Do you need to include the shift function in the Teensy programming as well?
Or do the legacy TM Shift Register chips take care of this already, with the effect that when you use the Shift / Pinky Switch on the FLCS, that the receiving Teensy board already "sees" this as a different DX button press?
If shifted buttons are sees as unique button presses, won't we be running out 32 buttons on the FLCS alone, even without considering the TQS?
Sorry for the noob questions, I'm just trying to get my head around what is possible here - considering that I know nothing about the electronic side of this but once it gets to software and writing code, I'm all good with that.
Update: Been looking at a ton of videos and blogs, etc... And it came to me that the Arduino can either be programmed as a USB HID Joystick .. or as a HID Keyboard.. but not both at the same time. So, at the risk sounding rather dense here but how about using two Arduino's? One to handle the basic joystick movement and throttle axis (incl. the rotaries) whereas all other buttons are interpreted as keyboard commands through the second Arduino board? Just a thought?
what you thought about the two Arduinos could be done. You could connect a Pro Micro for example to the axis and for better compatibility for the guns also the trigger to the DX1-button of this board. For the keyboard emulation you can put an Arduino Mega 2560 R3 in. A guy from New Zealand (your home country) has programmed a software for the FSX & FS9 to do keyboard emulation with such a card connected to any kind of input device (also a HOTAS). He made also a program called Link2FS ( http://www.jimspage.co.nz/arduino_keys_beta.htm ) which isn't only for the Microsoft simulators, but can used universal with any kind of game.
To this software you could connect all the buttons and hats you want to program with a keyboard emulation. Have done this method with my 4lever throttle for airliners in my pit. The drawback here is that you haven't the flexibility to use your buttons as normal DX or keyboard as you like. The layout is fixed! Another drawback is that the program could only produce one macro per press or release of a button. No more "toggle"-function like the original Thrustmaster software had.
With the above descripted way you could only program buttons, hats or switches. The antenna knobs will never be programmable, you could use them only as analog axis.
I have searched so much the past years to find a solution for converting my old gear to the "new world", but there wasn't any solution which was nearly as flexible and customizable as the good old original TM software or Flyfoxy. The only "modern" thing which could replace the FLCS/TQS is, or better lets say, was the HOTAS Cougar. As mentioned before, the Warthog isn't downloadable anymore. So no compatibility with earlier OS like W9X or XP.
If you would only come near to the options, the old TM gear original had, you have to built a very complex hardware with a lot of different boards in.
Example:
Arduino ProMicro --> analog axis and DX buttons Arduino Mega --> keyboard emulation for other buttons
or
Polabs Pokeys 57U --> analog axis and keyboard emulation and also DX buttons
only one board exists, which can do the same as the TM antenna knobs:
Hagstrom KEAD6 --> real fully digital programmable pots (Pokeys 57U can also program pots, but only one macro per direction and only the repeat sequence is adjustable / it's the same as you would use a (I)|0|(I) momentary toggle)
So you have to do a combination of those boards above (eg. Pokeys 57U with Hagstrom KEAD6) to have nearly the same functions, your TM gear was able to do right out of the box!
The drawback here is that you haven't the flexibility to use your buttons as normal DX or keyboard as you like. The layout is fixed! Another drawback is that the program could only produce one macro per press or release of a button. No more "toggle"-function like the original Thrustmaster software had.
Well if you do this in the Arduino, everything is just down to the C code you're writing - at least that's how I understand this to work?
I don't know enough about how the Thrustmaster Shift registers work yet but ignoring that you can actually program your own by detecting the shift button being pressed along with any additional button - and assign different behaviour to that button, as per this example: https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=50313.0
However, as the FLCS has its own shift register, it may not even be required?
That leaves the Dogfight switch which is a toggle switch. So this would be an ON-OFF-ON switch where the left and right positions are actually different buttons, at least that's how I understand they work?
I've found the following example which confirms my thinking.. The Arduino code runs in a loop to essentially check which buttons have been pressed - so it's pulling the button state in order to assign meaning to them. So that should enable you to pull BOTH sides of the Dogfight switch (T7 and T8) to determine the position the switch rocker is actually in. And based on that you can assign different meaning to other buttons - but you will only have to implement this for buttons that depend on the Dogfight switch mode, which could be all of them if that's what you want?
