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#4358738 - 05/22/17 05:44 PM VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules  
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You can read about it here but the skinny is that they are going to wait till 2.5 is out and stable.
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=187765

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4358741 - 05/22/17 06:18 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Therefore I have taken the decision to delay release of the P-40F and future VEAO modules until a stable DCS 2.5 has been released. I feel that this is the only way forward and it is not a decision I have thought about lightly.

Finally!! Somebody's coming to their senses. Maybe if more devs follow suit, ED will be under more pressure to release and patch 2.5 sooner rather than later.

Interesting to note that he's willing to offer refunds to the P-40 but not the Hawk.


- Ice
#4358742 - 05/22/17 06:19 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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To quote Pete on our FB page:
"Yes in short, we rely on more outputs from dcs then other developers do, so when something changes for a dcs update it can throw things out of whack, it's something we are battling but it's a fundamental change to approach, it's getting better but not quite there yet.
Pman"

When we coded the Hawk we were one of the first 3rd party developers to be in contract with TFC and the SDK was in its infancy.
Hawk was coded back then for what existed within DCS at that time.
DCS has evolved massively form 1.2.16 to 1.5 to 2.0 and now upcoming 2.1
A lot of code was re-written when we released the EFM.

However; we have to rely on DCS passing the module certain information; mostly atmospheric but there are a few other core systems that DCS communicates back and forward with the module.

I cannot comment on how other 3rd party developers make their aircraft talk to DCS and vice versa and to what level of detail.

Now with our modules so far we have relied on DCS heavily to pass that information across to the module and back again.

Let's say DCS uses parameter X and we are looking for a value of X but suddenly that value is no longer X but Y then some co-dependencies of our systems will fall over and could cause cascading faults, which we have to try and bug hunt.

An example of this is the HSI spinning on start-up in Hawk. One version it was absolutely fine and the next patch it started spinning wildly for no reason on power-up.
It took us a while to figure out that there had actually been a power trip caused by the sim and this is why the HSI spins when the DC bus goes live.
Why does it power trip? Well because Hawk has been coded to schematic level and that's what the real HSI does when a power trip happens.
Why is the sim telling it there is a power trip? We have no idea, still today.
So the easiest answer to that is to remove the power trip function.

Well we shouldn't have to, that's how the real aircraft works but let's suppose that we want to remove it.
There are a ton of dependencies within the AHRS system; navigation, course, heading bug, ILS, VORTAC, Etc. and the code is complicated enough that if we remove the power-trip functionality it could mess up something else entirely so it's a lengthy process to disect.

We're not saying the code is incompatible, we are saying we are experiencing problems that we don't fully understand as to why DCS causes them.
No it shouldn't be like that but the fact of the matter is that it is.

Another example is with P-40 happening right now. We had a fully flyable aircraft as you've seen from Pete and my videos. I could even live stream it right now with the version I have.
The guys did an SDK update last week and now they have no thrust at all.
The throttle moves in animation and the control indicator shows the throttle input moving, but again no thrust.
We've not changed anything. So now the guys are going through each parameter DCS is passing to us to see what's changed and what is causing no thrust.

We can't allow that to happen when it gets in your hands. So we have to code less dependencies on DCS passing the parameters to us.
And therein lies the problem; we code around this for 1.5.6 but what does 2.0 and 2.1 do. Oh look it's fine in one of those versions, but why....

The decision to continue to develop but not release until 2.5 means we are not trying to bug hunt for 4 different versions of DCS but 1 or 2 (release and development) which means these sorts of problems shouldn't crop up and cause similar issues to that Hawk has been having over the years.


https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3144643&postcount=23

#4358754 - 05/22/17 06:50 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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So, how long until ED closes the thread? Can't believe Ells hasn't been banned yet. Glad to finally see a developer calling ED incompetent to their faces. That being said I'm not so sure VEAO is much better in that department.

Also, a refund if you bought the P-40 but no refund for the Hawk? Can't seem to justify that.

#4358756 - 05/22/17 06:57 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Sounds like the core code has gone out of hands.
Spaghetti code as we say in my line of business.

#4358757 - 05/22/17 06:59 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: cdelucia]  
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Originally Posted by cdelucia
So, how long until ED closes the thread?

Already a NDA warning on the thread so we shall see.

#4358761 - 05/22/17 07:23 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Where's the NDA?

So much for DCS being "modular" if one dev integrates their module one way and another dev integrates their module another way..... the comedy just writes itself, really.


- Ice
#4358762 - 05/22/17 07:36 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Where's the NDA?

So much for DCS being "modular" if one dev integrates their module one way and another dev integrates their module another way..... the comedy just writes itself, really.


Quote

It's not my place to comment on the internal structure of VEAO's Coding team.

That being said, any discussion of coding in detail is likely a NDA Violation as well.

The Core Sim Likely Changes faster than the Coders can keep up with, and trying to develop across what's 4 Branches now (REL, OB, OA, Normany Closed ALpha), can cause a head ache as to why a function works in one branch and not another.,

So it's best to pick a single Branch (ie 2.5), and develop for that one, as when 2.5 is released it will eventually take over all branches, and the code base will be the same across REL, OB, OA branches.


https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3144648&postcount=24

Possibly he means this, though I personally didn't think it was any kind of official warning. Emphasis mine.

#4358764 - 05/22/17 07:44 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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It certainly exposes and confirms a few things;

1) ED haven't got a clue what they're doing and don't communicate their changes and intent to their 3rd parties. No shock there, we've talked about it for a long time.

2) ED clearly aren't as far through 2.5 as they like us to believe. The likes of Skate had previously informed us that the main components of the new engine Inc lighting were already in place. If this were the case then surely VEAO would have been given dev builds to integrate their work and would know what the changes are and what would be affected.

3) VEAO couldn't see the issue of attempting to maintain 3 (now 4) dev streams. Quite strange really........everyone else on SimHQ were discussing the problems as as soon as 2.x got split multiple ways. I do recall a discussion with Nate where he insisted it wouldn't cause any problems for ED or 3rd parties.

Overall, its no big shock that VEAO can't afford to haemorrhage funds and resources into an inefficient method of development. I doubt very much that ED can afford it too, however they're blinded by ignorance and military contracts that bankroll the losses and waste of resources in their desktop development and products.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4358767 - 05/22/17 07:52 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Paradaz]  
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The Core Sim Likely Changes faster than the Coders can keep up with

Is it just me, or is this statement the epitome of stupidity?

Originally Posted by Paradaz
they're blinded by ignorance and military contracts that bankroll the losses and waste of resources in their desktop development and products.

Again, I ask --- what recent product(s) do they have that have come from military contracts?


- Ice
#4358769 - 05/22/17 07:55 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Finally. I've put off buying anything for a long time now. And refused to have 3 installs taking up an entire SSD just for a certain aircraft to work.
Hopefully good will come from this.

#4358778 - 05/22/17 08:47 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Again, I ask --- what recent product(s) do they have that have come from military contracts?


I'm not insinuating everything on desktop comes from the commercial/military contracts.....just that their military contracts take precedence, so that resources will always be moved to support those products they are working on at the detriment of the desktop products that a lot of us have already partly funded.

And also that ED cannot possibly make a profit on their desktop products due to the amount of extended development the have to pay for......I mean seriously, development that is multiple years beyond what they ever expected. Another reason why I believe early access funds cash that is already spent......and the vicious cycle continues. They'll never make a profit whilst they stumble from one obstacle to the next.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4358781 - 05/22/17 08:57 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I agree, Daz... however, the point I'm making is while they may have made money from military contracts IN THE PAST, I don't think that is true today and they're having to rely more on their commercial side to keep the company afloat, hence the week-after-week-after-week of sales and bundle promos. I don't think they have any recent work that is derived from a military contract, therefore, they have not had "military funds".


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#4358786 - 05/22/17 09:23 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I would think that we never hear about some of their military products, and there is a good chance they have a steady stream of funds via support contracts that are in place for existing products. I seriously can't see how they'd stay afloat otherwise.


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#4358787 - 05/22/17 09:31 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I disagree...

If they were making other military products which are classified enough that they can't sell them to the public, would their "skill level" not be high enough that they'd know not to do three (or FOUR!) dev branches? Even if they stuck to their current path, wouldn't their "skill level" be high enough that we'd no longer see this "one step forward, two steps back" approach? Would they not have a better handle on the software they are working on? In other words, if they were working on other military products, why are they still bumbling about with regards to their progress in their commercial products?


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#4358789 - 05/22/17 10:04 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Developing an engine that the mil uses for their base for simulations, is where I believe this has gone. I dont see any modules being used by the mil, aside from what we've already seen.

Those royalties may be the only other income.

#4358791 - 05/22/17 10:16 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Are you saying 2.5 is the "engine"? If this were true, then ED would've released 2.5 ages ago as it clearly would've been top priority.


- Ice
#4358799 - 05/22/17 10:59 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Are you saying 2.5 is the "engine"? If this were true, then ED would've released 2.5 ages ago as it clearly would've been top priority.

I'm pretty sure that DCS World is just the launcher. I remember reading about that several years ago. If you remember in 1.0 it would quit from the launcher and then load the map module as a separate system. They changed that in 1.2 so that it no longer loaded as a separate module but the map actually governs the engine if I understand it correctly. T-3, T-4 and T-5 when it's implemented. World 2.1 is capable of handling the different maps and different map environment engines so when they release the Caucuses map which will be T-4 it's just going to go into World 2.1 and they'll start calling it 2.5. But it will essentially be an updated build based on the current 2.0 base. If I'm wrong someone will probably correct me on this but that's what we've been able to discern from reading the posts anyhow.

Last edited by *Striker*; 05/22/17 11:54 PM.
#4358861 - 05/23/17 07:11 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Let's not forget that DCS world 2.0 has been around for many years, long before the 'official' release to Ed's consumers.

ED have had more than 5 years to develop a stable platform in reality.









Obviously the military contracts come 1st before the products syphon down to us consumers at the bottom of the ladder.

ED will tell you that dcs world is completely different to the maps portrayed in the above and circulated around the internet long before the mention of DCS EDGE on the ED forums

If the engine was that unstable, it would open a can of bugs on every milsim contractor using the engine and not just be a hit to 3rd party's such as VEAO. I would think that the bugs VEAO have experienced would all so have been experienced as far back as 2012 and before by any company using the engine.

I wonder why the issues have not been resolved?? which leads me to suspect, there is already a stable version which is being palmed around to anyone in the milsim industry whilst us 'consumers' are experiencing various delays and frustration aimed at the 3rd party developers. VEAO aim to gain military contracts with not only the hawk but other aircraft they intend to develop, ED's main partner 'Belsimtek' are all so in the business of servicing military organisations......Giving the 3rd parties bugged versions of DCS world whilst Belsimtek and others have working versions around since before 2012 means they already have a head start in the military simulation contract world.

The F-18, not far off development.....how much money would a fully functioning f-18 training simulator to the military be worth contract wise in training future pilots without the added costs of fuel and airframe hours? delaying DCS world for a further 12 months would surely be an advantage to ED than it would be to VEAO? Surely the military spec A-10C would have been worth quite a bit of money to ED on release many years ago......doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together here and see it for what it is.




#4359006 - 05/23/17 04:34 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Is it just me, or is this statement the epitome of stupidity?


Is it stupid that internal development code is changing quickly? VEAO could have chosen to do just keep releasing for 1.5.x for example, and update to 2.5 when that comes out.
Their choice is theirs - if you look at that thread, they have another part of their business with P3D and for now they choose to sink their time into that.


Originally Posted by Paradaz
Again, I ask --- what recent product(s) do they have that have come from military contracts?


Who knows? One of the biggest unknowns is what their business is doing outside of DCS. We only have hints: Map-making for professional flight sims, some military flight sim stuff, some collaborations with certain manufacturers.


