Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#4324723 - 12/30/16 07:41 PM Using VR headset with non-VR games?  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Just wanted to post this here as my poor research skills aren't turning up much:

Basically, is there any way to use a VR headset with games that do not support VR? My main issue is with regards to Falcon BMS. I can use it on a traditional screen with TrackIR, I can use it in VR using "desktop mode" or using Virtual Desktop but I'm left with a big world with nothing in it and just a small screen in front of me displaying BMS; not even a three screen setup which is what I have IRL. And no head tracking as apparently, the Vive sensors get confused if the player is also using a Track Clip Pro.

Just wondering if people who've had their headsets for longer are aware of a program/mod that will allow the use of VR in such games/sims. Thanks in advance!


- Ice
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4324745 - 12/30/16 08:26 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,839
Allen Offline
Hotshot
Allen  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 8,839
Ohio USA
I too am interested in the answer to this one.


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#4324800 - 12/31/16 02:18 AM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 8,677
kludger Offline
Hotshot
kludger  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 8,677
SE Pennsylvania, USA
I know on reddit I've seen good impressions from people who use an app called "VorpX" to play 2D games as VR stereoscopic mode:
http://www.vorpx.com/

From checking the supported games list I don't see Falcon on there but who knows... I've never used it myself.


i7-7700k@4.5ghz, GTX1080Ti,BenQ XL2420G-g-sync,Oculus Rift
#4324845 - 12/31/16 12:48 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,699
Aeronautico Offline
Member
Aeronautico  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,699
Milan, Italy
I would really really like to know if it can take TrackIR's place for the simulations that support it. Original IL-2 for example, but not just that: F1 and DiRT games, MotoGP maybe, ArmA on a vheicle or aircraft, RoF, CloD, X-series, etc...


Airplanes are now built to carry a pilot and a dog in the cockpit: the pilot's job is
to feed the dog, and the dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything...

- Arlen Rens, Lockheed Martin test pilot
#4324918 - 12/31/16 05:22 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Yeah, heard about vorpx from my latest research. Need to try it out.

Aero, apparently you can't use TIR **AND** VR at the same time, at least for the Vive as the lighthouse sensors confuse the Track Clip for one of it's own and you end up with bad tracking. I wonder if it's the same case if using the reflective clip... again, needs testing.


- Ice
#4325298 - 01/02/17 02:42 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,296
Mark Aisthorpe Offline
Crazy Courier
Mark Aisthorpe  Offline
Crazy Courier
Senior Member

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,296
London UK
I just tried it and Falcon BMS doesn't work with VorpeX.

The menus appear but there almost impossible to use and once in game I just get a black screen in both the Rift and on the monitor, couldn't even escape out had to hard reset the PC to get out.

VorpeX is a bit hit and miss, I've had some success with it but some games that it claims to support either don't work or look awful. Falcon 4 or BMS isn't on the list of supported game.

Last edited by Mark Aisthorpe; 01/02/17 02:43 PM.

Asus Maximus XI Hero
i9-9900K
32Gb Corsair Vengeance Pro DDR4 3200MHz
MSI RTX 2080Ti Ventus
Corsair H115i
Corsair RM850X PSU
Phanteks Evolv X
Asus VG32G Monitor 2560x1440
Win 10
#4325337 - 01/02/17 05:33 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
I have a thread over at the VorpX forums and like I said, Falcon BMS **runs** with VorpX, it just doesn't display a visual image. I can hear the engine run every time I start up a mission, I can even exit the mission (ESC, E) and go back to the 2D menu. I can't imagine why the image is lost when I can have BMS run using Virtual Desktop or TriDef 3D and show the image when the game is in 3D cockpit. The only thing missing really is headtracking support and these other options can be a make-do effort.

I wonder if I should just ask for a refund for my VorpX purchase as I've no interest in playing other games in 3D?


- Ice
#4325350 - 01/02/17 06:34 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,296
Mark Aisthorpe Offline
Crazy Courier
Mark Aisthorpe  Offline
Crazy Courier
Senior Member

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,296
London UK
Before you ask for a refund give Portal 2 a quick try if you have it, it blew me away. There is a little bit of cfg editing to do so the portal gun doesn't look HUGE but other than that it runs and plays great.

The biggest problems I've had with Vorpex are.

1. In game menu's, you usually need to use edge peek to use most of them, some don't seem to work at all, the pipboy in Fallout 4 is almost useless for instance.

