Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#4347038 - 03/26/17 07:42 PM LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
The objective of this scenario is to give a "first hand" comparison on how a F-16 (as well as many/most other 4th gen fighter aircraft) would perform in the scenario which I believe some of you may have already seen which is the scenario that can be seen on the actual Lockheed Martin's F-35 simulator in videos circulating around the web such as this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oyCzT6sB_4

So the objective of this scenario is to somehow give the "first hand" ability to experience how much hard is to accomplish the scenario/situation of the LM's F-35 scenario with a 4th gen fighter aircraft like the F-16 (I used the Block 52 variant, by the way).

From what I could gather in "well known" LM's F-35 simulation seen on the video above is that there are 2 Mig-29s performing a patrol (likely a CAP) and 4 SAM sites located north of an enemy airbase which is the scenario's mission objective.
Also by looking closely at the video, I assume that the scenario's assets/objects placement relative to the "player's" F-35 is the following:

https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0BwK-B4mRQeNLcU5RLWZkUUNGcjg


But if I'm mistaken in my "F-35 LM simulator" analysis above please feel free to correct me so I could improve my scenario for Falcon BMS.

I made this scenario for Falcon BMS (4.33 with Update 3) which again tries to replicate the LM's F-35 simulator within the limitations of my best capabilities and knowledge and guesses as well within the limitations of Falcon BMS simulator itself (finding a similar airbase within Falcon's Korea map and other limitation such as SAM placements, etc...).
One of my "guesses" for this scenario was using as enemy SAMs the SA-17 (which is basically an improved version of the SA-11). I used this SAM model based on the comments from the LM engineer (which was showing the F-35 simulator and helping the "player" executing some actions) which left me to believe that the SAMs from the F-35 simulator have an approximate range of 30 miles against 4th gen fighter aircraft and the closest to this in Falcon BMS is the SA-17.
Both enemy fighter aircraft are Mig-29s where one of them can clearly be seen being shot down thru the F-35's DAS in the video. As such I used the Mig-29A variant in the Falcon BMS in order to give the player/F-16/4th gen fighter aircraft the best possible chance to survive and accomplish this scenario.

Also like in the LM's F-35 simulator the objective or main objective is to attack an enemy airbase. I chose an airbase in Falcon's BMS Korea map which in my opinion closely resembled the most the airbase of the F-35 LM's simulator.
The player's F-16 is equipped with a loadout which allows it to perform a similar/capabilities as the F-35 and its loadout in the LM's simulator. The loadout for the player's F-16 Block 52 is the following:
- 4xAMRAAMs (-C variant), 2xGBU-31, 2x370gal EFTs, 1xECM pod and 1xSniper EOTS pod.

If you want to try out this scenario the steps required are:

1- Download the scenario from here (.zip file containing 2 files):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwK-B4mRQeNLRWhYRlJLdjVDU1U/view?usp=sharing

2- Uncompress the .zip file and place the files into the following folder/path of your Falcon BMS install:
\Falcon BMS 4.33 U1\Data\Campaign\Save

3- Open Falcon BMS, select "Tactical Engagement" option in the main menu, click on "SAVED" Button and finally select the "F-35_LM_Simulator_Rep" scenario and play it by pressing "Commit".


Personally I advise anyone who wishes to try this scenario to perform the following actions after the previous steps (after step -3):
4- On the upper corner of the map/screen change the time advance from "x1" to "STOP" and take a look at the map if you want and then press "Takeoff".
5- Once in the cockpit press "SHIFT+p" to freeze the simulation (curiously the F-35 LM simulator is also "paused/frozen" when it starts) in order to set up your jet at your liking (set ECM and CMDS programs, activate/ready the GPS weapons, etc...)
6- Press "SHIFT+p" again in order to un-freeze the simulation and play it.


By the way, my first impressions were that while doable (also and probably because I know the scenario, afterall I "designed" it) it's definitely NOT and it's very far from being the "walk on the park" as it is with the F-35 as we can seen in the LM's F-35 simulator video which I believe could somehow help to understand how much advanced the F-35 and its capabilities are when compared to a 4th (or even 4.5th) gen fighter aircraft like the F-16.