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#4359008 - 05/23/17 04:43 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
I disagree...

If they were making other military products which are classified enough that they can't sell them to the public, would their "skill level" not be high enough that they'd know not to do three (or FOUR!) dev branches?


Where do you get off mentioning 'skill' here? The whole 'one branch' thing isn't just new, it's not even industry-wide. It is an attempt to build 'best practices' around leveraging common code and services, but it is absolutely not a 'one size fits all' situation. It isn't always appropriate for everything, but there's definitely a benefit to minimizing the number of branches you're working on.

Here's an example: In the phone industry, there's an OS/App branch for each phone. RIM did it, probably every other cellphone manufacturer is doing it (actually, it's even kind of obvious that they are). Those branches die with the phone models. That's not a great way to develop things, but it's how their business model works.

Long term support branches are a staple of the software industry. You can think of 1.5.x as an LTS branch. Almost everything else is a 'feature' branch, being actively developed. Whether that's being managed well internally is not visible to any of us, nor is ED's business.

Quote
Would they not have a better handle on the software they are working on? In other words, if they were working on other military products, why are they still bumbling about with regards to their progress in their commercial products?


They'd have an additional or multiple military (customer) branches, or perhaps completely separate repositories for TBS vs. DCS.


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#4359011 - 05/23/17 05:12 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I want to add something to what was just stated as well. Dmitry Robustov as far as I know works for both ED and Belsimtek and probably others as a developer. He worked on those videos for AVIA but that was back in 2012 for ITEC. But just because they made those videos and terrains doesn't mean that translates to any version of DCS World. As far as anyone knows outside of the companies, these were just done for demonstration purposes to try and get military contracts. It doesn't mean that they've gotten any out of it, just that they've been trying. So saying that DCS 2.0 has been around since then is kind of a big assumption. We don't know that. We only know that they've been working on EDGE since then and that they've been marketing their skills to get military contracts. Same thing with TBS. It's there as a marketing tool but we don't know anything about what they've achieved with it.

#4359022 - 05/23/17 06:32 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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The way I see it, the last 3rd party, as far as development pace is concerned, becomes the first one to make a sensible decision about dealing with multiple builds chaos, even though it will cause some delays. Didn't expect that! I hope something good comes out of it, at least for them, because they do have a couple of warbirds on their schedule I'd love to see built and released in high standard at last.

#4359046 - 05/23/17 08:15 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Is it stupid that internal development code is changing quickly?

If it were just changing quickly, that would be fine. In fact, it would be GREAT as it means the work is getting done quickly. However, when you then insert that into the current picture, where modules get broken, where stuff people have already paid for no longer work like they did in the previous version, how is that a good thing?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Who knows? One of the biggest unknowns is what their business is doing outside of DCS. We only have hints: Map-making for professional flight sims, some military flight sim stuff, some collaborations with certain manufacturers.

Sure, if ED had a totally different business which deals with military stuff which is NOT intended to filter to commercial consumers, then fine. We'll never see any of that. But I was operating under the expectation of something similar to A10C, where something is done for the military and we'll get a de-classified version of it.... if this were the case, then we'd SEE these products.

See, the thing here is that the excuse of "military contracts take priority" is starting to get old and is starting to sound like a convenient cop-out to use whenever they feel like it. "This product is crap!" - oh, they didn't have enough time to test it due to military contracts taking up most of their time. "This product is delayed!!" - they had less time to work on it due to military contracts and hence the delay.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Where do you get off mentioning 'skill' here? The whole 'one branch' thing isn't just new, it's not even industry-wide. It is an attempt to build 'best practices' around leveraging common code and services, but it is absolutely not a 'one size fits all' situation. It isn't always appropriate for everything, but there's definitely a benefit to minimizing the number of branches you're working on.

You lost me there.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
They'd have an additional or multiple military (customer) branches, or perhaps completely separate repositories for TBS vs. DCS.

Evidence of this? Or is this just further speculation?


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#4359049 - 05/23/17 08:18 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Obviously the military contracts come 1st before the products syphon down to us consumers at the bottom of the ladder.

Is exactly what I'm asking. What products have trickled down to us commercial consumers lately?


Originally Posted by Winfield
I wonder why the issues have not been resolved?? which leads me to suspect, there is already a stable version which is being palmed around to anyone in the milsim industry

That wouldn't make sense at all... they have a stable version that they're marketing to the military side but leave the commercial side with a unstable version?
Then again, this three (four?) dev branches doesn't make sense either yet here it is plain to see! So I guess the above example is possible.


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#4359052 - 05/23/17 08:35 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
If it were just changing quickly, that would be fine. In fact, it would be GREAT as it means the work is getting done quickly. However, when you then insert that into the current picture, where modules get broken, where stuff people have already paid for no longer work like they did in the previous version, how is that a good thing?


Because you have to break some eggs to make an omelet. It would be great if the code/API was super stable, but it isn't there yet. Yep, you're still in that 'it's developing' period, and those things take time. Sometimes more, sometimes less.


Quote
Sure, if ED had a totally different business which deals with military stuff which is NOT intended to filter to commercial consumers, then fine. We'll never see any of that. But I was operating under the expectation of something similar to A10C, where something is done for the military and we'll get a de-classified version of it.... if this were the case, then we'd SEE these products.


I'll just nitpick on that. You're not a commercial consumer, you're an entertainment consumer. The commercial part of this is what you like to call 'military', but by no means does ED cater just there. Regarding the A-10C ... you got something very different than the military got, and the knowledge used for it is what the 'declassified' bit really is. The two products aren't the same in (if we're sticking to the aircraft). I don't think the ANG got an AFM for example, but they also didn't need one.
Not all commercial/military contracts will work out that way either - in some cases any 'trickle down' may be prohibited.

Quote
See, the thing here is that the excuse of "military contracts take priority" is starting to get old and is starting to sound like a convenient cop-out to use whenever they feel like it. "This product is crap!" - oh, they didn't have enough time to test it due to military contracts taking up most of their time. "This product is delayed!!" - they had less time to work on it due to military contracts and hence the delay.


No one's made that excuse for years now, as far as I can tell. While other projects may have priority, we just don't hear about them. It may be happening behind closed doors, sure! You might not even know if you're reaping benefits, detriment, or both due to this.


Quote
You lost me there.


With all due respect, that's because you started talking about a subject that you don't understand. At all.
Branching is practiced across the software community. 'Trunk based release' is what is being talked about here without speaking the lingo - ie. developing everything on a single branch. That's a great ideal, but not always applicable for a fairly broad number of reasons - both good and bad.


Quote
Evidence of this? Or is this just further speculation?


That's what happens in the industry when there is a requirement to do so. I have no idea what evidence you'd like me to present here, since pretty much all of this is proprietary.
But, if you look at certain open source projects you'll find LTS type branches (or just labels) at minimum.
POSTGRES is a popular OSS database server. Click on 'master' and count the number of branches: https://github.com/postgres/postgres

Some are deprecated but may receive security patches. Some get feature back-ports, on rare occasions. It's not ED's situation, but there you go - branching in the real world. Of course it's mostly their release branches, and no feature branches at all ... which they may or may not use depending on their development/branching philosophy smile

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#4359059 - 05/23/17 09:00 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Because you have to break some eggs to make an omelet. It would be great if the code/API was super stable, but it isn't there yet. Yep, you're still in that 'it's developing' period, and those things take time. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

Fair point, but at some point, you'll have to come up with the omelet.... and while you're trying to come up with the omelet, the fridge no longer works and the microwave is on fire.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I'll just nitpick on that. You're not a commercial consumer, you're an entertainment consumer.

Sure, just swap the terms for whatever you think is appropriate... I think you got the gist anyway.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Regarding the A-10C ... you got something very different than the military got, and the knowledge used for it is what the 'declassified' bit really is. The two products aren't the same in (if we're sticking to the aircraft). I don't think the ANG got an AFM for example, but they also didn't need one.

So the military got it's A-10C, then ED had to START ALL OVER FROM SCRATCH to bring us our version of the A-10C? They didn't re-use the aircraft models? Textures? Avionics?
Sure, we may not have gotten what the military got... say they got 100% and we only got 70%, but we still saw the 70%. What other modules or products can we make a similar claim?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Not all commercial/military contracts will work out that way either - in some cases any 'trickle down' may be prohibited.

Fair enough, and I have said so in the earlier post.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
No one's made that excuse for years now, as far as I can tell.

So what's the latest excuse then? As far as you can tell?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
With all due respect, that's because you started talking about a subject that you don't understand. At all.
Branching is practiced across the software community. 'Trunk based release' is what is being talked about here without speaking the lingo - ie. developing everything on a single branch. That's a great ideal, but not always applicable for a fairly broad number of reasons - both good and bad.

I don't have to understand the entire thing and you can defend it all you want. Just because it is practiced doesn't mean ED is doing it right -- missed deadlines, stuff getting broken that wasn't broken before...
The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and this pudding doesn't taste good.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
That's what happens in the industry when there is a requirement to do so. I have no idea what evidence you'd like me to present here, since pretty much all of this is proprietary.
But, if you look at certain open source projects you'll find LTS type branches (or just labels) at minimum.
POSTGRES is a popular OSS database server. Click on 'master' and count the number of branches: https://github.com/postgres/postgres

Some are deprecated but may receive security patches. Some get feature back-ports, on rare occasions. It's not ED's situation, but there you go - branching in the real world. Of course it's mostly their release branches, and no feature branches at all ... which they may or may not use depending on their development/branching philosophy smile

Again, just because other people do this and ED does it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.... and even if it's the right thing to do, it doesn't mean ED is doing it the right way.

Arguing about ED and then citing other companies that does something similar does not take away the fact that ED is still bumbling and failing to meet their own deadlines or being able to fix their issues in a timely manner.


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#4359065 - 05/23/17 09:38 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Fair point, but at some point, you'll have to come up with the omelet.... and while you're trying to come up with the omelet, the fridge no longer works and the microwave is on fire.


But that's just flat out not true.

Case in point, people game constantly.

Quote
Sure, just swap the terms for whatever you think is appropriate... I think you got the gist anyway.


I did, I just wanted to point out that the commercial thing is very real, and separate from 'military'.


Quote
So the military got it's A-10C, then ED had to START ALL OVER FROM SCRATCH to bring us our version of the A-10C? They didn't re-use the aircraft models? Textures? Avionics?
Sure, we may not have gotten what the military got... say they got 100% and we only got 70%, but we still saw the 70%. What other modules or products can we make a similar claim?


Some of this I know, some of this is a very educated guess:

Aircraft models - don't know
Textures - not all of them I imagine (actually, you're probably getting a lot more skins in the entertainment model than in the military one)
Cockpit - yep, the military didn't get a 3D one, you did - this includes the textures in the cockpit
Avionics - I imagine that things like the ADI and other reasonably common stuff is re-used in its majority if not as a whole, in terms of functionality

Underlying modular avionics coding system - probably completely reused in terms of the framework, though functionality of the actual instruments may be different. The cockpit programming framework is the big thing we get out of this, which is also re-used in other modules - probably a big upgrade of the framework that was used in the Ka-50.
Advanced systems framework code - new for you. I don't think the military had as much of it as we do.

Quote
So what's the latest excuse then? As far as you can tell?


I'm not sure there is one. They just inform that 'this is delayed, we have this in the works', etc. That's it. For the most part, little if any hint of 'why', other than mentioning some priorities/focus. But then maybe you read more stuff that I do.
I guess if you really want to name something an excuse, it's pretty much:

"We're working on stuff, it's taking longer than expected". The rest is speculation.

Quote
I don't have to understand the entire thing and you can defend it all you want. Just because it is practiced doesn't mean ED is doing it right -- missed deadlines, stuff getting broken that wasn't broken before...
The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and this pudding doesn't taste good.


