Dude needs to hang up the goggles. Enough is enough.

http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/harrison-ford-has-incident-passenger-plane-airport-n720826

FAA might pull his ticket this time.

There will be old pilots and there will be bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots.

Your thread title scared me. I'm glad to hear he's ok.

I thought the same thing.

While the others could have been aircraft malfunctions, it's hard to explain away landing on a taxiway instead of the runway. Can't see the FAA pulling his ticket, though. Some mandatory retraining, maybe.

Taxiways can be very confusing on the ground, but on final it is really something to confuse them.

Doesn't seem he was doing anything bold. He just screwed-up. Very serious screw-up. They will probably pull his ticket for a year, have mandatory training, and do a check ride.

Maybe he had Falcon BMS flashbacks on final? The graphics are beginning to look pretty real...

more celebs that can BUY their fun... but sometimes it costs lives.

John Wayne 20L
He had to fly over some buildings to land on the taxiway. Looking at it from an aerial view it should be easy to distinguish the runway from the taxiway unless the sun was causing some havoc which depending on the time of day would be a distinct possibility.


Wheels

Well, hopefully not Millenium Falcon flashbacks, any ways...

Fixed it for you. Hope it looks right. Bad day. Wife crazy. Job sucks. Half way through bottle of Glenfidditch

Not enough facts to judge the guy...

I only see a couple more buildings being overflown on an approach to the taxiway (red line) as opposed to a proper approach to 20L (green line).

+1

Maybe he thought he was flying old style IL-2 in multi-player, where one takes off from the runway and lands on the taxiway!



His "last incident" was an engine out, and he handled that pretty much perfectly, so I don't know why the article threw that in the mix.

Probably because the only knowledge of aviation the authors have is sitting in an airliner seat.

I was trying to get that angle.
Thanks F4U.


Wheels

There is a lot of information based on standard piloting and airfield markings. This was a standard VFR landing. Runways have their numbers painted large and clear (20L) on the threshold. He should have been using that as part of establishing his landing sight picture. In his favor is that 20L does not have the two large white "Captains Bars" at the normal touchdown point and it doesn't have the normal runway width indicator bars at the threshold. So it is missing a couple normal runway markings that 20R has. But runways all have painted lines in white and taxiways are yellow. So when he lined-up for the centerline it should not have been yellow. It should have been white. Also runway center lines are not solid but are large white dashes. Taxiway lines are solid yellow. He should have been looking at the precision approach lights , PAPI ( in this case P4L, which means 4 lights to the left of the runway) which are white or red lights that show if you are high or low on the approach. They are on the left for 20L and landing on the taxiway would have put them on the right. That is not standard placement and not according to the AFD Airfield Directory which he should have known. I looked at the NOTAMS, Notice to Airmen, and the ights and markings were not an issue when he landed. The NOTAMS does show they are/were inoperative for a period on the 16th.

Use Google Earth and look at John Wayne Airport and you can see all this. It is more clear than the picture in F4UDash4's post.

So, no runway number painting, yellow versus white paintings, solid versus dashed, and PAPI lights on wrong side should all have been very powerful indicators that he was screwing-up. These things are standard at all airports and he knew them.

Plus his pilot mind should have been registering that the layout had him landing too close to the gates. That should have triggered his brain even if nothing else did. It would all have just looked wrong, especially to an experienced pilot. The width should have looked all wrong to him since the runway is much wider than the taxiway. I would very surprised if this was his first time at that airport. It should have been familiar to him. And a huge indicator that something was wrong was the commercial aircraft he flew over. As he approached he should have seen that something was amiss.

Way too many indicators that he was screwing-up.

But it is easy to get distracted and fail to follow proper procedures and indicators. That is why on landing pilots establish a "sterile cockpit" and pay no attention to other things except for the landing. The brain can only handle so much at a time and when it gets overloaded it either fails to register more info or starts processing other info poorly trying to handle additional info. Landing is a whole bunch of info load on the brain. You can miss things or process something poorly and not realize it. And once your brain establishes something as right, it is difficult to get it reoriented to it being wrong. That is why pilots land with their gear up or at the wrong airport.

