We're getting quite offtopic here, but c'mon, Ice, you know it's the fraction of price but the other way around. I've been considering that for a long time nad doing calculations, but one has to pay through the nose on all these ORBX/FTX and rare PMDG/A2A-level aircraft to bring up civ platforms anywhere close to DCS as far as appearance and flight modelling is concerned. While crappy performance stays the same, as there's only so much one can get out of ancient, 32-bit engines, utilizing modern hardware even worse than DCS. Not to mention LM charging full price for every major P3D update, something which even ED doesn't do (Black Shark to Black Shark 2 and Flaming Cliffs 2 to Flaming Cliffs 3 transitions were the only pathetic exceptions). It's even worse market segment monopoly than ED's! At the same time, I never paid full price for any ED module, hunting them down on various promo-sales only.

World map in civ sims is a factor I admit, so is real-time weather and superior ATC/navaids, but mostly for guys interested in long-distance IFR flying and I'm not one of them.

That being said, I do monitor the recent situation with a new bad boy in town (XP11) causing quite an uproar amongst civ sim customers. Even downlaoded the demo and gave it a try. I'm also curious about upcoming P3D v4 (will it or will it not be 64-bit? Correct me if I'm wrong, but still no official confirmation I believe?), watching people waiting for it like for the second coming of Christ (similar to DCS'ers waiting/hoping for the miracle of "The Merge"). Last but not least, there's this Dovetail company planning to bite a chunk of the market-cake as well with their upcoming "new" product and they pretend to be serious this time. Monopoly is slowly getting broken it seems.

If ANY new platform allows me flying something like A2A T-6 Texan over some well modelled scenery (even limited one) with stable 60 fps (ok, let's make it 50), for comparable price to DCS, I'll happily add it to my PC and will play both.

Don't try to burst Ice's reality bubble. He knows DCS costs more than everything else, because he just knows these things. He probably doesn't have a clue about the cost of FSX addons or a legitimate license cost for P3D (or what you get for your money) because he doesn't fly them, just like he hasn't flown DCS in many years.

A DC can do much more for the game than any single module can. Think of it like this --- a DC will breathe more life into modules that people have not touched in years. But you are correct though -- a DC is a tall order -- seeing as ED is struggling just to meet their own deadlines for stuff that they've been making for the past 10 years. You'd think they'd know how to do their job by now; you'd think they'd know how to make realistic estimates too!



No, it doesn't prove anything aside from the fact that many other developers and games have had a DC. Please stop trying to burn the strawman argument of "DC killed those developers," it didn't. The market just moved away from simulations. For all of those games that had a DC, I'm sure there's 10x more that did NOT have a DC yet still went the way of the dodo bird.



Unfortunately, this "technique" involves gutting their customers for everything they can.



So does FSX/P3D/XPlane. What makes DCS so special then?



Yet another myth. Sure, the A10C was from a military contract. But what else? Are there any recent work which we can say is derived from a military contract? Are there any recent work that you could imagine they'd have sold to some military agency?



That's the most creative excuse I've come across so far... maybe we can use it also when people complain about flight models being off...



You really still think ED needs a "gentle nudge"?? That's so cute!




Then you've not done your research properly or you've made a mistake in your calculations. Here, let me show you:
XPlane 11 - $59.99
Region - Entire World. Look up Ortho4XP.
Aircraft - ASK 21 (no need to look further if you want "the joys of flight") plus 8 other aircraft.

Now remind me again how much of navigation aids and ATC is modeled in DCS? What can you put forward in terms of "value for money" to compare to what I've shown above?



Well, if you insist on sticking to FSX/P3D, that's your problem, not mine.



Score another two points for civvie sims.... still think DCS's pricing is worth it? Also, I just did an IFR flight over my local area in XP11... IFR as in "I Follow Roads" and explored the route I take by car --- from the air. Located familiar landmarks, flew over my house, my place of work, the local retail park... and remember, I live in an area that is of no particular interest for even the best photoreal terrain maker but with XP11 and Ortho4XP, I was able to do this.

