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#4326542 - 01/07/17 01:10 AM Some questions on where to start  
Joined: Dec 2016
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Barra Offline
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Barra  Offline
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Australia
Hi seeking some starter help - I think!

I started considering my 1st set of rudder pedals recently, then eventually decided maybe I can maybe make them myself - this was after visiting many websites (getting the better ones landed in Aus is not cheap). Then I thought that if I need to buy a board I may as well try and add a few more axis’s and switches. The big problem I have is that I have never done anything like this. The electronics build may be hard but at least my friendly neighbour has done that in the past. The big issue is connecting to a PC and neighbour does not know that side. Building the pedals will maybe be the easy part.

I have read with interest many of posts here and on other boards. However, a post here (http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4301684/Arduino_Mega_software_for_any_#Post4301684) by Viper1970 rang true with me. I am engaged mainly with CLOD and ROF. However also do a little bit in DCS but I do want to get more into that one especially with the new Spit and maybe the FA/18 when it gets there.

I also do not have a pit area as I use PC in main living area. Everything I will do will be attached or semi attached to dedicated chair which is what I currently do with Saitek X52Pro. I have worked a concept out where I can have pedals attached to chair along with a small fold up box on the side for extra axis and switches. However, as this is all in the living area I always disconnect X52 after a session and re-connect for next. So I would also need to do the same with pedals/box.

Following are some general questions to help make final decision on whether to proceed or not:-

I want to add common axis that will be used over most sims and I can see maybe 8 axis (this is not a fixed figure) on top of existing X52. Also of course some switches. Would a Teensy 2++ be something to look at?

Will new axis conflict with x52 axis?

Will disconnect and reconnect of board be an issue?

What type of switches are generally used - SPST? What would you use for replicating Spit Flap up and flap down as against a toggle switch (I assume most switches will be just off/on)?

Is the PC software connection really difficult for new players(no code experience but have tinkered with SQL)?

Is the length of wire from board to PC an issue?

I have read that windows only recognises 32 keys and 8 axis. Is this per board/joystick?

I would somehow need to cater for full wheel brakes on Spit to left/right brakes on other planes. Not sure how?

My 1st tentative step would be getting the board and try making the hall effect sensors. If that works then I would go further. Or maybe get a couple of clone micro’s or something and put a couple of switches on it and test the process from start to go.

All help thoughts appreciated.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4326607 - 01/07/17 03:09 PM Re: Some questions on where to start [Re: Barra]  
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Pfeil Offline
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Pfeil  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Barra
axis’s

One axis, multiple axes.



Originally Posted By: Barra
The electronics build may be hard

If you buy a controller board, you'll be doing electrical connections only. I.E. wires from the buttons/switchs/potentiometers/etc... to the controller.

You may need to learn how to solder, but if your neighbour helps you out I'm sure you'll get the hang of it.

Originally Posted By: Barra
I want to add common axis that will be used over most sims and I can see maybe 8 axis (this is not a fixed figure) on top of existing X52. Also of course some switches. Would a Teensy 2++ be something to look at?

I've personally not used it, but MMJoy(2) is a feature-rich firmware package to turn a number of "development" boards, like Arduino/Teensy, into joystick controllers. They do require a few steps to make functional.

If you want a true plug-and-play solution, Leo Bodnar makes boards that support HAL sensors and rotary encoders. They're not cheap, but they're robust, and easy to use.

Originally Posted By: Barra
Will new axis conflict with x52 axis?

They won't conflict in that they don't modify the x52. Both devices will work independently.

If you were using old software that only supports a single controller, you'd have to combine the two, but as CLOD, ROF, and DCS all support multiple controllers you shouldn't have to worry about it.

Originally Posted By: Barra
Will disconnect and reconnect of board be an issue?

It depends on the software(simulator/game), but DCS at least keeps proper track of different devices. Unless you use multiple devices with the same USB ID, it should work.

