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#4359008 - 05/23/17 04:43 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
I disagree...

If they were making other military products which are classified enough that they can't sell them to the public, would their "skill level" not be high enough that they'd know not to do three (or FOUR!) dev branches?


Where do you get off mentioning 'skill' here? The whole 'one branch' thing isn't just new, it's not even industry-wide. It is an attempt to build 'best practices' around leveraging common code and services, but it is absolutely not a 'one size fits all' situation. It isn't always appropriate for everything, but there's definitely a benefit to minimizing the number of branches you're working on.

Here's an example: In the phone industry, there's an OS/App branch for each phone. RIM did it, probably every other cellphone manufacturer is doing it (actually, it's even kind of obvious that they are). Those branches die with the phone models. That's not a great way to develop things, but it's how their business model works.

Long term support branches are a staple of the software industry. You can think of 1.5.x as an LTS branch. Almost everything else is a 'feature' branch, being actively developed. Whether that's being managed well internally is not visible to any of us, nor is ED's business.

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Would they not have a better handle on the software they are working on? In other words, if they were working on other military products, why are they still bumbling about with regards to their progress in their commercial products?


They'd have an additional or multiple military (customer) branches, or perhaps completely separate repositories for TBS vs. DCS.


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#4359011 - 05/23/17 05:12 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I want to add something to what was just stated as well. Dmitry Robustov as far as I know works for both ED and Belsimtek and probably others as a developer. He worked on those videos for AVIA but that was back in 2012 for ITEC. But just because they made those videos and terrains doesn't mean that translates to any version of DCS World. As far as anyone knows outside of the companies, these were just done for demonstration purposes to try and get military contracts. It doesn't mean that they've gotten any out of it, just that they've been trying. So saying that DCS 2.0 has been around since then is kind of a big assumption. We don't know that. We only know that they've been working on EDGE since then and that they've been marketing their skills to get military contracts. Same thing with TBS. It's there as a marketing tool but we don't know anything about what they've achieved with it.

#4359022 - 05/23/17 06:32 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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The way I see it, the last 3rd party, as far as development pace is concerned, becomes the first one to make a sensible decision about dealing with multiple builds chaos, even though it will cause some delays. Didn't expect that! I hope something good comes out of it, at least for them, because they do have a couple of warbirds on their schedule I'd love to see built and released in high standard at last.

#4359046 - 05/23/17 08:15 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Is it stupid that internal development code is changing quickly?

If it were just changing quickly, that would be fine. In fact, it would be GREAT as it means the work is getting done quickly. However, when you then insert that into the current picture, where modules get broken, where stuff people have already paid for no longer work like they did in the previous version, how is that a good thing?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Who knows? One of the biggest unknowns is what their business is doing outside of DCS. We only have hints: Map-making for professional flight sims, some military flight sim stuff, some collaborations with certain manufacturers.

Sure, if ED had a totally different business which deals with military stuff which is NOT intended to filter to commercial consumers, then fine. We'll never see any of that. But I was operating under the expectation of something similar to A10C, where something is done for the military and we'll get a de-classified version of it.... if this were the case, then we'd SEE these products.

See, the thing here is that the excuse of "military contracts take priority" is starting to get old and is starting to sound like a convenient cop-out to use whenever they feel like it. "This product is crap!" - oh, they didn't have enough time to test it due to military contracts taking up most of their time. "This product is delayed!!" - they had less time to work on it due to military contracts and hence the delay.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Where do you get off mentioning 'skill' here? The whole 'one branch' thing isn't just new, it's not even industry-wide. It is an attempt to build 'best practices' around leveraging common code and services, but it is absolutely not a 'one size fits all' situation. It isn't always appropriate for everything, but there's definitely a benefit to minimizing the number of branches you're working on.

You lost me there.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
They'd have an additional or multiple military (customer) branches, or perhaps completely separate repositories for TBS vs. DCS.

Evidence of this? Or is this just further speculation?


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#4359049 - 05/23/17 08:18 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Obviously the military contracts come 1st before the products syphon down to us consumers at the bottom of the ladder.

