Hi all,

Attempting to get back into Falcon 4.0 again since 2007, I dusted off my faithful FLCS and TQS (with SWF22 upgrade), managed to find a Creative SB Live 5.1! Card for cheap and installed XP on a desperate drive.
In case you wonder... why not buy a new HOTAS, well the financial committee threw that idea out of the window and I figured that I first wanted to see if I could get back in the saddle again with BMS 4.33 before throwing lots of money at modern HOTAS.

So after having created a new FLCS+TQS profile from scratch for BMS 4.33.1, I discovered a new problem. I would consistently stall my F-16C in combat or during maneuvering, unless I was flying in full AB.
Anything MIL power and I'd bleed speed like a pig on any turn and fall out of the sky.

After seriously doubting my flying abilities (I'm rusty but surely not this rusty?) and my BMS installation (did something go wrong here? It's flying like a Cessna 172??) .. I finally found the problem!

My TQS pot is dead for the lower half of the 60-degrees active range. This means that for any throttle setting below full MIL, TQS is sending 0 to the PC. So while I am actually at half throttle, my engine has actually gone back to idle. So any turn results in immediate loss of energy until I just stall the darn plane. Duh.


I've tried cleaning the pot, offsetting the wipers to a different part of the carbon track but to no avail. I think my CTS 295-S00100 9721 pot has had it. And of course, googling for a replacement online is not yielding any results.

Is there backroom/secret market place where anyone on here still knows where to get these pots?
A normal, full 270 degree pot isn't going to work here but are there parts from a non-joystick (read: guitar) CTS 295 parts that I could use to refurbish my own 295? Like, using the carbon track?

Any other ideas to bring this TQS back to life? I mean, everything else works just fine on it and it's been with me since 1996, so I'd hate to ditch it. I have been reading up on USB conversions but I'm no hero with electronics and I haven't found a clear step-by-step guide to do so (Sorry I'm thick in that area)... and also that wouldn't really fix my pot issue, as I'd still need one of those.

In short, I'm very open to wallet-friendly suggestions

Although pot are a very common thing - in case 100k B type pot, is 99% sure that you don't find 60 degrees "electric travel" pot in electronics stores - they are made for joystick industry.
You can't replace then with 270/300 degrees "electric travel" pot.

Your best choice is try buy CH Products spare pot, is CTS with the same physical dimensions (important detail for replace) of TQS pot and has the needed 60º "electric travel" - just don't tell then that want for Tm stick.

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php/topic/7609-replacement-pots/

Thanks, I'll definitely give them a try as well.

Also, I read somewhere (but I am not sure) that the Thrustmaster Top Gun (original) joystick uses the same CTS 295 pots - is that true? Some of these are pretty cheap on eBay and perhaps that could be a source as well.

Highly probable, see one there in throttle - but in this Top Gun the pot in gimbal is different, but are more than one type of Top Gun stick.

http://www.vikingweb.it/wordpress/?p=482

But since FLCS TQS is old gameport device and at time pot are used to read resistance and not voltage variation (like in today USB joysticks), test with any 100K B type (linear response - audio/guitar pot are not suitable, they are A type logarithmic response), you find around.

Maybe the electrical travel angle don't matter, if matter increase the pot value, e.g. ~470K so resistance variation in the read area (60 degrees) will be around 100K.

I try install a HALL sensor in one TQS with SWF22 chips but don't work well, probable due the use of resistance instead voltage variation (HALL measure voltage variation only).

So in order to do a USB conversion, we would remove the original PCBs (with SWF22 chips on them) - correct?

But do we also need to replace all the pots with newer pots that measure voltage variation instead of resistance?

Also, can we leave the 3 shift register chips (in the FLCS handle) in place? One thing I do not understand (because I know nothing about this stuff!) is why is it required to rewire all the switches? Is it not sufficient to replace the PCBs and solder in the required resistors in the wiring for each switch?