In fact you do need to understand the whole thing to really discuss it, because it is huge subject. You're just moving goal posts now - what you're writing above has nothing to do with branching. What branching does is suck time out of things - if done wrong, a lot of time. I don't see that ED is doing things particularly 'wrong'. I suppose they could have just closed the doors and not released anything new until 2.5 was done. Or just cut features and released a lesser version of 2.5. Or whatever. No matter WHAT they did, someone would be up in arms over it smile

Quote
Arguing about ED and then citing other companies that does something similar does not take away the fact that ED is still bumbling and failing to meet their own deadlines or being able to fix their issues in a timely manner.


You're still moving goal posts. You're the one that linked skills to branching. ED stopped promising deadlines a long time ago. You know this. As for 'bumbling' ... I doubt it. The developers are quite skilled. We just don't really know what they're up to or why things are the way they are.


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#4359087 - 05/23/17 11:16 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost


With all due respect, that's because you started talking about a subject that you don't understand. At all.
Branching is practiced across the software community. 'Trunk based release' is what is being talked about here without speaking the lingo - ie. developing everything on a single branch. That's a great ideal, but not always applicable for a fairly broad number of reasons - both good and bad.


Hold on a sec.

First...you're saying that branching is practiced across the software community. You have labeled us in the "entertainment" category...so can you give an example of another entertainment software product that has "branched" as much as DCS has? Different branches with varying levels of modules that are in different states of Alpha, Beta...etc. where one alpha works in one branch, one beta works in a different branch etc.? I have been an "entertainment" software consumer for a couple decades and I can't think of another product that's been as fractured as DCS...and yet you are saying it's commonplace. Examples?

You're probably right...we don't understand it fully...nor should we have to. We're entertainment consumers...our obligation is to pay for the product and it should work, that's where it should end.

Last edited by Force10; 05/23/17 11:17 PM.

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#4359099 - 05/24/17 12:23 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10
First...you're saying that branching is practiced across the software community.


Yes it is. Branching is a huge topic and it is practiced in many different ways in the software community.

Quote
You have labeled us in the "entertainment" category...so can you give an example of another entertainment software product that has "branched" as much as DCS has?


ARMA/BIS maintain a bunch of branches. I imagine the Steel Beasts guys do as well, though you won't hear about/see that. Star citizen - same. They may do it in similar or different ways compared to ED.

Quote
Different branches with varying levels of modules that are in different states of Alpha, Beta...etc. where one alpha works in one branch, one beta works in a different branch etc.?


Nothing so public, ED did something that most others haven't: They published what are essentially feature branches.

Quote
I have been an "entertainment" software consumer for a couple decades and I can't think of another product that's been as fractured as DCS...and yet you are saying it's commonplace. Examples?


Of course it is. You just don't get to see it normally. ED released a bunch of stuff that's still in development, but they also very clearly said that this is the case.

Quote
You're probably right...we don't understand it fully...nor should we have to. We're entertainment consumers...our obligation is to pay for the product and it should work, that's where it should end.


Yep, and your stable product is clearly 1.5.x. And it works. Do bugs happen? Yes.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 05/24/17 12:36 AM.

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#4359117 - 05/24/17 02:28 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost


Yep, and your stable product is clearly 1.5.x. And it works. Do bugs happen? Yes.


...unless of course you bought the A10 beta 6 years ago for the Nevada terrain...then you have to fly the 2.0 Alpha.

Arma isn't as good of an example as they don't "branch" so much as being stacked on top the previous version with Dev and RC versions that don't cherry pick which modules/terrain you can use with certain versions. (for the most part)


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#4359153 - 05/24/17 08:44 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
But that's just flat out not true.

Yes, it's not true. Because you said so.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Case in point, people game constantly.

And that does not prove anything aside from the fact that people game constantly. If you widen your horizons a bit, you'll also see that people experience bugs and issues with the game constantly.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I did, I just wanted to point out that the commercial thing is very real, and separate from 'military'.

And the point of the whole exercise was???
So we have military, commercial, and entertainment classes of consumers. Yay!

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Some of this I know, some of this is a very educated guess:

Glad you're on board. So what other modules or products can we make a similar claim?

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I'm not sure there is one. They just inform that 'this is delayed, we have this in the works', etc. That's it. For the most part, little if any hint of 'why', other than mentioning some priorities/focus. But then maybe you read more stuff that I do.
I guess if you really want to name something an excuse, it's pretty much:

"We're working on stuff, it's taking longer than expected". The rest is speculation.

There is always a "why."

You must be an ideal customer then, GrayGhost... you take your car in for servicing, they tell you it'll be ready by Tuesday, you come in Tuesday, they tell you it's not ready, it'll be ready by Thursday, you come in Thursday, they tell you it's not ready.... and you never ask "why"? Good God.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
In fact you do need to understand the whole thing to really discuss it, because it is huge subject.

So you need to understand the whole thing regarding car repairs and parts logistics to understand why your repairs are taking so long?
Do you need to be a 3-star Michelin chef to discuss how and why your dinner was crap?
Point is -- I may not understand the inner workings of software development, but the "pudding" tastes like crap and arrives at my table 30 minutes late... or in the case of DCS, it's not even here yet. Clearly the guys in the kitchen making the pudding are doing something wrong.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You're just moving goal posts now - what you're writing above has nothing to do with branching. What branching does is suck time out of things - if done wrong, a lot of time.

So "missed deadlines" is not in the same book as "something we did sucked a lot of time"?

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I don't see that ED is doing things particularly 'wrong'. I suppose they could have just closed the doors and not released anything new until 2.5 was done. Or just cut features and released a lesser version of 2.5. Or whatever. No matter WHAT they did, someone would be up in arms over it smile

You could close down the doors and people will complain. Or keep the doors open and people will complain. But do you get the product out quicker? Do you get a better product in the end?
So far, ED have kept the "doors open" and it's not getting the product out quicker and the progress of the build patches doesn't even look promising. It's way past telling them how to do their job; they've decided on their approach and they can't even do that well.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You're still moving goal posts. You're the one that linked skills to branching. ED stopped promising deadlines a long time ago. You know this. As for 'bumbling' ... I doubt it. The developers are quite skilled. We just don't really know what they're up to or why things are the way they are.

I'm not moving anything. Everything is tied. If you have the proper skills, you'd be able to release stuff on time, or at least with a reasonable delay with a good reason "why." Heck, if you have the proper PLANNING and MANAGEMENT skills, you'd probably be able to release stuff EARLY. I was only speculating that if ED did branch out into other areas, why are their skill levels not improving. As for ED promising deadlines, sure, they stopped this, but only because they realized that they're just making themselves look more and more stupid. If a product was promised in 2016 and wasn't released in 2016, the fact the "ED stopped promising deadlines" does not fix the fact that they FAILED to bring out a promised product in 2016. Can you follow the logic here? Just because "ED stopped promising deadlines" does not make the current date 2015, nor does it stop time.

As for the "bumbling," sure. I'm wrong just because you said so.
I will agree that the developers are skilled. But they have no direction. "Bumbling." This is WHY I say this word. Now what is YOUR reason why you say they are not?
We may not know what they're up to or what they're dealing with, but as I said before, the proof is in the pudding. And they've been bumbling this one for a good while now such that people can point to evidences of their bumbling while others can only insist on making vague excuses on ED's behalf.


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#4359154 - 05/24/17 08:49 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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In all fairness, the programmers may be Anderson here, the expert in red lines.... but if everyone above him manages projects like his superiors, well, I feel sorry for Anderson. smile
And I'm sure we can all relate to this scenario one way or another.


linky


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#4359162 - 05/24/17 09:21 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
In all fairness, the programmers may be Anderson here, the expert in red lines.... but if everyone above him manages projects like his superiors, well, I feel sorry for Anderson. smile
And I'm sure we can all relate to this scenario one way or another.


linky



I have no further argument to put forward your honor smile

#4359203 - 05/24/17 02:11 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
You must be an ideal customer then, GrayGhost... you take your car in for servicing, they tell you it'll be ready by Tuesday, you come in Tuesday, they tell you it's not ready, it'll be ready by Thursday, you come in Thursday, they tell you it's not ready.... and you never ask "why"? Good God.


Or you must be a nuisance customer. Seriously?

Quote
I will agree that the developers are skilled.


You made a connection between branching and skills ... a connection that's really not appropriate without knowing the why. You don't know the why. Follow this logic. You brought up branching, when I pointed out that you don't understand it enough to make conclusions, you decided to go all over the place.


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#4359244 - 05/24/17 05:31 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Or you must be a nuisance customer. Seriously?

Therein lies our differences. When I'm told something will be done by a certain time, I expect that thing to be done by that time. And if not, I do ask "why". Nuisance? Hardly.
When products are late to be released, when goods are late to be delivered, it is not the customer who is asking "why" who is the nuisance, it is the incompetence of others that is the nuisance.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You made a connection between branching and skills ... a connection that's really not appropriate without knowing the why.

The connection between branching and skill development is under the assumption that it's the same group of people handling the different projects. If you have Group A working on Branch A and you have Group B working on Branch B, then I agree there is no connection on branching and skills, but if Group A works on Branch A for two months, then works on Branch B for two months, then surely their skills build up over the 4 months....

Remembering that we're talking about ED here is the key. You may be polluted by other examples from other companies, but that's not what I'm talking about. The assumption here is that ED is a small company with limited staff and that is why projects take a lot of time as they are (assumingly) put on hold. Here we have Group A working on military stuff, then Branch A, then Branch B, and so on. There is no Group B.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You don't know the why.

And neither do you.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You brought up branching, when I pointed out that you don't understand it enough to make conclusions, you decided to go all over the place.

Very nice of you to fixate on this. However, let me repeat what I said....
Quote
So you need to understand the whole thing regarding car repairs and parts logistics to understand why your repairs are taking so long?
Do you need to be a 3-star Michelin chef to discuss how and why your dinner was crap?
Point is -- I may not understand the inner workings of software development, but the "pudding" tastes like crap and arrives at my table 30 minutes late... or in the case of DCS, it's not even here yet. Clearly the guys in the kitchen making the pudding are doing something wrong.

I may not understand it enough, but I'm competent enough to know when late is late. When broken is broken.


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#4359287 - 05/24/17 07:34 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I've never seen so much rubbish posted GrayGhost......

Yes, developers can use branches to create/focus on different functions of software - and depending on what the software is for and what company is providing it using their frameworks and various policies will determine how the development is done..........

However, it's pretty much irrelevant to the end user.....as long as it is managed and integrated efficiently in order to utilise the available resources AND deliver the end product on time.

The big difference is, and which you either fail to acknowledge or just point blank refuse to accept is;

ED are not managing the integration efficiently and are not delivering the end product on time. It's an absolute FACT because every single product they have been involved with that is associated with DCS has missed the mark, not by days, weeks or months but by YEARS - consistently. Sim fans can throw opinions around on forums such as SimHQ and censored message boards such as ED's own 'forum' however when a 3rd party gets so chuffed off with the inability to do their own integration work efficiently because of the knock-on effect of ED's incompetence and actually goes public then that tells its own story. As much as VEAO are next to useless I do have some sympathy for them in having to work around ED - it's almost a recipe made in heaven having these two companies paired up - they can bounce incompetence off each other (as they have both done for a number of years now).








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#4359314 - 05/24/17 10:14 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Thankfully they are not releasing anything more, considering the hawk is sooooo unfinished its unreal

Its funny you mention ED forums being so censored , came across this gem today

[Linked Image]



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4359317 - 05/24/17 10:53 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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OMG, that is just comedy gold!! Thank you, ED forum mods, for proving 112th_Rossi right!


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#4359320 - 05/24/17 11:13 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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And the post has been deleted!

CENSORED


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4359322 - 05/24/17 11:21 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Can someone direct him to SimHQ?

Remind me,is 'posting rights revoked' a permanent thing?