Why I was thinking about a second Arduino is because it seems that an Arduino needs to be flashed to either be an USB Joystick or Keyboard (or a Mouse or Gamepad).... but it can't be both at the same time. The reason for being a keyboard is that a keyboard device supports, by sheer definition, a far greater number of buttons with a 3 individual shift keys (SHIFT, CTRL, ALT), not counting the Windows Key and not counting actual toggle switches like Scroll Lock and F Lock.
Having said that, someone has managed to generate an USB Joystick profile with 128 and 256 buttons on it but very few games will accept that number of buttons (or anything over 32 really.)
But ideally I'd combine a Keyboard and Joystick on one Arduino mainly so I don't have to re-program my BMS keystokes ;-) (As you can tell, I'm only intending to fly BMS so I have zero problems in uploading my actual BMS keystrokes directly into the Arduino).
Do you need to include the shift function in the Teensy programming as well?
Or do the legacy TM Shift Register chips take care of this already, with the effect that when you use the Shift / Pinky Switch on the FLCS, that the receiving Teensy board already "sees" this as a different DX button press?
I don't know about programming code, but think that you are confusing "shift".
Shift Register chips transform buttons/HAT' press in serial code and send for joystick controller.
"Shift" (pinky button) function in old Tm software is a modifier, like is Alt, Ctrl, Shift in keyboards, one has no relation with other, you can make a joystick with "shift" (modifier) support using Diode Matrix instead Shift Register circuit for handle buttons (e.g. CH joysticks).
So you need include in your code for Arduino (e.g. Teensy) support for "Shift Register" serial code - are editable code around with this support - or controller will not see buttons/HAT's.
But this support for Shift Register don't mean that "shift" (modifier) will be possible, you need add "shift" (modifier) support specifically in your code.
In DCSW forum are a project for 256 buttons USB controller, since DCSW "see" up to 128 buttons the author create two controllers in one chip (don't remember if use ATMEGA or Microchip) and so windows see two "joysticks" trough a single USB cable.
Perhaps you can do the same, program a chip to be a HID joystick and a HID keyboard.
I don't know about programming code, but think that you are confusing "shift".
That's my problem - I understand code but I have no idea about how the joystick actually works But I'm learning!
Quote
Shift Register chips transform buttons/HAT' press in serial code and send for joystick controller.
"Shift" (pinky button) function in old Tm software is a modifier, like is Alt, Ctrl, Shift in keyboards, one has no relation with other, you can make a joystick with "shift" (modifier) support using Diode Matrix instead Shift Register circuit for handle buttons (e.g. CH joysticks).
Aah now that makes sense. So the Shift Register chips convert the buttons into one of the 32 joystick buttons,.... Okay, going to do some more research on this.
Is there any particular type of Arduino (or clone) board that you would recommend? Uno, Mega, Leonardo, Teensy... I'm getting a bit lost there
Aah now that makes sense. So the Shift Register chips convert the buttons into one of the 32 joystick buttons,.... Okay, going to do some more research on this.
In fact Shift Register mc or Diode Matrix detect what buttons are ON and "inform" the controller - normally buttons are all OFF (they are N/O circuits).
Since you are used to code, I think that Arduino STM32F103 based on ARM Cortex is better option, their internal ADC is 12 bits (ATMEGA32u4 is 10) and have more memory space for implement more functions.
if you are able to code, you could do things most of us could dream of. That's my problem, I'm an absolutely noob in things which you had to program. The electronics of joysticks aren't very complex. A little technical understanding is all you must have. But if you are able to program, you could make your own joystick software.
I wish I would be able to really understand the code of Arduino boards, but for more complex things I haven't enough knowledge and so I must often go a complicate way and built a "Frankenstein"-Hardware with those things that are available. You could make a software code that fits your needings and then just connect it to some buttons in the HOTAS.
For the mixed DX or keyboard emulation problem you could use a Polabs Pokeys 57U board instead of an Arduino. It offers really much functions out of the box (DirectX or keyboard macros or a combination of both). For a Falcon BMS HOTAS it's the perfect Hardware in my opinion. You have 55 pins to connect buttons, switches or encoders to it. You could also use pots, and if you only need the analog part of the pots (which is the case for Falcon BMS), there are really no drawbacks. It has also a simple to use graphical interface to configure the inputs. You could use an 16 x 8 matrix also, to get 128 buttons or switches out of it and still have 31 pins open, to which you could connect 6 analog axis and other stuff. It appears as a normal game controller with 0 to 6 axis and 0 to 32 buttons in windows. You have the fully control over each pin to use it as a DX button, an encoder input or as keyboard emulation. Only the 6 axis (attention - the manual descripes 7 axis, but you could only use 6 of them as DX axis) must be connected to special pins. It is able to download the programming to the chip and works in this case a bit like the old TM gear. Means once programmed you could use it with every OS! No need to run a software in the background.