Originally Posted By: Barra
What type of switches are generally used - SPST? What would you use for replicating Spit Flap up and flap down as against a toggle switch (I assume most switches will be just off/on)?

Switches have a number of markings:

SP or DP stand for Single Pole or Double Pole, respectively. This means the amount of different electrical circuits it can complete. For Double Pole two separate circuits are present and switched, for Single Pole only one. Generally you only need Single Pole for a joystick device.
Some toggle switches may have more than two poles to be able to switch more circuits simultaneously, but you are under no obligation to connect more than one.

ST or DT stand for Single Throw or Double Throw, respectively. This means the amount of connections per switched circuit. For Double Throw, you have 3 connections: One input and two outputs. One output is off while the other is on, and vice-versa. Single Throw means you only have one input and one output, so when the switch is operated the output is turned off or on.
The relative advantage of Double Throw switches is that they can switch two outputs in hardware, so if you need two functions on a single switch, and you can't do it in software, you can connect each of the outputs to a pin on your controller board to toggle two buttons. The disadvantage to doing this is requiring more wires, fewer switches per controller(because the switch will take up two buttons).
If you find a Double Throw switch, you're free to only connect one input and one output, and leave the rest unconnected(effectively using it like a Single Throw switch).

on-off, (on)-off, (on)-off-(on), (off)-on, etc... relate the type of physical switching action. "on" means the switch will conduct electricity in that position, "off" means it will not. any position in brackets, E.G. "(on)" means the action is momentary, I.E. it's spring loaded, and when moved to that position will automatically return to another position.
on-off is a standard Single Throw switch, on-on is a standard Double Throw switch, (on)-off-(on) will always return to the center position, so it'll only press the buttons while you're pushing or pulling the switch.

Originally Posted By: Barra
Is the PC software connection really difficult for new players(no code experience but have tinkered with SQL)?

Joystick boards connect as a DirectInput device, which is natively supported by Windows(XP and up, at least). If you don't require specific configuration or calibration, you should be able to plug in the device, start the game, and assign your buttons and axes.

Originally Posted By: Barra
Is the length of wire from board to PC an issue?

Just about all joystick boards use a USB connection, which is digital, so as long as you observe the USB specification of 5 meters for high speed devices(3m for low speed), you should be fine. If you need more distance you'll have to bridge the gap with a(powered) USB hub.

Note that long wires from potentiometers or analog-output HAL effect sensors to the controller board can and likely will introduce noise(jitter).

Originally Posted By: Barra
I have read that windows only recognises 32 keys and 8 axis. Is this per board/joystick?

As mentioned previously, your device is independent from the x52, so that's 32 buttons and 8 axes in addition to that.

In theory, DirectInput should actually support 128 buttons per device, but from what I've heard few games actually support over 32 buttons.

Originally Posted By: Barra
I would somehow need to cater for full wheel brakes on Spit to left/right brakes on other planes. Not sure how?

Are you sure your simulator of choice doesn't do this in software already? It can easily treat both brake axis as cumulative for the spit, and independent for others.

Last edited by Pfeil; 01/07/17 03:13 PM.
#4326846 - 01/08/17 12:15 PM Re: Some questions on where to start [Re: Pfeil]  
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 115
Barra Offline
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Barra  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 115
Australia
Originally Posted By: Pfeil
One axis, multiple axes.


Is answer "D":))

Originally Posted By: Pfeil
You may need to learn how to solder, but if your neighbour helps you out I'm sure you'll get the hang of it.

No issues as I have do soldering before but neighbour has better equipment and skills.



Originally Posted By: Barra
I want to add common axis that will be used over most sims and I can see maybe 8 axis (this is not a fixed figure) on top of existing X52. Also of course some switches. Would a Teensy 2++ be something to look at?

Originally Posted By: Pfeil
I've personally not used it, but MMJoy(2) is a feature-rich firmware package to turn a number of "development" boards, like Arduino/Teensy, into joystick controllers. They do require a few steps to make functional.

