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#4355625 - 05/05/17 11:13 PM The system itself  
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Schwalbe Offline
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I took a short browse just to see what is happening in the old land. Some guys mentioned TGP and MAV aligning here and on the official foras, and wondered why there aren't more ppl flying this sim. I agree with your thoughts, and it correlates to some things I want to say, I'm posting here (instead of there, I think that place is too tightly controlled, hope it's ok.) to gather up some of my thoughts. Falcon4.0 and many of its iterations, I still consider to this day the best combat flight sim. But I left, after spending many many good years on it, flying, modding, joining a virtual squadron, making friends, getting to the dev forums.. So why did I leave? I have had no personal disputes with anybody. I still consider almost all of them my friends and basically very good (some of them just beautiful) human beings. I still consider it a good game/sim. So why, as I pondered to myself constantly, on and off, for a very long time since 2013. Below are the results so far.

Beware wall of text! - I make some assumptions in it, but I believe them to be logical. Most importantly this text is not aimed at anybody at all, but I just want to type it out as sort of a closure for myself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

To sum it up, it has to do with the system of community source code modding. The root problem of it, as I have found, is stability and ease of use. Essentially, it sets up an entry barrier to a lot of people wanting to get into this sim. It is somewhat like open source software, while it offers robust functionality, getting the hang of it requires a lot of effort. While it offers rich features, the stability issues makes it harder to get a smooth user experience. But the above could be an over generalization. What we have here is reviving an old piece of abandonware (software dev wise, I guess the law says otherwise) by a group of volunteers. Very talented and extremely capable, yet still volunteers. They have achieved insurmountable heights, I used to say it is like a miracle for the simming community, yet the effort and time available is still bound by whatever real life graciously spares.

For one, bug fixing is boring. When I'm modding for fun, rather than fulfilling an obligation, I (or anybody else) will naturally go for the fun elements like adding new features, rather than the tedious, repetitive and unproductive. This leads to the sometimes funny events, like a 6 years old pretty serious bug is finally fixed when a new feature is added. Two, I'm modding someone else's work and not my own. Remember the abandonware, remember that old members leave, and new members join. When another dev group transferred to the BMS side they popped in irc to say hello, so we asked so what are you doing nowadays? Well, a lot of avionics work, cause we're just starting and it's easy to do. I can relate the meaning now, drawing a line and writing a letter on the HUD is easy, but programming the AI to do complex reactions or hunt down a CTD would probably require understanding of the entire software to begin with, or at least someone else's work who may have already left the scene 10 20 years ago. I Wouldn't Know What's Really Happening with someone else's work, at least not at first glance, but it takes a lot of effort just to figure it out. The solution should be proper documentation, but paperwork is an extra burden especially when one is already burning the midnight oil without material returns, and docs from the original work probably no longer exists.

What this problem affects a lot I think, is the dynamic campaign. Those with dev/modding experience would know that the DC requires a substantially higher degree of stability, ease of use (and variety) to function smoothly. While in TEs one can make do with bugs and hiccups and continue for role-play purposes, dynamic campaigns simply need EVERYTHING to function correctly, because everything, whereby there're a lot of them, is dynamically interconnected and constantly interacting with each other, and the result of their interactions have direct influence to the campaign outcome. I always knew it and know it even clearer now having made big campaign mods on my own. "TEs have less shaky parts." Tis a direct dev quote.

Campaign mode also requires more of the "fun" element, not repeated procedures. Realistic Maverick switchology adds realism to the sim which is all good, however from a practical standpoint how many times is one supposed to do it for one night, a week, a month... I'd asked an option to turn it off on the dev forum back in '12 or '13, at least for campaign mode, especially for ones that just want to hop onto a jet on the FLOT, blow some stuff up and not even bother with takeoff and landing. But it fell on deaf ears. BMS is mostly catering to (v)pilots in the squadrons user wise and where most of the feedback is listened. Most squadrons at least at that time only do TEs, for us it had been ZERO campaign sorties even. A full rampstart TE and full ingress certainly have ample time and opportunity to do everything procedurally and properly. So for them certainly, maverick ops are probably even SOP. But for the casual, the preference is not clear cut, it can very well be on the other side, as our thoughts here. I was one of the "hardcore" squadron guy. But I also enjoy the casual campaign flying a lot, or testing things for modding, where the quicker, the better. This issue here still basically is, when the time and effort available is limited, if it were me I would surely also prioritize to my core user group first.