Yes, USB conversion implicate in remove all original PCB circuits, reuse only buttons, HAT's, wires and pot's - if they are in good shape - a pot can read resistance and voltage variation, depends on how the controller circuit use this, this 100K is not ideal for USB, wheres around 10K is better, but will work (I reuse CH 100K pot's in this joystick gameport conversions for USB) (1).

In F16FLCS joystick is ease to do because the Shift Register inside grip can be reused with Arduino PRO Micro or Micro or Teensy 2.0+ or ++2.0 with MMJoy2 firmware, this firmware support Shift Register.

So the work basically is remove original PCB's, rewire pots with 3 wires - gameport use only 2, and make a connector to match Shift Register cable coming from grip.

In TQS will be need more work - I don't know if there are used Shift Register or Diode Matrix, depends on how is is more easy rewire all buttons/HAT/pot.

And that thing called 'eraserhead" - a kind of pressure mouse need be replaced with 4/5 way switch (e.g. Alps) or analog thumbstick (similar to Cougar), firmware don't support their mouse protocol.

Can be used one controller for both devices, but since Arduino is cheap ($6 - $20) is more practical and easy use one in each controller, make then standalone.

In MMJoy2 topic there are examples of this type of USB conversion.

(1) Ideal is use contactless in joystick axis, example TLE5010 that can be bough from China for affordable price already assembled in PCB and with magnets.

The resulting "new joystick" will be "PnP" using Windows HID drives, but can't use that Thrustmaster keyboard software anymore.

A similar freeware keymapper is Joystick Gremlin, for basic things can be used Joy2Key, Xpadder, SVMapper (the first cost $10, the last is free).

Thanks, so for the FLCS essentially you will not have to rework the stick part at all - just replacing the bottom PCB and rewiring the pots and stick-wring (coming from the shift registers) should be all that is required?

What type of 10K pods should we use? Are these more generally available than the special pods we need in the original FLCS/TQS?

Also, with this conversion in place, will this be seen as a 16 or 32-button DirectX HID joystick/game-input controller and we are no longer sending keyboard commands but mapping BMS functions to the direct buttons?
And will the shift functions still work after the conversion? (E.g. assign multiple button modes depending on the use of the Pinky Switch or the position of the Dogfight Switch on the TQS?)

I'm really confused as how the shift functions with both Pinky and TQS Dogfight Switch work after USB conversion (or after TUSBA) especially as the TQS becomes a separate device?

Hello Taz,

to repair the TQS, a pot from any cheap gameport joystick will do the job. Most of them use 100K with 60° . But the best quality are the ones from CH-Products.

If you convert the stick, it's a simple DirectX joystick with a bunch of buttons. No more programming of keyboard macros and no more use of the versatility of the old software. No programmable antenna dials, dogfight mode switch states or pinky button codes anymore. You can use the antenna knobs only as analog axis, which the simulator itself must support (Falcon BMS does support it!).
Same goes for the mouse in the TQS. You could convert it to a thumbstick and try to get it running with something like Joy2Mouse (which is more imprecise, then the old eraser hat) or put a simple coolie hat in.

That's the drawback of the convertion. Only way to keep the versatility of this old stuff, is a very complicated way in terms of programming this old HOTAS (still booting in DOS via floppy or dualboot) and modifying it in such a way that only the main control-axis run over USB (not the antenna dials).
For this you absolutely must still have a PS/2 port for the keyboard connection, a seriell port (RS232) for the mouse (the seriell to PS/2 adapter method isnt working for the mouse on most mainboards since XP --> mouse cursor stops after one milimeter of travel) and a gameport for the needed power ( the keyboard alone isn't enough, still have to use +5V from the gameport) at your PC. Many new mainboards didn't have those old intefaces anymore. Haven't tried PCI PS/2 and RS232 addon cards for now, cause I still have mainboards which have both connections. For the gameport, every soundcard does the job. If you are interested I could explain the whole method. On principle you use the HOTAS as you always did, only the flightstick, the throttle, the rudder axis and the second trigger stage (TG2) run via an usb interface board. The rest remains original. The now unused FLCS digital X/Y axis, TQS digital throttle axis and RCS digital rudder axis support can now be used for extra programmable dials, in the way Thrustmaster did it with the antenna knobs.