But he screwed-up. Badly.

Streak of bad luck, could happen to anyone and age has nothing to do with it.

I'd say he should get that training and prove himself still capable. If he passes, he's good to go.

You can't let this slide as "one of those things", but I see no need to revoke his license over it.

You can take traffic school when you get a ticket, after all.




The Jedi Master

Probably he was distracted and just thought "remember Harry, John Wayne 20L is the small one aside the more obvious one" and completely neglected to put 20R in the picture. Or worse "L is at the left", full stop. I am afraid it's an age thing.

Stupid mistake but I have to agree with the others, Ford is an excellent pilot who has handled emergencies very skilfully in the past.

His really big mistake this time was to try to land when another aircraft was under him. In the US you're never allowed to land if an airliner has lined up on the runway in front of you, it's a mandatory go around even if ATC doesn't tell you. And even though though the airliner was lined up, he landed anyway, and it turned out to be a taxiway - a double whammy. This was a big mistake. Sorry it happened to him.

That being said this is a fairly common occurrence in the aviation world. It happened several times with commercial airliners flown by commercial pilots at large airports last year in Japan alone where the ATC and pilot standards are quite high. Mistakes happen. You try to learn from the past and ensure it doesn't happen again.

The airliner afaik was waiting at the end of the taxi way for Ford to land to cross 20L on the way to 20R.

Serious but an honest and not so rare mistake, I've seen it almost happen a few times when there is a lot of chatter over comms and the pattern is very active.. If this was "john smith pilot" instead of a celebrity, It wouldn't have even made the news..

Whether he gets any disciplinary action will depend on whether he's burned his ASRS "get out of jail free" card yet. He'll have to file the form and see what happens.

I'd guess he'll get a 709 ride. It takes a lot of the FAA to actually pull your ticket.

From what I understand, his other two mishaps were an engine out and wind sheer and not his fault.

Would ATC not advise him to check his approach or is it something that happens too fast? Meaning from the ATC's perspective it could still look like he's aiming for the correct runway until the very last minute and they realize he's no where he's supposed to be? Also I'm curious as to whether the airliner was maybe told to halt by some ATC person paying attention to the apparent danger unfolding or was he sitting there because that is where he was told to go to and hold short and thankfully the timing happened to be fortunate? I guess I'm wondering if the airliner was still in the process of rolling and moving, making his way down the taxi way. Was he still moving on the taxiway as Ford flew and landed over him?

Can't be sure, but the angle from the tower probably could not tell he was off that bit. Also they are used to aircraft being a bit off centerline adjusting for the wind. No information on wind for his landing. But they aren't looking that closely at an airplane on short final.

If you take a close look by zooming in on the link



John Wayne Airport


and look to the right where it reads 19 L. There is a twin engine airplane there and just behind it are dashed yellow and solid yellow lines on a blackish stripe. That is the "holdshort" line where a departing aircraft holds until instructed to proceed to the runway for takeoff or to cross that runway to another location. That apparently is where the commercial airplane was. Actually it would be on the other side of the line from the one in the photo. You hold on the side with the solid lines. It would have been holding short there because of Fords landing on that runway. So that is why he came in over the airplane on the ground. For a pilot that is a huge red flag. The runway markings read 19 L instead of 20 L because they are assigned on magnetic compass heading and since the magnetic heading slowly changes over time, runways are updated to match. So it changed from 19 (190 degrees) to 20 (200) degrees. They round to the nearest 10 degree so a change of just a degree or two can change the rounding process.

Did I make that clear or did I complicate it ?

Airport is bigger than I thought it was.

Sadly, I disagree. I know I have slowed down mentally as well as physically. Don't believe me? Try going back to college.

It's a very busy airport and runs alongside a major freeway, and because of that one can see planes landing and taking off all the time.

+1

Also, I always mean to tell you: Good for you for doing that. It's not easy, I'm sure, going back at your age. People can laugh if they want, but I think doing that takes quite a bit of courage, because it is so out of your element. I don't think I could do it very easily. I've considered it but always said "nah." You may end up inspiring me to do it. Anyway, again, good for you brother.