You could get it for about 50€ with terminals (no more soldering) or for 42€ without terminals. Take a look at it at: [ https://www.poscope.com/product/pokeys57u/ ] and also download the manual [ https://www.poscope.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/Pokeys/Manuals/PoKeys%20user%20manual%20(21.12.2016).pdf ] , to see what this thing could do. It's a really amazing piece of hardware. I use them for the panels in my pit.
You have also the ability to configure pinky buttons (as I said read the manual, all is descripted there). The only reason I don't use them for my HOTAS in my pit, is the missing of really good programming for the axis in digital mode and no possibility to toggle one button press between different macros, like you could do it with the old thrustmaster software.
You could get them sometimes at ebay, too. I got 10 pieces for 110€ for my pit! The one I get are Pokeys56U, the precursor of the 57U. The only difference between them (if you use them for a HOTAS) is, that the 57U is able to switch the game controller for windows on and off in the software itself (in case you didn't need it as a DirectX controller but only for keyboard emulation). For the 56U you could do this via the windows system config which isn't as comfortable. But in your case this is no problem cause you only will need one or two boards and you will use them as a game controller anyway.
The Pokeys55U is the oldest version and I have no experience with it. It seem that it is comparable in most cases.
The Leonardo is quite easy to find here locally but the PoKeys are a lot harder to find so I'll start with the Leonardo. But first, I'll need to source a suitable project HOTAS as I rather leave my original SWF22 FLCS and TQS in tact.
(And hopefully fully operational again once a package from a very friendly fellow virtual Viper Driver arrives from Croatia!! )
Yes I would do the same, cause a fully operational FLCS (or F22) & TQS with the digital chips is very rare today!
I have also left some of my FLCS, TQS and WCSII in their original states. This way you could always look inside to compare how the original electronics had worked.
An SFS Suncom throttle with a Talon stick could also be an interesting gear for searching at ebay. Maybe you like to test your skills as an Eagle-Driver someday
An SFS Suncom throttle with a Talon stick could also be an interesting gear for searching at ebay. Maybe you like to test your skills as an Eagle-Driver someday
That Suncom Talon is pretty legendary but even in the 90s I cannot remember seeing them very often in Europe at all. Most of the guys I flew with either used the FLCS/F22Pro & TQS or CH Fighterstick & Pro Throttle or Saitek X45(??).
Thanks for the offer but no, I'm a Viper Driver through and through so I'll stick with the FLCS and TQS It's actually one of the reasons why I cannot get myself to spend that much money on a Warthog (other than not actually having the money!). I want that F-16 throttle quadrant, not that A-10 throttle. It just wouldn't feel the same flying Falcon 4.0 with that setup (although I'm sure its really nice). And the Cougar is awesome but just so expensive.
If I can get my original SWF22 setup working, that'll be great and then modifying the other FLCS+TQS to become a USB device under Windows 7 64-bit, that would be awesome. Not only to be able to fly under Windows 7 (and up) but also as a great learning project. A good friend of mine has multiple 3D printers (self-made) so that opens a whole new avenue of other little projects for which I could use Arduino (or clones).. such as an ICP panel, MFDs, etc. But let's do that HOTAS first!
I bought an SFS combo back those days. I think it was in 1998 as far as I remember. It's the otherway arround in my case. I never was a big fan of the F-16. I like it but its not my favorite fighter. This was always the F-14 and here specially the D-version. But its hard to find a simulation of this bird. Someone at the Falcon BMS forum is working on a version for BMS. I'm really keen on flying this bird in the near future and to my surprise it's also a D-version he builts.
As it seems at the moment Leathernek simulations has stoped their work at the F-14A/B for DCS, cause there isn't anything about the project at their website anymore. Really sad!!!
My second favorite after the Tomcat, is the F-15 and here its specially the E-model, the so called Strike Eagle. Its also a pain to get a more modern simulation of it. The actual Falcon BMS version isn't so much amazing. They have good versions of the F/A-18C Hornet and the AV-8B Harrier II but the "Mudhen" isn't modeled so well. Hope someone will make a detailed version of it, too.