To me, at least, Falcon 4.0 = Dynamic Campaign, first and foremost. Especially nowadays, for systems modelling and procedures, there exists another sim, where there are no dynamic... anything. Yes, I still think F4 has the best DC currently out there. But the community modding model is unable to service it to a top notch condition. This specific issue aside, the new bugs and issues that each update always introduces, the hassles of getting everybody sorted in MP, the "3-4 weeks" but it's actually 6 years to "Someday never comes", the incompetent AI enemy in a cooperative game, all played a part. Even the open modding aspect which I value highly on par with the DC, where the user itself is able to mod the sim in whichever way at his own liberty, becomes problematic, because while the database is open, the source code is not, but for all intents and purposes privately owned, which is not an issue by itself, but being changed with not much say from the user part, which is.



Fundamentally, while ppl know that having the source code grants one the ability to do anything within the software, for human beings, working on a volunteer basis, based solely on interest and spare time, without prior documentation explaining things... our time and abilities are limited. All very good talented and very nice guys, with great intents and minds, I can say it with all the love in my heart, and they have achieved so so much. But, the system itself, is not without its own death spot.









If you have bothered to read it thus far (plz go find something else better to do, honestly!....) and you're new to the sim, do not be discouraged. It is an AMAZING sim. Especially compared to anything else that is currently on offer. If you can over come the initial hurdles of getting into it, I still highly recommend. You will most likely be blown away, as I have, if you are ever curious about how a real pilot, a real combat sortie, a real Air Force operates.

It's just only for myself, I mirror some of the sentiments within the sim community (probably from the older guys, like us..): the genre could use some new blood. And mostly for myself, time for a proper goodbye and turn over this chapter in my mind. There is a chance that I will return, which is when the source code is no longer evolving. By which time all the problems are known and static; what happens has already happened. By then it becomes a good time to fly it, and mod it, with less hassle.

Last edited by Schwalbe; 05/05/17 11:14 PM.
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#4355670 - 05/06/17 07:37 AM Re: The system itself [Re: Schwalbe]  
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theOden Offline
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I think I get your point.

As I have noticed some additional features such as Mav/TGP and Laser in TRNG by default seems to be added based on virutal squadrons requirements I guess we less capable dudes just have to adopt to all these changes that makes no sense to us.

It is after all someone else's late night hobby we have at hand and all for free.

Maybe it is getting built around the needs of some "inner circle" group of e-pilots, well that's totally fine and that is probably how I would do it too if I spent my evenings creating stuff for free like this (and no, I would not spend half of that time looking for bugs or CTD causes but those would probably be fixed as one find those lines while coding something else).

But to us the campaign has gone pretty good, from Tiger Spirit to the current Balkans BoP.
All it takes is a server restart every 24 hours.

But we have not had huge number of pilots on at the same time, who knows what would happen if so.



Originally Posted by Schwalbe
..If you have bothered to read it thus far (plz go find something else better to do, honestly!....)..


No worries, I am having breakfast looking for AAR's of US time zone flyers smile

#4355696 - 05/06/17 01:15 PM Re: The system itself [Re: theOden]  
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DBond Offline
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Originally Posted by theOden


No worries, I am having breakfast looking for AAR's of US time zone flyers smile


Yes, apologies. It was late and I just went to bed. A quasi-AAR is up now.


As to Schwalbe's points. I also think I see where you are coming from. Personally, I take a much less cynical view. I love this sim, this mod, the campaign and flying it, be it online or off.

I think about every great sim I've flown over the years. That's a long list. Take MiG Alley for example. A great sim, that I played the hell out of. Fantastic dogfighting, a dynamic campaign, so much win in that one. But I have not flown it in 15 years.

But last night, and just about every night for the past few months I flew BMS. Oden and I have flown quite a bit of MP. To me, I see a great sim, that is still a great sim. It's not that it used to be a great sim. And that's all down to these talented modders that do the work and give it to us for free.

I get the point about Mavericks, I do. I agree even, and I just don't use them. I think that I can destroy more, more quickly and with far less hassle with CBU.

But I wouldn't want anything changed to make it more simple for simplicity's sake. I want every thing to be as close to real life as it can be. It's then up to me to choose to learn it, use it, or not. As Oden alluded to, the 'realism' tack that the BMS guys take is exactly what I would do if I were able to do this. Sure as the pilot I would be thinking "It would be great to just switch to boresight and lock and fire like I used to do in AF". I would routinely get off all six Mavs in a single pass in that sim. But it didn't simulate the real-life procedures. Same with the Datalink. In AF it was more simple. AF did the datalink for you, automatically. Yes, easier, more simple. But I still prefer BMS. I like being 'forced' to set it up each time I fly.