Is exactly what I'm asking. What products have trickled down to us commercial consumers lately?


Originally Posted by Winfield
I wonder why the issues have not been resolved?? which leads me to suspect, there is already a stable version which is being palmed around to anyone in the milsim industry

That wouldn't make sense at all... they have a stable version that they're marketing to the military side but leave the commercial side with a unstable version?
Then again, this three (four?) dev branches doesn't make sense either yet here it is plain to see! So I guess the above example is possible.


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#4359052 - 05/23/17 08:35 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
If it were just changing quickly, that would be fine. In fact, it would be GREAT as it means the work is getting done quickly. However, when you then insert that into the current picture, where modules get broken, where stuff people have already paid for no longer work like they did in the previous version, how is that a good thing?


Because you have to break some eggs to make an omelet. It would be great if the code/API was super stable, but it isn't there yet. Yep, you're still in that 'it's developing' period, and those things take time. Sometimes more, sometimes less.


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Sure, if ED had a totally different business which deals with military stuff which is NOT intended to filter to commercial consumers, then fine. We'll never see any of that. But I was operating under the expectation of something similar to A10C, where something is done for the military and we'll get a de-classified version of it.... if this were the case, then we'd SEE these products.


I'll just nitpick on that. You're not a commercial consumer, you're an entertainment consumer. The commercial part of this is what you like to call 'military', but by no means does ED cater just there. Regarding the A-10C ... you got something very different than the military got, and the knowledge used for it is what the 'declassified' bit really is. The two products aren't the same in (if we're sticking to the aircraft). I don't think the ANG got an AFM for example, but they also didn't need one.
Not all commercial/military contracts will work out that way either - in some cases any 'trickle down' may be prohibited.

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See, the thing here is that the excuse of "military contracts take priority" is starting to get old and is starting to sound like a convenient cop-out to use whenever they feel like it. "This product is crap!" - oh, they didn't have enough time to test it due to military contracts taking up most of their time. "This product is delayed!!" - they had less time to work on it due to military contracts and hence the delay.


No one's made that excuse for years now, as far as I can tell. While other projects may have priority, we just don't hear about them. It may be happening behind closed doors, sure! You might not even know if you're reaping benefits, detriment, or both due to this.


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You lost me there.


With all due respect, that's because you started talking about a subject that you don't understand. At all.
Branching is practiced across the software community. 'Trunk based release' is what is being talked about here without speaking the lingo - ie. developing everything on a single branch. That's a great ideal, but not always applicable for a fairly broad number of reasons - both good and bad.


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Evidence of this? Or is this just further speculation?


That's what happens in the industry when there is a requirement to do so. I have no idea what evidence you'd like me to present here, since pretty much all of this is proprietary.
But, if you look at certain open source projects you'll find LTS type branches (or just labels) at minimum.
POSTGRES is a popular OSS database server. Click on 'master' and count the number of branches: https://github.com/postgres/postgres

Some are deprecated but may receive security patches. Some get feature back-ports, on rare occasions. It's not ED's situation, but there you go - branching in the real world. Of course it's mostly their release branches, and no feature branches at all ... which they may or may not use depending on their development/branching philosophy smile

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#4359059 - 05/23/17 09:00 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Because you have to break some eggs to make an omelet. It would be great if the code/API was super stable, but it isn't there yet. Yep, you're still in that 'it's developing' period, and those things take time. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

Fair point, but at some point, you'll have to come up with the omelet.... and while you're trying to come up with the omelet, the fridge no longer works and the microwave is on fire.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I'll just nitpick on that. You're not a commercial consumer, you're an entertainment consumer.

Sure, just swap the terms for whatever you think is appropriate... I think you got the gist anyway.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Regarding the A-10C ... you got something very different than the military got, and the knowledge used for it is what the 'declassified' bit really is. The two products aren't the same in (if we're sticking to the aircraft). I don't think the ANG got an AFM for example, but they also didn't need one.