The other way is getting an used Cougar, which is much better then the FLCS TQS in case of programmability (they have expanded the functionality of the old DOS software) and runs from Windows 98 to Windows 10. The Warthog has no more ability to download programmings in the chip of HOTAS itself. The TARGET software has always to run in the background and as far as I know, the Warthog runs only at Windows 7 (maybe Vista) or above. Don't know if it is running at XP too, cause I only read the information about it.

The easiest way is to convert the gear to a DirectX controller. The hard- and software, Sokol mentioned (Arduino Pro micro etc. & MMJoy2) is really superb in case of configuring all the DirectX axis and buttons ( I use it myself for an airliner 4lever throttle quadrant which I'm running with FS9 and FSX). It's amazing precisely (no spiking etc.) and if you only will play Falcon BMS 4.33.3 or other modern sims (which allow all configurations in the game itself), there is no need for the complicated way that I go, but if you still want to programm keyboard macros or play some older simulations (Janes series etc.) with dualbooting to win 9X the simple convertion isn't a real satisfiable solution.

Yes, only is need fit in base the new USB controller, and add one wire in each potentiometer.



Pot for joystick with USB controller can be ~10k B type (linear taper), but is the same problem you have for replace now, need be 30~60º "electric travel" pot, that seems available only in Mars shops.

Why a contactless sensor became a interesting solution, more important than be spikes free, theoretical unlimited life span, is they availability.



MMjoy2 customizable firmware allow define a joy or throttle button to be "shift" for other buttons - but for each controller only, not for both, need one "shift" in each (unless use the same controller for both).

But this "shift" can be done with keymapper soft (Joy2Key, XPadder, SVMapper...), like you do with Fox (or CH Manager, or Saitek SST, or tmW TARGET),e.g. Joy2Key, will allow select 2 layers of commands (of 16) with this Dogfight Switch.

But Joy2Key (XPadder, SVMapper...) are not created for flight joysticks, but for simple gamepad, don't allow divide axis in bands, nor create "cheaters" in axis, like aileron trim for planes that don't have aileron trim.


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TUSBA is for Cougar TQS that has different circuit than F16FLCS/F22PRO.

As I try explain above you can't use this controller in the way that you are used, but as a PnP HID controller, assigning buttons commands direct in game controls GUI.
DCSW is very flexible for this, allow set "shift" (modifiers) and "mode" (switches) direct in controls, some people prefer map controls there that use that cumbersome TARGET.

But if you are old timer like Viper1970, leave your HOTAS original and try buy CH Products pot, or get CH sticks used in Ebay for use their pot's, is the best quality pot used in joysticks until today.

Modern joysticks don't use pot anymore in main axis but contactless sensors - some use pot in secondary axis. Only CH sticks still using pot, but their joys is the same vintage models of 1999, with now outdated (8 bits, 256 "steep") electronics.

Ha Ha Sokol,

yes I know I'm an oldtimer . It's so sad that HOTAS like the Cougar not produced anymore. With it you could play anything from the stoneage of flightsimulation to even brandnew sims in Windows 10. Once programmed and downloaded it's just the same as you would use your keyboard. You could even use it with flightgear in a Linux OS if you want. I hate those "You have to run a software in the background" joysticks like most of the programmable stuff is today. You have to pay about nearly 500$ for such a "great" gear and if the company closes it's doors and a new OS appears, you couldn't get any new drivers for it. All you have then is a 500$ paperweight! One of the best examples is the Logitech G940.