For me, there is a sense of satisfaction I feel when I park my jet, raise the canopy and shut down that big GE motor after a sortie. Each and every switch thrown, every mode engaged, every contact sorted, every bomb dropped adds to the sense of satisfaction. Hard to describe perhaps. There is no doubt that I feel it more in BMS than in any version of F4 I've flown before, and that's all of them.

Quote
There is a chance that I will return,


Good enough for me. I hope you will. thumbsup



Last edited by DBond; 05/06/17 07:11 PM.

No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4355791 - 05/06/17 11:55 PM Re: The system itself [Re: Schwalbe]  
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- Ice Offline
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Sorry, but I'm not clear on your gripe here. You're complaining about the Maverick... then you're complaining about modding the sim.... then you're complaining about the virtual squadrons?? Can someone explain what the real issue here is?

If it's about the Mavericks, and having to turn it on and boresight it, well, that'll only take you a few minutes. IIRC, Maverick warmup time is 3 minutes. Unless you insist on flying TEs where you're 10nm from target, I don't see the point in the complaint. Even if you were to start on the RUNWAY start and power on your Mavs then, I suspect they'll be good to go once you're over the target area... or you're really, REALLY close to the FLOT!! biggrin


- Ice
#4355829 - 05/07/17 05:35 AM Re: The system itself [Re: Schwalbe]  
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theOden Offline
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haha Ice now you're really confused smile

I guess the point at hand is why there are so few falcon BMS pilots in multiplayer world and the complexity could be one issue. The complexity of things that really doesn't add to the sim to most people such as being served a laser designator system in training mode.

But I still stand ok with it and just opt out of things I cannot find effort to learn (mav/tgp) and just do the LIST-0-5 for the laser for those missions. The laser issue was just a one time isse for me but it sure wasted a more than one hour long flight for me.

In short, the complaining is from us others and this was a suggestion to give some background etc.

#4355834 - 05/07/17 06:57 AM Re: The system itself [Re: Schwalbe]  
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Schwalbe Offline
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No complaints. Only a sayonara, take care and all the best to an old love really, others will adore you but your faults gradually grew on me. And the faults are not very obvious to me that it took me a long time to figure out.

Honestly if i had a facebook account i'd just write something there. But FB weirds me out a bit nowadays.

#4355847 - 05/07/17 10:43 AM Re: The system itself [Re: Schwalbe]  
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- Ice Offline
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If it's the lack of players on the MP arena, one user said it could have something to do with everyone's fear of "messing up in front of someone else." You could fly the same mission 5x in single player, pause when you need to regain SA, and post an AAR of your best flight; you couldn't do any of those in MP. As for complexity, well, I call bollocks on that one. People see all of the videos and hear all of the conversations and think that every one of their Falcon flights would be like that. What they fail to realize is that Falcon can be as simple or as complex as they want. Heck, there's even an invulnerability option in the sim!! biggrin You can start from a cold-and-dark jet, bring it to life, take off, get above the cloud layer, get to the IP, drop below the clouds, find your target, realize that your bomb settings won't work, change your bomb settings, weave through SAM engagement zones, drop your bombs, RTB, find out you don't have enough gas to make it very far past the FLOT, find a tanker, join up, get to home plate, find out that the weather has really moved in, then pull out the approach plates and make an instrument landing, then taxi to the hangar and shut down. Or you can start on the runway on a clear day, have a wave of SEAD flights before you, drop your GBUs from Angels 22, then go home. As complex or as simple as you want it to be....

Having said that, "simple" in this sim would still be a bit more complex than any arcade sim....

Schwalbe, still not sure I understand why you're leaving. What faults exactly are you talking about?
If it's "burnout," I fully understand that. I, myself, despite designing a pit for simming, am just returning to Falcon after more than a year's haitus. Taking a break is fine... go enjoy other games for now! Hopefully, Falcon will be better when you come back.


- Ice
#4355872 - 05/07/17 02:21 PM Re: The system itself [Re: Schwalbe]  
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Schwalbe Offline
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-Ice.. I had typed a long reply. But at the end of day I think this is still a public forum and by writing it out it'll always seem like I'm seeking an argument of sorts... which I'm really really not.

Turns out there's this thing called wordpress which is like a "blog", I somehow got it when MSN's old myspace.com went offline. I wrote it out over there so just a blog/diary thing for myself. Nobody would bother to read it, but I can write it more "authentic" and truer to myself, I think. But it is still accessible to anybody, so if you wanna follow up I can just PM you a link.

#4355986 - 05/07/17 10:08 PM Re: The system itself [Re: Schwalbe]  
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I would like to think that we're all adults here (although some people don't act like it!! LOL!!) and we each take responsibility for our own actions. I'm interested in what's happening to you, what's brought you to this point. If you think that's better expressed through PM, check your inbox smile


- Ice

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