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#4318005 - 12/07/16 11:32 AM
I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 170
RyanE
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 170
Maine
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As I posted on another forum...
My luggage was lost on a trip back from China two weeks ago. I have been told I will get $100 in compensation. But also in the luggage was my SB Pro dongle. So, since I ran a software company a few years ago that used a dongle for its $5000 HMI software, I figured it would be a $20-$25 fee to get a replacement. esims would then just kill the old dongle's configuration. That is what we did at my old company.
So I email esims and guess what; I was told I have to purchase the entire game again at $125. I have been a customer of esims since 1.x SB. In fact I bought SB 1.0 on CD twice so I could have it on two separate machines. I figure I have put $300 into esims over the years, at a minimum. So that is what you get for trusting any company to help a customer out.
There is a whole mix of customer service issues and technical issues to this story. The main one is that esims has no way to kill a dongle, I am assuming. Otherwise, what's the harm in killing mine and selling me a new dongle. If that is the case, we have yet another small company using a DRM system they themselves can't control.
esims only "solution" to my issue is the $40/yr time-based license. But, frankly, looking at the bugs and issues they have had, I think I'll just give up on SB. It pains me to say that, but I am just pissed about it.
btw, I'll get most of my compensation on my luggage from my company. But they won't pay for entertainment or personal technology items.
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#4318142 - 12/07/16 07:20 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: RyanE]
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Ssnake
Virtual Shiva Beast
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Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Germoney
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I wrote to you that blacklisting a CM stick (you asked for it) MIGHT actually work. I gave you my reasons why I'm skeptical about it, but hey, since we just did it we may just as well wait a little and see if we're lucky. You know, it might happen. Also, I told you that even then the cost of replacement is very close to the cost of a one-year license. Which begs the question whether the CM stick is the best option if you travel a lot. Tying the license to the computer might make it more safe against losses. I understand that this could be read as a cheap attempt to take advantage of your situation and to force another sale. That wasn't my intent, I tried to be pragmatic about the fact that even if we fully complied with the way how you suggested that we should handle the situation, it would cost you about just as much. But from your latest emails I get the impression that you aren't so much interested in a solution anymore. So, for the record, here are the facts: - The airline you traveled with lost your suitcase. In it was the CM stick.
- The airline doesn't offer adequate compensation, which sucks. But it is the airline who is at fault here - eSim Games neither flies the plane, nor handles the baggage, hasn't set up the inadequate rules for reimbursement with lost baggage; eSim Games did not recommend to put the CM stick into the suitcase (I carry mine in my pocket or other carry-on baggage, because it's light, and small).
eSim Games is neither directly responsible for your loss, nor indirectly.
If you lose your cell phone, you don't expect the phone manufacturer to give you a new one free of charge just because you have a phone number. - Your employer doesn't offer a compensation, which is bad. I'm waiting to see you accuse both the airline and your employer to be as evil as we are, apparently. But at this point I won't hold my breath for it.
- I might also ask if you have no other form of loss insurance that might cover it; but debating that would be besides the point: Someone else caused damage to your property. That sucks. He's unwilling to compensate for it. Which sucks even more. And yet you are seeking compensation from eSim Games who had nothing to do with the whole case, except that we happen to have sold the item to you.
Any claim of loss, by definition, cannot be verified (if you could point to where the item is, it wouldn't be lost in the first place). Consequently we have the choice of adopting one of the following policies: - We hand out licenses and sticks without looking at the circumstances.
- We offer free replacement for technical failures (check), we replace CM sticks that were damaged by the user - if for a fee (check); in short, we offer a substitute for any claim that can be verified.
- We offer replacement on a case-by-case basis, depending on how plausible a case sounds. In other words, we'd be totally arbitrary and hand over free licenses to the better story tellers
The first option would beg the question as to why to have some form of license management at all. The last option doesn't sound very fair to me. Not everybody whose story sounds implausible is a liar, and not every plausible story is true. Rewarding good storytellers is something that the literature market should do. So, we chose envelope number 2. It is a cold policy, yes, but it is just, because it looks at only one single criterium: Can the case be verified?Now, blacklisting a CM stick opens up the possibility that a loss claim COULD be verified. It depends on a certain chain of events that must happen, but there is at least a chance that the "arrest warrant" will register the reported stick, and locks it down. That lock-down event would be the verification that is required. At that point we'd be happy to offer replacement. After I explained all this to you you told me that it was all BS, and that you're going to tell the internet about it. All right, here we are, laying bare. The facts are on the table. You wanted us to bear the burden that others put on you, and made thinly veiled threats to start a campaign against us because we refuse to take responsibilities for actions made by you and others.