So the military got it's A-10C, then ED had to START ALL OVER FROM SCRATCH to bring us our version of the A-10C? They didn't re-use the aircraft models? Textures? Avionics?
Sure, we may not have gotten what the military got... say they got 100% and we only got 70%, but we still saw the 70%. What other modules or products can we make a similar claim?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Not all commercial/military contracts will work out that way either - in some cases any 'trickle down' may be prohibited.

Fair enough, and I have said so in the earlier post.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
No one's made that excuse for years now, as far as I can tell.

So what's the latest excuse then? As far as you can tell?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
With all due respect, that's because you started talking about a subject that you don't understand. At all.
Branching is practiced across the software community. 'Trunk based release' is what is being talked about here without speaking the lingo - ie. developing everything on a single branch. That's a great ideal, but not always applicable for a fairly broad number of reasons - both good and bad.

I don't have to understand the entire thing and you can defend it all you want. Just because it is practiced doesn't mean ED is doing it right -- missed deadlines, stuff getting broken that wasn't broken before...
The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and this pudding doesn't taste good.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
That's what happens in the industry when there is a requirement to do so. I have no idea what evidence you'd like me to present here, since pretty much all of this is proprietary.
But, if you look at certain open source projects you'll find LTS type branches (or just labels) at minimum.
POSTGRES is a popular OSS database server. Click on 'master' and count the number of branches: https://github.com/postgres/postgres

Some are deprecated but may receive security patches. Some get feature back-ports, on rare occasions. It's not ED's situation, but there you go - branching in the real world. Of course it's mostly their release branches, and no feature branches at all ... which they may or may not use depending on their development/branching philosophy smile

Again, just because other people do this and ED does it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.... and even if it's the right thing to do, it doesn't mean ED is doing it the right way.

Arguing about ED and then citing other companies that does something similar does not take away the fact that ED is still bumbling and failing to meet their own deadlines or being able to fix their issues in a timely manner.


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#4359065 - 05/23/17 09:38 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Fair point, but at some point, you'll have to come up with the omelet.... and while you're trying to come up with the omelet, the fridge no longer works and the microwave is on fire.


But that's just flat out not true.

Case in point, people game constantly.

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Sure, just swap the terms for whatever you think is appropriate... I think you got the gist anyway.


I did, I just wanted to point out that the commercial thing is very real, and separate from 'military'.


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So the military got it's A-10C, then ED had to START ALL OVER FROM SCRATCH to bring us our version of the A-10C? They didn't re-use the aircraft models? Textures? Avionics?
Sure, we may not have gotten what the military got... say they got 100% and we only got 70%, but we still saw the 70%. What other modules or products can we make a similar claim?


Some of this I know, some of this is a very educated guess:

Aircraft models - don't know
Textures - not all of them I imagine (actually, you're probably getting a lot more skins in the entertainment model than in the military one)
Cockpit - yep, the military didn't get a 3D one, you did - this includes the textures in the cockpit
Avionics - I imagine that things like the ADI and other reasonably common stuff is re-used in its majority if not as a whole, in terms of functionality

Underlying modular avionics coding system - probably completely reused in terms of the framework, though functionality of the actual instruments may be different. The cockpit programming framework is the big thing we get out of this, which is also re-used in other modules - probably a big upgrade of the framework that was used in the Ka-50.
Advanced systems framework code - new for you. I don't think the military had as much of it as we do.

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So what's the latest excuse then? As far as you can tell?


I'm not sure there is one. They just inform that 'this is delayed, we have this in the works', etc. That's it. For the most part, little if any hint of 'why', other than mentioning some priorities/focus. But then maybe you read more stuff that I do.
I guess if you really want to name something an excuse, it's pretty much:

"We're working on stuff, it's taking longer than expected". The rest is speculation.

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I don't have to understand the entire thing and you can defend it all you want. Just because it is practiced doesn't mean ED is doing it right -- missed deadlines, stuff getting broken that wasn't broken before...
The proof is in the pudding, as they say, and this pudding doesn't taste good.