What I really hate are the so called Fith Generation Fighters, with all the sh... stealth technology. I never was a fan of the F-22A Raptor and absolutely hate the F-35A/B/C. It will replace all the legendary birds with only one broken-winged "super fighter".
I like those birds that were legandary in my youth or before. That's why I also play Strike Fighters Project 2. Here you have all the fighters of the Vietnam up to the Cold War era.
I also ever loved attack-helos. This is the case I built such an universal oriented pit, but its also a real nightmare! I never was really able to choose only one aircraft as my favorite for my homepit. It's the same thing as it was, as a young man, with the girls .
So I decided to make a homepit which is able to simulate all of this as good as possible. I choose the Cockpit-Layout of the F/A-18 as loosely template, cause it's one of my favorite Cockpit-Designs and used to make exchangeable HOTAS for different aircraft. My pit is no exact replika, but under this circumstances and to the attention of costs (my budget is also really low), as real as possible. My focus is to get the feeling of the different aircraft you fly and not so much that every button, switch or dial is at its original place.
All the stuff I have , I've collected the past 20 years. Most of it is used stuff I was able to get very cheap at ebay. Often the electronics were damaged, but that doesn't mind me, cause I had anyway decided to built my own electronics. The main thing was to get the HOTAS grips and throttles, to be able to built replicas of the originals.
I also use a lot of unconventional stuff for my pit. Such things as making levers out of an old platic tube in conjunction with two glued bottle caps. Later, if the painting is done no one will ever notice the used material .
Hi Tazz , I am converting my Original FLCS+TQS too , it does/ did have the SW Chips too but I have since pulled the Original PCB's out as Sokol1 stated and have converted them both to Arduino HID devices , I origianlly ordered Leonardo's that you are considering and tehy work great but I have found the Space is tight for these boards in the base of the FLCS and TQS , I have since removed the 2.1mm power socket (don't need as it get 5v from USB) and replaced the Feale Headers with Male Right Angle Headers , so I can also fit in the Shift Register Boards I have made using the 74HC165 Chip . If you have the choice get Pro Micros not the Leonardo , they have the Same PinOut as the Leo and are 1/2 the size.
I thought the wiring for the FLCS handle was going to be a biggy too but it isnt, it is simply 5 wires as TM originally made a Shift Register PCB and installed 3 x 4021SR Chips to handle everything in the handle , just follow the colours in the pic i'll post below, its from a Cougar but its the same in the FLCS.
I have started a Thread of my Own ( see my sig below) as well but I am still working on that and have not posted my final pics and PDF Wiring schemes etc but it may help you too , the guys here have been great and an invaluable resource so if you have any questions or need more pics let me know. I have also converted my CH Pro Pedals and now connect them to the TQS via a gameport cable and plugs , though it runs off USB via the Leo in the TQS which handles the 3 Axis's needed plus all the TQS buttons etc.
I have now also picked up a 2nd set of FLCS+TQS and another set of CH Pedals too.
I hope you have a good Soldering iron .... I like my new Hakko FX888D , it's nice having temperature control...
Well my replacement FLCS and TQS is still making its way to my house by kangaroo - as I would like to keep my original FLCS+TQS (SWF22) original. Also because this way I can continue to fly and re-learn BMS 4.33 while I am working on converting the other FLCS and TQS... but it may still take a very long time for them to arrive.
Good tip on the micro, I had not realised the Leonardo is quite big. So I understand that you have a Micro in each, one in your FLCS and one in your TQS?
Can you link them together in your programming? Because I was thinking that I need to bring everything to 1 board (so wire TQS + FLCS together) so I can program the shift (Pinky) function from the FLCS across the buttons on the TQS?
Hi , no the 2nd pic above is a Leonardo I removed the power input socket and replaced the female pin headers with angled male header pins so I could squeeze it into the FLCS Base. Actually I had an old gameport TM X-Fighter stick tucked away with the FLCS+TQS so I actually put the FLCS handle on that base as i preferred the stiffer gimbal on the X-Fighter and I think the X-Fighter base is slightly larger than the FLCS base too.