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#4318186 - 12/07/16 09:38 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: RyanE]
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 170
RyanE
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 170
Maine
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I think anyone following this might be better served to see it here... http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?board=5.0btw, what choice did I have in going public. Can you tell me exactly where you said you could be flexible. I started this campaign to get you to rethink your position on it and you have doubled down. You have lost nothing. I, on the other hand, am out the $200 or I have invested in esims over the last three years. Do you want to post the emails to me where you are "flexible". I must have missed them. Otherwise, mine are going up.
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#4318202 - 12/07/16 10:19 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: RyanE]
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
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I wonder if you're going after the airline with such energy as well? If you complain about eSim's rules and your loyalty to SB, did you make the same pitch to the airline regarding their rules and how many times you've flown with them?
While I see your point, Ssnake is correct --- they did not lose the dongle, the product is not defective, so how is this their fault? Suxx to be in your situation, yes, totally, but that's not eSim's fault.
Another point you seem to be missing --- you can buy a replacement dongle, but considering their upgrade cycle and how much they charge for the upgrade, won't buying a yearly license be a cost-neutral option?
- Ice
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#4318216 - 12/07/16 11:16 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: RyanE]
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Ssnake
Virtual Shiva Beast
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Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Germoney
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btw, what choice did I have in going public. Every, at any point. Can you tell me exactly where you said you could be flexible. When I replied to your request to blacklist the CM stick. I wrote that I was skeptical about the chances, but that in order to work at all we'd have to wait and see. That may not have been the signal that you were looking for, that I simply accommodate your request to a replacement, and to that extent I have, in fact, not shown much flexibility. But I admitted that, despite my skepticism, it would be worth a try to see if the stick connects to the server and gets remotely disabled. You have lost nothing. I, on the other hand, am out the $200 or I have invested in esims over the last three years. ...and you have gotten three years worth of entertainment out of it. Look, I'm trying to be reasonable here. I understand that your situation sucks. I recognize that my attempt to be pragmatic in switching over to a time-based license without a CM stick may have been understood way differently than it was intended. But you went ballistic the moment that I mentioned it, so I saw little merit in exploring that option any further. If you want to make the emails public, I can't stop you. It won't be a stellar moment in the history of eSim Games, but I'll be damned if I cave in to what amounts at this point to a tactic of blackmail - particularly if you choose to negotiate in public. Irrespective of OUR dealing here, in difficult negotiations it is generally a terrible tactic to force the other party into a corner where the only choices left are public humiliation by unconditional surrender, or to face the prospect of a scorched earth campaign. You have nothing to lose by hearing out my proposal - in private. If you don't like it you can still go on with your flame war. Or you do so immediately, at which point my offer to make you an offer ends right here.
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#4318217 - 12/07/16 11:23 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: - Ice]
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
marko1231123
Member
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Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
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I wonder if you're going after the airline with such energy as well? If you complain about eSim's rules and your loyalty to SB, did you make the same pitch to the airline regarding their rules and how many times you've flown with them?
While I see your point, Ssnake is correct --- they did not lose the dongle, the product is not defective, so how is this their fault? Suxx to be in your situation, yes, totally, but that's not eSim's fault.
Another point you seem to be missing --- you can buy a replacement dongle, but considering their upgrade cycle and how much they charge for the upgrade, won't buying a yearly license be a cost-neutral option? +1 This whole situation sounds very dubious to me. You are obviously trying to smear Esim/Ssnake because you did not get the result you wanted. I have corresponded with Ssnake via the SB forum for years and always found him to be a reasonable guy. Even though with have agreed to disagree on a number of issues.
Last edited by marko1231123; 12/07/16 11:36 PM.
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#4318247 - 12/08/16 01:42 AM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: RyanE]
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 170
RyanE
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 170
Maine
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I don't considering smearing when a true situation develops. So because I had a bad situation and you had a good one, I can't post what happened. If you think its dubious, have Ssnake tell me I am lying right here. Just because you have a good experience doesn't mean my experience is invalid.
Last edited by RyanE; 12/08/16 01:43 AM.
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#4318296 - 12/08/16 09:35 AM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: RyanE]
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Ssnake
Virtual Shiva Beast
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Virtual Shiva Beast
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 7,747
Germoney
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A lot of the trouble with the time-based licenses came from the coincidence with the wonderful Windows 10 "Anniversary Update" which rendered licenses temporarily invalid. The bug was identified and patched within two weeks, additional patches were necessary but were quickly delivered, and in all cases where the users did not try to fix things without our guidance, licenses could be repaired. In some cases we replaced themn even if impulsive users' actions rendered the situation beyond remedy.
I'm not happy about that episode either, but in the end, if the operating system chances key features, what can application developers do but to program around the new hurdles that were created by Microsoft, in this case. It is of course still a bad thing for the customer while the license is down, but in the end we managed to turn it around for everybody.