I hope you enjoy it.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4347041 - 03/26/17 07:51 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
theOden Offline
Member
theOden  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
Thanks ric, will have a go at this later in the week

#4347144 - 03/27/17 11:48 AM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
You're welcome. I'll be waiting for your feedback.

#4347267 - 03/27/17 05:53 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Well, never really made it to the drop area as I keep getting jumped by MiGs. No matter what I do, a loaded, CAT III Viper just can't knife fight at that state. I also almost never see the MiGs... I'm looking for them at "sensible" altitudes but looking at the ACMI tapes, they start off at 2,000 AGL and my radar is set to something like 41-18K at 40nm.

After a few missions, the AI seems to reset and they start off at 10K altitude and it's easier to pick them up. In one of my successful missions, they faffed around a bit so I was able to get closer. It's a balance between firing between Rpi and Rtr, whether I wait to get a shot off first or he does. Ideally, I fire first or fire immediately after he launches, notch, and see what happens. If he turns away first, I turn back in and fire another -120, hopefully well within the Rtr range now. If not, start cycling the music and putting out countermeasures and hoping his missile does not hit. Most of the time, he turns away first. His buddy also sucks at mutual support so even with 2 jets, I am able to pick them off one-by-one. Ideally, when I launched on the first fighter and he goes defensive, his buddy should've pressed on me...

Once the A-A threat is gone, I skirt the line of -17s while setting up my GBU. I pick the tower and drop both bombs off at the target... IIRC I'm well within 10-13nm from target at this point, but I was quite low as well, under 10K altitude. One or two SA-17 missiles is launched at me just before I pickle, so I drop my goodies and then start evasive. No sweat defeating them and good shack on the target.

The biggest difficulty I have with the mission is lack of intel. No AWACS (?) as far as I could tell so I was essentially "blind" the first few runs and didn't know what altitude to look for the MiGs. The second problem is lack of setup. No FLOT line, no threat rings... how do I load the .twx file? Third issue is lack of support. Ideally, I'd have a wingman who I can sic onto the MiGs or at least a CAP flight for protection. Having to go A-A mode with ground ordnance and wing bags isn't ideal.

With the right prep, this mission isn't that hard at all and is quite fun. Certainly do-able with the F-16. The F-35 might have an easier time playing as a ninja, sneaking in and stabbing everyone from behind, but it's really not NEEDED. Frag a few flights, sweep the area, launch a few HARMs, and a strike package can easily plink the target with the GBUs from further out.


- Ice
#4347273 - 03/27/17 06:16 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Hmmm... tried it again and I was under 10nm at 27K altitude when I can release the GBUs, with 0.71 mach, so not bad compared to the F-35 sim. Dancing with those SAMs is fun!!

[Linked Image]


- Ice
#4347281 - 03/27/17 06:32 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
theOden Offline
Member
theOden  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
Tough.

I never stood a chance at altitude so I did my Viggen approach and went down pushing a few trees to the side and made it un-opposed to target (ok, locked by a 29 once) overflying once to make a screenshot for you guys but made another pass dropping one of the GBU's

[Linked Image]

But I guess going in low was not part of the challange as I don't think a F-35 ever would.

#4347288 - 03/27/17 07:15 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Sweet shot! However, I think a GBU is wasted on a low attack... Should've just brought a MK-84 biggrin


- Ice
#4347309 - 03/27/17 08:45 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
theOden Offline
Member
theOden  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
Haha Actually, that was my first intention before I even tried the mission but as it was air spawn I couldn't be bothered to edit the mission biggrin
In heavy defended areas I have most often had best success rate going in low with dumb ones and lofting all iron onto target at high speed.
(also more heart pumping experiences)

#4347312 - 03/27/17 09:09 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
I do see the wisdom in going low... however, with the MiG threat in the area, I could not really attack unitl they are neutralized. Unfortunately, BMS does not model ground clutter and the AI is quite good at finding you.

Did you get any SAMs launched at you?


