#4322596 - 12/23/16 04:12 AM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (WIP)
[Re: OldHat]
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OldHat
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In order to validate the claim to "conserve fuel enroute to the mission", I was looking up fuel consumption and it seems that WOFF does not model it correctly. I will test further and see if the fuel load needs to be cut in half before takeoff to give your plane only 1.5 to 2 hours of flight time.
According to a post in theaerodrome
"Endurance for fighter is based on fuel consumption of the engine at full power at a specific altitude. If you look at the the specification for an engine they give the fuel consumption at so much grams, ounces or lbs per horse power per hour. For example the 160 Ps (hp) Mercedes D.III data sheets gives the fuel consumption @ 230 grams or 230 / 1000 =.023kg per hour per hour and the oil consumption at 20 grams per Ps(hp) You are the designer and you want your fighter to have a two hour flight duration at full power, it will require: Fuel 2hrs x .230kg x 160 ps = 73.6 kg fuel. Oil 2 hr. x .02 kg x 160 = 6.4 kg. oil generally engineers use 1/10 of the fuel to determine the oil require or in the case 7.2 kg of oil. The 150 hp Hispano-Suiza Model A engine has a fuel consumption of .52 lbs per hour hour per hp = 150 x .52 = 78 lbs. Gasoline weighs 7.2 lbs per gallon, 78/ 7.2 = 10.83 gallons or gallons x 4.545 = liters, 10.83 x 4.545 = 49.2 liters per hour. If the fuel tank capacity is known you can then determine the duration. The Spad VII DATAFILE on page 24 , gives tha endurance as 1 1/2 hours, by dropping the rpm from 1450 to a cruise rpm of1300 would lower the fuel consumption, horse power and extend the length of duration. An aside The Spad VII with the 150 hp Type 8A Hispano-Suiza was a marginal fighter aircraft, it was too heavy. The problem was solved when SPAD went to the 180 Hp Hispano-Suiza Type 8Ab engine, then it WAS a fighter! Blue skies, Dan-San"
EDIT: After running the SPAD VII at full throttle for 2 hours, it still had 44% fuel remaining. Therefore, I have adjusted my recommendations further in the post above.
EDIT 2: Unfortunately, after several tests, I found that adjusting mixture control in WOFF has no effect on fuel consumption. It is the same fuel consumption whether you fly full rich or 50% lean.
Last edited by OldHat; 12/23/16 04:03 PM. Reason: more comments
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#4322798 - 12/23/16 10:20 PM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (WIP)
[Re: OldHat]
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Panama Red
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So are you saying to just set your Auto Mixture to "ON" and forget it ???
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#4322810 - 12/23/16 11:19 PM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (WIP)
[Re: OldHat]
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Panama Red
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I do that by just cutting the throttle, while still using Auto Mixture.
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#4322830 - 12/24/16 12:15 AM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (WIP)
[Re: OldHat]
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OldHat
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That's fine how you enjoy to play the game and others will use the blip switch in a dive or a combination of both. However, if you want to fly the plane as they had done it back then there was no throttle on planes with engines of Gnome Monosoupape, Le Rhone, or Clerget. My understanding is that once you're engine was cranked, you were at full power. Then you'd either take off or use the blip switch to taxi. Or cut the engine by either the magnetos or the fuel in a prolonged dive.
one interesting comment from theaerodrome forum:
"Pilots could and did sometimes have to start the engine on their own, but it required some fancy footwork. He would have to throw the prop himself and then get into the cockpit of the moving aircraft before it picked up too much speed. This would require running away from the aeroplane to avoid the wing as it started forward, and then doubling back to get into the cockpit. He could also duck under the wing and let it pass over his head, I suppose, although that "strikes" me as rather risky. Too close to the prop if a wheel hit a bump and changed the direction of the aeroplane, and good chance of a whack on the head from the trailing edge of the wing.
This was done numerous times during the War following forced landings. If the engine was still warm, it would restart readily."
EDIT: and what I'm trying to accomplish with this MOD is to try to physically handicap the player to fly&shoot like it was recorded to have been done at that time according to my research.
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#4322837 - 12/24/16 12:48 AM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (WIP)
[Re: OldHat]
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Panama Red
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Monosoupape rotaries
It is often asserted that rotary engines had no carburetor and hence power could only be reduced by intermittently cutting the ignition using a "blip" switch. This was almost literally true of the "Monosoupape" (single valve) type, which took most of the air into the cylinder through the exhaust valve, which remained open for a portion of the downstroke of the piston. Thus the richness of the mixture in the cylinder could not be controlled via the crankcase intake. The "throttle" (fuel valve) of a monosoupape provided only a very limited degree of speed regulation, as opening it made the mixture too rich, while closing it made it too lean (in either case quickly stalling the engine, or damaging the cylinders). Early models featured a pioneering form of variable valve timing in an attempt to give greater control, but this caused the valves to burn and therefore it was abandoned.[5]
The only way of running a Monosoupape engine smoothly at reduced revs was with a switch that changed the normal firing sequence so that each cylinder fired only once per two or three engine revolutions, but the engine remained more or less in balance.[6] As with excessive use of the "blip" switch: running the engine on such a setting for too long resulted in large quantities of unburned fuel and oil in the exhaust, and gathering in the lower cowling, where it was a notorious fire hazard.
