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#4363462 - 06/12/17 05:50 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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And now, the rest of the (OP) story:

https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/arti...gt-Deutschland-die-Atombomben-Frage.html

I'll recap the gist of the article in English

- The German Luftwaffe needs to replace its aging Tornado fleet (and only! the Tornadoes) by 2035, Spain needs to replace its F-18s within a similar timeframe.
- Airbus is developing the Future Combat Defense System (https://www.aerosociety.com/news/airbus-reveals-tornado-successor-concept-for-2040s/) with which the company hopes to become the "Lockheed-Martin" of Europe.
- Problems:
a) UK and other European countries (Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, possibly Spain) have already decided on the F-35, France will stick with the Rafale, so not enough potential development partners left
b) the future Tornado replacement needs to be capable of carrying nuclear weapons, for which it needs to be certified (which the F-35 is). In order to receive that certificate, the United States would be eligible to get every single piece of data. Naturally, Airbus does not want to share its design secrets with the US (and therefore Lockheed/ Boeing/ GE etc.). That's the reason the Luftwaffe's Typhoons are not "capable" of carrying nuclear bombs. Keyword: nuclear sharing. So either the FCDS "earmarked" for Germany will not be certified to carry nuclear weapons, or Airbus would need to share secret data with the US, or Germany does indeed develop its own nuclear arsenal. Or the Luftwaffe picks a US design.

My own (highly inefficient and very expensive) advice would be for the Luftwaffe and the US Navy to co-fund the (scrapped) naval variant of the F-22....because it looks like the love child of the Raptor and a Tomcat! smile


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#4363463 - 06/12/17 05:53 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Great post Jayhawk and your joke at the end was a good one. smile


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#4363716 - 06/13/17 08:18 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: Jayhawk]  
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/09/politics/f-35-grounded-oxygen-problems/index.html

Germany better hold off with a purchase for a while, even though the jet's performance is literally "breathtaking".

Face it, this thing is still in "beta", or rather, "early access". No one here knows anything more than LM and the respective nations involved with the program want you to know.

They want your tax *insert relevant currency here*, so they want you to like the F-35. How it will perform in the end, we'll see eventually. Let it fly a couple of combat missions. Let the military work out the kinks. Quoting PR/marketing-approved performance data sheets as if they were Gospel is extremely silly.




So has all USN Hornets (including Super Hornets) as well as the USN T-45's Goshawk.
With the Hornet/Super Hornet the problem is even worse since it not only affects the pilot's/crewmen oxygen supply but also suffers from cabin decompression, like you can read here:
https://theaviationist.com/2017/03/...rivation-and-cabin-decompression-issues/

Does this means that the Hornet/Super Hornet is also a "beta aircraft"?? That no-one or no country should buy Hornets?

#4363724 - 06/13/17 09:06 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m

You're loosing the arguments and it shows...


LoL, you can't even prove your points or show evidence backing up your claims and posts.

For example you failed to indicate what is that USN long range fighter that the US Navy wants and supposedly will acquire in the place of the F-35C.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m

The absurdness of your writings mount with each post. For example, you're still rambling on about the Super Hornet. Examples:


Absurdness of my writings?? LoL, ever considered buying a mirror for yourself? rolleyes


Originally Posted by Flogger23m

Problem:
The USN is looking for something with more range than the Super Hornet and F-35C.


And you have the nerve to call my writings absurd?? Really??
Again what is this something with more range than the Super Hornet and F-35C?? What's the name of this something?? rolleyes
All I can hear here are crickets in the background with an occasional rant from you (Flogger23m) that the US Navy wants something other than the F-35C.

For example read here and amuse yourself:
http://www.newsweek.com/us-navy-purchase-most-expensive-fighter-jet-trump-581560

So no, your wet dreams that the US Navy won't buy the F-35C won't happen. Sorry...


Originally Posted by Flogger23m

ricnunes solution:
F*ck you USN, you can refuel mid air. Don't you know that?


Now who's loosing arguments. At least I post facts not some childish rant.

BTW, did you know that air refueling is organic to the US Navy, no??