You reject the suggestion of using time based licenses based on a perceived image of these licenses. It is both understandable and wrong at the same time because in decisions like these, details matter a lot.
In any case, I'm not negotiating on a forum. If you want to hear me out, send me an email.
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#4318444 - 12/08/16 07:42 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: RyanE]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 12,334
Paul Morrison
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 12,334
Canada
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In the interests of tying a nice bow on this one, I'm going to provide the following as a free service to SimHQ (you're welcome).
I'm a lawyer, licensed to practice law in the Province of Ontario, Canada. I've been an TA in the area of contract law at a highly regarded Canadian law school. I've researched and helped write several books dealing with specific forms of contracts, and I'm now in private practice in which about 90% of my work involves, in one way or another, contract law. I do consumer protection and contract law litigation, amongst other work. US contract law, while having its own particular legal twists on a state by state basis, is derived from the common law, which is also the basis of Canadian contract law. So, to the extent I'm about to provide an opinion on the outcome of your dispute, should you choose to litigate it, my opinion is based on Canadian law, which, while similar is not identical to US law.
All that said, this is what I think:
Ryan, your beef is really with your airline.
You purchased a license to use a piece of software and a hardware dongle. The dongle was delivered to you and apparently worked as advertised prior to being lost. Title to the goods passes at a time no later than delivery, which means that liability for loss or damage to those goods passes at that time as well. Basically, it would be like buying a car, smashing it after you leave the dealer, and then trying to return it.
From a legal perspective, E-sims *COULD* give you another one, if they wanted. But that's up to them, and them doing so would be a gift. There is no legal requirement to give a gift. Absent a specific contractual clause which obligates e-sims to replace a dongle after loss or damage, there is no obligation for them to do so.
However, I do have some good news. Generally speaking, airlines engaged in international flights (which includes domestic connecting flights) are bound by the Montreal Convention. Per the Montreal convention, the limitation on lost baggage is 1000 SDR. SDR is an International Monetary Fund unit designed to provide a cross-currency calculation. Currently, 1000 SDR = $1361.03 USD. So, if you lost luggage on the way to or from China, you're entitled to the actual depreciated value of your items, up to a maximum of $1361.03 (or whatever the SDR value was on the date of loss).
The upshot is, the airline should be paying for a new dongle, because they lost it, and their $100 max lost amount is bogus under the Montreal Convention.
I hope this helps, have a nice day.
The word "Martyr" is just a fancy name for "crappy fighter".
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#4318471 - 12/08/16 08:53 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: RyanE]
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
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I don't considering smearing when a true situation develops. So because I had a bad situation and you had a good one, I can't post what happened. If you think its dubious, have Ssnake tell me I am lying right here. Just because you have a good experience doesn't mean my experience is invalid. No, your experience is valid. Your reasons to justify your demands aren't. I am in no way blaming esims for losing my luggage. So why are you here? I'm confused. But the response to a long-time customer in a bind is spend another $125 with us. Were you really planning on NOT spending any more money on eSims? My main point for posting is if you want to play SP, you better guard your dongle or esims will want their next pound of flesh. The point is -- airlines lose luggage all the time. If you didn't want to lose it, maybe you should've placed the dongle elsewhere. Either way, not eSim's fault. So I still don't see why you're trying to twist their arm over this one. As to my luggage, my corporate travel VP managed to get United to up the comp to $300. My company is paying another $200. Maybe you should get your VP to talk to eSims. All you seem to be interested in is whining here on the forums. I am still out a dongle and a game. And I am out a healthy amount of respect for how esims treats its gaming customers. All for a net of $50 for esims. You spent $200 which provided you over 3 years of entertainment. That's $66 per year. Ssnake was asking you if a $40 per year time-based license would not be a better option. I don't see how his suggestion was NOT a better deal. $66 per year vs. $40 per year.
- Ice
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#4318502 - 12/08/16 09:54 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: Magnum]
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,188
Gunnyhighway
Move, Strike, Protect
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Move, Strike, Protect
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,188
San Diego, CA
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glad I don't run this place anymore.. this thread would be gone with a PM to the 2 parties to take it to PM.  That is a prejudice move. This is a public forum. We the people could learn from those exchanges. Nothing should be debated in private if it was started in public. No wonder we missed so many issues a while back!...lol! 
Fluctuat Nec Mergitur
This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
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#4318516 - 12/08/16 10:26 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: Paul Morrison]
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
marko1231123
Member
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Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
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In the interests of tying a nice bow on this one, I'm going to provide the following as a free service to SimHQ (you're welcome).