- Ice
#4347318 - 03/27/17 09:25 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
First of all thanks theOden and - Ice for trying the scenario and for the feedback.

@ice,

Yes, this scenario is indeed simplistic and it doesn't have AWACS, wingmen or support flights on purpose. Remember that the objective of this scenario is to mimic the Lockheed Martin's F-35 simulator scenario which can be see in a considerable number of videos across the web, like this one in Youtube (I also posted this link on my first post of this thread):




I even advise you to watch the video before (or after) playing this scenario.

One thing that got me worried a bit was that sometimes the Mig-29 spawned/start at 2,000ft with you. So far this never happened to me and to be honest this shouldn't happen at all!
Both Mig-29s are supposed to spawn/start at 10,000ft (like later happened to you) - If you look at the LM F-35 simulator video (link above) you'll see that this is the altitude where the Mig-29s start. Nevertheless, I'll have to take a closer look at this.

Yes, I imagine that this scenario is far from easy and your feedback confirmed what I intended with this scenario - To show how "superior" (like a next step in evolution) the F-35 is compared to the F-16 or any other 4th and even 4.5th gen fighter aircraft.
And it seems that it really shows this since as you can see from the video above, "playing" this "similar scenario" with the F-35 is really a "walk in the park" but definitely not with the F-16 wink

For example one of the things that makes the F-35 superior besides stealth which allows you for example to remain undetected by the Mig-29s (while with the F-16 the Migs will always detect you in this same scenario) is the capabilities and the way how the F-35 detects (and classifies) targets/threats.
Of particular note was Ice's comment on how hard was to detect those two Mig-29's.
On the F-35 this is done almost instantly using a merge of several sensors - for example at minute 2:18 of the video it can be see that the Mig-29s where detected and placed on a Tactical Situation Display using a combination (and merge) of a set of sensors: Radar, ESM and IFF. And of course the Radar by itself of the F-35 is far more advanced and capable compared to the one of the F-16.

Anyway, I hope to have made this scenario as close as possible compared to the LM F-35 simulator scenario seen on the video.

#4347326 - 03/27/17 09:46 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: theOden]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
Originally Posted by theOden
Tough.

I never stood a chance at altitude so I did my Viggen approach and went down pushing a few trees to the side and made it un-opposed to target (ok, locked by a 29 once) overflying once to make a screenshot for you guys but made another pass dropping one of the GBU's


But I guess going in low was not part of the challange as I don't think a F-35 ever would.


Today while playing a Korea campaign (stock) that I'm currently running and after those pesky Chinese entered the war (supporting North Korea obviously) I flew a mission/sortie whose objective was to destroy a Chinese Chemical plant located well inside the Chinese border. That Chemical plant was not only located close to one of the two major Chinese airbases but according to the Briefing it was also defended by several of those pesky SA-10s!
In my package there was a SEAD flight (composed by 2 KF-16s Block 52) whose task was to keep me safe from SAMs while another 2 ship flight of F-16Cs were to provide escort against enemy fighters. During the flight my escorts run into a enemy flight of SU-30s and defeated the enemy but things started to go south once we got nearer to the objective where the Chinese scrambled several Su-30s and J-11 (Su-27s) during this time I lost contact with those two other flights and from the radio chatter I could gather that at least some of these aircraft were lost to the enemy.
To my (not so) surprise there were still two (2) enemy active SA-10 sites according to my RWR. So I faced a dilemma:
1- Abort the attack and return to base
2- Press on the attack

Guess which one I chose? You're right, the suicide no.2

But yes, I noticed that at 30,000 or so I would be dead meat for those SA-10s so I decided to get low (just like theOden did in my scenario biggrin ) and I somehow (almost miraculously) I managed to get near enough to loft the pair of my GBU-31s (JDAMs) at pre-marked targets (waypoints) on the chemical plant and the tactic for my surprise worked very well and certainly much better if I used Mk-84s instead wink
During this attack I not only endured some occasional detection by those SA-10 but my flight was also jumped by at least 2 more J-11s. To my surprise my wingmen managed to dispatch those 2 J-11s and after leaving the area and also to my complete surprise I only lost one of my wingmen (my flight was a 4 ship flight) which was shot down by one of those J-11s.