2. Head tracking. In FPS type games its not a big deal, panning about with the mouse as normal seems to be OK, it would be nice to be able to separate the gun and head views but its usable.
In flight and race Sims though it very disorienting if it doesn't work, trying to look about in Rfactor 2 when the view stays still is the closest I'v come to motion sickness so far.

- Ice I know you said you have no interest in playing other games in 3D but at least give it a try first, you might be surprised and change your mind.


Asus Maximus XI Hero
i9-9900K
32Gb Corsair Vengeance Pro DDR4 3200MHz
MSI RTX 2080Ti Ventus
Corsair H115i
Corsair RM850X PSU
Phanteks Evolv X
Asus VG32G Monitor 2560x1440
Win 10
#4325360 - 01/02/17 07:18 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
I've never been a fan of Portal and have never touched those games. Any other games you'd recommend? Everyone's harping about Fallout 4; I don't have that yet but wonder if New Vegas would work... but then again I've not touched that game in YEARS.


- Ice
#4325370 - 01/02/17 07:55 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,296
Mark Aisthorpe Offline
Crazy Courier
Mark Aisthorpe  Offline
Crazy Courier
Senior Member

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,296
London UK
I couldn't get the Pipboy in Fallout 4 to work properly but I have to admit I didn't spend much time trying so it may be doable.
Half-Life 2 and episodes work great, Arma 3 seems to work OK but I haven't spent very long with it, Thief and Dishonered also work OK.

I'v mainly been trying Sims with varying success. RoF doesn't work, no 3D or head tracing. IL-2 has some basic 3D that seems to glitch when firing the guns + no head tracking. Rfactor, GTR2, GTL ect. all just seem to lack head tracking.

Apparently its possible to fool some games into thinking the Rift and Vive are TiR's with Freetrack but I haven't got round to messing with it yet.


Asus Maximus XI Hero
i9-9900K
32Gb Corsair Vengeance Pro DDR4 3200MHz
MSI RTX 2080Ti Ventus
Corsair H115i
Corsair RM850X PSU
Phanteks Evolv X
Asus VG32G Monitor 2560x1440
Win 10
#4325442 - 01/03/17 02:10 AM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,475
strykerpsg Offline
Member
strykerpsg  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,475
Land of the Morning Calm
Great discussion! I have been waiting for someone to post their findings regarding non-VR title support. I would also love to see a comparison of the two, in the same title, to see the pros and cons of both.


Laptop:
Alienware M17 R3
i7-6820MQ
32 GB DDR3 1600Mhz memory, Win10 Pro 64 bit, DX11,
24GB GTX 980M video
Alienware Graphics Amplifier w GTX 1080 Strix Edition 8GB
A-10 Warthog HOTAS Joystick w/ Pedals
#4325520 - 01/03/17 01:14 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
RSColonel_131st  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
As it kinda fits here...

Anyone using a PS4 VR as "monitor" for PC, with maybe TrackIR for head position?

#4325551 - 01/03/17 04:00 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
SkateZilla Offline
Skate Zilla Graphics
SkateZilla  Offline
Skate Zilla Graphics
Veteran

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
Virginia Beach, VA
TrackIR doesnt work with Rift Either, depending on Application you either get TrackIR Overriding Oculus or TrackIR Merging
Overriding = it somehow disables Oculus Position and IMU Rotation and Sync, and you get no movement at all.
Merging = You Look Left and both the Oculus IMU and the trackIR values merge, so looking left 10° = 10° + TrackIr's input °

if BMS Supported SBS/Stereo Scopic Rendering, You could do what some people in DCS Do w/ Motion Rigs.
-Disable the Oculus Runtime,
-Disable Oculus DirectDisplay,
-Run the Rift as a Extended Screen,
-Put DCS on Stereoscopic Mode
-Use Custom TrackIR LED Setup to Get Tracking in 1:1 covering as much space as possible (TrackIR wasnt designed to track 360°, so you'll hit dead spots)

The Issues w/ Oculus and Motion Platforms is the IMU = Primary Rotational Sensor, Camera is Used for Position and Sync, so On a Motion platform, every platform movement is assumed to be head movement by the Rift's IMU.



IIRC Someone had BMS Falcon working on his Rift DK2, But not CV1.

The Problem is Menu is locked to 1024x768, and rift doesnt support it.