And with DirectX only you always bound to the configuration management which the sim allows you to do. Good in new sims like MSFS or Falcon BMS, but really bad with mods like EECH Allmods, which still hasn't the option to configure the joysticks or even the keyboard in the game itself. I know there are programs for configuring buttons with macros, but all the stuff I've tested did not work really good or stable.

EECH Allmods for example, is still the only real combat helo sim which is available today (I know there is DCS Blackshark, but there is nothing with US helos except ARMA which isn't a real sim). Most modern military sims are old stuff which the community modded. If you like WWII sims it's not a problem to get games but for the modern era there isn't much out there.

That's why I did this unconventional way. Once the thing is programmed it runs even with Windows 10, but to get this "Frankensticks" running wasn't easy at all! It had cost me many sleepless nights until I had a solution. BUT IT ONLY RUNS AS LONG AS YOU ARE ABLE TO GET A PS/2, RS232 AND GAMEPORT CONNECTION for a computer. In near future when such hardware isn't available anymore my whole pit is worth nothing! That's why I decided to make this thing now and then will play my collected sims from the Win98 era till Falcon BMS 4.33 (which probably will be one of the last which my pit is able to run) until I pass away .

I think I have a few spare pots, send me a pm with your address and I'll send them to you.

Thanks for that insightful post So pretty much ANY gameport joystick will do? That will make things easier as pretty much anything in New Zealand is very hard to get. With only 4 million people, there is a lot less of everything here. So a lot fewer people having PCs. And an even smaller part playing flight simulation games (in the good old days when we had so many simulators to play!) and even fewer will have a good joystick or HOTAS....

I think you can count the number of FLCS+TQS in NZ on 1 hand and those with SWF22 are even fewer! (Like mine). I do love that SWF22 upgrade though, I bought it in 2001 when it was released. No more dual boot into DOS. You can program straight from Windows 2000 and XP and very quick too. No more keyboard and PS2 cables - everything is done through the DB15 port. I would hate to not have that functionality so for now, my first aim is to get my TQS working again.

I think the HOTAS market is just so frustrating. Look at the Cougar and Warthog. You spend a fortune and you still get a product you need to spend even more on to keep it working. And then they stop making it (for no reason???) and even worse... then they stop selling you the parts for it!!!!!

Aside from a bad pot my FLCS and TQS are doing very fine. The SWF22 upgrade certainly resolved some spiking issues though I never had any real major issues since I bought them both in 1996.

Only because Microsoft decided, for no reason whatsoever, no longer support DB15 gameports under Vista/Windows 7....... I do have my Creative SB Live! 5.1 working perfectly under Windows 7 64-bit INCLUDING the Gameport. (Combination of KX Project drivers and Daniel_K's hacked Vista x64 drivers for the SB Live! from which I took the gameport drivers and forced them to install under Windows 7).

However, I have no way of getting the SWF22 drivers loaded into Windows 7. Under XP, this is all a rather passive affair - XP is unaware of the SWF22 FLCS + TQS until I load the driver in the Game Controller Control Panel (joy.cpl) using the ADD button. Once XP has become aware of the SWF22 driver, it finds the stick and ... it works! Roll drums.

But Windows 7 has no button for you to load the driver..... so it won't find it (it's not an active device like a HID USB controller that broadcasts its presence). .. If only I can get that driver loaded, I'm convinced I can get it to work given that the gameport itself seems to be fine. Perhaps with a registry hack maybe?

Anyway first I need to get this darned TQS working again, even if its only under Windows XP, and then we can have a peek at next steps.

I can find several Microsoft SideWinder 3D Pro gameport joysticks for cheap here - can I use the pots of those?
UPDATE: Never mind, the Microsoft Sidewinder 3D used a digital light sensor and wasn't using potentiometers!! Sigh...

Oooooh my hero!!!! PM is coming your way ... as soon as I find out how. LOL

Not exactly any. Besides electrical specifications -100K, B type (linear taper), 60º - you need a pot with same or similar physical dimensions, axis diameter, or will be need make adaptations in joystick gimbal.For example in CH gimbal the pot axis is part of gimbal, remove the pot and gimbal fall apart.