So 3 out of 4 from my flight managed to return home, including me. I guess that I was extremely lucky this time wink

P.S - I even earned a Silver Star medal for this mission smile

#4347336 - 03/27/17 10:48 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Hello ricnunes,

I did watch that video you linked and as for the MiGs, I may be mistaken on that one. Apparently, TacView was set on meters and the MiG was at 2,600m ASL. That is around 8,600 ft ASL, and the MiG flew down a bit more... I may be remembering the min-altitude on my radar cursor. Apologies for the confusion.

As for mimicking the F-35 video or displaying how "superior" the F-35 is compared to 4th gen fighters, you're simply not comparing apples to apples. Using a mission designed to showcase the F-35's ability and then using an F-16 to do the same thing is like this:

[Linked Image]


While it's cool that the F-35 can come in under stealth and pick it's targets, the SAMs will still need to be taken out, the enemy fighters will still need to be neutralized, and so on if you want to "win" the battlefield. Whether you use the F-35 to stab them in the back or use a few flights of F-16s to punch their nose in, the job still gets done. The two fighters just have different ways of doing it, and must thus apporach the same situation with different tactics.

As for the "all-seeing eye" of the F-35, again, we don't have much info on that.... but suffice to say it wasn't detecting ALL of that via on-board sensors alone. You can see at the 7:18 mark that the enemy fighters are behind his 3-9 line but they're still on his HSI, so the F-35 is getting that data from somewhere. Can the F-35 radar be scanning a full 360-degree coverage? I don't think so. And then you ask the F-16 to do the same without AWACS or other support?

Lastly, while the best we have regarding the F-16 is what we see in BMS, there are gadgets inside the real jet that are classified and isn't seen on the BMS simulator... so again, we're comparing a THEORETICAL 5th-gen jet using a mission designed to show off it's capabilities against an OUT-OF-DATE iteration of a 4th-gen fighter with one hand tied to it's back and asking it to do a mission it wasn't designed to do.

Now how about a guns-only knife fight, F-35 vs. F-16, with the merge starting at 5nm at 10,000 feet? biggrin


- Ice
#4347354 - 03/28/17 12:45 AM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 467
nadal Offline
Member
nadal  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 467
@Ice detecting target behind 3-9 line

Range is about 20 miles away from MIGs?

A target that once illuminated by F-35 radar, might be able to be handed off to F-35 onboard image sensor(360degree) if able.

or airplane that within certain range of F-35 is simply gets detected. ( taking into account that detection range of IR sensor of typhoon is said to be about 60miles+ IIRC )


I have nothing to back my theory though.
but I would be surprised if 100000000000000 whatever dollar fighter plane doesnt have an ability to make use of it's sensor to full.




Last edited by nadal; 03/28/17 12:49 AM.
#4347394 - 03/28/17 05:31 AM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
theOden Offline
Member
theOden  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,614
Great read ricnunes,
Isn't it typical one always choose the suicidal #2 despite all classic Falcon comments say "Do not fly all missions, it is better to RTB than to have a plane lost"?
Must have been one helluva ride smile

#4347424 - 03/28/17 11:58 AM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 13,199
DBond Offline
Strategerizer
DBond  Offline
Strategerizer
Veteran

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 13,199
NooJoyzee
Originally Posted by ricnunes


P.S - I even earned a Silver Star medal for this mission smile



Congrats. This caught my attention, as I've always been interested in how medals are awarded in this sim. It was definitely a Silver Star and not an Air Medal or DFC? Silver Stars are very difficult to get, usually you'll need say 20 ground kills and four air kills or something like that. So if it actually is a Silver Star then I'm guessing that the 'mission difficulty' could have been a big factor. Do you have a screenshot of the debrief? What and how many did you kill? Any other details such as missiles defeated, wingman status, mission distance, that sort of stuff?