Are you suggesting that your "wet dream super range mythical future US Navy fighter" wouldn't need air refueling?? LoL, you are even more clueless or even more delusional than I initially thought.

Ever heard about the MQ-25 Stingray?? One of the current and among the most important US Navy aircraft programs which is an UAV designed to fill in the US Navy Air Tanking Roles.

Here inform yourself first before posting nonsense:
https://news.usni.org/2016/07/15/official-mq-25a-stingray-title-navys-first-carrier-uav


Originally Posted by Flogger23m

Problem:
Israel is looking into drop tanks to extend the range of the F-35A.

ricnunes solution:
The F-35A has more range than the F-16. F*ck you IAF, learn how to refuel mid air.

Problem:
F-35's internal weapon bays are limited. Majority of missions by the USN will require external stores, negating the low RCS aspects.

ricnunes solution:
F*ck you USN. I literally have no counter point to that. But f*ck you anyways. Is that directed at ricnunes ? It seems to read that way.


More nonsense. Is Israel actually developing drop tanks for the F-35? One thing is initial plans other completely different thing is what will end up being developed.
What F-35 narrow-minded critics such as yourself seem to forget is that things DO EVOLVE and change, specially regarding a ground-breaking next-gen fighter aircraft like the F-35 or resuming the future or air combat.



Originally Posted by Flogger23m

Then you bring up the "Join Strike Missile"....


As opposed to the nonsenses that you posted about the "imaginary future long range US Navy fighter which will send the F-35C to oblivion" the JSM is actually IN DEVELOPMENT (and no my CAPS aren't because I lost an argument but because you seem to have lost your ability to READ keypoints and important information).
JSM is even being developed by 2 (two) nations as we speak, Norway and Australia.
Here amuse yourself:
http://www.baesystems.com/en-aus/article/bae-systems-australia-technology-in-joint-strike-missile

Where's your "imaginary future long range US Navy fighter which will send the F-35C to oblivion", by the way?? rolleyes


Originally Posted by Flogger23m

Fact is, when talking about the USN, they want a full size fighter. Not another small size. They're eyeing a spiritual successor to the F-14 and F-15. They already received three light weight designs in a row. They're buying F-35Cs to hold them over as they retire the very old Hornets. They only ordered a small number of F-35Cs (less than 300 planned). They're running a program for a new fighter to replace the Super Hornet. Unless they loose political funding (which is very likely), they plan to buy more of those than F-35s. They know what they want and will design an air frame around their requirements. Make no mistake, they're looking for something with a larger internal payload capacity and a longer range than their current options (Super Hornet / F-35C).


The fact is the US Navy will acquire the F-35C. Everything else is speculation and even nonsense, that's the fact!

What's the name of that "imaginary future long range US Navy fighter which will send the F-35C to oblivion" of yours?? Still waiting for it...

Oh and if you want to speak about the F-35C numbers don't forget the US Marines they will order 80 F-35Cs plus the order of 260 for the USN. That's 340 F-35Cs. For example there are currently 500 Super Hornets manufactured, including the ones exported to Australia. Since the F-35C is vastly superior to the Super Hornet and 340 F-35C will do much more than less than 500 Super Hornets, so I fail you see your F-35C low numbers argument.

How many of your "imaginary future long range US Navy fighter which will send the F-35C to oblivion" will US Navy order, genius??
Still waiting for some evidence about your "imaginary future long range US Navy fighter which will send the F-35C to oblivion" and what will be its name! Perhaps this aircraft of yours is sooooo Stealth that it doesn't even and ever exists rolleyes

#4380140 - 09/18/17 06:53 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Resurrecting this old thread with news about F-35 purchases. Canada famously (infamously?) decided to not buy the F-35 while saying they were going to have a fair and open competition (without one of the main contenders being permitted to participate).

That was taking so long that they announced they were going to buy 18 Super Hornets as an interim solution. Well, the pricing came in for that 18-unit buy, and it's over half as much as the 65 F-35s they were quoted - $6.4 billion for the Super Hornets vs.$9 billion for 65 F-35s. The Danish government just did an analysis showing that they could get 27 F-35s for $3.7 billion.