You will find these metal case pot like used in TQS in in old gameport joystick from Tm, CH, some old Saitek.

This for example:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/F-16-Combat-Stick-CH-Products-USB-Flight-Stick-/162403102593?hash=item25cffaaf81:g:LicAAOSw32lYq4N1
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COLLECTORS-Factory-Sealed-Vintage-Flight-Stick-CH-Products-Flightstick-pro-/122373093325?hash=item1c7e0137cd:g:OKUAAOSw4YdYy1tF
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Top-Gun-Thrustmaster-Paramount-Flight-Controller-Joystick-15-Pin-For-Pc-/112381600767?hash=item1a2a7723ff:g:LzsAAOSwHptY~Pzd

Cougar start use (~2000) a small 11x11 plastic pot instead those old with metal case, you have trouble to adapt one these, anyway this pot was discontinued.
In Microssoft Sidewinder that use pot (latest versions) is similar 11x11 plastic case pot.

Polyshine make "joystick" pot - but seems under order for industry.

https://uploads.mudspike.com/optimized/3X/4/5/4559030e58d4bdac790854a30408532714af3aed_1_690x325.jpg
http://polyshine.sell.everychina.com/sell-rotary-potentiometers.html


"B plan" to try, mod a 270 degress (100k, B type) pot you find around, like this old recipe - If I remember correct done by Australian guy for TQS in that "good ol'days'.

screencastcertificity.com

I was thinking about plan B indeed, if I am unable to obtain the correct pots.

What are your thoughts on Plan C? Use a 470K linear pot instead? My thinking is that perhaps it's not important to have exact 0 to 100K Ohm resistance but have the resistance increase by 100K Ohm?

So with 270 degrees of movement, a 470K pot delivers from 0 to 470K Ohm resistance over the entire range so that is 1740 Ohm per degree of rotation, which means an increase of 104K Ohm over 60 degrees?

Regarding Plan B:




If we take the original TQS pod (CTS 295-S0100) for reference.... is the entire CTS pod 100K (from 0 to 270 degrees) and its only using 60 degrees range? Or are these special pots delivering 0-100K in 60 degrees only?

If so, then if we take Plan B, then will we not have the issue that the entire range from 0-270 degrees deliveres 0-100K Ohm and therefore, if we leave only 60 degrees, then we will be unable to generate the required resistance?

Hi Taz,

if you go for plan B, keep in mind to get real near to 100K. For using the TQS as analog axis it doesn't matter if it does not exactly match 100K, but if you want to use it in digital mode it should be really near 100K. If the resistance is to high or to low you get trouble calibrating it! Had this problem with one TQS PCB I connected a linear poti at (was a throttle mod) which was statet as 100K, but had only about 75K. Digital calibration was impossible!

It doesn't matter if the pot uses 270° or 180° or 60° but it must be near 100K Ohm. The angle of rotation is just a mechanical matter. The WCS2 for example uses 270° pots connected to a gear-wheel. Theoretical if it is possible to put such a gear-wheel connection into the TQS, you could use any linear standard 100K pot.

I use some 100K linear slide control pots in my pit, which are connected to TQS and WCS2 PCB's. No trouble calibrating them. I have market the zones for idle and afterburner, so that it's easier for digital calibration, that's all. Was a bit of experimentation to find the right place for the zones, but after all it's no problem as long as the pots have 100K.

The 100K is in ~60 degrees range. See in Polyshine datasheet, the "reading" area: https://uploads.mudspike.com/optimized/3X/4/5/4559030e58d4bdac790854a30408532714af3aed_1_690x325.jpg

The conductive varnish is for limit the resistance to this are area, unfortunately I don't remember the resistance of the pot used in that 'mod' - this is from the "RiP" Frugasworld around 2001/2002.

But based on Vipr1970 experience you should try this with 100K - 270º pot.