Then there's this bad boy:

link



Hahahahahahahahahahaaaaa!!! You call me out and insist it's the other way around and you've only just tried XP11? What was that about "doing calculations" and stuff? Back to the old drawingboard for you, my friend!



Unlike others that spout nonsense here in the forums, I know how to read and how to process information. Now did you have something useful to contribute? Some counter point with substance?
ps. The price for DCS modules are displayed on their website, so are the prices for FSX addons and P3D licenses available on display on their respective websites. I don't have to buy them to know how much they cost, just as I don't have to fly DCS to still know the program isn't worth my time. There's enough guinea pigs and there's this thing called "internet" and a procedure called "research"....

Please do help Art_J in trying to prove your statement that DCS does NOT cost more. Let's see which one of us "has a clue" and which one can only post useless replies.

Wow, people on here really are whiny....

You guys act like ED stole something from you. You act like this company owes you all of these things that you complain about not having. Few of you appreciate the things that they have done and how impressive the sim truly is. It's really hard to objectively argue that DCS isn't the best military sim on the market and yet all you people do is complain that it's not better!

DCS has some problems, some big ones like how missiles don't work up to RL standards and navaids are underutilized. We all know these things. They also have created a platform to accommodate the best flight models in the history of flight simulation! They've given military simmers a new level of fidelity in military planes. It's not perfect, BUT IT NEVER WILL BE.

It's truly amazing what our society has created in the form of entitlement. I'm not satisfied with anything, nothing is good enough, and I'm going to let everyone know just how far it is from my ever inflating expectations!!

Pointing out what is wrong with something is NOT whining , its called feedback

Taking money and not providing a decent/finished product to the buyer is not stealing,its p1ss poor business practice

Glad you admint DCS has "some" issues, sadly they dont seem too keen on sorting them out , they are moreinterested in milking money by selling campaigns

No one reasonably expects perfection , but the obvious bad bugs need to be fixed

The reason why people can point out the flaws in DCS on this site is because there is this weird thing called freedom of speech here

It amazing you come out with all this stuff on your first ever post , been lurking long time then , or maybe were you on here before under a different name ?

Hahaha!! Got that feeling a bit too...



We might be, but that's also because this is a place where you can whine without fear of censorship or being banned. While you can say that some folks here are "whiny," you can't say that what they're complaining about is untrue. Very, very important distinction there.



Well, they owe some of us Nevada since, um, 2010 or 2011....



Clearly you have not played other flight sims.
Also hard to take you seriously when you make such a claim (best military sim on the market) without evidence to back up your claim. Feel free to try again.



What were you saying about "best military sim" again??



Yeah, you're starting to sound familiar now...
Also LOL at "military simmers"....



Um, when MONEY has exchanged hands, I don't know about you, but I personally would feel ENTITLED to the item that I bought.... if you're happy to support people who make promises and then break those promises and repeat this cycle over and over and over and over while you continue to support them, that's on you. Don't expect others to behave the same way, and don't complain when those people start to complain.

Welcome to SimHQ!! Interesting first post....

Hi Matt.

The only post that seems whiny on here is yours. Now that the narrative of "Only Falcon 4 did a DC" has been brutally destroyed, all you are left with is "BUT YOU AREN'T ENTITLED TO IT!!"
It's not about who is entitled to what, Matt. It's called getting negative feedback from your customers because you fail to deliver what they want for...let's see...something around 14 years now (pointy nose multirole, dynamic campaign). I love your kind of thinking though, it is funny. It's right next to my other favourite "You are only allowed to critizise the devs after programming your own flightsim". Imagine a car manufacturer dealing with his customers this way when they point out flaws in his product. "Built your own car first!" "BUT YOU AREN'T ENTITLED TO IT!". Hahaha.

Business is a two-way street, has always been, nothing to do with "our society". You get people what they want, they are happy (most of the time), you get the moneys $$$. You continually don't, or you keep them waiting for 14 years, they get kinda worked up about it. It's normal. But saying "YOU AREN'T ENTITLED TO IT" or "BUILT YOUR OWN FLIGHTSIM" is not normal. It's deluded. What has really happened here is that ED lost its grip on reality thanks to their near monopoly on Mil-Jetsims. They thought they could get away with everything, but now have to find that they really don't. Duh.