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4347449 - 03/28/17 03:29 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
Originally Posted by - Ice
Hello ricnunes,

I did watch that video you linked and as for the MiGs, I may be mistaken on that one. Apparently, TacView was set on meters and the MiG was at 2,600m ASL. That is around 8,600 ft ASL, and the MiG flew down a bit more... I may be remembering the min-altitude on my radar cursor. Apologies for the confusion.


No problem Ice.

Originally Posted by - Ice

As for mimicking the F-35 video or displaying how "superior" the F-35 is compared to 4th gen fighters, you're simply not comparing apples to apples. Using a mission designed to showcase the F-35's ability and then using an F-16 to do the same thing is like this:


While it's cool that the F-35 can come in under stealth and pick it's targets, the SAMs will still need to be taken out, the enemy fighters will still need to be neutralized, and so on if you want to "win" the battlefield. Whether you use the F-35 to stab them in the back or use a few flights of F-16s to punch their nose in, the job still gets done. The two fighters just have different ways of doing it, and must thus apporach the same situation with different tactics.


You're right that both fighter aircraft can (and in the case of the F-35 will) perform their missions quite differently.
However I don't agree that this isn't an "apples to apples" comparison since the F-35 will totally and completely replace the F-16. So with this in mind it makes IMO total sense to compare both (note that again this isn't only a comparison to the F-16 - it's also a comparison with all and every 4/4.5 gen fighter aircraft).

Imagine if we lived in the later part of 1930's, lets say 1938/39 and then we decide to compare the Gloster Gladiator with the Spitfire MkI. Both aircraft also fight differently but one (Spitfire) is downright superior to the other and the superior one (Spitfire) at that time will completely replace the other (Gladiator). At least I hope this analogy makes some sense... wink



Originally Posted by - Ice

As for the "all-seeing eye" of the F-35, again, we don't have much info on that.... but suffice to say it wasn't detecting ALL of that via on-board sensors alone. You can see at the 7:18 mark that the enemy fighters are behind his 3-9 line but they're still on his HSI, so the F-35 is getting that data from somewhere. Can the F-35 radar be scanning a full 360-degree coverage? I don't think so. And then you ask the F-16 to do the same without AWACS or other support?


Like Nadal hinted, the answer for your "Can the F-35 radar be scanning a full 360-degree coverage?" question is YES and one of the "answers" is DAS or Distributed Aperture System.
The F-35's DAS is a set of 6 (six) IR sensors placed "strategically" around the aircraft in order to give a 360º spherical covering. DAS performs several functions such as the famous 360º IR pilot vision projected on the pilot's helmet visor which allows for example the pilot to "look through" the airframe and it also acts as a Missile Approach Warning System but for this case in particular the F-35's DAS also works as 360º Spherical IRST, so this alone allows the F-35 to scan, detect and track target in a full 360-degree coverage.

Take a look at DAS manufacturer's (Northrop Grumman) web entry on the DAS system:
http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/ANAAQ37F35/Pages/default.aspx

Also like Nadal said those Migs are located at a distance of around 20+ miles from the F-35 which is more than enough in order for them to be detected and tracked by DAS.

On top of this the F-35 also have another way to perform 360-degree coverage which is thru its ESM (Electronic Surveillance Measures) sensors. Unlike 4th and 4.5th gen fighter aircraft that are equipped with sensors such as RWR which gives the pilot a general idea of the direction where a threat is coming the F-35's ESM sensors perform actual geo-location of those same threats.
This means that if those Mig-29s have their radars on (and I'm assuming they have) the F-35 can perform target tracking (indicating them on the TSD) the actual location (and not only direction) of those Mig-29s.

So in this case what happens is that if those Mig-29s have their radars on than those Mig-29s should be tracked and followed by merging both data from DAS and ESM (sensor fusion - another ground breaking feature from the F-35) when they are located at the side and rear sectors of the F-35 (outside the F-35's radar coverage area).

Therefore, I don't believe that were any AWACS or "external" support in the LM's F-35 simulation (that can be seen in minute 2:18 for example) and as such I didn't place such assets in this Falcon BMS scenario.