I'm a lawyer, licensed to practice law in the Province of Ontario, Canada. I've been an TA in the area of contract law at a highly regarded Canadian law school. I've researched and helped write several books dealing with specific forms of contracts, and I'm now in private practice in which about 90% of my work involves, in one way or another, contract law. I do consumer protection and contract law litigation, amongst other work. US contract law, while having its own particular legal twists on a state by state basis, is derived from the common law, which is also the basis of Canadian contract law. So, to the extent I'm about to provide an opinion on the outcome of your dispute, should you choose to litigate it, my opinion is based on Canadian law, which, while similar is not identical to US law.
All that said, this is what I think:
Ryan, your beef is really with your airline.
You purchased a license to use a piece of software and a hardware dongle. The dongle was delivered to you and apparently worked as advertised prior to being lost. Title to the goods passes at a time no later than delivery, which means that liability for loss or damage to those goods passes at that time as well. Basically, it would be like buying a car, smashing it after you leave the dealer, and then trying to return it.
From a legal perspective, E-sims *COULD* give you another one, if they wanted. But that's up to them, and them doing so would be a gift. There is no legal requirement to give a gift. Absent a specific contractual clause which obligates e-sims to replace a dongle after loss or damage, there is no obligation for them to do so.
However, I do have some good news. Generally speaking, airlines engaged in international flights (which includes domestic connecting flights) are bound by the Montreal Convention. Per the Montreal convention, the limitation on lost baggage is 1000 SDR. SDR is an International Monetary Fund unit designed to provide a cross-currency calculation. Currently, 1000 SDR = $1361.03 USD. So, if you lost luggage on the way to or from China, you're entitled to the actual depreciated value of your items, up to a maximum of $1361.03 (or whatever the SDR value was on the date of loss).
The upshot is, the airline should be paying for a new dongle, because they lost it, and their $100 max lost amount is bogus under the Montreal Convention.
I hope this helps, have a nice day. I hope somebody can cut and paste Paul Morrison post and re-post it over on the grogHeads forum. Whats being posted there is nothing less then a character assassination of Ssnake and SB in general and IMO is totally unfair. The customer service provided by esim is second to none. Being a total numbty when it comes to software i have posted many times on the SB forum looking for assistance i always get a speedy and helpful Response. Mostly from Ssanke himself. As for the time based licence option i have been using this for a while now and it has worked very well. I only had one issue that was not esims fault it had to do with a windows update and was dealt with quickly. I am not a fan of the dongle either but i fully understand why esim have implemented it. How would you like to spend years a tens if not hundreds of thousands only to see your product pirated and sold for a few euro on line. Or given for free. RyanE You may call me a loyalist or fanboy and this is correct to a degree i am loyal to SB and the community there. But have voiced my opinion many times on the SB forum and have clashed with Ssanke on a few issues but i always have had a healthy respect for The Way he conducts business.
Last edited by marko1231123; 12/08/16 10:31 PM.
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#4320412 - 12/16/16 03:37 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: RyanE]
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 17
Tjay
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 17
UK
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I trust you are also asking the manufacturers of your shaver, alarm clock and other items to replace them free of charge. If so, good luck with it. Surely, it is an individual's responsibility to see that the contents of his/her luggage are adequately insured? And most people ensure that valuable items are either on their person or in their hand luggage.
C.O UK Armour
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#4320461 - 12/16/16 06:13 PM
Re: I would stay away from SB Pro dongles
[Re: Sturmtiger]
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
marko1231123
Member
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Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,857
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I would point out that RyanE fully expected to pay for the dongle.
Where his argument is, he was being told he would have to repurchase the entire game for $125.
That was because he couldn't prove the dongle was no longer in his possession.
The dongle is just thee DRM for the game, not the game.
So it would be like charging him for the full razor when all he needed was the charging cord. The point is Esim are in no way liable. RyanE has already admitted it was in no way there fault. The product was not faulty or the software defective. Had it been esim would have changed the product for free. Even if you damage your dongle through your own negligence They will exchange it for cost a service you would be lucky to find anywhere else. But they have a policy in place when it comes to dongles being lost. Basically RyanE is expecting them to ignore there procedures And open would could be a potential flood gate of similar claims. Basically the guy is looking for a freebie. did not get his way and stared a hate campaign What was posted over on the GrogHeads forum was disgraceful a good example of a pack mentality. Attacking a guy for simply following his company policy. To expect somebody to hand over 125 euro product for what say thirty euro, With out proving beyond any doubt, what RyanE says happened actually happened is just unreasonable and would make for bad business practice if Esim did so. PS I am not calling RyanE a lier or conman. But the unreasonable and unwarranted assault of Ssnakes integrity and SB as a whole were not. imo justified
Last edited by marko1231123; 12/16/16 06:26 PM.
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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