EV's are the Devils matchbox.
#4359328 - 05/24/17 11:50 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
Can someone direct him to SimHQ?

He'll probably introduce himself here soon enough! smile

Originally Posted by Chucky
Remind me,is 'posting rights revoked' a permanent thing?

AFAIK, it can be permanent if you say things like, I dunno, the truth? Or ask the "uncomfortable" questions?
Or it can be temporary for other minor things like not praising the ED mods the correct way. biggrin

Remember, it's not the opinion that counts, but the delivery of that opinion! duh


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#4359329 - 05/24/17 11:52 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Argh!! Dammit, the sig has changed. Did anyone manage to save a screenshot of his old sig?


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#4359332 - 05/25/17 12:03 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Thankfully they are not releasing anything more, considering the hawk is sooooo unfinished its unreal

Its funny you mention ED forums being so censored , came across this gem today

[Linked Image]


Oh that Reddit post has been fun. You know they are fuming over the fact they can't touch anything at Reddit.

#4359367 - 05/25/17 06:32 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
Can someone direct him to SimHQ?

Remind me,is 'posting rights revoked' a permanent thing?



I think
perma ban = Posting rights revoked

Timed ban = Posting rights suspended

Last edited by leaf_on_the_wind; 05/25/17 06:58 AM.


Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4359370 - 05/25/17 08:00 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Link to the Reddit post please?


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#4359375 - 05/25/17 09:51 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Thankfully they are not releasing anything more, considering the hawk is sooooo unfinished its unreal

Its funny you mention ED forums being so censored , came across this gem today

[Linked Image]



Moderation is always been very bad on dcs forums, now they shot their own leg again. I like/and same time hate dcs (product) but sithspawn is just sick and i wonder why he is still allowed to be moderator. He is clearly not good choice to mod.


Last edited by Haukka81; 05/25/17 09:52 AM.

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#4359378 - 05/25/17 10:07 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Link to the Reddit post please?


here you go buddy

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/6d2f3v/saw_a_good_post_on_ed_then_ed_was_ed_again/



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4359379 - 05/25/17 10:25 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Haukka81]  
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Originally Posted by Haukka81
sithspawn is just sick and i wonder why he is still allowed to be moderator. He is clearly not good choice to mod.


Ah but if you kiss enough backside....the original community manager will promote you. There was only 1 community manager before Sithspawn, now his mate bignewy is also a community manager.......give it a few months and you will see Skatezilla (who banned me for comments here at SimHQ before 1.13 was removed from the ED forums) will soon enough be community manager along side Bignewy, kind of like my job at the mines here in QLD Australia.....it's not what you know it's who you know that get's you the position you want



#4359388 - 05/25/17 11:38 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
Can someone direct him to SimHQ?


Done mate

#4359390 - 05/25/17 12:05 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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It is not only Sith but also Wags that is the problem. he is so full of himself.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4359391 - 05/25/17 12:08 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Haukka81]  
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Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
here you go buddy

Thanks! That was a fun read!


Originally Posted by Haukka81
sithspawn is just sick and i wonder why he is still allowed to be moderator. He is clearly not good choice to mod.

Interesting tidbits on that Reddit thread... apparently, the Russian side of things are run more openly... so maybe it's not totally ED Dev's fault. It is partially their fault for allowing this to happen but the main perpetrators are the English forum moderators, it seems.


- Ice
#4359400 - 05/25/17 12:50 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Haukka81]  
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Originally Posted by Haukka81
Moderation is always been very bad on dcs forums, now they shot their own leg again. I like/and same time hate dcs (product) but sithspawn is just sick and i wonder why he is still allowed to be moderator. He is clearly not good choice to mod.



It's not the opinion that breaks the rules.....it's the delivery of the opinion.

I wouldn't say the moderation has been 'very bad' as you have put it. ED\TFS have a 'brand' that is protected by the moderator's\community manager's. Most comments that are removed from the forums are mostly negative and the poster has their posting rights revoked.

This is not new ground for a forum. Take it from a different point of view.

Sorry Tom but I am using you as an example.....Say for instance SimHQ was a 3rd part developer for DCS, SimHQ only releases skins for DCS aircraft......Tom decides to sell the skins, The consumer decides the skins are not to ED standard, The consumers then write comments in the way of "the skin is nothing like the original used on aircraft blah blah blah, Force10 steps in as 'community manager' and see's the post aimed at Tom Weiss as damaging to SimHQ, SimHQ's forum etc is being paid for by the consumer's who are buying Tom Weiss's aircraft skins......Force10 removes the post that is 'damaging' to SimHQ. That poster is upset by the removal of his\her's post and sends a PM that is ripping a new one into Force10.....Force10 decides the argument has run it's course and gives 'said' person a ban.....

Take it as you will.....there is not much difference between what I have posted now compared to what your original argument is.....being "Moderation is always been very bad on dcs forums"

Now in posting the above....the difference would be if 'said consumer' posted on the ED's forums about 'Tom's skins not being as per original" on the Avia forums and force10 for instance was a member of the Avia forums and banned 'said person' for comments made about Tom Weiss's skins over at Avia here at SimHQ.....that would then lead to an absolutely different situation now would it now? 1.13 anybody?

#4359404 - 05/25/17 01:11 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Originally Posted by KraziKanuK
It is not only Sith but also Wags that is the problem. he is so full of himself.


Yep.....Skatezilla issued a ban on me at ED for comments I raised here during my original VEAO EFM review 12 months ago.......I put in a support ticket (as I was banned from the forums) Sith asked me if I wanted to increase it (3 month ban) which I agreed to (2 year ban, and then a 3 year ban) for comments here are SimHQ when 1.13 was still in effect.....I then put forward an ex ED forum moderator for promotion to be a community manager over at ED for review which earned me a life time ban (with out any comment on the name put forth) I then put in a 2nd support ticket saying seeking an answer as to why I received a life time ban along the lines of "I still have not received an official response to the original ticket putting forth (said name) as community manager" Wags himself responded saying that "my dcs world account would be entirely removed if I keep seeking a response to the original request to vote\put forth a member name from SimHQ as community manager"

Quite funny really......

So the producer threatens to pull the pin on my account considering I own every module\map bar Normandy and the Spitfire? Yet my contribution to the simulation is to own almost every product released by ED, yet own everything released by their 3rd parties who are relying on ED to fix the coding hence the original topic within this thread????? quite interesting indeed how it all unfolds.

Nate?? surely you have something to say....AKA....another 'hangover comment'??

#4359407 - 05/25/17 01:57 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
This is not new ground for a forum. Take it from a different point of view.

Not valid example IMHO.

There's a difference between someone who tries to damage a good product.... take a recent example over in the Steel Beasts sub-forum... then there's silencing anyone and everyone who points out flaws in a bad product. Having to put and use rule 1.13 means they are on the defensive straight away; I don't think you'll find much rules like 1.13 on other forum sites.

Originally Posted by Winfield
So the producer threatens to pull the pin on my account considering I own every module\map bar Normandy and the Spitfire?

We've seen evidence time and again that it does not matter how many products you own or even how many times you've bought certain products. If you don't sing along with the choir, you're out.
What I find funny is that you own every module/map bar Norm and Spit, considering you are aware of the shortcomings of the platform. biggrin


- Ice
#4359411 - 05/25/17 02:13 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
What I find funny is that you own every module/map bar Norm and Spit, considering you are aware of the shortcomings of the platform. biggrin


Ah, fair point here....but I have said in the Hawk EFM thread that not owning the module (or map) forfeits my right to whinge about 'said' product smile



#4359412 - 05/25/17 02:17 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Winfield
This is not new ground for a forum. Take it from a different point of view.

Not valid example IMHO.


Oh come on Ice.....I'm allowed to stir the pot smile...this is SimHQ after all

#4359424 - 05/25/17 03:13 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Ah, fair point here....but I have said in the Hawk EFM thread that not owning the module (or map) forfeits my right to whinge about 'said' product smile

Haha!! Thankfully, I'm happy to sit back and let others do the whinging biggrin

If ED gets its head screwed on right, I could totally see myself buying more modules... however, I'm no longer interested in being an unpaid beta tester and having to fork out the money for the pleasure.



Originally Posted by Winfield
Oh come on Ice.....I'm allowed to stir the pot smile...this is SimHQ after all

By all means, stir the pot!! But stir it correctly! You know how "they" think; let's not give "them" an excuse by setting forth a poor example.


- Ice
#4359433 - 05/25/17 03:58 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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It seems like instead of DCS being a flight sim that is geared toward reaching a broad audience, it's becoming more of an exclusive club...and getting more exclusive as time goes on.

Last edited by Force10; 05/25/17 03:59 PM.

Asus Z87 Sabertooth motherboard
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______________________________________________________

Oddball from Kelly's Heroes: "If we're late, it's cause we're dead"



#4359440 - 05/25/17 04:30 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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@Force 10 , tried to pm you , your inbox must be over flowing



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4359443 - 05/25/17 04:37 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I cleared out some messages...should be good now leaf.


Asus Z87 Sabertooth motherboard
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______________________________________________________

Oddball from Kelly's Heroes: "If we're late, it's cause we're dead"



#4359456 - 05/25/17 06:25 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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So this is halting releases but continuing development? Presumably this frees up resources to make changes without worrying if it's exactly release ready constantly. That could mean faster development.

#4359471 - 05/25/17 08:06 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I don't have the VEAO Hawk, but good choice on their part. You can't develop for 4 platforms, all bugged and ever-changing in unpredictable ways.


Regarding the Ed forum moderation, great post from 112th_Rossi! I bet he's wearing his red posting-rights-revoked cross with honour. I'm done buying ED products, as someone said in the reddit post, playing something made by a bunch of assholes feels weird, and paying assholes gives even less pleasure. Still, I have the feeling that the Russian part of ED is not as mentally f*cked, after all, they have a daily job and not as much free time to stalk people on the internet as SnotSpawn and Wanger do.

#4359590 - 05/26/17 01:03 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Oh look a developer who has the guts to stand for their own interest instead of worship ED. It hurts me to read comments of people finding many excuses about why ED does this or that, as always customers just fall into any c***p a developer says to them.

They had two ways :
1 - Keep expanding the old code to avoid development from scratch and perhaps keep, in theory, the life easier for 3rd party developers by developing in small steps so it become easier for 3rd party developers to update their products.
2 - Develop a new version from scratch and using the past experience (old software) as guide line about what to do or not to do. Which may force any 3rd party developer to a bigger development.

The problem with point 1 is that sooner or later you will get a spaghetti code with increasing difficulty as you go on (the worse the base design the faster it will be). You will keep carrying bugged code around for years (eg. xplane devs just fixed a bug in their tire code that has been there unnoticed for years) or simply old code (eg. new ai development technique but you still have 90' style ai code with all their inflexibility). Even if you are unrealistically lucky enough to not carry any bug around, the growth of the software will not homogeneous. You will have many piece of the software that will be outdated (DCS is a perfect example, you have this new graphic engine whereas everything else - core, netcode, ai - is outdated) and since you are improving a piece per time the freedom of development for a given piece may be held back by others outdated piece of software that must maintain compatibility with but still has an old design.
I'm not saying that it cannot be done, but it requires a very well done design with great vision of future features/expansions and certainly a flexible core architecture. If you do all your homework PERFECTLY then you will really make life easier for 3rd party devs but first of all it requires a really modular base software that separate completely the core code from the modules (eg. flight simulator that is 15 years old but still has a good 3rd party development limited only by the VAS problem which was not a problem at that time). But beware, the spaghetti code is inevitable it just take longer to hit that.

The point 2 obviously requires more workforce for both the base software and maybe even 3rd party software. But hey, this become an acceptable excuse for devs to earn more money with new versions of their work (unless they abuse) . However, if you sucked in software architecture design the first time, you might make mistakes again on the newer version (eg. falcon development has been reset twice or trice).

