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#4347948 - 03/30/17 08:18 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Nope, joined a bit too late, I'm afraid. You **ARE** forgetting I'm nowhere near as old as you old farts! biggrin


- Ice
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#4347957 - 03/30/17 08:44 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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NooJoyzee
Indeed I do forget, that comes with age biggrin


I just want to plug your freakin' awesome install guide. This thread gets a lot of views, and that subforum maybe not so many. And no prospective BMS pilot should miss your guide.

http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.p...h-falcon-4-bms-4-33-update-3#Post4347779


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4347970 - 03/30/17 10:20 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks for the kind words.... but if you think the install guide is great, have you seen my Helios profile? biggrin
Also, no need for the plug.... it's designed to just "be there" and whenever a new pilot comes in, we'll just point him to it as needed.


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#4348180 - 03/31/17 09:53 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Dear DBond.

Have you noticed this forum currently has 88 Viewers.
DCS is at 47.

You are to blame.

smile

#4348181 - 03/31/17 10:02 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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LOL Oden, I think DCS is to blame!

Well BMS is clearly the superior sim, all we are doing is preaching the gospel and converting the flock biggrin

"But the one practicing the truth comes to the Light, that his works may be manifest as having been done in Falcon BMS"


[Linked Image]




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#4348188 - 03/31/17 10:35 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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haha Holy Monthy Python!

#4348348 - 04/01/17 04:34 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Yeah I love that film, I believe it is the one I have watched more than any other. My signature has been revolving Holy Grail quotes for the past few months smile

About DCS... I don't own it and haven't bought one of their products since LOMAC. I mean why would I? I literally can't believe so many do. I want to shake those guys and tell them wake up! Stop giving ED your money. Fly BMS. You'll be happy! I just spent 3 minutes in that forum and grabbed these quotes from SimHQ members:


"A-A in DCS is a sad joke. It's so unrealistic that it drives people to adopt opposite-to-real-life tactics.
Still, I do enjoy the air-quake."

"I keep trying to do A2A in DCS, but the missiles keep turning me off. Only dogfight-range ones are worth a damn, and while that's fine for the MiG-21 and F-86 for the Su-27/MiG-29/F-15 it's just too frustrating."

"Sure, you can do guns-only battles easily enough, but it gets old."

"considering the laughable de-volution of their FM. It's just sad."

"You simply cannot polish a turd."

You could easily come up with a hundred similar quotes. So why do they do it? It's something in human nature I think. It's like the thinking behind the saying 'throwing good money after bad". They are in it already., so they keep buying new stuff thinking this time it will be good. Seems to me, as an outsider who simply reads the forum, to be a complete sh!t show, and I just don't get it, especially when you have a sim like BMS that costs at most $10.

Could you imagine similar comments about BMS? Where are the posts talking about what a shi!t show BMS is? So why fly DCS?

On one hand I get it, like with you (Oden) wanting to fly the Viggen. There's no flyable Viggen in BMS, at least I don't think there is, and even if it was it would probably be a F-16 under the hood.

I knew with LOMAC that ED's formula was not for me. I want a good combat environment to fly in. Not just fly. BMS deliver in spades.

Some have said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again expecting a different result. And I cannot just go spouting off in the DCS forum, that's poor form and I wouldn't do it. So I'll continue to make posts and threads to show what BMS is and can do, and maybe a few DCS players or prospective owners will see all BMS has to offer and fly it instead. Who knows, and it can't hurt.

I know if I were a guy who wanted to get in to sims and was looking at both forums trying to make a decision, the choice would be crystal clear,






No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4348356 - 04/01/17 05:21 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Yes, the DCS mayhem is remarkable.

Truth is, after flying Falcon for a few days and trying a short flight in DCS it does actually strike me how good DCS looks.
In all fairness, flying the A-10C is very nice, very close to our beloved F-16C in terms of systems etc. but when you've flown a mission that mission is "used" and all creations becomes one-time-products (like our TE's).

I think most e-pilots are in for the looks more than the sim-part. Quite often comments relate to textures/skins and effects while I am under the impression falconeers talk simulation way more often. I mean, how to manage a particual threat and what tools to make best use of.

DCS comments, well, they are pretty much as you quoted above.

We do have a JA 37 in BMS and I have flown it alot, even modded it to "become a AJ 37" since I am a mud mover but the DCS AJS 37 is state-of-art and just amazing to work in but alas, after a few attempts I always end up in "Why am I flying" when the sterile/static environment gets me.

I have tried to create a live environment scripting LUA like a crazy (ready for any asylum) but LUA for a starter is a retarded environment and bugs and crashes comes in all flavours. The mission I have runs pretty smooth now and one can fly all modules incl FC3 planes but it still just doesn't cut it compared to Falcon campaign.