If you want a true plug-and-play solution, Leo Bodnar makes boards that support HAL sensors and rotary encoders. They're not cheap, but they're robust, and easy to use.


Still unsure which way to go?


Originally Posted By: Pfeil
Switches have a number of markings:

SP or DP stand for Single Pole...

Thanks for all that detail. I have been doing a lot of reading over last 2 days and so I am starting to get a handle on that stuff.

Originally Posted By: Pfeil
Joystick boards connect as a DirectInput device, which is natively supported by Windows(XP and up, at least). If you don't require specific configuration or calibration, you should be able to plug in the device, start the game, and assign your buttons and axes.


No sure when you would require specific configuration or calibration so am a bit lost there.


Originally Posted By: Pfeil
As mentioned previously, your device is independent from the x52, so that's 32 buttons and 8 axes in addition to that.

Ok

Originally Posted By: Barra
Are you sure your simulator of choice doesn't do this in software already? It can easily treat both brake axis as cumulative for the spit, and independent for others.

They may well do but as I have only ever used a twist stick for the rudder I am unaware of these setups.

I have also decided to start with a small box of just a few switches (maybe 3/4) that will sit alongside the throttle control along with a single hall sensor. This will stay as a small separate board from anything I may do with the rudder setup. I think this will give me a better and smaller starting project to work the process from start to finish without all the mechanical construction of the rudders project.

As this is a smaller project and I would prefer to start with lower cost would an alternative board to the Leo Bodnar board be better?

#4326852 - 01/08/17 01:18 PM Re: Some questions on where to start [Re: Barra]  
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Sokol1 Offline
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Quote:
Generally you only need Single Pole for a joystick device.


This varies, in some case a DP switch can be useful.

For example, Spit fire flaps, that has only UP and DOWN position.

If get a simple SPST (ON-OFF) switch, when the switch is moved down (OFF) nothings happens in game.

Then you need a 3 pin switch (ON-none-ON) and maybe DPST to be allow to wire both positions independent.



The complication with ON-OF etc switchs is: games is dome for momentary key/button press commands, they rarely looks for permanent ON commands. And in most case use the dumb press to ON, press to OFF, eg. the G only for landing gear.
Some games don't allow map different keys for gear up and gear down, what avoid accidental commands and out of sync issues.

To deal with this will be need a software between the controller and games to send command in ON (UP) and OFF (DOWN) position, e.g. SVMapper, Joy2Key, XPadder, Autohokey...

Or a firmware with this ability native, example: http://lynx.dk/cub-firmware/

Based on this, don't buy only one type of switch, but various and experiment.

Quote:
I would somehow need to cater for full wheel brakes on Spit to left/right brakes on other planes. Not sure how?



Spitfire (and most of British, Russian, Italian... planes ow WWII) don't has brakes on foots, know as "tip toe brakes".

They are braked though a bicycle like brake lever on control column.

So for this planes the brakes on games rudder pedal, who are 2 individual axes has no use - if the simulator is done correctly.

The most easy way to deal with this is assign a button in joystick to press "wheel brakes" (both), this will brake both wheels equally. Moving the rudder for right or left will brake only the right or left wheel, like in real planes. In these a differential valve is linked with rudder bar, to manage what wheel will be braked.

This joystick will come with analog lever for this kind of brake:

http://i.imgur.com/iXjm0xdl.jpg











#4326888 - 01/08/17 03:54 PM Re: Some questions on where to start [Re: Sokol1]  
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Pfeil Offline
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Pfeil  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sokol1
Quote:
Generally you only need Single Pole for a joystick device.

If get a simple SPST (ON-OFF) switch, when the switch is moved down (OFF) nothings happens in game.

Then you need a 3 pin switch (ON-none-ON) and maybe DPST to be allow to wire both positions independent.