Thanks Airdrop.

Do it man! You sound like you are at a turning point in life, and the Over-"Educated" College administrators of America need someone with more credentials than I to go "Hey, that's not only age discrimination, it's dumb!"

Had a really fun time today in my English Composition class. If you had told me a few months ago that was possible I would have laughed in your face.

Yeah, we slow down. That's certainly not any reason to come to a screeching halt. I am backing off the full time stuff though. This semester is NUTS!

They don't know what to think of me....which of course, I like. Learning is cool, at any age IMO.

I very well may. I really really want to be a high school teacher. I can't think of much better to finish up my working life than teaching kids and maybe coaching some ball at the same time. We shall see!!

Or....you could just coach and coast a bit for awhile.....taking time to stop and just think is good.

It's very cool you enjoy coaching kids.

In here it shows what I was saying about the commercial jet at the holdshort line waiting for him to land before proceeding.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4229206/Harrison-Ford-spotted-air-investigation-hold.html


The John Wayne Airport is laid out oddly with the terminal and commercial jets on one side and having to cross to the other side of the field to use the large runway and small general aviation doing the opposite. Makes for a lot of taxiing and runway crossing.

I think his crash with the historical plane was bad luck, or good, depending on point of view.
Getting a plane down after engine failure is not easy and he did well i think.

Yes, he handled that well. They just like to refer to that even though they have little understanding of what happened. It is just easy and spectacular for them to focus on. Look at the video near the bottom where he flies a "classic spitfire" ...

I wonder how many hours he has ?

I don't see where there is a RWY 19L. I only see 20L and 20 R in that link. And actually, when runway numbers go up (ie, from 27 to 28) it is because there are more than 3 runways with the same heading. In short, there is already a RWY 27 L, R, and C. A 4th runway heading 270 magnetic would then be numbered 28, or 28L, R, C depending on if there are more runways.

v6,
boNes

I guess that depends. When I took off at John Wayne Airport years ago, they had given me a short taxi and let me use RWY 2L. Maybe it was slow that day and they didn't mind giving me the closest runway, but it didn't involve me having to cross any other runway or any long taxi to another. I finished my checks at the hold short, got clearance to take off, and went from there.

I'll tell you one thing: the airspace is CRAZY. LAX and the surrounding airports--and there are alot of them--make for a confusing mush of Class B, Class C, and other airspaces that is hard to keep track of and stay legal in, plus then add the mountains to the equation and other air traffic and it gets to be a confusing mess. When the people at SNA found out I am from Chicago they thought that because of ORD that the airspace must be confusing and crazy but really it's not, especially compared to that Los Angeles airspace. Makes the head spin. I'd almost say maybe Ford was confused with information overload from that but I'm also guessing he is no stranger to this airspace at all.

v6,
boNes

Anyone spot the A-26 in the Google Earth shot?

Anyone else notice the black A-26 Invader in the Google link OG posted?

Bones, which link. If you go to the John Wayne link and zoom in, you will see it change from 20 to 19.

This link OG? https://www.google.com/maps/@33.68034,-117.8639631,482m/data=!3m1!1e3

Yes, this link,the one you tagged "John Wayne Airport"

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.68034,-117.8639631,18z/data=!3m1!1e3

v6,
boNes

Yep, as you zoom in on the approach end of runway 20L you can see it change to 19L.

How far does one have to zoom in for all I see is a large 20L in white and 2R-20L on a red background?

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6807957,-117.8635119,61m/data=!3m1!1e3

Yeah same here. Maybe there's a difference if you use Google Earth V Google Maps on a browser?

v6,
boNes

Well, I tried it on my cel with Google Earth app but it still said 20L.

v6,
boNes

Odd, one my Google Earth through my iPad it changes.

It belongs to the Lyon Air museum.

----------------------------------------------------------------


Must be going to an outdated image. It was 19R and 19L as recently as 2005 though. Wikipedia Germany still has it listed as such.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Airport





Wheels

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Airport

Notice the date 2010 on this diagram and 1995 date on the other diagram.

Well, just went back and it still changes over from 20 to 19 for me.