Just a small thing such as talking to ATC after RAMP or the lovely "Welcome back" when entering your home base airspace and then getting directions all the way to final (or complaints like "Oden FFS, wait your turn next time", I bet you all heard that one smile ).

But yeah, I do enjoy both DCS P-51D and MiG-15bis but in all honesty - all I do with those is flying on acrobatic servers for halv an hour once a week (at best).



Last edited by theOden; 04/01/17 05:22 PM.
#4348371 - 04/01/17 06:45 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Good post.

There's no doubt that some folks enjoy DCS, and that for some it scratches that itch. The people I am thinking of are those that make comments like those above.

Anyway, I don't fly DCS and probably never will, even thought that Eagle calls my name. But I know I would be disappointed once I learned the jet and was ready to fly combat missions.

I think it was Ben Franklin who famously said that BMS is proof that god loves us, or something like that smile


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4348435 - 04/01/17 11:35 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
I want to shake those guys and tell them wake up! Stop giving ED your money. Fly BMS. You'll be happy!

To be fair, DCS serves a different market. To me, if you want structure and repeatability (is that even a proper word?), then you want DCS. It's a perfect sim for those that want to practice tactics and techniques. Kinda like BMS TEs, but you can have a full mission that kinda acts like a TE due to scripts making it predictable. So if you had your wingman at trail when you got jumped, you may want to fly the mission again and have your wingman at echelon and see how that goes. That sort of thing.

But when you want the immersion of the unknown, when you want to test your skill against varying threats and reaction to un-briefed situations, well, DCS fails to serve in that regard. As someone said, it's a sandbox airframe simulator, not a combat flight simulator.


Originally Posted by DBond
You could easily come up with a hundred similar quotes. So why do they do it? It's something in human nature I think. It's like the thinking behind the saying 'throwing good money after bad". They are in it already., so they keep buying new stuff thinking this time it will be good. Seems to me, as an outsider who simply reads the forum, to be a complete sh!t show, and I just don't get it, especially when you have a sim like BMS that costs at most $10.

What I don't understand is why a few pro-DCS members willingly turn a blind eye to the shortcomings of ED and DCS. It's one thing to be a fan, it's another to be a blind follower.


Originally Posted by DBond
Could you imagine similar comments about BMS? Where are the posts talking about what a shi!t show BMS is?

People are too busy flying and enjoying BMS, plus the whole culture? environment? aura? atmosphere? of the BMS community is very different from that of DCS. Perhaps it's the fact that the devs provide the "mod" for free? Or the fact that they don't waste their time with "updates" or "weekly newsletters" and simply say "it'll be ready in 3-4 Falcon weeks" and that's done?


Originally Posted by DBond
Some have said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again expecting a different result. And I cannot just go spouting off in the DCS forum, that's poor form and I wouldn't do it.

I'm on the other end here... I can't stand it when only one side of the issue is presented. There's enough whitewashing and Kool-Aid drinking in the ED forums; I like to challenge certain statements regarding ED/DCS here on the DCS sub-forums. It's quite sad how those people then realize they don't have a case to present and instead start going for the personal and underhanded attacks. **THAT** is poor form.


Originally Posted by DBond
I know if I were a guy who wanted to get in to sims and was looking at both forums trying to make a decision, the choice would be crystal clear,

I wish I could say the same. I would ask the guy what he wanted in his simulation. It doesn't hurt to get the basics done in DCS A-10C. Fly out of Bantumi and practice on the abandoned airfield just north of it. Short flight, CCIP/CCRP practice, guns, etc. Get a feel of how things work. My buddies and I used to fly and fly and fly the "In the Weeds" mission, trying things out, figuring out which tactics worked and which ones didn't... and how we could adapt to the boo-boos. DCS is like learning to ride a bike with training wheels on.

For those that want a bit more challenge, a bit more of the unknown, and buckets and buckets of immersion, then take the training wheels off and get into BMS. When I first started playing BMS, I didn't think I'd stay very long. The airfields in DCS are simply gorgeous and so is the cockpit. Modern graphics in all it's beauty. BMS airfields are blatantly low-res, no grass, the cockpit is grainy and the shadows are even worse! Then we fired up a campaign and flew missions off of that, and eye candy took a back seat to everything else that makes BMS great.


- Ice
#4348441 - 04/02/17 12:19 AM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Good post by you too Ice. I want to be clear, I'm not saying that no one should fly DCS. I'm not even trying to convince them not to like it. I'm not even saying it's bad, the sh!t show comments are related more to the seemingly haphazard development map and sub standard releases, with forum comment icing on that cake. As I said there are people for whom DCS will scratch their flight sim itch.