In fact you do need to understand the whole thing to really discuss it, because it is huge subject. You're just moving goal posts now - what you're writing above has nothing to do with branching. What branching does is suck time out of things - if done wrong, a lot of time. I don't see that ED is doing things particularly 'wrong'. I suppose they could have just closed the doors and not released anything new until 2.5 was done. Or just cut features and released a lesser version of 2.5. Or whatever. No matter WHAT they did, someone would be up in arms over it smile

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Arguing about ED and then citing other companies that does something similar does not take away the fact that ED is still bumbling and failing to meet their own deadlines or being able to fix their issues in a timely manner.


You're still moving goal posts. You're the one that linked skills to branching. ED stopped promising deadlines a long time ago. You know this. As for 'bumbling' ... I doubt it. The developers are quite skilled. We just don't really know what they're up to or why things are the way they are.


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#4359087 - 05/23/17 11:16 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost


With all due respect, that's because you started talking about a subject that you don't understand. At all.
Branching is practiced across the software community. 'Trunk based release' is what is being talked about here without speaking the lingo - ie. developing everything on a single branch. That's a great ideal, but not always applicable for a fairly broad number of reasons - both good and bad.


Hold on a sec.

First...you're saying that branching is practiced across the software community. You have labeled us in the "entertainment" category...so can you give an example of another entertainment software product that has "branched" as much as DCS has? Different branches with varying levels of modules that are in different states of Alpha, Beta...etc. where one alpha works in one branch, one beta works in a different branch etc.? I have been an "entertainment" software consumer for a couple decades and I can't think of another product that's been as fractured as DCS...and yet you are saying it's commonplace. Examples?

You're probably right...we don't understand it fully...nor should we have to. We're entertainment consumers...our obligation is to pay for the product and it should work, that's where it should end.

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#4359099 - 05/24/17 12:23 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10
First...you're saying that branching is practiced across the software community.


Yes it is. Branching is a huge topic and it is practiced in many different ways in the software community.

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You have labeled us in the "entertainment" category...so can you give an example of another entertainment software product that has "branched" as much as DCS has?


ARMA/BIS maintain a bunch of branches. I imagine the Steel Beasts guys do as well, though you won't hear about/see that. Star citizen - same. They may do it in similar or different ways compared to ED.

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Different branches with varying levels of modules that are in different states of Alpha, Beta...etc. where one alpha works in one branch, one beta works in a different branch etc.?


Nothing so public, ED did something that most others haven't: They published what are essentially feature branches.

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I have been an "entertainment" software consumer for a couple decades and I can't think of another product that's been as fractured as DCS...and yet you are saying it's commonplace. Examples?


Of course it is. You just don't get to see it normally. ED released a bunch of stuff that's still in development, but they also very clearly said that this is the case.

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You're probably right...we don't understand it fully...nor should we have to. We're entertainment consumers...our obligation is to pay for the product and it should work, that's where it should end.


Yep, and your stable product is clearly 1.5.x. And it works. Do bugs happen? Yes.

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#4359117 - 05/24/17 02:28 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost


Yep, and your stable product is clearly 1.5.x. And it works. Do bugs happen? Yes.


...unless of course you bought the A10 beta 6 years ago for the Nevada terrain...then you have to fly the 2.0 Alpha.

Arma isn't as good of an example as they don't "branch" so much as being stacked on top the previous version with Dev and RC versions that don't cherry pick which modules/terrain you can use with certain versions. (for the most part)


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#4359153 - 05/24/17 08:44 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
But that's just flat out not true.

Yes, it's not true. Because you said so.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Case in point, people game constantly.

And that does not prove anything aside from the fact that people game constantly. If you widen your horizons a bit, you'll also see that people experience bugs and issues with the game constantly.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I did, I just wanted to point out that the commercial thing is very real, and separate from 'military'.

And the point of the whole exercise was???
So we have military, commercial, and entertainment classes of consumers. Yay!

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Some of this I know, some of this is a very educated guess:

Glad you're on board. So what other modules or products can we make a similar claim?