"Normal" rotaries
Most rotaries however, had normal inlet valves, so that the fuel (and lubricating oil) was taken into the cylinders already mixed with air - as in a normal four-stroke engine. Although a conventional carburetor, with the ability to keep the fuel/air ratio constant over a range of throttle openings, was precluded by the spinning crankcase; it was possible to adjust the air supply through a separate flap valve or "bloctube". The pilot needed to set the throttle to the desired setting (usually full open) and then adjust the fuel/air mixture to suit using a separate "fine adjustment" lever that controlled the air supply valve (in the manner of a manual choke control). Due to the rotary engine's large rotational inertia, it was possible to adjust the appropriate fuel/air mixture by trial and error without stalling it, although this varied between different types of engine, and in any case it required a good deal of practice to acquire the necessary knack. After starting the engine with a known setting that allowed it to idle, the air valve was opened until maximum engine speed was obtained.
Throttling a running engine back to reduce revs was possible by closing off the fuel valve to the required position while re-adjusting the fuel/air mixture to suit. This process was also tricky, so that throttling back, especially when landing, was often accomplished by intermittently cutting the ignition using the blip switch.
Cutting cylinders using ignition switches had the drawback of letting fuel continue to pass through the engine, oiling up the spark plugs and making smooth restarting problematic. Also, the raw oil-fuel mix could collect in the cowling. As this could cause a serious fire when the switch was released, it became common practice for part or all of the bottom of the basically circular cowling on most rotary engines to be cut away, or fitted with drainage slots.
By 1918 a Clerget handbook advised maintaining all necessary control by using the fuel and air controls, and starting and stopping the engine by turning the fuel on and off. The recommended landing procedure involved shutting off the fuel using the fuel lever, while leaving the blip switch on. The windmilling propeller made the engine continue to spin without delivering any power as the aircraft descended. It was important to leave the ignition on to allow the spark plugs to continue to spark and keep them from oiling up, so that the engine could (if all went well) be restarted simply by re-opening the fuel valve. Pilots were advised to not use an ignition cut out switch, as it would eventually damage the engine.[5]
Pilots of surviving or reproduction aircraft fitted with rotary engines still find, however, that the blip switch is useful while landing, as it provides a more reliable, quicker way to initiate power if needed, rather than risk a sudden engine stall, or the failure of a windmilling engine to restart at the worst possible moment.
CPU = i9 11900K GPU = RTX 3080 Ti Monitor = ASUS ROG Swift PG32UQX 2160p G-sync
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#4322919 - 12/24/16 08:41 AM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (WIP)
[Re: OldHat]
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Posts: 1,352
lederhosen
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lederhosen, I almost fell off my chair laughing. That's good feedback, so, I've narrowed the spread slightly in the newer version and I hope you would consider trying it and letting me know.
PR, one other use of mixture is to cut the engine during a dive as it was done in RL... and not with blip switch. link...can't seem to find it
make mistakes and learn from them
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#4322927 - 12/24/16 09:29 AM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (WIP)
[Re: OldHat]
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Joined: Jun 2014
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OldHat
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It should be the same as the one in the OP. I changed the file link there. I hope the link isn't broken.
Did you try to click on the word "file" under the install topic?
Last edited by OldHat; 12/24/16 09:30 AM.
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#4322981 - 12/24/16 01:42 PM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (WIP)
[Re: OldHat]
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Panama Red
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OldHat: Looks like you have your work cut out for you getting this mod correct, especially since there are at least 3 types of aircraft engines in the game, In-line, Monosoupape Rotaries and "Normal" Rotaries.
CPU = i9 11900K GPU = RTX 3080 Ti Monitor = ASUS ROG Swift PG32UQX 2160p G-sync
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#4327695 - 01/10/17 08:21 PM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (Beta)
[Re: OldHat]
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HarryH
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[size:12pt]
I am a firm believer that "Most combats were conducted at full engine speed with no thought of slowing down. Air fuel mixtures were often used in an attempt to conserve fuel in route to a target/mission objective. My guess for dogfights is that full power was always used. 'High energy' manoeuvers require airspeed. Also makes you harder to hit." - source:theaerodrome.com
This is great work, OldHat. I will have a chance to test this later today. One lingering concern for me is this issue of full throttle in combat. Especially with the Bristol Scout, which I've been flying a lot recently, I find that maintaining full engine speed combat is detrimental to success! This is because any attempt at a tight turn has the nose lifting dramatically, resulting in the craft stalling and falling away to the opposite side of the turn. However, with just a little leaning of the mixture the craft becomes much more maneuverable. In a dive, you have to lean out the mixture, as you have already mentioned, to avoid excessive speeds damaging the machine. Therefore I'm inclined to tinker with the mixture during combat, even if it's not historically accurate H H
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#4336785 - 02/13/17 05:16 AM
Re: Inclusive HardCore MOD (Beta)
[Re: OldHat]
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Posts: 1,595
OldHat
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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