Did a screen capture.

Then I went to skyvector.com which is an on-line flight program. Take map to California and zoom in on John Wayne. Touch the John Wayne symbol and it pulls up some data. A little tricky but if you hit the name John Wayne it will open the on-line AFD. Sometimes it opens approach plates or the FBO instead. May take a couple tries to get it to open the airfield data. Then on the left is a small google picture . Open it . Zoom in and it still changes from 20 to 19 for me.


See if this link works for you.



https://skyvector.com/airport/SNA/John-Wayne-Airport-Orange-County-Airport

If you look at the approach end of 20L you can see a circle with HS1. That means a Hotspot on the airfield. Usually the reason is in the AFD, but if not it can be found in the FAA directory.


http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/05Jan2017/SW_hotspot.pdf


So where Ford flew over the commercial airplane was a problem area on the field and had specific instructions.

You have it reversed OG, went from 19 to 20.

Your Google is out of date.

Dimensions: 5701 x 150 feet / 1738 x 46 meters
Surface: Asphalt / Grooved in Good Condition
Weight Limits: 89 /F/B/X/T, S-70, D-200, ST-300
Edge Lighting: High Intensity
Runway 02L Runway 20R
Coordinates: N33�40.07' / W117�52.43' N33�40.90' / W117�51.90'
Elevation: 56.0 41.5
Gradient: 0.3 0.3
Traffic Pattern: Left Right
Runway Heading: 016� Magnetic, 028� True 196� Magnetic, 208� True
Markings: Precision Instrument in good condition. Precision Instrument in good condition.
Glide Slope Indicator P4L (3.00� Glide Path Angle) P4L (3.00� Glide Path Angle)
RVR Equipment Rollout Touchdown
Approach Lights: MALSR 1,400 Foot Medium-intensity Approach Lighting System with runway alighment indicator lights.

From the link in post 4338085 OG

I wasn't speaking chronologicall. I was referring that the google earth starts it at 20 then as you zoom in it changes to 19.

I have been doing whatever updates it said. But after poking around, found that I had to clear my cache. Now it shows 20 on zoom.

Didn't know that.

Thanks, didn't know I had to clear the cache. Learned something.


Funny how the cache works. Now if I open google earth and go there it shows 20 even after zoom. But f I go back to my links and zoom they still change from 20 to 19. Strange how that works.

MAYBE the large scale satellite view is older than the close up view?

Well, no matter whether Google shows 19L or 20L either way, dude landed on Charlie which is a big time screw up.

I still think people are being too hard on ol' Ford

Today a couple of airliners clipped wings at a major airport in the US, doing millions of damage and a collision itself is far far more dangerous than a runway screwup in VFR conditions.

He messed up, he'll face the consequences, but in the grand scheme of things his screwup was a drop in the ocean compared to major screwups that occur every day in the commercial airline biz.

^^ I agree, and I don't believe it was anything to do with pride & ego

Like I said, it's just like traffic school. You can get a ticket for something you did that was a genuine mistake. You didn't deliberately do it knowing it was wrong, but the cop still gave you a ticket.
Ignorance isn't a defense there, and it isn't here either.

He shouldn't be blamed for it, but he must pay for it. If that makes him more aware and less likely to do it again in the future, the system worked.



The Jedi Master

So awesome!

Oh, hell, this is why one should stay away from towered airfields.

No harm, no foul, NASA self report for a warm fuzzy feeling, and it's a little funny story to tell from this without a tower.

Towered airports and controlled airspace do have their rules and regulations that make flying a bit less devil-may-care.

And when you screw-up it gets a heap more attention. Particularly when a commercial airliner is involved.

And speaking of getting some attention.


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/local-...iyxuWtKOiUWf6H/

Heh, Lantana. I remember that place. That was a long time ago.

I saw it happen here in 2004 when Bush the president visited Bush the governor at the local stadium for a rally. Some guy flying VFR in some tiny little plane along I-95 got buzzed by an F-16. Was pretty cool to see, although I knew the guy was in trouble for it. He must have passed within half a mile of the stadium.