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I'm not sure there is one. They just inform that 'this is delayed, we have this in the works', etc. That's it. For the most part, little if any hint of 'why', other than mentioning some priorities/focus. But then maybe you read more stuff that I do.
I guess if you really want to name something an excuse, it's pretty much:

"We're working on stuff, it's taking longer than expected". The rest is speculation.

There is always a "why."

You must be an ideal customer then, GrayGhost... you take your car in for servicing, they tell you it'll be ready by Tuesday, you come in Tuesday, they tell you it's not ready, it'll be ready by Thursday, you come in Thursday, they tell you it's not ready.... and you never ask "why"? Good God.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
In fact you do need to understand the whole thing to really discuss it, because it is huge subject.

So you need to understand the whole thing regarding car repairs and parts logistics to understand why your repairs are taking so long?
Do you need to be a 3-star Michelin chef to discuss how and why your dinner was crap?
Point is -- I may not understand the inner workings of software development, but the "pudding" tastes like crap and arrives at my table 30 minutes late... or in the case of DCS, it's not even here yet. Clearly the guys in the kitchen making the pudding are doing something wrong.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You're just moving goal posts now - what you're writing above has nothing to do with branching. What branching does is suck time out of things - if done wrong, a lot of time.

So "missed deadlines" is not in the same book as "something we did sucked a lot of time"?

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I don't see that ED is doing things particularly 'wrong'. I suppose they could have just closed the doors and not released anything new until 2.5 was done. Or just cut features and released a lesser version of 2.5. Or whatever. No matter WHAT they did, someone would be up in arms over it smile

You could close down the doors and people will complain. Or keep the doors open and people will complain. But do you get the product out quicker? Do you get a better product in the end?
So far, ED have kept the "doors open" and it's not getting the product out quicker and the progress of the build patches doesn't even look promising. It's way past telling them how to do their job; they've decided on their approach and they can't even do that well.

Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You're still moving goal posts. You're the one that linked skills to branching. ED stopped promising deadlines a long time ago. You know this. As for 'bumbling' ... I doubt it. The developers are quite skilled. We just don't really know what they're up to or why things are the way they are.

I'm not moving anything. Everything is tied. If you have the proper skills, you'd be able to release stuff on time, or at least with a reasonable delay with a good reason "why." Heck, if you have the proper PLANNING and MANAGEMENT skills, you'd probably be able to release stuff EARLY. I was only speculating that if ED did branch out into other areas, why are their skill levels not improving. As for ED promising deadlines, sure, they stopped this, but only because they realized that they're just making themselves look more and more stupid. If a product was promised in 2016 and wasn't released in 2016, the fact the "ED stopped promising deadlines" does not fix the fact that they FAILED to bring out a promised product in 2016. Can you follow the logic here? Just because "ED stopped promising deadlines" does not make the current date 2015, nor does it stop time.

As for the "bumbling," sure. I'm wrong just because you said so.
I will agree that the developers are skilled. But they have no direction. "Bumbling." This is WHY I say this word. Now what is YOUR reason why you say they are not?
We may not know what they're up to or what they're dealing with, but as I said before, the proof is in the pudding. And they've been bumbling this one for a good while now such that people can point to evidences of their bumbling while others can only insist on making vague excuses on ED's behalf.


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#4359154 - 05/24/17 08:49 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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In all fairness, the programmers may be Anderson here, the expert in red lines.... but if everyone above him manages projects like his superiors, well, I feel sorry for Anderson. smile
And I'm sure we can all relate to this scenario one way or another.


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#4359162 - 05/24/17 09:21 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
In all fairness, the programmers may be Anderson here, the expert in red lines.... but if everyone above him manages projects like his superiors, well, I feel sorry for Anderson. smile
And I'm sure we can all relate to this scenario one way or another.


linky



I have no further argument to put forward your honor smile

#4359203 - 05/24/17 02:11 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
You must be an ideal customer then, GrayGhost... you take your car in for servicing, they tell you it'll be ready by Tuesday, you come in Tuesday, they tell you it's not ready, it'll be ready by Thursday, you come in Thursday, they tell you it's not ready.... and you never ask "why"? Good God.