The Leonardo is about 70 x 55 x 15mmm high with the 2.1mm power socket , but that isnt needed for the conversion as everything is powered by the micro USB port (5v) so I de-soldered it 1st , then did the headers when i realised how high the Leo is with Female headers and then a Dupont Connector pin is plugged into it. A lot of guys are soldering the wires direct to the Pro Micros to save space but as this is my 1st conversion , and I knew there would likely be issues ( electronics noob) I wanted to be able to test stuff in and out of the Sticks and at the Breadboard too... I actually got 3 Leos so I'd have a spare to play and diagnose stuff on a breadboard with.
I have a Leo in each , not a Micro currently as there would of been too many axis's for 1 Leo plus all the buttons. When i installed the TLE5010's I keep the original FLCS Pots working too (now 3 wire) and so have two knobs on the right side plus a 12 position Rotary switch which is connected to the Leo via a 16 pin ( 2 chip) Shift Register Board , wasn't too difficult even for a electronics noob , and the guys on the main Thread helped figure out the issues with that ...I had copied a bad PCB design out of the MMjoy PCB Folder and some resistors were missing but I am almost at the point of final reassembly finally. I also added a USB port ,using an extension cable for my new TrackHat Head Tracker as it came with a short cable . Viper just got one too I believe , SolderMonkey another User here recommended it . (my clip and camera was 32 pounds and took two weeks from England to arrive)
I let go of the FLCS+TQS in original state concept ( my electronics knowledge isn't enough) I had for more than a few years and they are each seen basically just as 32 button DirectX sticks now ...well more if the game can see them... there is 40 actually. but so far I have only been "up" for a quick test flight with my flcs sitting in a small bucket in EF2000 Reloaded , since the base isn't on so far. Windows sees the FLCS and TQS as two separate Controllers , it's one reason I kept the original pots in the FLCS , so I can still use them as a Throttle and Rudder if old Sims like EF2000 which will only see one Controller. ( why Rudders and FLCS all used to be hooked thru the TQS ) I am not fluent enough in MMjoy to say whether you can get the Shift function to work or not , Sokol or Viper may know? Look on my Conversion thread I think it was there that Sokol explain how main wires etc were needed depending on where the Pro Micro was placed, I didn't originally plan to made the Shift Register Boards ,but they let you add alot of extra buttons for only a few digital pins used , I just thought it would be easier to do each one separately and now connect my pedals to the TQS too as it had more free pins though I could add a 15 pin connector to the FLCS too and connect them there for older sims too I think .
You don't need to program anything if Using MMjoy the firmware and Control Panel does everything for you , so you don't need to know C or any other programming language to use it , but since it sounds like you can , you could get much fancier and perhaps run dual pro micros using one as a Keyboard and the other as a Joystick , there are a number of tutorials online that show how to make Keyboards that use pro micros for that too...
Post sure is slow these days , that's why I converted the Leonardo's too , my order of Pro Micro's has still not arrived after almost 4 months now....it's more expensive to buy locally but it's hard not to try the EBAY/AliExpress Route when you see the price difference. However I ordered TLE5010 Boards premade from China to replace the FLCS Pots and they did arrive ( ordered same day as the Micros which didnt) and they are now working great ...once I sorted a couple of noob mistakes ie don't put metal washers near the magnets as spacers ...definitely been a learning process ...but fun so far....
So I understand that you have a Micro in each, one in your FLCS and one in your TQS? Because I was thinking that I need to bring everything to 1 board (so wire TQS + FLCS together) so I can program the shift (Pinky) function from the FLCS across the buttons on the TQS?
If you plan use one Arduino for control FLCS and TQS don't get PRO Micro - has few pins for inputs, get Arduino Micro or Teensy ++2.0.
And don't trow away the gameport cables, you will need then - due their internal number of wires, for connect TQS in FLCS base.
Using Diode Matrix you need 14 wires (5 for axis, 2 for +, -, 7 for 5x2 matrix - 10 buttons)* for TQS, same for use Shift Register. Case plan use TLE5010/11 in TQS maybe need use 2 cables due more need of wires.
Since X, and Y axes are the more important, fit the controller inside stick, to make cables for this axes more short possible.
*More if you plan use 4 buttons HAT instead mini-stick (thumbstick) for replace that "eraserhead" @#$%&& thing.
I thought Hempstick had been discontinued ? (support) I looked at it 1st before deciding on using MMjoy2.... the cost and availability of the Arduino boards was also a factor especially if you get clones.
But I'm learning!