DCS is neither an OS nor one of those EXTREMELY RARE class of software that basically cannot be rebuilt from scratch due to their nature. There is no excuse on why not take option 2 (regardless military contract or not)! At first i would say that this is just lazy development but since they decided to work on 3 branches at the same then this is not laziness at all, this is just stupid development (again regardless military contract or not).

It is like if the company who bought falcon 4 license starts to waste money on further development on that old and ugly code instead of creating a whole new project (eg. falcon 5).

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 05/26/17 01:06 PM.
#4359600 - 05/26/17 01:47 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10
It seems like instead of DCS being a flight sim that is geared toward reaching a broad audience, it's becoming more of an exclusive club...and getting more exclusive as time goes on.


Amen!

#4362063 - 06/05/17 01:48 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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VEAO is a bunch of incompetent losers. My question is why ED did not cut them off before they released the hawk. That thing was a substandard piece of trash. All they do is make excuse on how hard development is. To me it looks like they are a bunch of dudes who like to spend their weekends at an airfield drinking beer and thought they can make a quick $ with a module.

Their product quality borders on fraud because they and ED knew exactly how crappy the hawk was on release day and still they charged 50-60$ for it.

#4362159 - 06/05/17 07:03 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Yep. Big waste of money. I wish I had picked another module.


_ _ ______________________ _ _

S6
#4365153 - 06/21/17 01:51 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: straycat]  
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Originally Posted by straycat
VEAO is a bunch of incompetent losers. My question is why ED did not cut them off before they released the hawk. That thing was a substandard piece of trash. All they do is make excuse on how hard development is. To me it looks like they are a bunch of dudes who like to spend their weekends at an airfield drinking beer and thought they can make a quick $ with a module.

Their product quality borders on fraud because they and ED knew exactly how crappy the hawk was on release day and still they charged 50-60$ for it.


You knowingly bought a bit of software that you KNEW wasn't finished. Be mad all you want...........at yourself. I stopped buying ED's alpha and beta software a long time ago. I'll buy when they have a real release. Maybe you wouldn't have sour grapes had you done the same.

#4365280 - 06/21/17 03:09 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I think the issue **NOW** with the Hawk is not the fact that it isn't finished.... anyone buying a BETA knows that the product is, well, beta. The issue NOW is what state the Hawk is in knowing how long ago it was released and what they have done or not done since then to address the issues regarding the module.

If someone bought a new aircraft today while it is in a beta state then complains about bugs tommorrow, then your statement is valid. This isn't the case with the Hawk.


- Ice
#4365947 - 06/25/17 11:12 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Who knows what will happen now.
From VEAO's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/veaosimulations/


Quote
Dear All,
A note to clarify the position regarding our sub-forums being deleted on ED's forums over the weekend.
We were notified on Friday that TFC would not be renewing our existing contracts that had a 3 year term on them and when the module is closer to release we can seek a contract under new terms from ED.
We are currently evaluating the contract terms with our legal team and discussing the matter with TFC and ED.
That's all I can say on the matter right now.
So as it stands today we are no longer in contract with TFC/ED for the following:
HA-112 Hipano Buchon
Supermarine Spitfire Mk XIV
F8F Bearcat
Curtis P-40F
Typhoon
As you can imagine this was a bit of a shock to us and we are evaluating our position currently.
An official post will be made when things are clearer.
Please give us time to deal with this news.
Thanks,
Chris.

#4365954 - 06/25/17 12:52 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: EjectEject]  
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Originally Posted by EjectEject
Who knows what will happen now.
From VEAO's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/veaosimulations/


Quote
Dear All,
A note to clarify the position regarding our sub-forums being deleted on ED's forums over the weekend.
We were notified on Friday that TFC would not be renewing our existing contracts that had a 3 year term on them and when the module is closer to release we can seek a contract under new terms from ED.
We are currently evaluating the contract terms with our legal team and discussing the matter with TFC and ED.
That's all I can say on the matter right now.
So as it stands today we are no longer in contract with TFC/ED for the following:
HA-112 Hipano Buchon
Supermarine Spitfire Mk XIV
F8F Bearcat
Curtis P-40F
Typhoon
As you can imagine this was a bit of a shock to us and we are evaluating our position currently.
An official post will be made when things are clearer.
Please give us time to deal with this news.
Thanks,
Chris.

Havent some folk already paid for the P40? ED allowed the sale of that module under one contract now when its closer to release, ha, they have to seek a different contract. Seems to me the customers, once again (WW2 kickstarter), are getting the shaft because EDs business model is based on "wait and see because everything is subject to change" why on earth anybody pays for betas on that platform/business model is a head scratching mystery to me. Some folk have more money than sense.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4365965 - 06/25/17 01:57 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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maybe I am being daft - or it is plain ignorance as I don't keep track of 3rd party devs - but the VEO forum is there, what is the fuss ?

#4365967 - 06/25/17 02:07 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
maybe I am being daft - or it is plain ignorance as I don't keep track of 3rd party devs - but the VEO forum is there, what is the fuss ?


Yea, appears to be there now. Maybe the mention of "contract" changed some things.


Last edited by EjectEject; 06/25/17 02:07 PM.
#4366310 - 06/27/17 04:03 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: EjectEject]  
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Originally Posted by EjectEject
Who knows what will happen now.
From VEAO's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/veaosimulations/


Quote
Dear All,
A note to clarify the position regarding our sub-forums being deleted on ED's forums over the weekend.
We were notified on Friday that TFC would not be renewing our existing contracts that had a 3 year term on them and when the module is closer to release we can seek a contract under new terms from ED.
We are currently evaluating the contract terms with our legal team and discussing the matter with TFC and ED.
That's all I can say on the matter right now.
So as it stands today we are no longer in contract with TFC/ED for the following:
HA-112 Hipano Buchon
Supermarine Spitfire Mk XIV
F8F Bearcat
Curtis P-40F
Typhoon
As you can imagine this was a bit of a shock to us and we are evaluating our position currently.
An official post will be made when things are clearer.
Please give us time to deal with this news.
Thanks,
Chris.

This also Destroys the myth/lie that ED had no part in the original WW2 kickstarter. If RRG were just a third party and ED were in no way a partner in the fiasco why did ED not do the same with RRG as they have done with VEAO? VEAO had been allowed to continue for far longer than RRG were allowed. Money had been exchanged for the P40 just as the had been for the Kickstarter. Why hasn't ED taken full control over VEAO assets as they did with The WW2 stuff? Because they are not partners, because ED were a partner in the kickstarter and after full assessment of the successfully funded Kickstarter decided "Nah, were not going to honour this, lets cut the rewards, throw some BS around, blame RRG and every bodies favorite scapegoat Luthier and call it good. Most folk will believe us, they're mostly idiots." Some folk will still refuse to join the dots.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366361 - 06/27/17 07:38 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I don't think it's really fair to jump on ED for all of what you said but I understand the frustration completely. A lot of mistakes have been made in the last few years and everyone is getting frustrated and impatient including me. This has been posted before but here's the link again about what happened with RRG. All of the different companies are under different contracts so you can't compare what is happening with VEAO and what happened with RRG.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126824

#4366380 - 06/27/17 08:48 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Originally Posted by *Striker*
I don't think it's really fair to jump on ED for all of what you said but I understand the frustration completely. A lot of mistakes have been made in the last few years and everyone is getting frustrated and impatient including me. This has been posted before but here's the link again about what happened with RRG. All of the different companies are under different contracts so you can't compare what is happening with VEAO and what happened with RRG.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126824

Yeah I read that.
The link you posted is from sithspawn a forum moderator. That is not from wags or anyone with any knowledge of the facts merely a spin doctor. There has never been an official response from anyone at ED/TFC. Apart from this
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=125454
"The exception will be the circumstances which led to this change in product management and development. Sorry, but that simply is not going to happen due to legal agreements."

Re read the kickstarter

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944

in its entirety including the updates

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/updates

Back and forths between RRG and ED, ED giving go aheads. It's all there. If you'd actually care to do some research on the whole debacle and not just read what sith says and take it as gospel.







Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 06/27/17 09:15 PM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366418 - 06/27/17 11:19 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I don't take anything Sith says as gospel and in fact I think he's pretty much a jerk, but he is the head community moderator and that was posted as the official explanation and cleared from ED. Sith just posted it for them. Also, I was only pointing out that VEAO and RRG are different entities and have or had different contracts. It's obviously very complicated because there is a lot of cross development and sharing of development data. Yes, what was promised from ED and the Kickstarter turned out to be a total mess. Everyone agrees with you on that. But ED did take up the job and finished the Normandy map despite the fact that RRG completely blew it.

#4366456 - 06/28/17 01:49 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Where does it state that that was posted as the official explanation and cleared by ED? Where? I've read it I see no official statement. All i see is the same BS as siths pathetic post about the community and his "reaching out". Was that pathetic patting himself on the back an official statement too?
Do you honestly believe that ED would allow a third party to operate without setting out an in depth business plan?
"RRG stated that Kickstarter funds would be a small part of the project. Where the other funding was coming from was undisclosed"
"The money being raised is only a portion of the development budget. The majority of the programming, some aircraft art, and more, are the costs that the team is funding internally" the team being RRG, ED, TFC, oleg, ilya and igor. Its on the kickstarter.
I think i'll head on over to ED tell them i have a few million tucked away, not saying where, they'll have to take my word for it. Sith stated in the "official" explanation that they're morons, and start my own third party. C'mon! You think thats an official statement?
Of all the other failed third parties why is the RRG WW2 kickstarter the only one "picked up" by ED? Their name is all over it thats why. They were part of the "Team" as written on the kickstarter.
"The project is a joint venture between RRG Studios and Eagle Dynamics."
Because Sith opens a thread doesnt make it an official statement. Thats the myth, the smoke and mirrors, the BS that surrounds the kickstarter lie. Sith spreads the lie and if its caught its not an official statement, just siths opinion. If its not caught its official until its caught.
Its so badly put together and poorly written and starts with "what we know" "im writing this because..." its not official.

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 06/28/17 02:40 AM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366460 - 06/28/17 02:10 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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All companies and business have complicated contracts that sometimes go bad and they do what they always do, CYA. You and I are not privy to ED and their partner contracts so we all have no idea how they're interlinked. But the Normandy map was promised and ED made good on it. That's all I know. I'm going to hazard to guess that the same will happen with the P-40 since it's part of the WWII backer stuff. But as far as previous promises or developments, we all know the current ED company slogan, "Everything is Subject to Change!'

BTW, everything that's posted on the ED forums by the moderators or ED staff are official announcements. That's already been stated many times before.

#4366462 - 06/28/17 02:14 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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The P40 was not part of the Ww2 backer stuff. I suggest you do some research before posting any more on something you have very little knowledge of.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366475 - 06/28/17 03:04 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Originally Posted by *Striker*
...

BTW, everything that's posted on the ED forums by the moderators or ED staff are official announcements. That's already been stated many times before.

Really? show me where.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366477 - 06/28/17 03:09 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
The P40 was not part of the Ww2 backer stuff. I suggest you do some research before posting any more on something you have very little knowledge of.

(unnecessary, inflammatory and stupid comment deleted by me) I was trying to have a decent conversation but I see that's not possible. I made a mistake with the P-40 obviously but everything else I said was valid. If you can't learn to have a decent conversation with other people then you need to just learn to refrain from posting anything at all until you can learn to do that.

#4366480 - 06/28/17 03:16 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Sensitive soul arent you. I suggested you do some research, you call me a moron and you accuse me of being insulting? Really?


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366483 - 06/28/17 03:25 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Enough you two.

I'm going to chalk this jousting up to "boys will be boys"...but anymore personal shots are going to result in a timeout.

Take it to pm's if you need to.