Originally Posted by - Ice

Lastly, while the best we have regarding the F-16 is what we see in BMS, there are gadgets inside the real jet that are classified and isn't seen on the BMS simulator... so again, we're comparing a THEORETICAL 5th-gen jet using a mission designed to show off it's capabilities against an OUT-OF-DATE iteration of a 4th-gen fighter with one hand tied to it's back and asking it to do a mission it wasn't designed to do.


The same can be said about the F-35. In that LM's simulator there's a plenty of classified capabilities that aren't shown. If we're going to compare these "classified" "non-modeled" features than the F-16 will be even at a much bigger disadvantage since those "classified" "non-modeled" features are far more advanced than anything on the F-16 or any other fighter aircraft for that matter.

I know that there's a lot of things that we don't known on both fighters BUT this scenario was set with the best we have on home PC (Falcon BMS) and to the best of my personal knowledge and observation skills which I admit it may have its "gaps".
However it seems that this scenario only confirms what are already facts like the ones proven on the latest Red Flag exercise where the F-35 proved to be much and way superior to (and more survivable than) any other 4th and 4.5th gen fighter aircraft.

Like it or not, the F-35 is here to stay and it's capabilities are so far advanced that this will be a new revolution in terms of aerial warfare, much to the like when monoplanes replaces biplanes, Jets replaced propelled-driven aircraft, and so on...

Originally Posted by - Ice

Now how about a guns-only knife fight, F-35 vs. F-16, with the merge starting at 5nm at 10,000 feet? biggrin


Unfortunately there's isn't any F-35 in BMS. I noticed that there was someone doing one (and it looked cool) but I haven't hear from this project from quite some time.
I hope that the BMS team will eventually add one.

Anyway, the closest thing I know about what would be a "knife fight, F-35 vs. F-16" is the following site which is an excellent read (from an actual Norwegian F-16 and currently F-35 pilot) - The English part in on the second half of the page - here:

http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/ka...n-a-dogfight-what-have-i-learned-so-far/

(BTW, even here the F-35 looks great wink )

#4347450 - 03/28/17 03:37 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: theOden]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
Originally Posted by theOden
Great read ricnunes,
Isn't it typical one always choose the suicidal #2 despite all classic Falcon comments say "Do not fly all missions, it is better to RTB than to have a plane lost"?
Must have been one helluva ride smile




Thanks theOden smile
Yup, I wonder why do we PC simmers always trend to choose the "suicidal" options?? LoL biggrin

About that last mission, lets just say that it wasn't proper for someone who suffers from Heart Conditions wink biggrin
(Resuming - It was really one Hell of a Ride biggrin )

And BTW to make things even worse, that mission was performed during pitch black nighttime so flying treetop relying on NVGs was by itself quite scary!

#4347460 - 03/28/17 04:41 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: DBond]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
Originally Posted by DBond
Originally Posted by ricnunes


P.S - I even earned a Silver Star medal for this mission smile



Congrats. This caught my attention, as I've always been interested in how medals are awarded in this sim. It was definitely a Silver Star and not an Air Medal or DFC? Silver Stars are very difficult to get, usually you'll need say 20 ground kills and four air kills or something like that. So if it actually is a Silver Star then I'm guessing that the 'mission difficulty' could have been a big factor. Do you have a screenshot of the debrief? What and how many did you kill? Any other details such as missiles defeated, wingman status, mission distance, that sort of stuff?


Thanks Dbond!

No, I unfortunately I didn't take a screenshot from my debrief frown

However I noticed that at least part of the debriefing is stored in a text file (debrief.txt) and the debriefing details for that mission in that file are the following:

Quote

RECORD BEGIN TIMESTAMP 3/27/2017 17:27:10.
Game is Campaign type Local


Mission Type: OCA STRIKE
Flight Unique Id: Lobo3
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16CM-40
Contry: U.S.

FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Hornet joined as Lobo31 at 02:00:26
Event 100mm AAA (RG) launched at Hornet 02:22:56
Event 100mm AAA (RG) launched at Hornet 02:23:03
Event 100mm AAA (RG) launched at Hornet 02:23:04
Event 100mm AAA (RG) launched at Hornet 02:23:06
Event PRC A-50 downed by Lobo32 at 02:31:16
Event PRC SU-30MKK downed by Hornet at 02:41:56
Event PRC SU-30MKK downed by Lobo32 at 02:42:53
Event PRC SU-30MKK downed by Lobo33 at 02:46:57
Event PRC SU-30MKK downed by Hornet at 02:47:48
Event PRC J-11 downed by Lobo33 at 02:58:28
Event PRC Tall Chem Tower destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Laboratory destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Wide Tank destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Wide Tank destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Spherical Tank destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Spherical Tank destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Pipes destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Radio Tower destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Chemical Meter destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Small Tank destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Small Tank destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Small Tank destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Small Tank destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC SA-10 destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:31
Event PRC Laboratory destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:34
Event PRC Pipes destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:34
Event PRC Piping destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:34
Event PRC Piping destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:34
Event PRC Piping destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:34
Event PRC Metering Gauge destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:34
Event PRC Chemical Meter destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:34
Event PRC Tall Chem Tower destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:34
Event PRC Tall Chem Tower destroyed by Hornet at 02:58:34
Event AA-12 launched at Hornet 02:59:48
Event Lobo33 downed by PRC J-11 at 03:01:04
Event PRC J-11 downed by Lobo34 at 03:01:46
Event AA-10C launched at Hornet 03:02:08
Event AA-12 launched at Hornet 03:02:58
Event AA-10A launched at Hornet 03:03:02
Event Hornet landed at 03:45:16
Event Hornet exited from Lobo31 at 03:46:27

-------------
PILOT SLOT 1:

Human Player: Capt. Ricardo Nunes
Callsign: Hornet
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 2
AG Kills 1
AS Kills 22
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 8
Other Player Kills 0

WEAPON DATA

LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0

LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C
Starting Load 4
Fired 4
Missed 1
Hit 3
Event AIM-120C released at 02:30:41@72hit A-50 - damaged
Event AIM-120C released at 02:40:41@72hit SU-30MKK - destroyed
Event AIM-120C released at 02:46:22@72hit SU-30MKK - destroyed
Event AIM-120C released at 03:00:12@72miss

LOADOUT 2: GBU-31(v)1/B
Starting Load 2
Fired 2
Missed 0
Hit 2
Event GBU-31(v)1/B released at 02:57:50@72hit Tall Chem Tower - destroyed
Event @72hit Small Tank - destroyed

LOADOUT 3: 600 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0

LOADOUT 4: AN/ALQ-184
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0


As you can se my kill tally for that mission was: two (2) air-to-air kills (Su-30s), one (1) air-to-ground target - a SA-10 launcher which happened to be at the chemical site (lucky me biggrin ) and 22 static targets belonging to that chemical site/compound.

Unless I missed something it seems the debrief above doesn't inform about the Silver Star that I earned. However you can see it in my Logbook below:


[Linked Image]

Note that I have an extensive record (76 Air Kills, 425 Air-to-Ground (vehicle) kills, 57 Static ground targets and 1 Naval target) and previously I also earned 4 (four) Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC) and 4 (four) Air Medals - perhaps this record helped me earn the Silver Star?

#4347461 - 03/28/17 04:53 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 13,199
DBond Offline
Strategerizer
DBond  Offline
Strategerizer
Veteran

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 13,199
NooJoyzee
Thanks for that info, excellent. Ya know, I guessed you couldn't have destroyed that many targets with two GBU. So, good bombs biggrin

I wonder if Falcon takes what your wingmen killed into consideration when it awards the player medals.

That file shows all I wanted to see, more than the debrief would have, thanks for the reply. and congrats on the Silver Star! thumbsup


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4347469 - 03/28/17 05:12 PM Re: LM F-35 simulator scenario in Falcon BMS [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Originally Posted by ricnunes
You're right that both fighter aircraft can (and in the case of the F-35 will) perform their missions quite differently.
However I don't agree that this isn't an "apples to apples" comparison since the F-35 will totally and completely replace the F-16. So with this in mind it makes IMO total sense to compare both (note that again this isn't only a comparison to the F-16 - it's also a comparison with all and every 4/4.5 gen fighter aircraft).

