Then you failed to understand what you wrote yourself.

#4361595 - 06/02/17 02:19 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Ahem, the point of asking why a faster roll rate is useful is being lost; simply, it allows you to change direction quicker. An aircraft with a slow rate of roll cannot hope to shift it's heading as quick, which allows an opponent to either evade or come back around for another shooting pass. German pilots found that a good pilot in a Rata, who understood how to use roll rate, in 1941 was a more dangerous opponent than a pilot in a faster LaGG, who tended to use up a lot more sky to turn. Forget using modern dogfighting phrases when describing WW 2 dogfighting. A pilot of the time wouldn't have understood what you were saying but he would have understood turn rate, turn radius, roll rate, zoom climb, climb rate. In a nut shell, a fast roll rate allows the pilot to get in or out of a situation if he cant dive or climb away from trouble. Bear in mind that reversing a turn in a dogfight is almost guaranteed death, but a fast roll rate, as allude to by the P47 pilot, allows you to get away with it, as the rate at which you cross the enemy's heading is too fast for him to bear.

Jodel 112

#4364931 - 06/20/17 01:02 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: JODEL112]  
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Originally Posted by JODEL112
Forget using modern dogfighting phrases when describing WW 2 dogfighting. A pilot of the time wouldn't have understood what you were saying but he would have understood turn rate, turn radius, roll rate, zoom climb, climb rate. In a nut shell, a fast roll rate allows the pilot to get in or out of a situation if he cant dive or climb away from trouble. Bear in mind that reversing a turn in a dogfight is almost guaranteed death, but a fast roll rate, as allude to by the P47 pilot, allows you to get away with it, as the rate at which you cross the enemy's heading is too fast for him to bear.


as i was saying originally, out of plane maneuvers like these are always last ditch maneuvers, it means the enemy is already deep in my six. otherwise, if i can out run him, either straight, dive or climb, i will just out run him. that is why top speed matters a lot in guns only fights and not just a number on paper. even if i can't, heading straight with a slight 0G nose over and communicating with wingmen to "delouse" provides better results for the whole team. in fact in the example above the spit could've still snapshot him. it's just the jug is a friend that doesn't have a swastika or rising sun on its tail so squeezing the trigger is outta the question.

point is i tend to favor roll rates in offensive maneuvers more, rather than defensive - the aircraft is very responsive and "tight" to pilot controls, it makes an excellent attacking platform, especially for energy and BnZ tactics where the time window is extremely short.

now, if i'm on a mud mover or just an entirely inferior plane, that is another matter.

Last edited by Schwalbe; 06/20/17 01:04 AM.
#4365411 - 06/22/17 07:58 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Roll rate can be used defensively to very good effect - change your defense to an offense

assuming we're talking about ww2 fighters here, let's say you're being followed and shot at from a fair distance away. if you have high roll rate, you can roll off and begin a shallow bank, putting your opponent into a lead situation (he will be closing distance). you roll again to the opposite side and do the same thing. you're creating a scissors here, but because your roll rate is so good, you can do it without pulling any g's which keeps your energy high.

when your opponent gets too far into the lead chase, he will start pulling heavy g's each time you change direction. he will be bleeding energy like crazy. once he has gotten close enough for comfort, you roll into him one last time and lead him vertical, without pulling many g's yourself.

most people fall for this and as long as your aircraft has a high roll rate, what ends up happening is you both end up in an ultra low energy state with the noses pointed up, but your opponent will stall out first. you just push the nose down or roll inverted and dive into him and shoot him up.

if you had a slow roll rate you'd end up having to keep your maneuvers limited to simple banks - example, flying an a6m zero at high speed. About the only thing you can do in that plane to change bank angle or direction at high speed is pull back on the stick.

of course if your opponent is smart and sticks with a lag pursuit you may have to try a different tactic. i just mention this one because it works against most people - it's the carrot on the stick effect.

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