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#4366484 - 06/28/17 03:50 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Im sorry. I get irritated by the continual use if siths post. Its full of lies and excuses that are contrary to what is written on the kickstarter page. I apologize. Sorry Striker

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 06/28/17 03:54 AM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366486 - 06/28/17 04:01 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I shouldn't have called you or anyone a moron or reacted to anything anyone has said in the past. I'll try to keep it civil from here on out.

I think that the thing is I really don't care if anyone likes DCS or hates it. It's just a sim. I like it and I know that ED has a lot of problems but it's still a great sim. The forums over there have become really toxic or at least they were because of the way it was moderated. I came over here because of that. I'm just trying to provide any information I have that can help. So I apologize as well for lashing out the way I did.

#4366489 - 06/28/17 04:17 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
I get irritated by the continual use if siths post. Its full of lies and excuses that are contrary to what is written on the kickstarter page.

I think that something must have happened because I think that they've been trying to change that but only time will tell. I have noticed a slight change of tone in the moderation over there lately. It's very subtle but at least it's a little better. A little less heavy handiness. I honestly don't think it's going to help much though. The numbers on the forums have dropped so drastically that it's going to take years to claw back anything respectable in my opinion. I used to see thousands of participants and now only 30-40. That translates "INTO SALES", or at least it does help. So I think that ED has kind of realized that it's been somewhat of a disaster to have it so problematic.

Anyhow, I should have looked up the P-40 thing so that's inexcusable, but what I was trying to say is that ED is probably going to have to step in and do something about it. The P-40 was a very prominent aircraft in the beginning of WWII and should be included in the picture. Also, one of our main squadrons, the 75th VFS Tiger Sharks is based on the original 23rd fighter wing which included the P-40. So I have a personal interest in seeing it developed. Whatever happens to VEAO, it should end up being part of the stable.

#4366491 - 06/28/17 04:35 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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ED have no obligation to step in with the P40. VEAO will have to issue refunds if their contract for the P40 is not renewed. This is the point i'm trying to make. ED had an obligation to continue the development of the ww2 kickstarter because they were part of the joint venture with RRG dispite what sith says. It is written for all to see on the kickstarter page.
VEAO have access to some interesting aircraft unfortunately i, and this is my opinion, believe they lack the skillset to accomplish what they claim. The P40 will have to wait until the hawk is finished and then we will see if VEAO will remain dedecated in continuing developing for DCS after their sales of the hawk and their reputation have taken a beating.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366493 - 06/28/17 04:46 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
ED have no obligation to step in with the P40. VEAO will have to issue refunds if their contract for the P40 is not renewed. This is the point i'm trying to make. ED had an obligation to continue the development of the ww2 kickstarter because they were part of the joint venture with RRG dispite what sith says. It is written for all to see on the kickstarter page.

Yes, I'm sure you are quite correct on all of this. I should have read that more carefully and I wasn't aware of that difference.

My gut feeling is that things are not going well for them right now. I honestly don't see them finishing the Hawk or the P-40 for that matter at least not any time soon.

#4366508 - 06/28/17 08:53 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Originally Posted by *Striker*
I think that the thing is I really don't care if anyone likes DCS or hates it. It's just a sim. I like it and I know that ED has a lot of problems but it's still a great sim. The forums over there have become really toxic or at least they were because of the way it was moderated. I came over here because of that. I'm just trying to provide any information I have that can help. So I apologize as well for lashing out the way I did.

I applaud both of you for the quick growing up you just did! biggrin Nice to see that, truly.

The thing is, we like DCS. I personally liked DCS. Note the past tense. They have taken the sim in a very wrong direction and we (the so-called anti-ED crowd) are simply calling out the mistakes and BS as we go along. I've said it time and time again... given the correct audience, DCS A10C and DCS BS2 are great modules and well worth the money. However, it's very frustrating to see so much potential wasted on side-projects, poor planning, and even poorer excuses. People who enjoy DCS are connected to it emotionally, but so are the people who enjoyed (note past tense) DCS so it is natural that we can get emotional in our arguments and discussions. Nothing wrong with that at all. Going personal, however, is uncalled for.

Originally Posted by *Striker*
what I was trying to say is that ED is probably going to have to step in and do something about it. The P-40 was a very prominent aircraft in the beginning of WWII and should be included in the picture. Also, one of our main squadrons, the 75th VFS Tiger Sharks is based on the original 23rd fighter wing which included the P-40. So I have a personal interest in seeing it developed. Whatever happens to VEAO, it should end up being part of the stable.

"Should" being a keyword here. Even if ED does step in, where does it go on the priority ladder? With everything else on ED's plate, any new addition will push any further projects back by 5-10 years.


- Ice
#4366531 - 06/28/17 11:13 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Just to step in with my 2 cents....and I won't go over my thoughts on the whole circus that is now ED as most people are more than aware......

I just can't believe that ED and VAEO are having this out in public but Sith has determined that a running commentary on 3 different websites is a good way of handling it. Not only are the companies involved looking very amateurish, Sith is pulling them further into the mire in his attempts to keep EDs name untarnished.

The car crash has already happened, bodies are getting publicly dragged onto a pedestal now with a viewing gallery pencilled in for the near future too. Bonkers - it will be televised in a courtroom next, with Judge Judy on one side backing up the yanks and that bell-end Judge Rinder on the other side making smutty innuendo for the Brits! Can't wait. yep


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4366544 - 06/28/17 12:14 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Well, we need entertainment somehow.... biggrin


- Ice
#4366562 - 06/28/17 01:37 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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On the ED forums it was stated that they plan on finishing the Hawk and the P-40, so we shall see.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3179314&postcount=70

#4366567 - 06/28/17 02:21 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Although his heart is in the right place what exactly is this guy saying?
Abburo post #67
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3179314#post3179314
Throw more money at the problem? He's actually advocating throwing more fuel on the fire? That's exactly what DCS needs right now, more pi$$ed of customers.
What ED need to do is stop the ridiculous early access/beta shambles and only put finished modules in their store. All of EDs problems stem from the fact that the whole mess is a work in progress the foundations are still a work in progress everything is a work in progress. They need your hard earned money to finish their work in progress and they're hoping enough folk are willing to part with their hard earned money or it all fails. Unfortunately the guys doing the work are incompetent, if that sounds to harsh to some you just have to look at the time its taken and is still taking to get to 2.5. There is no solid business plan from ED or their 3rd parties, not one that I can see, in hoping enough folk buy early access to continue. Especially in a niche market, especially in a niche market where ones reputation for incompetence, EDs and their 3rd parties, is growing. It's beyond irresponsible, no matter how heart felt the plea, to ask the community for more money.

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 06/28/17 02:34 PM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366575 - 06/28/17 03:30 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I've sat back and read through several forums/sites worth of posts and replies on this and the DCS World in general. Some are backing but many are pretty ticked.

IMO, ED is seeing their product/rep is in trouble. The 2.1 release was another disaster. They knowingly released a product visually different than what was shown to the public. And it made flying in certain atmospheric conditions, impossible. All of this leads to a reputation problem. Compounded by a Community Manager that lurks on other forums and bans people when they speak out and give the truth.
People complain and point out the lack of 2.1 servers in comparison to 1.5 and use it as a gauge. Thats inaccurate, as 1.5 is free and 2.1 is not. Despite NTTR being sterile and boring to some (I love it), it costs money and the majority of the sim community are cheap a$$es that will shell out $60 for a plane/helo but not a proper place to fly it.

Now the VEAO thing. Call it a contractual issue, but the fact is they failed to meet obligations and were finally called on it. I just wish ED could have the same done on them. But the instant gratification crowd in this community will continue to give their money away for alpha releases. Simply put, VEAO are in over their heads. They used old code and it finally caught up to them. As I'm seeing it, they arent interested in DCS at all, but in the potential of gov contracts. Dividing the company into two entities says enough. But the Hawk, if it is ever completed, needs to be incredible. Otherwise their rep is done. If SkateZilla can build a Super Hornet from scratch on spare time, then dedicated programmers/artists should be able to knock it out quickly if proper attention was being given. But it is not.

Aviodev is not far behind and needs to use VEAO's predicament as a wake up call.

The E3 F/A-18 preview was, IMO, a slap to the face. They knowingly hyped up the community for a release announcement but did not delivery much of anything. Something that is long overdue, continues to be out of reach for the unforeseeable future. Honesty, is not part of EDs policy until backed into a corner. Even then, they'll deflect as much as they can.

I'm still a supporter of DCS World. I enjoy it, but feel its so closed off to proper customer input, it will always be the sim that could have been.

#4366577 - 06/28/17 03:41 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
Although his heart is in the right place what exactly is this guy saying?
Abburo post #67
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3179314#post3179314
Throw more money at the problem? He's actually advocating throwing more fuel on the fire? That's exactly what DCS needs right now, more pi$$ed of customers.
What ED need to do is stop the ridiculous early access/beta shambles and only put finished modules in their store. All of EDs problems stem from the fact that the whole mess is a work in progress the foundations are still a work in progress everything is a work in progress. They need your hard earned money to finish their work in progress and they're hoping enough folk are willing to part with their hard earned money or it all fails. Unfortunately the guys doing the work are incompetent, if that sounds to harsh to some you just have to look at the time its taken and is still taking to get to 2.5. There is no solid business plan from ED or their 3rd parties, not one that I can see, in hoping enough folk buy early access to continue. Especially in a niche market, especially in a niche market where ones reputation for incompetence, EDs and their 3rd parties, is growing. It's beyond irresponsible, no matter how heart felt the plea, to ask the community for more money.


^^^^^^ Exactly......

and the post above from 'ST0RM'

I'm about to go and buy a Lamborghini Huracan, there is absolutely no way I can afford it, but....I might just give 'Abburo' a call from the DCS Message Board and see if he can get a collection started!


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4366581 - 06/28/17 04:04 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I do agree with just about everything your saying Storm. All of the delays, problems and excuses have been a huge slap in the community face. We all need them to start getting it in gear and get these releases finished and working properly and that includes 2.5 and the new Caucuses and Normandy maps. Every day they delay just makes it worse for all of us. I do think that the E3 was a positive thing though. Our group has been waiting for over 3 years now on the Hornet and we're finally starting to see a tiny sliver of light at the end of the tunnel or at least that's what it feels like. Hopefully my gut feeling is not too far off.

#4366593 - 06/28/17 05:02 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Originally Posted by ST0RM
it costs money and the majority of the sim community are cheap a$$es that will shell out $60 for a plane/helo but not a proper place to fly it.

Or maybe the majority of the sim community have wisened up to ED's tactics? Also, Nevada isn't really a "proper place to fly" anything unless what you're flying is training missions in Red Flag or some such.

Originally Posted by ST0RM
The E3 F/A-18 preview was, IMO, a slap to the face. They knowingly hyped up the community for a release announcement but did not delivery much of anything. Something that is long overdue, continues to be out of reach for the unforeseeable future. Honesty, is not part of EDs policy until backed into a corner. Even then, they'll deflect as much as they can.

True. Weren't they saying they'll give a release date on the Hornet once Normandy is out? How long ago was Normandy released now?

Originally Posted by ST0RM
it will always be the sim that could have been.

+1


Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
Throw more money at the problem? He's actually advocating throwing more fuel on the fire? That's exactly what DCS needs right now, more pi$$ed of customers.

I would've liked to say he was probably a new member, but he's not... shows he's joined in 2013... so maybe he's just one of those who simply refuse to see the whole picture and believe that their optimism will help win the day.


Originally Posted by *Striker*
Our group has been waiting for over 3 years now on the Hornet and we're finally starting to see a tiny sliver of light at the end of the tunnel or at least that's what it feels like. Hopefully my gut feeling is not too far off.

Over 3 years? How about more like 5? Regardless, Wags wasn't even talking about a release date, so I'm thinking more likely late 2018. We'll see the A-G radar in next year's Thrustmaster E3 booth. smile


- Ice
#4366600 - 06/28/17 06:31 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

Or maybe the majority of the sim community have wisened up to ED's tactics? Also, Nevada isn't really a "proper place to fly" anything unless what you're flying is training missions in Red Flag or some such.