The Jedi Master

Video of it.


http://www.tmz.com/2017/02/21/harrison-ford-plane-landing-taxiway-video/

Surprised it took so long for the video to surface.


Wheels

My favorite violation of the Presidential airspace restriction was this 87 year old woman in her J-2 Cub that cut the edge of President Obama's circle over Chicago. Yep, J-2.

The fighter planes had a helluva time slowing down enough to check her out and warn her off, not just because of the speed, but that she was flying 3,000 feet AGL.

She took to smiling and waving at them (no radio) and then landed at her destination, a little County airfield, where police were waiting on her.

Naturally she played the little old lady "gosh, did I do that? I'm so terribly sorry" routine and got off with just a warning.

It makes me laugh because she was probably a WASP and knew darned well just how she had screwed up and BS'd her way out of it.

Not quite 87 Dart.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...cago-visit.html

I thought the F-16s were slowing down to admire my antique plane': Meet Myrtle, 75, the pilot who entered restricted airspace during Obama's Chicago visit

She was a wing walker tho.

My initial thought was that Ford's error couldn't be all that big. But yeah, it's a big one all right! Wonder why he did what he did.

Not sure if a video has been posted.

I do that all the time in P3D - no big deal.

Old people get confused. I get confused often. It's easier and easier the older you get. I'm fairly sure the folks in this thread who deny it haven't gotten to that point in their lives yet. It happens eventually to everyone to some degree or other.

I was all set to pass it off as a bad day, but he even had trouble responding with the first tower he was at. Identifying himself as "Helicopter" instead of "Husky", becoming rattled... Having two brain farts in the same flight is not good.

John Wayne has been having a lot of problem recently it seems. So much so that the FAA posted a safety video in January.

Runway Safety @ John Wayne Orange County

Source: https://youtu.be/xKOzdU0S3nU


Wheels

There's also audio, on the same site, of the ATC comms -- from post takeoff, prior to the landing, where he responds with a "helicopter" designation rather than the "Husky" he was actually flying, and he also screws up the handoff to the next facility, and has to be reminded of which frequency he should be on.

While, for the most part, I'm with the other posters, that individually, most of these (particularly the radio) are common enough mistakes, particularly with someone who flies multiple aircraft types, it IS concerning that they all occurred within a short period of time, and ended in the significant violations at the end of the flight (overflying the airliner, and the taxiway landing). Just seeing the airliner in front of him, *should* have provoked an immediate response of "going around" ... not "is that airliner supposed to be there?".

He was clearly having a *very* bad day. I'm glad that it didn't turn out to be a bad day for anyone else as a consequence, since most aircraft accidents are typically comprised of a chain of questionable judgement, bad decision-making, and outright mistakes.

Given his age, I'm fairly sure there will be some question regarding "competency".

At minimum, I'd expect some remedial training and an FAA checkride -- but adding up the whole picture, the FAA could, if they chose, probably build a pretty good case for yanking his ticket.

I'd bet on the first result rather than the second, but I wouldn't rule it out completely.


Regards,
4 <S!>

This is one reason why pilot's licenses required medical evaluations IIRC. If someone is "foggy" on a regular basis, they really shouldn't be flying.



The Jedi Master

The dude should move to his billion dollar ranch in the country and fly around there and buzz his cows, sheep etc.

Maybe he want's to die in an airplane...dunno, if true, he should make sure no innocents die with him.

This is ticket pulling stuff...sadly.

Why the HELL would anybody who can afford almost ANYTHING choose to fly in that mess just reminds me why I don't like most people from CA....Wheels and a few others excepted. (My English prof would call that a classic run on sentence!)

Well actually, Even though I have lived in CA for several years I still consider myself a displaced Midwesterner with those values still guiding my everyday life.


Wheels

A bit more on the instance.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-harrison-ford-landing-20170324-story.html

Yep, landing on a taxiway is almost unheard of. Not anywhere near a normal error.