Also, ED might want to think about that one: Maybe it wasn't such a good idea afterall to ban hammer customers from their forums even for mild criticism and on a scale unseen before. Because all that does is create a powder keg of very angry people somewhere else and in a place that you have NO control over, which will one day come back and bite you in the a$$. Well, until ED also has the monopoly on all flightsim forums. But that day seems far into the future, and it would cost much less energy for ED to just deliver what people are asking for rather than pursue that.

Not quite relevant really. If I wanted to fly ANY plane for as low cost as possible, I could stick with a freebie TF-51 + Caucasus map and make a silly argument it's "100% cheaper" than basic XP-11 content. So what? The problem is (and yes, I admit it is my "problem", if you want to call it that way) most of the planes I'm strictly interested in (warbirds and vintage jets - zero interest in any modern aviation) are available in good quality only as payware content (usually A2A and Milviz) for FSX/P3D. So are the good city sceneries for anything apart from US locations. Thus If I really wanted to sink my teeth into civvie sims now, it wouldn't be a question of me "insisting on sticking to FSX/P3D", but sadly, not having any goddamn alternatives. So yes, it would cost way more compared to promo deals I made with ED - for now, DCS, despite its pitiful shortcomings, is still better value for money for me, considering my aircraft preferences.

I'm not turning my blind eye on those shortcomings though. That's why I'm very curious about further development of XP11. Scenery-wise, I've seen some good results of OrthoXP being used, although even with relatively good XP auto-gen, custom-built sceneries are still necessary. Performance of 64-bit engine is also getting there. If only A2A changed their mind and decided to convert their P3D content to XP...

I sure hope they will, sooner or later. If they're smarter than ED business-wise, they can't stay and watch a hefty chunk of their customer base switching to new platform, without covering that platform as well.

Fair point! Thank you for making me realize that and apologies for my blindness in the matter.

However, my original point still stands. It just doesn't apply very much to you due to your preferences. Like I said, other sims offer a BIGGER MAP and a BETTER SELECTION of aircraft than DCS, so if "the joys of flying" was the issue, those other sims provide better value for money than DCS. Heck, even if you stick to FSX/P3D, I would've thought the VATSIM community alone makes for a much better immersion talking to "real" ATC compared to DCS' implementation.


I cannot recommend XP11 enough. I guess the main reason civvie sims never really caught on with me was because the places I wanted to fly in (usually my local area) only had the most basic of scenery and terrain mesh. I am unfortunate enough not to live near any major locations so I see the point of 3rd-party products not being interested in my local area. XP11 + Ortho4XP seems to be a very, VERY big step in the right direction as far as my "needs" go. EGNV is my local airport and I'm very, very impressed with how XP11 + Ortho4XP has allowed me to fly "IFR" -- I follow roads. There are some issues such as house placement on an open field or where the terrain clearly shows houses but no 3D scenery is placed, but these are things I'm willing to overlook as photo-real scenery was my only other option with the other sims and I'm sure you know how bad photo-real scenery looks when under 4,000ft AGL.

Whether your favorite aircraft will work with XP11 remains to be seen... I guess the initial question is whether they're available for XP10 in the first place... then whether these will work with XP11. A quick search shows a few aircraft available for XP10 at least... a Spitfire, a P38-J, a P-51, or a warbirds pack seem to be available... then again, no idea of the quality of these 3rd-party products. Quite annoying; 99% of 3rd-party aircraft are for FSX/P3D.

Carenado seems to be making aircraft for XP11 so if you were to consider modern civvie aircraft, suddenly you are exposed to a plethora of options and quite a big "map" to fly in.

Thanks, will do some research on these! I suppose I will end up buying XP11 eventually, but I'll wait a year more until it becomes more polished and until the modders and add-on makers produce more goodies for it. Unless P3D v4 becomes the best thing since sliced bread. I doubt it though, as for Lockheed Martin, entertainment-oriented software customers are still dirty peasants it seems.