Imagine if we lived in the later part of 1930's, lets say 1938/39 and then we decide to compare the Gloster Gladiator with the Spitfire MkI. Both aircraft also fight differently but one (Spitfire) is downright superior to the other and the superior one (Spitfire) at that time will completely replace the other (Gladiator). At least I hope this analogy makes some sense... wink

I'll disagree here... biggrin While the F-35 may replace the F-16 someday, making the F-16 fly a "stealth-required" mission is where you're not doing apples-to-apples. Apples-to-apples may be testing how far they can be before lobbing a GBU to a target, or how accurate they can be with dumb bombs or with the gun. Asking the F-16 to fly a mission where the F-35 has the upper hand due to stealth isn't apples-to-apples.

Some time in the future, we may have a mission that you can either send in 2 F-35s and they come in and catch everyone napping and are gone before anyone else even knows what's going on.... or send in 2x 4-flights of F-16s and they break down the door, meet the opponent head-on, and punch their teeth in. Bottom line, if both aircraft can get the mission done and keep the pilots safe, I personally don't care how they do it.... and I'm sure I'd greatly enjoy any high-fidelity simulation of either aircraft!! biggrin



Originally Posted by ricnunes
Like Nadal hinted, the answer for your "Can the F-35 radar be scanning a full 360-degree coverage?" question is YES and one of the "answers" is DAS or Distributed Aperture System.
<snip!>

Please don't come here with your black magic!! smile Hehehe...
If that is true, then it is awesome! However, let me state my bias here --- The F-16 has seen battle and whatever systems it has on it has been baptized in fire. AFAIK, the F-35 hasn't. Now it could be possible that the F-35 is the bees knees and it can do all that is advertised plus it has a built-in toilet seat and it can make the pilot's coffee in the morning exactly how the pilot wants it.... but until this is proven in battle, I will be skeptical. I like it when things are taken out, gets its knuckles bloodied, then comes back in one piece.

I think we all know aircraft that looks good on paper but doesn't deliver... or aircraft that performs very well in the field despite original designs or expectations.



Originally Posted by ricnunes
Like it or not, the F-35 is here to stay and it's capabilities are so far advanced that this will be a new revolution in terms of aerial warfare, much to the like when monoplanes replaces biplanes, Jets replaced propelled-driven aircraft, and so on...

One thing that bothers me very much is the move to a "glass cockpit." I guess I've seen enough broken TVs and mobile phones... and I've been plinked enough times in DCS A10C that I wonder what happens when a stray bullet cracks the screen? At least with current aircraft, the loss of HUD and MFDs isn't the end as the pilot can still fly/navigate with the steam gauges. Don't get me wrong, I think glass cockpits are cool, but I just like having "Plan B".



Originally Posted by ricnunes
Unfortunately there's isn't any F-35 in BMS. I noticed that there was someone doing one (and it looked cool) but I haven't hear from this project from quite some time.
I hope that the BMS team will eventually add one.

Anyway, the closest thing I know about what would be a "knife fight, F-35 vs. F-16" is the following site which is an excellent read (from an actual Norwegian F-16 and currently F-35 pilot) - The English part in on the second half of the page - here:

Very interesting read!! As far as BMS is concerned, I hope they can tweak the FM so that it represents the F-35 as best it can... with regards to the article, unless I'm understanding it wrong, well, while the F-35 can point it's nose quick, I wonder how well it can actually fight. An A-10C can turn it's nose really quick as well, but nobody is calling it a dogfighter. What I'm trying to say here is what if the defending fighter can hold off the F-35 in its initial attack? Will the F-35 lose enough speed/angles enough for the defending fighter to reverse roles? Does the F-35 have enough "staying power" or can it only attack once or twice before it starts getting into trouble?

One bit I loved about the article: "But me quoting Top Gun does not make the movie a documentary."



In any case, the mission was very interesting and I hope you make some more for us to test!


- Ice
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0