Solution is Prolly the same.
-Disable Oculus DirectDisplay, Allow HMD to be used as Extended Screen,
-Setup BMS to Run 2160x1200
-Launch BMS on Main Screen for menus, once in game w/ tri-def/stereo scopic settings, drag window to extended display, Alt+Enter to Full Screen it.
-Use Alternate Tracking System.




**Note I'm not sure how Vive works w/ Display management, ie Disabling DirectDisplay, is something I know how to do for oculus.**

When a Rift CV is Plugged in, the user does not see it as a monitor in windows, it's hidden by the Runtimes, even when in use, a simple Command prompt command can change it from being hidden to an extended display monitor, but it will disable head tracking etc etc, not to mention, adjusting ANY resolution and screen properties would mess up things requiring a bunch of re-installing of GPU drivers and monitor profiles.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 01/03/17 04:13 PM.

HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro,
Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133,
2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ.,
3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV
CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals
Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
#4325600 - 01/03/17 06:33 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Thanks for the input, Skate! Apparently, whatever tech TrackIR is using is the same tech the Vive is using to get head position information so yes, the two overlap each other enough that the TIR is no longer useful.

BMS does offer a little bit of SBS but the picture does not line up perfectly. I'm using TriDef 3D and/or Virtual Desktop to achieve this, but the 3D effect is minimal and like I said, somewhat distorted on the bottom 3rd. While your suggestion of using the headset as another "monitor" is interesting, won't it only display in front of the user? Essentially working like a headset TrackIR instead of looking at a physical monitor? I don't mind a 1:1 head tracking but yeah, I think it'll only do 90 degrees left and right; can't do a full "check six" with the TrackIR.


- Ice
#4325624 - 01/03/17 06:56 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 951
NamelessPFG Offline
Member
NamelessPFG  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 951
The TrackIR is really more akin to Oculus Constellation tracking than anything, except without the low-latency IMUs that Oculus depends on. They're both IR cameras looking for IR point sources.

The Vive uses Valve's Lighthouse system, which is more akin to the way CRT light guns worked with how the base stations sweep the room across a given axis. The HMD and controllers register the IR laser sweep on their photocells - not just the timing of the sweep, but also which photocells were lit (or not lit, in the case of occlusion) and in what order. Pretty clever, really.

Either way, the tracking is so good that it makes TrackIR redundant and obsolete, if not for the fact that both the Rift CV1 and Vive are a pain to use for anything that doesn't specifically support VR direct mode.

I recall trying out Vireio Perception for a bit, but it fell well short of my expectations in terms of just working like I wanted it to - not just for Falcon BMS, but IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946 and Rise of Flight. That was several versions ago, but I'm not holding my breath.

The problem is that a lot of these older titles aren't really designed with stereoscopic 3D rendering in mind (wrong depths, artifacts when certain effects are used, completely incorrect FOV/visual scale, etc.), and even if they are, you also have to sort out TrackIR emulation to actually use the superior Rift or Vive head-tracking. Emulated mouselook is just half-assing it and denies you the use of your actual mouse.

Also, like you said, all these virtual monitor apps don't have the virtual screen floating in front of your face at all times, which kills the viability of TrackIR emulation for our purposes.

At any rate, if anyone figures out something for IL-2: 1946 or RoF, let me know. Falcon BMS would be icing on the cake, but I don't expect the BMS team to bother with native Oculus or OpenVR support for a long while.

#4325634 - 01/03/17 07:11 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: NamelessPFG]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Originally Posted By: NamelessPFG
Also, like you said, all these virtual monitor apps don't have the virtual screen floating in front of your face at all times, which kills the viability of TrackIR emulation for our purposes.

At any rate, if anyone figures out something for IL-2: 1946 or RoF, let me know. Falcon BMS would be icing on the cake, but I don't expect the BMS team to bother with native Oculus or OpenVR support for a long while.


I'd settle for a floating screen that "looks" whatever way my head is pointing... would be so fun to dogfight on a 1:1 head tracking. I admit I'm ignoring the other issues such as low picture quality but hey.... biggrin


- Ice
#4325654 - 01/03/17 08:09 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,699
Aeronautico Offline
Member
Aeronautico  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,699
Milan, Italy
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Aero, apparently you can't use TIR **AND** VR at the same time

Hi and thanks for replying. I have not read yet the rest f the thread but mind you, I didn't mean that! Neither I get why one would like to do so. What I meant was, using the VR as a mere display and tracking device using maybe the TrackIR functionality: no 3D, no TrackIR software, certainly not its hardware.