Instead, what I'm getting at is for all the folks clearly unhappy or downright hostile about DCS that continue to buy, fly and cry.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4348448 - 04/02/17 12:41 AM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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LOL! What I cannot stand is when they say DCS is the greatest COMBAT flight simulation ever! Or when they say we should be grateful to ED otherwise there's nothing else to fly. Falsehoods!! So I bring up the point that BMS is superior to DCS in terms of "combat" and therefore, there **IS** something else to fly. This usually deteriorates into why they like DCS and how dare I say they are wrong about their own personal opinion... biggrin

But since I do my best to stick to fact-based arguments, I get my points out **AND** steer clear of trouble from the moderators... which then deteriorates into whining about the anti-DCS people having preferential treatment.


- Ice
#4348469 - 04/02/17 02:15 AM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Well I hope DCS folks will realize where I am coming from and that I am not saying the sim is crap. It is gorgeous. Like I said I drool over that F-15 'pit. I love that jet. I was thinking about this earlier, that what I love about F4 and BMS isn't necessarily the F-16. This sim could be a F/A-18 sim, or a Strike Eagle sim, or a Harrier sim and I would still call it the best there is. Of course that line is blurred by the fact you can fly many different aircraft, though it would be fair to say not modeled to DCS level. Now it's also true that the F-16 is my favorite jet. But I know deep down that has been almost entirely shaped by my association with F4 over the years, plus the fact that my 'home town' squadron (177th Fighter Wing) also flies Vipers and I can go and watch them take off and land. What I really love is a multi-role jet fighter. Something about that that scratches my flight sim itch.

I went back and re-read the last few posts and just want to point out two of the comments that I could not agree more with. I guess I kinda read through a little too fast sometimes because I'm eager to add my penny to the discussion and then forget to add some points I had meant to. Or it's old age. One or the other.

Quote
Just a small thing such as talking to ATC after RAMP or the lovely "Welcome back" when entering your home base airspace and then getting directions all the way to final (or complaints like "Oden FFS, wait your turn next time"


Yes, so much yes. It's these sorts of touches that make the environment in Falcon what it is.

Quote
Then we fired up a campaign and flew missions off of that, and eye candy took a back seat to everything else that makes BMS great.


Quoted for truth.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4348470 - 04/02/17 02:19 AM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Not just that... try integrating voice comms into DCS. You can't.

"Tanker, Falcon 1-1 requesting fuel"
"Two, attack my target!"
"Flight, weapons free!"


- Ice
#4348507 - 04/02/17 08:12 AM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Also consider alot of people have a rather big bag of dollars invensted in DCS modules.
I have FC3, A-10C, P-51D, MiG-15, AJS 37, Mirage 2000C - each and everyone of them at $50 range making me $300 deep into DCS.

One can imagine folks that have put the double will keep screaming for improvements (that never comes) in frustration just because of that.

With that FC3 is also the very same FC2 and Lomac I already bought long time ago, just reworked to fit into DCS World.
A-10C was good, but the module I fly the least these days.
P-51D was impressive but is only good for sightseeing flights today.
MiG-15 is very well modelled, BelsimTek is pure quality, still this airframe suffers the same fate as the P-51D for me today.
Mirage 2000C is still beta and was a interim solution for me and one of my falconeers to fly fast and low strikes (OCA style) and was at that time thet most fun I have had in DCS, lasted a month (still in beta btw).
AJS 37 Viggen was a must-have for a horrible Swede like me, bought it hands down despite my current decision to never touch another module in DCS again.

Should teach people NOT to buy stuff to "support" companies, their wish will not come true but the other way around, companies will think "this is good enough" as the money keep pouring in.

Also seeing the obvious that ED does not have any betatesters (that they trust at least) but trying to poke the fire using this open beta approach to see if something explodes or not should raise a warning flag.

What DCS tells me is, graphics are way more important that simulation nowadays.

Like all other previous years, Wags tells us 2017 will be awesome. Personally I stopped listening to such predictions and will not go for their F/A-18C, Hormuz Map, Heatblur F-14A or anything since I know by now the simulation bit is really, really weak - and in all honesty, after several weeks of evening hours and full day saturdays fighting LUA code to make DCS more alive I have seen so many weird AI moves it makes me even more distant to DCS. I am very close to summarize it as "it honestly is a #%&*$# product" (we're talking obvious hard-coded #%&*$# such as only red side can talk to EWR and only blue side can talk to AWACS which puts countries like Georgia in trouble).

But at the same time, when starting BMS after a long DCS evening the looks honestly hits me in the face but since I'vs been through that so many times I know I will be blind for it in 10 minutes and it is only obvious while on ground - once up and flying in the office it isn't that striking anymore.

#4348522 - 04/02/17 11:19 AM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: theOden]  
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Originally Posted by theOden
Also consider alot of people have a rather big bag of dollars invensted in DCS modules.
I have FC3, A-10C, P-51D, MiG-15, AJS 37, Mirage 2000C - each and everyone of them at $50 range making me $300 deep into DCS.