So the F-35 was so horribly over priced that they couldn't buy it, but it's OK to pay more for a previous generation Super Hornet. And now that deal has an issue because Boeing, makers of the Super Hornet, sued Bombardier and if they win, it will impact Canada's aircraft industry significantly, so Canadians may not want to buy anything from Boeing at this point. What a mess.

Here's an article that talks a little about it (it has some political references, but is mostly talking about the decision-making in particular):

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/op...ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&


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#4380162 - 09/18/17 08:51 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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2 weeks ago I was at the 40th Sanicole International Airshow, they were banging on about Belgium going for the F35, they had narrowed the selection down to either the Eurofighter Typhoon or the F35, earlier this year they had just dropped the Rafale out of the running.


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#4380202 - 09/19/17 08:46 AM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Germany must save their money and invest in drones.

#4380204 - 09/19/17 09:27 AM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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What's the point in drones, if we can't get them certified for general airspace. Without that certification you can't even start them. The US simply locks down airspace during launches until the Predators have reached an altitude where no interference with civilian airliners can be expected. Apparently that's a no go for European airspace as the Eurohawk procurement disaster illustrated.

#4380339 - 09/19/17 09:52 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The days of the manned fighter are counted. I am sure that for military applications drones will enjoy some licenses.

#4394874 - 12/14/17 10:43 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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GERMANY PREFERS EUROFIGHTER OVER F-35 TO REPLACE ITS FLEET OF TORNADO FIGHTER BOMBERS


Quote
According Reuters the German Defense Ministry said in a letter to a lawmaker that the Eurofighter is the preferred choice to replace the Tornado fighter-bomber.

The ministry’s position appears to contradict that of the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) which had indicated that its preference is the Lockheed Martin F-35, according to past media reports.

In fact a Luftwaffe official said at the International Fighter Conference on Nov. 8, 2017 that “The Tornado replacement needs to be fifth-generation aircraft that can be detected as late as possible, if at all. It must be able to identify targets from a long way off and to target them as soon as possible. The German Ministry of Defence [MoD] is looking at several aircraft today, including the F-35 – it is commercially available already, has been ordered by many nations and is being introduced into service today, and has most of the capabilities required.”


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#4394882 - 12/14/17 11:24 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: Aullido]  
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Originally Posted by Aullido
The days of the manned fighter are counted. I am sure that for military applications drones will enjoy some licenses.


You need powerful onboard AI and/or an instantaneous and countermeasures proof means of remote control, before drone fighters can properly assume every role.

#4394897 - 12/15/17 12:20 AM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted by Arthonon
Resurrecting this old thread with news about F-35 purchases. Canada famously (infamously?) decided to not buy the F-35 while saying they were going to have a fair and open competition (without one of the main contenders being permitted to participate).

That was taking so long that they announced they were going to buy 18 Super Hornets as an interim solution. Well, the pricing came in for that 18-unit buy, and it's over half as much as the 65 F-35s they were quoted - $6.4 billion for the Super Hornets vs.$9 billion for 65 F-35s. The Danish government just did an analysis showing that they could get 27 F-35s for $3.7 billion.

So the F-35 was so horribly over priced that they couldn't buy it, but it's OK to pay more for a previous generation Super Hornet. And now that deal has an issue because Boeing, makers of the Super Hornet, sued Bombardier and if they win, it will impact Canada's aircraft industry significantly, so Canadians may not want to buy anything from Boeing at this point. What a mess.

Here's an article that talks a little about it (it has some political references, but is mostly talking about the decision-making in particular):

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/op...ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&


Indeed. Canada will end up buying from the Europeans due to the current administrations tantrum over the F-35. I can't imagine they will go back to the F-35 after tearing up their previous deal. And now Boeing is out of the question. I can understand that Canada doesn't necessarily need an air force, but they are part of NATO and have requirements to meet if I recall. In which case they do need to maintain at least some planes. I can't imagine they will save much long term by buying a European aircraft, and the lack of compatibility with the US can't be good.