Airplanes are now built to carry a pilot and a dog in the cockpit: the pilot's job is
to feed the dog, and the dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything...

- Arlen Rens, Lockheed Martin test pilot
#4325659 - 01/03/17 08:26 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
SkateZilla Offline
Skate Zilla Graphics
SkateZilla  Offline
Skate Zilla Graphics
Veteran

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
Virginia Beach, VA
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Thanks for the input, Skate! Apparently, whatever tech TrackIR is using is the same tech the Vive is using to get head position information so yes, the two overlap each other enough that the TIR is no longer useful.

BMS does offer a little bit of SBS but the picture does not line up perfectly. I'm using TriDef 3D and/or Virtual Desktop to achieve this, but the 3D effect is minimal and like I said, somewhat distorted on the bottom 3rd. While your suggestion of using the headset as another "monitor" is interesting, won't it only display in front of the user? Essentially working like a headset TrackIR instead of looking at a physical monitor? I don't mind a 1:1 head tracking but yeah, I think it'll only do 90 degrees left and right; can't do a full "check six" with the TrackIR.



Vive uses Lighthouses w/ Lasers to sense position of and sync Vive Unit. and IMU to Sense Orientation.
Oculus uses IMU for Orientation and a LED IR Grid w/ Camera to track position, and Sync.

TrackIR either Emits IR via IR LEDs to reflect off the reflectors, or sees IR from External IR Sources.


The Issue most people are having is TrackIR/NaturalPoints Drivers, Tend to Override other Input Methods when their software is open.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 01/04/17 03:55 PM.

HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro,
Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133,
2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ.,
3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV
CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals
Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
#4325661 - 01/03/17 08:30 PM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
SkateZilla Offline
Skate Zilla Graphics
SkateZilla  Offline
Skate Zilla Graphics
Veteran

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 17,632
Virginia Beach, VA
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Originally Posted By: NamelessPFG
Also, like you said, all these virtual monitor apps don't have the virtual screen floating in front of your face at all times, which kills the viability of TrackIR emulation for our purposes.

At any rate, if anyone figures out something for IL-2: 1946 or RoF, let me know. Falcon BMS would be icing on the cake, but I don't expect the BMS team to bother with native Oculus or OpenVR support for a long while.


I'd settle for a floating screen that "looks" whatever way my head is pointing... would be so fun to dogfight on a 1:1 head tracking. I admit I'm ignoring the other issues such as low picture quality but hey.... biggrin


There isnt a Lock/Glue Position in the VR Desktop apps? so the picture moves with your head movements.

Then you Can Try FaceTrackNoIR + Oculus Plugin to Take Oculus Head Movement from Camera to turn into TrackIR or Open Track Inputs for the Sim.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 01/03/17 08:31 PM.

HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro,
Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133,
2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ.,
3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV
CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals
Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
#4325745 - 01/04/17 02:46 AM Re: Using VR headset with non-VR games? [Re: SkateZilla]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,475
strykerpsg Offline
Member
strykerpsg  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,475
Land of the Morning Calm
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Originally Posted By: NamelessPFG
Also, like you said, all these virtual monitor apps don't have the virtual screen floating in front of your face at all times, which kills the viability of TrackIR emulation for our purposes.

At any rate, if anyone figures out something for IL-2: 1946 or RoF, let me know. Falcon BMS would be icing on the cake, but I don't expect the BMS team to bother with native Oculus or OpenVR support for a long while.


I'd settle for a floating screen that "looks" whatever way my head is pointing... would be so fun to dogfight on a 1:1 head tracking. I admit I'm ignoring the other issues such as low picture quality but hey.... biggrin


There isnt a Lock/Glue Position in the VR Desktop apps? so the picture moves with your head movements.

Then you Can Try FaceTrackNoIR + Oculus Plugin to Take Oculus Head Movement from Camera to turn into TrackIR or Open Track Inputs for the Sim.


Disregard, answered in another thread. Apologies for the noob question.

So, if I understand all of this correctly, there is not natural head movement that automatically slews to the direction you are turning your head? If not, then current method is keyboard or joystick hat?

Last edited by strykerpsg; 01/04/17 04:51 AM.

Laptop:
Alienware M17 R3
i7-6820MQ
32 GB DDR3 1600Mhz memory, Win10 Pro 64 bit, DX11,
24GB GTX 980M video
Alienware Graphics Amplifier w GTX 1080 Strix Edition 8GB
A-10 Warthog HOTAS Joystick w/ Pedals
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0