Actually, it isn't. The reason for a medical to fly non-commercially has to do with needing pilots in WWI and the gov't having absolutely no record of who was flying and what their qualifications were and getting caught short. After WWI, all pilots were required to be permitted by the federal government and undergo an induction physical for military fitness. So when WWII came around, they knew just who to draft for Army Aviation. The days of being able to transition from a J-3 Cub trainer (or go directly to an L-4 observation plane, which was a Cub painted green) to a P-40 and put into a fighter squadron are long, long, long gone. But the requirement remains for no damned good reason other than institutional inertia.

And I don't require a medical at all to fly as a Sport Pilot - just my driver's license.

The need for a medical is simply to make sure that you are healthy enough to be flying an airplane. It has nothing to do with WW2. Pilots weren't drafted. They were volunteers. Every one. It has always been like that. Every guy who ever flew for the military was there because he wanted to be there.

Actually, the initial instructors for WWII were indeed drafted, or directly asked to serve. Or didn't you think we had 100's of aviators in uniform in 1938 when the USA ramped up military strength?

The Sport Pilot program has proven that no more than a driver's license is required health-wise for GA pilots. Not one single accident caused by medical incapacition.

All the medical proves is that on one day out of ten years, if one is younger, and one day out of five if one is older, the medical standards are met.

Actually, for Class 3 medical (normal non-commercial) it is every other year for pilots over 40. Five years if under 40. I don't believe it has to do with drafting pilots. Just establishes a general fitness measure for flying.

Many of the early instructors in the Air Corps were civilians. To meet the need for pilots to fill the thousands of cockpits that were being built, the government took over many civilian flight schools and that is where a lot of Army aviators got their primary instructions. They weren't military instructors. They were still civilians.
And as far as the sport pilot license goes, it is very limited. You can not fly at night, for instance. And you are limited to flying very light, low powered airplanes.

Recording of Ford talking to the ATC immediately after the incident:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39391431

All the good flying is in smaller, light aircraft during daylight hours!

I'll dig up the links for the history of the flight physical later, and why it was introduced....might surprise y'all.

At any rate, the Class III physical is now reformed to be much less onerous. The efforts to get it completely removed came a bit short, but the compromise wasn't bad.

Personally I think the relaxation of the 3rd class medical requirements is a step backwards. But then I have to get checked out every 6 months and have an EKG annually (1st Class Medical). Flying an airplane isn't like driving a car or a motorcycle. You can't just pull off to the side of the road if you suddenly feel ill.

Well, if GA pilots, on average, flew more than 25 hours a year and carried passengers I might agree with you.

Pilots understand that airplanes aren't cars, and go through the pre-flight medical self evaluation.

Just like aircraft aren't cars, Cessna 172's aren't Boeing 777's.

I'm in between the two sides. I guess it's based on the flying you do. I do over a hundred a year, carry passengers, fly long distance to new airfields, fly at night, and fly in controlled airspace. I'm doing instrument training now and may go for the full certification. So I'm a bit over the average Private Pilot, but under any kind of commercial. So I see both sides of the coin and was OK with either way they went on the new medical rulings. I'm halfway through my current two year Class 3 medical.

That sounds logical, but the problem is that the 3rd class was largely a mirage. Then we got a decade of stats from DL sport pilots not falling out of the sky and showing there's really no benefit to the 3rd class at all as far as safety vs. self-certification.

The 3rd class also included a ton of stupid, unnecessary SIs that cost people thousands (or kept them on the ground) as well.

If I can't fly an An-225 to my summer cottage, I have zero interest in bothering at all.



The Jedi Master

The verdict is in, so to speak - no action taken against Harrison Ford regarding this incident:

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/harrison-ford-plane-near-miss-213643666.html

Then again if such an incident is severe enough to actually incapacitate (but not kill) the result is probably worse in a car.

Imagine things like a non-fatal heart attack, stroke, etc - the GA pilot might well have the time to get through the worst of it and still pull off a landing.

Driving down the freeway? That's probably not going to be a "just pull over to the side of the road"....

And as for an outright fatal medical incident behind the wheel or yoke, I'd think the odds of the resulting crash killing others would actually be higher for the uncontrolled car.

Of course I'm talking strictly GA plane here.......

Back on the Ford thing - I'm not surprised at no disciplinary action, but I'd have thought some kind of "checkride" would result, age considered and all.....