One can imagine folks that have put the double will keep screaming for improvements (that never comes) in frustration just because of that.

I can totally understand that view. What I can't understand is the people who are $300-deep or more into DCS and use **THAT** as justification for how good DCS is. "I wouldn't be buying their modules if it wasn't good!" No, dude. Maybe your standards are just low. Or your requirements for a combat sim is very light. Your opinion of DCS is that... your opinion. And you bought so many modules. Good for you. Now let's talk about facts. BMS DC vs. DCS scripted campaigns. DCS patching fiasco. 3 branches of development, only 1 of which would really count in the long run. And so on.
ps. "you" is the DCS consumer, not "you" theOden. biggrin


Originally Posted by theOden
AJS 37 Viggen was a must-have for a horrible Swede like me, bought it hands down despite my current decision to never touch another module in DCS again.

Hahaha!! Totally understandable! ED hasn't seen a penny from me since DCS BS2, but my weak spot will be the F-14 and F-18. Like they say, "everybody has a price" and this is mine. biggrin


Originally Posted by theOden
Should teach people NOT to buy stuff to "support" companies, their wish will not come true but the other way around, companies will think "this is good enough" as the money keep pouring in.

I was a total DCS fanboi during the DCS A10C phase. That's why I bought DCS BS2... to support them. My interest in the airframe was minimal, but I bought the module to give them my support. When they started coming out with Combined Arms and the seemingly lack of focus with module development, I then adopted a wait-and-see approach and I'm glad I did. They've been going downhill ever since.


Originally Posted by theOden
What DCS tells me is, graphics are way more important that simulation nowadays.

A sentiment echoed by a good number of their supporters. Some of them even write off BMS because it's not a commercial product made by full-time developers. That's when I bring out the "yeah, but this non-commercial product brings DCS to shame and the work-on-our-spare-time-for-free developers seems to know how to put out proper patches and improvements to a sim that they have to REVERSE ENGINEER first whereas DCS devs seem to trip on their three left feet in a sim where they have total control over the code and which they built themselves." Much wailing and gnashing of teeth ensues.


Originally Posted by theOden
Like all other previous years, Wags tells us 2017 will be awesome.

It'll be awesome for THEM. Not for their customers. 2016 was when the Hornet was supposed to come out. No news on that front, eh? It's frikkin' April and we've resorted to making an April Fools post regarding the Hornet.


Originally Posted by theOden
after several weeks of evening hours and full day saturdays fighting LUA code to make DCS more alive

My last days in DCS was spent trying to script in AI flights that would populate the airfield so that take offs and RTBs would be more interesting. I had known about BMS 4.32 for months before, but didn't bother to test it... but after so many hours wasted in scripting and testing and scripting and testing, I decided to give BMS a go... and in our FIRST multiplayer flight, we panicked because we had 4 contacts heading straight for us. A quick AWACS declare marked them as friendly, confirmed via our TGPs, and moments later, we were passed by a 4-ship of F-15s on their way home. One of the guys said "You don't see that in DCS!!" and he was correct. BMS just spat out what I was trying to do in DCS, and BMS simply had it because of the way Falcon worked.

End of the day, it's this:
Want to practice in a sterile, controlled environment? DCS. This statement applies to both training and scripted campaigns.
Want to be a pilot in an ongoing war? BMS.

Want to take pretty screenshots? DCS.
Want to actually FIGHT and be too busy to be taking screenshots? BMS.

biggrin


- Ice
#4348537 - 04/02/17 01:01 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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haha good responses Ice, and this "You don't see that in DCS!!" is so true!

#4348596 - 04/02/17 06:05 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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I'm really interested in the F-14 and the F-18 but I'm also heartbroken. I'm old and miss Fleet defender and Janes F/A 18. The DCS versions will not provide the fun I seek. It's been one disappointment after another with them. If it wasn't for Falcon.... Well............

I know i'll buy them and be miserable for weeks though.

It's good to see some folks re-discovering BMS and showing what a great 'experience' it is.

#4348601 - 04/02/17 06:17 PM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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Dom, did you miss the announcement for DCS F/A-18?? Some pretty good stuff there, gets me excited!! biggrin biggrin biggrin

I was quite crap at Jane's F/A-18 and really spent most of my time doing carrier quals. In that regard, I think DCS would suit me quite well. I'll buy both modules and be happy practicing A-A refuelling and carrier quals in all weather and buzzing the tower and collecting butts! wink


- Ice
#4349651 - 04/07/17 08:04 AM Re: My Falcon Odyssey [Re: DBond]  
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DB?

DB...you #%&*$#! Holy #%&*$#!

Now I'm going to have to read this whole damn thread. I'm also going to have to read the more recent ones about a campaign server that is up and running somewhere.

I think I'm also going to have to learn how to get my pit up and running again.

Damn you DB.

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