#4394978 - 12/15/17 12:52 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: Crane Hunter]  
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Originally Posted by Crane Hunter
Originally Posted by Aullido
The days of the manned fighter are counted. I am sure that for military applications drones will enjoy some licenses.


You need powerful onboard AI and/or an instantaneous and countermeasures proof means of remote control, before drone fighters can properly assume every role.



Not just fighter aircraft but ground troops as well.


Imagine the political and moral implications when nations start fielding entirely robotic ground forces. It WILL happen. It's just a matter of when.


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#4395243 - 12/17/17 03:26 AM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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When was the last time Canadian aircraft saw service in conflict? serious question.


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#4395254 - 12/17/17 04:53 AM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: Vertigo1]  
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Originally Posted by The_Stupendous_Yappi
When was the last time Canadian aircraft saw service in conflict? serious question.


Syria.

Anyway the problem surrounding the F-35 buy in Canada is that Canadians have a cartoonish level of cheapness as a national trait, combined with no sense of value.

And so buying tired 2nd hand Aussie Hornets is fine with most of the Canadian public as long as it saves a few nickels and dimes.

#4395269 - 12/17/17 07:52 AM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: Vertigo1]  
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Originally Posted by The_Stupendous_Yappi
When was the last time Canadian aircraft saw service in conflict? serious question.


I worked side by side with Canucks in 2015 where we, along with Italy and Denmark brought the fight against daesh in Iraq and Syria.

USAF A-10s and USMC MV-22 Ospreys, Canadian F-18s, Italian Tornados, Danish F-16s.


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#4395276 - 12/17/17 10:56 AM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: Vertigo1]  
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Originally Posted by The_Stupendous_Yappi
When was the last time Canadian aircraft saw service in conflict? serious question.


they did it yesterday, will do it today and tomorrow again, if it is not the F-18 that is deployed it is a P-3 Orion.

you can learn more about their operations here

https://twitter.com/RCAF_ARC

I hope they buy the Rafale - that would be a much more suitable choice for their Aerospace industries in view of what Boeing did to them recently.

#4411707 - 03/20/18 03:03 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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German Air Force Chief fired for supporting F-35

Quote
According Jane’s Gen Müllner’s outspoken public support for the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) as a successor to the German Tornado fleet was pivotal in the decision for his early retirement. “The Luftwaffe considers the F-35’s capability as the benchmark for the selection process for the Tornado replacement, and I think I have expressed myself clearly enough as to what the favourite of the air force is,” Gen Müllner told last November.

Luftwaffe’s Chief active support of the JSF clashes with current Ministry of Defence planning, which prefers a successor solution involving the Eurofighter Typhoon.

As we have previously reported the Luftwaffe has a shortlist of existing platforms to replace its Panavia Tornado fighter bombers from 2025 to 2030 but the service “preferred choice” is the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, a German Air Force official said at the International Fighter Conference on Nov. 8, 2017.

According to the same official in fact, the Lightning II can satisfy most of Germany’s requirements and offer other benefits as well.

“The Tornado replacement needs to be fifth-generation aircraft that can be detected as late as possible, if at all. It must be able to identify targets from a long way off and to target them as soon as possible.

This print is available in multiple sizes from AircraftProfilePrints.com – CLICK HERE TO GET YOURS. F-35A Lightning II 56th OG, 61st FS, LF/12-5050 / 2014
“The German Ministry of Defence [MoD] is looking at several aircraft today, including the F-35 – it is commercially available already, has been ordered by many nations and is being introduced into service today, and has most of the capabilities required.”

Instead in a letter to a Greens lawmaker who had inquired about the deliberations, the German Defense Ministry said the F-35 and Boeing’s F-15 and F/A-18 fighters were secondary options.


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#4602268 - 06/23/22 12:57 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Germany went back and forth on what to buy for 5+ years, now they are rushing to get the F-35 in service...


https://aviationweek.com/shownews/i...martin-sprint-f-35-contract-finalization


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#4602270 - 06/23/22 01:48 PM Re: Germany Thinking of Buying F-35? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Geez, I wonder why the sudden change ?


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