I simply dont see that. Most simmers are kids or pretty close. This is evident in the public servers where they SPAMRAAM everything in sight and/or buzz the runway at full blower. They'll buy anything new and shiny.
The hardcore group is rather small and stays within their own circles. They specifically fly one or two types and are smarter with their purchases.

As for Nevada and your impression of it being a training grounds only. What is the difference between it and the Caucasus map? Or Normandy? Its another place to fly. None of them are populated with AI units or targets. And without, they all are sterile until they get life.

The same will be for Hormuz in 2020. Just an empty map until the AI gets dropped in.

#4366603 - 06/28/17 06:38 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: ST0RM]  
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Originally Posted by ST0RM

People complain and point out the lack of 2.1 servers in comparison to 1.5 and use it as a gauge. Thats inaccurate, as 1.5 is free and 2.1 is not. Despite NTTR being sterile and boring to some (I love it), it costs money and the majority of the sim community are cheap a$$es that will shell out $60 for a plane/helo but not a proper place to fly it.


Totally wrong in one important aspect regarding how many 1.5 Vs 2.1 servers online

If you want to run a 2.1 "dedicated" (meaning not running as a client and hosting) server you have to buy a copy of NTTR

Pretty much this is the reason why there are not as many 2.1 servers, no other game / sim asks you to pay out for content if you want to host a server
eg Arma3 , you do NOT have to pay to host a server , the current situation is of ED making, them being money grabbing a$$holes IMO

I run a 1.5.6 server 24/7 open to all, to allow pilots to train on (and its pretty popular) , but I will not host a 2.1 server because I will not pay for NTTR twice , once was more than enough

Last edited by leaf_on_the_wind; 06/28/17 06:39 PM.


Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4366614 - 06/28/17 07:55 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: ST0RM]  
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Originally Posted by ST0RM
I simply dont see that. Most simmers are kids or pretty close. This is evident in the public servers where they SPAMRAAM everything in sight and/or buzz the runway at full blower. They'll buy anything new and shiny.
The hardcore group is rather small and stays within their own circles. They specifically fly one or two types and are smarter with their purchases.

I was simply speculating. Your statement seems to be delivered with more conviction. Is there any evidence for this outside of their behaviors of SPAMRAAM (cool term btw!! biggrin ) and buzzing the tower? I'll have you know that I'll be doing the latter very often once the Hornet and/or Tomcat comes out, so airfield recklessness isn't really a metric for age group wink

Originally Posted by ST0RM
As for Nevada and your impression of it being a training grounds only. What is the difference between it and the Caucasus map? Or Normandy? Its another place to fly.

Wasn't the Caucasus map supposed to be where sh!t is supposed to hit the fan if Mother Russia decided she wanted more territory? Obviously, Normandy is the site for that pew-pew action so many decades ago.... So we can go to either map and "pretend" stuff that we thought would happen but hasn't happened is now actually happening. What about Nevada? Is the People's Republic of California declaring war on the peaceful citizens of the Democratic Regime of Arizona? Is the United Counties of Utah rekindling old hatreds towards the People's Republic of California?

Originally Posted by ST0RM
None of them are populated with AI units or targets. And without, they all are sterile until they get life.

The same will be for Hormuz in 2020. Just an empty map until the AI gets dropped in.

To be fair, the maps are sterile even with AI units smile


- Ice
#4366616 - 06/28/17 08:01 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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@Ice. LOL

California would run to it's safe place and get rolled.

No worries, glad you liked the SPAMRAAM term. Cant claim it, but sure love to reuse it.

#4366617 - 06/28/17 08:03 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Oh, SPAMRAAM is much, much better than the old term "Air Quake"!!


- Ice
#4366624 - 06/28/17 08:49 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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The P-40 refund link is dead. Was there some sort of deadline for the refund? I haven't read any ...


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#4366630 - 06/28/17 09:37 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Quick question

On the ED forums The VEAO guy Ells228 has a link to the refund policy -> http://www.veaosimulations.co.uk/refunds

Does this work for anyone ?

Last edited by leaf_on_the_wind; 06/28/17 09:38 PM.


Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4366632 - 06/28/17 09:48 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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It did bring me to their refund page.... but as I've not bought anything from them, I have no way of testing their refund policy. Thankfully. smile


- Ice
#4366649 - 06/28/17 11:43 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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A very disappointing experience...we don't live for ever and the clock is ticking old_simmer


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OEM screenshots & videos of Eu release..So I fly the original game because I am a off-liner and the game's AI was broken after the last good patch, game version 1.0.13954
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#4366678 - 06/29/17 03:24 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
I agree, Daz... however, the point I'm making is while they may have made money from military contracts IN THE PAST, I don't think that is true today and they're having to rely more on their commercial side to keep the company afloat, hence the week-after-week-after-week of sales and bundle promos. I don't think they have any recent work that is derived from a military contract, therefore, they have not had "military funds".

The impreshion that I get, is that ED is only interested in covering monthly payroll, and taking some profit monies each month, hence the frequent...on sale


Post composed with speech to text, it woks grape!


Clod
OEM screenshots & videos of Eu release..So I fly the original game because I am a off-liner and the game's AI was broken after the last good patch, game version 1.0.13954
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#4366689 - 06/29/17 04:50 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: SlipBall]  
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Originally Posted by SlipBall

Originally Posted by - Ice
I agree, Daz... however, the point I'm making is while they may have made money from military contracts IN THE PAST, I don't think that is true today and they're having to rely more on their commercial side to keep the company afloat, hence the week-after-week-after-week of sales and bundle promos. I don't think they have any recent work that is derived from a military contract, therefore, they have not had "military funds".

The impreshion that I get, is that ED is only interested in covering monthly payroll, and taking some profit monies each month, hence the frequent...on sale

How many folk actually work for ED? I can't see the sales of their modules covering payroll. Heck if hat was the case If I was an ED employee I'd be looking for work elsewhere as the future doesn't look too bright. Mind you who the hell is going to employ someone with "Eagle Dynamics Programmer" on their Resume. they'd get laughed out of the interview.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366703 - 06/29/17 08:40 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Quick question

On the ED forums The VEAO guy Ells228 has a link to the refund policy -> http://www.veaosimulations.co.uk/refunds

Does this work for anyone ?


I'll have a go with my Hawk......but given that pre-release and beta products are not part of the policy doesn't that only leave final release modules that can actually be refunded? To that end, nothing that VEAO has ever released (or probably will ever release) actually falls into the refund policy.


Edit: I've just logged in on their site....it looks like they have covered my order very well to ensure no refund, the title of the order is: DCS:Hawk (EFM) Beta (Pre-sale) × 1 biggrin


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4366730 - 06/29/17 11:41 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Quick question

On the ED forums The VEAO guy Ells228 has a link to the refund policy -> http://www.veaosimulations.co.uk/refunds

Does this work for anyone ?


I'll have a go with my Hawk......but given that pre-release and beta products are not part of the policy doesn't that only leave final release modules that can actually be refunded? To that end, nothing that VEAO has ever released (or probably will ever release) actually falls into the refund policy.


Edit: I've just logged in on their site....it looks like they have covered my order very well to ensure no refund, the title of the order is: DCS:Hawk (EFM) Beta (Pre-sale) × 1 biggrin

So they only refund for released products. Leaving aside the obvious, who is going to return a finished module, they all sound as if theyre going to be fantastic, and what restrictions will they put on the refund? Wheres the honesy? Why not just say "no refunds, once you press confirm order youre screwed. Have fun and happy flying! Thanks"


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366768 - 06/29/17 03:55 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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In this thread thy povided a link to the P-40 refund but it isn't working anymore: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=187765
Direct refund link: http://veaosimulations.co.uk/dcs-p-40f-refund-request/


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#4366769 - 06/29/17 03:59 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: ST0RM]  
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Originally Posted by ST0RM

I simply dont see that. Most simmers are kids or pretty close.


true

I am 12 next month.


#4366850 - 06/30/17 12:42 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
Originally Posted by SlipBall

Originally Posted by - Ice
I agree, Daz... however, the point I'm making is while they may have made money from military contracts IN THE PAST, I don't think that is true today and they're having to rely more on their commercial side to keep the company afloat, hence the week-after-week-after-week of sales and bundle promos. I don't think they have any recent work that is derived from a military contract, therefore, they have not had "military funds".

The impreshion that I get, is that ED is only interested in covering monthly payroll, and taking some profit monies each month, hence the frequent...on sale

How many folk actually work for ED? I can't see the sales of their modules covering payroll. Heck if hat was the case If I was an ED employee I'd be looking for work elsewhere as the future doesn't look too bright. Mind you who the hell is going to employ someone with "Eagle Dynamics Programmer" on their Resume. they'd get laughed out of the interview.

Crazy I know, but that's my impression


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Clod
OEM screenshots & videos of Eu release..So I fly the original game because I am a off-liner and the game's AI was broken after the last good patch, game version 1.0.13954
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#4366877 - 06/30/17 08:41 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I would say that these clowns are halting further releases because ED has finally laid down the 3rd party contract laws as in "You were signed on a 3rd party developer and over the last 5 years you just haven't lived up to the hype, therefore we (ED\TFC) are cutting ties with you (VEAO) until you can lift your game and release what you originally promised our consumers" Chris has basically bought his company time to fix what is broken with the hawk and other aircraft. So a post saying "We will no be releasing aircraft for blah blah blah" is basically saying "we will have it sorted and everything will be fine before the year is out" however....I have my doubts....Is it a coincidence that I update my Hawk thread in these very forums and within 36 hours VEAO release the statement that they will not be updating anything or releasing anything further??

#4375224 - 08/18/17 06:48 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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update on their Fb page

Quote
Following a shareholders meeting with our investors this week, development of modules for DCS was high on the agenda amongst other business development items.
Following the recent activity in regards to contract renewals for specific aircraft modules we were in the process of developing and heavily invested in, the following conclusions were made regarding moving forward with DCS module development:
DCS will no longer be our primary development platform.
That said; we are committed to getting Hawk out of early access and released as soon as possible. This will involve updated PBR cockpit textures, bug fixes for major systems, bugs recorded internally with ED and any found with future DCS patches as ongoing maintenance.
Development of P-40F for DCS will resume but will not take precedence of development over other platforms. We maintain that we do not expect to release P-40F prior to 2.5 and a release schedule will be confirmed when the module is ready for beta.
When P-40F is ready for review in DCS; we will, as previously agreed with TFC arrange an acceptance demonstration with a view of releasing the aircraft to you, the public.
Development work on our other aircraft will no longer continue for DCS.
If, at a suitable time, we however convert these assets for DCS we will confirm this in due course when the aircraft is ready for release, not during its development cycle.
Chris and I along with the entire VEAO family appreciate the support of the DCS Community during this time and continuing into the future of our modules in DCS world.
Pete


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#4375227 - 08/18/17 06:54 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Shame, I only had an interest in the Eurofighter. Considering the HAWK is still in Early Access... I can't imagine it would have turned out good anyways.

At least Razbam updated the M-2000C cockpit a bit recently. Their dedication to improving the manual and hopefully more of the cockpit has regained some faith in them.

#4375229 - 08/18/17 07:09 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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If I'm reading that correctly, VEAO is essentially washing their hands of DCS? They'll finish the Hawk, wait for 2.5 and finish the P-40F, and then that's about it, right?

What other modules were VEAO supposed to be making or were in the pipeline?


- Ice
#4375230 - 08/18/17 07:18 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Besides Hawk and the P-40F they had:

Hispano Ha-1112 Buchon
F8F Bearcat
Typhoon
Spitfire Mk XIV
Meteor F3
Vampire FB5

Insane list IMO seeing how they fail so hard with the Hawk, a frigging trainer.