That's a good "B plan", get a good quality 100K, B type 270 degrees pot (Bourns, Spectrol, Alps or even CTS) -plenty available, and use gears for make the throttle movement turn the pot ~270º.
BTW - Not sure if TQS handle turn 60º - measure this. With today 3D printer accessible is ease make gears with necessary ratio.

Other option to try is use a "slide" pot, they have short travel, and use R/C linkage for move their wiper - the different angular velocity between the turn of throttle grip and pot wiper horizontal movement may require curve is axis response to match, but probable is negligible for the use.

adult image sharingcertificity.com

100K "slide" pot

This "dual gang" means that this pot has double resistive trail, use only one side.

Ah well.... Debolestis should hopefully still have some CH HP-100 pots which are the same, so I'll keep my fingers crossed.
(And think of a good thank you present!!)

Otherwise we'll have to get creative.

However, I did find a FLCS + TQS set in Australia for sale. The price is very reasonable but the shipping to NZ is going to be expensive (even from Australia) so I'm a little reluctant to go down that path given that I can only use the setup under Windows XP (32bit) anyway.

However, they would be a great donor set for a digital conversion project, especially if I can do that while still flying my restored SWF22 set.

If I were to use only one Arduino/Teensy board for both controllers (located in the TQS as it has more space maybe?), could I still use the FLCS shift registers to drive the shift function across both controllers?

I've been reading up on programming the Teensy but surely I should be able to program these buttons with actual keypresses, or not? See here:
https://forum.pjrc.com/threads/26706-Detecting-the-state-of-a-switch

I'm using the FLCS and TQS on 1 Teensy board, I should be able to cross reference the state of the Dogfight Switch and assign different key presses according to that state?

So yes, I'd be looking to use the HAT switches as actual keyboard presses rather than DirectX joystick inputs and considering that I'm only using this for BMS, I don't mind hardcoding the Teensy for it.
(And I can replace the old download switch with a Teensy download button to reprogram it for anything else when I need it?)

For control both stick and TQS as one USB device get Teensy ++2.0 or Arduino Micro (ATMEGA43u4) this models have more pins for inputs and make things easy.

I don't see how change Shift Register operation with a ON-OFF-ON switch with 3 pins - that is what are under this "dogfight" switch" (I have a F22PRO/TQS disassembled there).

Shift Register communication with controller in base is done trough serial protocol and use 6 wires.

In this old Tm stick this "modes" was done in their firmware.

MMjoy2 allow do some changes in firmware like change the buttons layout, the "shift", timers, set response curves, but AMTEGA32u4 has no memory for keyboard emulation - limited option was tested in some version of firmware but later the author drop in favor of LED output for War Thunder, his preferred "flight game".

If instead use Shift Register use Diode Matrix (that is too supported by MMjoy2 firmware) can use this switch to alternate 2 lines of matrix and have a different layer ("mode") for buttons.
In Cobra M5 grip "modes" is done in this way with a 3 position slider switch - maybe replacing the switch with DPDT, but for DIY the result increase in wires and complication don't make this much attractive.

Other possible issue is that various buttons layers in hardware for F16+TQS will surpass Windows Dinput 32 buttons limitation, this is not problem for IL-BoS (up to 64) and DCSW (up to 128 buttons), or using keyboard emulation for others (IL-2 2001) but a no go for old games.

So if plan go trough HID USB way, think in do that "modes" with software (keymaper) - solution that will not work for old games that don' allow map buttons, or recognize more than 1 controller.

Of course, this is in the case of use a available firmware, like MMjoy2, EasyJoy32 One or read to use USB controller like BU0836, DSD, etc.

If you are used to programming can create firmware for Arduino and maybe include that "old timer" functions.

BTW - I find that even DCS Black Shark - a 2008 game- looks "old" now, I don't imagine playing that old games, not even IL-2 (2001) anymore, today "flight games" are very mehh... but we became spoiled with better graphics.