Double Pole Single Throw(DPST) means two circuits that are simultaneously conducting while the switch is in one position, but nothing conducting in the other position.

Single Pole Double Throw(SPDT) on the other hand, which your on-off-on switch would likely be, allows for three states: Position one conducting while position two is not, both positions not conducting, position one not conducting while position two is.
I can see why someone would choose this type of switch, as you can manually decide whether to press the button ingame or not. However, this means every two-position switch becomes a three-position switch, which is less realistic. Comes down to personal preference I suppose.

Double Pole Double Throw(DPDT) is an odd requirement as well, just about any controller board I know uses a common connection to the common terminal on the switch, and individual button connections to the switching terminals on said switch.

I've seen people use Double Pole switches to drive LEDs to visually represent the state of the switch(independent from the simulator), by wiring to an independent circuit with a power source(as controller boards are generally limited in the current they can supply), which seems a more likely scenario.

#4328654 - 01/15/17 11:32 AM Re: Some questions on where to start [Re: Barra]  
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Barra Offline
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Barra  Offline
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Thanks Pfeil and Sokol1 for advice.

Having done more research I think I can understand this better. I also understand that when flying various types of aircraft in different sims it will be hard to have a good number of common switches.

It now understand that most joysticks have momentary switches like in a keyboard. i.e. when you press "A" once you get an "A" on your document. Other than the various Axes it would seem that the only switch on my Saitek X52 Pro that is not a momentary button is the Mode dial on the Joystick. Is this an Encoder?

Also not sure what the rotaries on the throttle are, but I assume a potentiometer.

The Spit's flaps are a good example. So either I use the momentary switch to engage flaps in 1 direction and another for opposite direction (which I currently do by keyboard) or I have to use key mapping software to operate a normal SPST lever/toggle switch to raise/lower flaps which would be somewhat more realistic but more complicated. I am assuming that if you were to use the on-off-on switch you need to return it to "off" after flipping it up/down so that the switch does not keep the "on" circuit open.

Is this style of switch another alternative when combined with key mapping? http://www.banggood.com/3-Pins-Toggle-Switch-AC-125V-6A-2-Position-SPDT-p-916750.html

Are multi position flaps handles by axis or encoders or does this again depend on sim?

Using a button to represent wheel brakes on Spit is what I am doing now. So yes I understand this will most likely remain the case unless you can add brakes to an axis via a pot. Would this be correct?

#4328663 - 01/15/17 12:52 PM Re: Some questions on where to start [Re: Barra]  
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Sokol1 Offline
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For Spit flaps you need a ON-NONE-ON 3 pin switch, e.g. E-Switch series 100, model SP1.

https://www.e-switch.com/product-catalog...es#.WHtvZrbyuM8

The On-None-On means that lever jump from 1 to 3 without stop in 2 (the OFF in on-off-on switch).

No problem in this switch be always on in one position unless in old games.

Anyway Arduino firmware like MMjoy2 or Lynx allow you to make this permanent ON send only a briefly signal for computer/games.

Of course can be used too a ON-OFF 2 pin switch + keymapper with "on press" and "on release" ability.


#4329334 - 01/18/17 12:14 PM Re: Some questions on where to start [Re: Barra]  
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Just want to chime in that most ARM microcontrollers can probably be a joystick. For example, I use a stm32 - which is dirt cheap.

Toggle switches are an issue for most games I would suggest. I have lately been thinking about adding another toggle switch to fix this.

Ok. So you're toggle switchs are either active HIGH or active LOW on the micro-controller side. LOW means that when the button is active, the pin input is connected to ground. HIGH means that when the button is active, the pin input is connected to a positive voltage.

So typically the Ground (or positive voltage) is connected to ALL the switches. Pull (up) or down resistors are used to change the voltage on the pin back to before the button was switched.

My thoughts were that common ground (or positive voltage) could be connected to another toggle switch - that way, you can change the toggle switches back to their correct state easily.


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