Or you must be a nuisance customer. Seriously?

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I will agree that the developers are skilled.


You made a connection between branching and skills ... a connection that's really not appropriate without knowing the why. You don't know the why. Follow this logic. You brought up branching, when I pointed out that you don't understand it enough to make conclusions, you decided to go all over the place.


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#4359244 - 05/24/17 05:31 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Or you must be a nuisance customer. Seriously?

Therein lies our differences. When I'm told something will be done by a certain time, I expect that thing to be done by that time. And if not, I do ask "why". Nuisance? Hardly.
When products are late to be released, when goods are late to be delivered, it is not the customer who is asking "why" who is the nuisance, it is the incompetence of others that is the nuisance.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You made a connection between branching and skills ... a connection that's really not appropriate without knowing the why.

The connection between branching and skill development is under the assumption that it's the same group of people handling the different projects. If you have Group A working on Branch A and you have Group B working on Branch B, then I agree there is no connection on branching and skills, but if Group A works on Branch A for two months, then works on Branch B for two months, then surely their skills build up over the 4 months....

Remembering that we're talking about ED here is the key. You may be polluted by other examples from other companies, but that's not what I'm talking about. The assumption here is that ED is a small company with limited staff and that is why projects take a lot of time as they are (assumingly) put on hold. Here we have Group A working on military stuff, then Branch A, then Branch B, and so on. There is no Group B.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You don't know the why.

And neither do you.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You brought up branching, when I pointed out that you don't understand it enough to make conclusions, you decided to go all over the place.

Very nice of you to fixate on this. However, let me repeat what I said....
Quote
So you need to understand the whole thing regarding car repairs and parts logistics to understand why your repairs are taking so long?
Do you need to be a 3-star Michelin chef to discuss how and why your dinner was crap?
Point is -- I may not understand the inner workings of software development, but the "pudding" tastes like crap and arrives at my table 30 minutes late... or in the case of DCS, it's not even here yet. Clearly the guys in the kitchen making the pudding are doing something wrong.

I may not understand it enough, but I'm competent enough to know when late is late. When broken is broken.


- Ice
#4359287 - 05/24/17 07:34 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,922
Paradaz Offline
Senior Member
Paradaz  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,922
UK
I've never seen so much rubbish posted GrayGhost......

Yes, developers can use branches to create/focus on different functions of software - and depending on what the software is for and what company is providing it using their frameworks and various policies will determine how the development is done..........

However, it's pretty much irrelevant to the end user.....as long as it is managed and integrated efficiently in order to utilise the available resources AND deliver the end product on time.

The big difference is, and which you either fail to acknowledge or just point blank refuse to accept is;

ED are not managing the integration efficiently and are not delivering the end product on time. It's an absolute FACT because every single product they have been involved with that is associated with DCS has missed the mark, not by days, weeks or months but by YEARS - consistently. Sim fans can throw opinions around on forums such as SimHQ and censored message boards such as ED's own 'forum' however when a 3rd party gets so chuffed off with the inability to do their own integration work efficiently because of the knock-on effect of ED's incompetence and actually goes public then that tells its own story. As much as VEAO are next to useless I do have some sympathy for them in having to work around ED - it's almost a recipe made in heaven having these two companies paired up - they can bounce incompetence off each other (as they have both done for a number of years now).








On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4359314 - 05/24/17 10:14 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 797
leaf_on_the_wind Offline
Member
leaf_on_the_wind  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 797
Thankfully they are not releasing anything more, considering the hawk is sooooo unfinished its unreal

Its funny you mention ED forums being so censored , came across this gem today

[Linked Image]



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4359317 - 05/24/17 10:53 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
OMG, that is just comedy gold!! Thank you, ED forum mods, for proving 112th_Rossi right!


- Ice
#4359320 - 05/24/17 11:13 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,922
Paradaz Offline
Senior Member
Paradaz  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,922
UK
And the post has been deleted!

CENSORED


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
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