I for one will not miss them.

#4375231 - 08/18/17 07:28 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
I for one will not miss them.

Typhoon as in the Eurofighter Typhoon? I'd be interested in that aircraft..... but then again, I'm sure if there's a demand, someone else will pick up the slack.

What I find funny is that the Hawk was in early access in March 2015, that's more than 2 years ago... and they talk about committing to get it released ASAP? LOL!


- Ice
#4375233 - 08/18/17 07:35 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: theOden]  
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Genbrien Offline
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Originally Posted by theOden


seeing how they fail so hard with the Hawk, a frigging trainer.

.


imagine if they were doing the T-45....


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#4375242 - 08/18/17 07:54 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I was really looking forward to flying their Spit XIV in SEAC colours... Oh well, maybe in the "other platform", if ever biggrin

#4375319 - 08/19/17 09:13 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Genbrien]  
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Originally Posted by Genbrien
update on their Fb page

Quote
Following a shareholders meeting with our investors this week, development of modules for DCS was high on the agenda amongst other business development items.
Following the recent activity in regards to contract renewals for specific aircraft modules we were in the process of developing and heavily invested in, the following conclusions were made regarding moving forward with DCS module development:
DCS will no longer be our primary development platform.
That said; we are committed to getting Hawk out of early access and released as soon as possible. This will involve updated PBR cockpit textures, bug fixes for major systems, bugs recorded internally with ED and any found with future DCS patches as ongoing maintenance.
Development of P-40F for DCS will resume but will not take precedence of development over other platforms. We maintain that we do not expect to release P-40F prior to 2.5 and a release schedule will be confirmed when the module is ready for beta.
When P-40F is ready for review in DCS; we will, as previously agreed with TFC arrange an acceptance demonstration with a view of releasing the aircraft to you, the public.
Development work on our other aircraft will no longer continue for DCS.
If, at a suitable time, we however convert these assets for DCS we will confirm this in due course when the aircraft is ready for release, not during its development cycle.
Chris and I along with the entire VEAO family appreciate the support of the DCS Community during this time and continuing into the future of our modules in DCS world.
Pete


and officially at ED https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3224759&postcount=1

I knew it was bound to happen, I even mentioned this numerous times last year with my review of the hawk in these very forums. Now to see the Hawk moved to the Mods section like the CTD Hornet all those years back

as a side note, good to see many satisfied customers happy with this decision in the thread like this fine gent https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3225019&postcount=30 who basically sums up every consumer's thought on the situation.

Edit: I am still waiting for that airshow Chris, perhaps now I need to invest into p3d to see that happen when the hawk is finally out of Early Access eh? VEAO has always been a laughing stock in the DCS world.....Pity you did not take on board my gripes back when I reviewed you P.O.S waste of bandwidth last year.


Last edited by Winfield; 08/19/17 09:36 AM.
#4375320 - 08/19/17 09:39 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Genbrien]  
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Originally Posted by Genbrien
Originally Posted by theOden


seeing how they fail so hard with the Hawk, a frigging trainer.

.


imagine if they were doing the T-45....


Imagine if they did not release anything under the VEAO banner.....better still, imagine if ED themselves had far stricter 3rd party developer measures in place all those years ago and not handed out licenses to 'mates of Matt Wagner'

So does this mean I can get unbanned from the ED forums since I was right with my comments the entire time Skate? By the way.....how is the search for Carmen Sandiego going since you so kindly offered your opinion on the bugs in question which I pointed out numerous times in my hawk review?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3224934&postcount=24



#4375368 - 08/19/17 04:45 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I think ED can't really be stricter with anyone knowing their track record.... they may BS us customers but I doubt 3rd-party devs, people who do this for a living and whose livelihood depends on it have much less tolerance for BS.


- Ice
#4375465 - 08/20/17 12:16 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I did not see it mentioned - so I guess the F-14B Tomcat module that they were developing is also cancelled, they haven't released any screenshots of it for a long time.

#4375502 - 08/20/17 06:14 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
I did not see it mentioned - so I guess the F-14B Tomcat module that they were developing is also cancelled, they haven't released any screenshots of it for a long time.

the Tomcat was not made by VEAO

it's made by Heatblur

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/


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#4375521 - 08/20/17 08:54 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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OK.

#4376258 - 08/25/17 12:10 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Heatblur is on the ball with the Tomcat, don't worry about it.


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#4376433 - 08/26/17 10:05 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Winfield Offline
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The sooner these clowns close up shop the better.

#4376458 - 08/26/17 03:29 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Heatblur is on the ball with the Tomcat, don't worry about it.


You'll have to excuse me for not believing anything that anyone involved with ED says. Apparently there is a test team that are supposedly there to identify bugs before releasing products into the public domain however the most obvious show-stopping bugs slip through the door every time, or bugs and glitches that prevent download or even game launch.

Have ED or 3rd parties ever been 'on the ball'. I struggle to recall a single example.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4376519 - 08/27/17 02:41 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Paradaz]  
Joined: Dec 2003
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GrayGhost Offline
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GrayGhost  Offline
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Heatblur is on the ball with the Tomcat, don't worry about it.


You'll have to excuse me for not believing anything that anyone involved with ED says.


Don't worry, I don't have much reason to believe anything you say either. smile


--
44th VFW
#4376523 - 08/27/17 05:34 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Originally Posted by Paradaz
Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Heatblur is on the ball with the Tomcat, don't worry about it.

You'll have to excuse me for not believing anything that anyone involved with ED says.

Don't worry, I don't have much reason to believe anything you say either. smile

Ah, yes... the classic "let's bring this down to a personal level" tactic. Well played!


- Ice
#4376540 - 08/27/17 02:26 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
Joined: Sep 2010
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Johnny_Redd  Offline
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Originally Posted by Paradaz
Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Heatblur is on the ball with the Tomcat, don't worry about it.


You'll have to excuse me for not believing anything that anyone involved with ED says.


Don't worry, I don't have much reason to believe anything you say either. smile

Hmmmm, if Paradaz told you the sky was green with pink polka dots it really doesnt matter unless he was trying to sell you the sky. Paradaz isnt selling you anything. He's offering his opinions, you can take them or leave them. I take them as mine are pretty much the same. you can fact check anything paradaz has said and come back here and call him out or sit with your fingers in your ears. ED and their 3rd parties, on the other hand, are selling their wares. If folk want to call them out on their bungled releases, missed releases and anything else that shows their complete incompetence they can, they've paid the entry fee. You can fact check or you can sit with your fingers in your ears. Until DCS gets its $hit together and starts to show some semblance of competence the criticism and call outs will continue. Folk work hard for their money. If DCS takes my money they had better be working hard for it. From what I see, they're not. No one from wags down to the testers are working hard for my money. And like Paradaz, I do not believe anything that anyone involved with ED says because their track record is there for all to see.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4377503 - 09/02/17 10:18 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Apr 2014
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Winfield Offline
model citizen
Winfield  Offline
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QLD
Originally Posted by Paradaz
they're blinded by ignorance and military contracts that bankroll the losses and waste of resources in their desktop development and products.

Originally Posted by Ice
Again, I ask --- what recent product(s) do they have that have come from military contracts?



VEAO had high hopes selling the Hawk off to the RAF for use in training pilots. What a flop that was....



Just like that heap of crap in the video above that did the rounds a few times in the forums but got no where.

Originally Posted by a load of crap
Our development program consists of creating realistic aircraft and environments they fly in and our current development plan includes the BAE Hawk T.1A Trainer, Eurofighter Typhoon, classic WWII War Birds amongst many jet and prop aircraft.

Our products have been showcased to the public at various air shows and events around the UK and Europe over the past several years and we have also created solutions for leading aerobatic teams such as the Breitling Jet Team which toured South East Asia in 2013. In 2009 and 2010 we created a solution for the Royal Air Force recruitment team in conjunction with BAE Systems for the Waddington International Air show.

The team consists of project managers, 3D modellers, texture artists, animators, sound mechanics, advanced flight mechanics programmers and advanced systems modelling programmers.


Source: Crap

Interesting how the words posted on the website differs to what has been put into practice......pretty much sums up the company as a whole.....words spoken, written to ED\TFC contradict what has been produced over the last 7 years by this flopveloper

Anyone remember when these VEAO clowns crapped on about maps? the "Mach Loop" for example? perhaps with all the project managers, 3D modellers, texture artists, animators and sound mechanics these clowns say they have, yet announced no other aircraft to be released in DCS world. Perhaps they should focus their time on releasing new maps as it is quite obvious they have no idea how to code 1 single aircraft correctly.

I'd like to see ED\TFC employ their next 3rd party developer as one that just releases new maps, not aircraft or campaigns.....just maps.


#4377593 - 09/02/17 11:36 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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They can't even sell the Hawk to regular consumers.... maybe the RAF or the Red Arrows has much, much lower requirements?


- Ice
#4377763 - 09/04/17 02:09 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
Joined: Jul 2015
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straycat Offline
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straycat  Offline
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I feel it is great news that VEAO is failing.
Back in late 2014 I mentioned the texture quality being an issue. Then in 2015 I said it again:
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=136147&page=11

Quote
Ok just going to say it. The texturing attempt is very bad. Whoever is texturing that thing, is not a professional texture artist. He is struggling very hard with basic metal representation and the metal with supposedly slightly used metal looks like marble. My guess is VEAO did not even plan to get a professional artist and went for "hey I know how to use photoshop, Ill just read on some tutorials on how to make a base texture with render clouds!"

It's a bit embarrassing for VEAO and for ED too because one would expect out of the box topshelf quality in texture as we are seeing from ED, BELSIMTEK and LEATHERNECK. Is there no quality assurance at ED to keep all 3rd party modules on a certain level of visual quality. The hawk texture is far below what I would consider a standard established in DCS.

Also this is not about supporting a new developer. They are asking the same money like other developers (with 10$ off because of the flight model difference) so we can expect the same quality. Why do we get a mig21, or mig15 soon out of the box with topshelf texture quality, full flight model. Meanwhile from VEAO and to some extent aviodev we get "we are trying so hard but we are not done yet!" If your texture and flight model are not yet up to the expect quality level, THEN DONT OFFER the beta sale this early.

And as for the hawk texture itself, it is not the cockpit being bland in real life, its the skill of the texture artist making it look this bad. Compare it to the sabre screenshot above, it has bland metal surfaces all over it,yet it is masterfully painted.
What worries me is that VEAO is the 3rd party with a huge amount of modules announced, yet they are not able to deliver anything visually convincing.

Belsimtek never talks on the forums, they just bring out new modules which are sort of on time and legendary in quality, texture, flight model. No excuses, no explanations how hard they try.


So, I would like to suggest for VEAO to get their act together and hire a texture artist who knows what he is doing.


That was followed by a barrage of moderator warnings, bans, the developers calling me rude.
What was rude is ED and VEAO charging 50$ for a broken piece of trash that would never live up to DCS standards.

It freels great to see these fool fail now. They tried to get away with making some quick cash, failed to deliver.
What the hell was ED thinking letting these idiots make a module.

And they do not have "shareholders" and "military contracts". If they would deliver quality this #%&*$# they would have been fired from their contract instantly. All they did was write big press releases and give themselves titles like "consumer products manager" as if they are a large company with different divisons.

My guess about their business model was that there are 2 guys "in charge" with no clue about programmin or game development who hired some 3rd rate developers to create the plane for them. Of course this imploded and they then blamed their employees who they hired for #%&*$# pay for not being up to the task.


Last edited by straycat; 09/04/17 02:16 PM.
#4377784 - 09/04/17 04:36 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: straycat]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Posts: 16,082
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Originally Posted by straycat
give themselves titles like "consumer products manager" as if they are a large company with different divisons.

I always find this bit funny... like the head janitor being Managing Director of Waste Relocation and Disposal Operations. smile


- Ice
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